Intifada 3? Kidnapped Israeli citizens might be a flashpoint

[Ace Pace]

UNRWA finds more rockets in schools.

Just for kicks and elaboration, current news report is that the Hospital that was hit by the IAF had multiple secondary explosions indicating multiple weapon stashes. I'm not surprised in the least, nor is anyone who is semi-educated about the region.

[eyl]

Well, mostly I would be interested in what you said, the attitudes of Israeli society. My greatest fear is that the religious nutjobs will outshout/outbreed the others.

Given the limited amount of online English-language news services (at least from the major papers), I'd say ynetnews is your best bet; it's probably more representative of mainstream Israeli opinion than Haaretz anyway.

[eyl]

UNRWA finds more rockets in schools.

Just for kicks and elaboration, current news report is that the Hospital that was hit by the IAF had multiple secondary explosions indicating multiple weapon stashes. I'm not surprised in the least, nor is anyone who is semi-educated about the region.

If you look at the video, there's a segment at the beginning with what appear to be muzzle flashes grom the building.

[Ace Pace]

UNRWA finds more rockets in schools.

Just for kicks and elaboration, current news report is that the Hospital that was hit by the IAF had multiple secondary explosions indicating multiple weapon stashes. I'm not surprised in the least, nor is anyone who is semi-educated about the region.

If you look at the video, there's a segment at the beginning with what appear to be muzzle flashes grom the building.

Again, not surprised. I've been on multiple trips to the area where people point out guard posts erected on water towers, mosques and hospitals.

[Simon_Jester]

Meanwhile, the Israelis told civilians to take shelter in a specific building, then hit that specific building with a strike. Good going there.

That kind of sounds more like a massive screwup than a deliberate act of treachery. It wouldn't be the first time the Israeli military screwed up command and control issues and killed people.

On the other hand, I would also point out that if Hamas is willing to stick munitions caches in hospitals, they're surely also willing to fire on Israeli troops from a building that was supposed to be a safe evacuation center for their own people.

And being male and unarmed apparently now gets you shot by Israeli snipers. lnk.

Sheer vileness; snipers above all should be able to tell military from nonmilitary targets.

If one side wants to have the moral high ground then one side should not stoop to the level of the other, especially if it is completely unnecessary.

I think what it's come down to is that the Israelis are being shot at effectively enough by Hamas (i.e. Hamas does enough damage) that any question of restraint is simply not on Israeli minds. They're still being a lot less brutal than they could, because if they really wanted to they could simply wheel up every artillery piece in Israel and dump shells into the Gaza strip at maximum rate of fire to kill as many innocents as possible.

But they have long since ceased to respect absolute prohibitions about avoiding certain kinds of targets, because their experience has convinced them this is useless. If no one is surprised that Hamas continues to fight when it ceases to make sense to do so, no one should be surprised that Israel blows up hospitals it believe to be full of weapons.

[Beowulf]

Incidentally, hospitals full of weapons are not protected under the laws of armed conflict.

[Elheru Aran]

So... *a* big problem in IvP is Hamas itself (I'm quite aware there are a number of other primary reasons for the conflict)? Thanks to moves like using neutral buildings to store weapons, rocket attacks, suicide bombers, etc, and largely trying to kill Israelis on general principles?

Why have not the Palestinians tried to marginalize it in order to give themselves some more credibility with the Israelis? Or is it one of those fucked-up situations where they see Hamas as being their main reason for survival or what?

[Edi]

Simon, one of the problems is that Israel has never really shown much more than cosmetic interest in avoiding Palestinian civilian casualties. Israeli snipers or other soldiers killing Palestinian civilians for shits and giggles has been happening for decades and there is never any punishment. There is video from the late 1990s of an Israeli tank, in a non-combat situation, opening machine gun fire on a Palestinian bazaar without any provocation. No one was punished over that either. And it's by no means the only similar incident. Then there are the web pages where Israeli soldiers who speak about all the things they did to the Palestinians during their service or that they saw done.

That's why Israeli claims about restraint and the oral high ground ring inherently hollow. The American media however has never called Israel to account for any of its actions and adheres to the official Israeli propaganda narrative which since the previous Gaza operation has morphed into the form of "Show empathy, but then immediately turn around and blame everything on Hamas and absolve Israel of any responsibility". From American media, again and again, this is the only refrain you hear about Israel. British, French, German, Italian, Finnish, Swedish and most other foreign media do not suffer from being such subservient propagandists.

The actions of Hamas are not really excusable, but the constant apologism for Israel gets really tiring after a while.


Elheru, they tried that and it gained them nothing but more oppression. So why not try fighting?

[Elheru Aran]

It strikes me though that one of the big reasons that Israelis don't like Palestinians is that they identify Palestinians with Hamas. And with the constant aggression piled upon the Israelis by Hamas, they have no great love for the Palestinians as a result. If the Palestinians were able to divorce themselves of that identity, it might earn them some brownie points.

Of course the greater problem in general seems to be that nobody is really willing to make the Israeli government sit down and behave when it comes to respecting the Palestinians...

[eyl]

Well, mostly I would be interested in what you said, the attitudes of Israeli society. My greatest fear is that the religious nutjobs will outshout/outbreed the others.

This is actually a complex question, because when you say religious nutjobs, you're actually talking about 3-4 different groups who have often competing goals.

The first and most commonly known is the Haredi Jews. These have little to no interest in the conflict, or the nation and just want to live and pray and study Torah. Most of the country finds them despicable (As worse as Arabs in some cases) and it's a rather complex subject in the mainstream society.

The other, which I'm guessing you're referring to, is the Religious Zionist Rightwing Settlers. These are the "nutjobs" who go and cut down Arab olive trees and stuff like that. This group is indeed breeding fast and in many terms is the true "threat" to the peace initiatives, but in many cases they're actually decent citizens.

The third, which is frequently confused with the former, is the Religious Zionist Settlers. Where the main difference is that despite wanting the "Whole Israel" (without Jordan), they're on the whole, pretty rational about it and are willing to settle. These for example are the majority of the old Mafdal and other religious parties that nowdays make up an ignored segment of the Beit Yehudi (Jewish Home) party. They're also mostly very educated (highest proportion of degree holders IIRC) and are second generation immigrants from the West.

[Warning to the local readers, huge generalisation to follow]
The fourth and I consider the worst are the Masorati right wingers, who are basically the Israeli version of the American Redneck. Uneducated, quasi-religious (and mostly follow the populist Rabbis rather than the intelligent ones) and very much nationalist. This is the group driving around and beating up left wingers and chanting "Death to Arabs", not any of the prior groups.

At some level I made some generalisations but this is pretty much the current situation with the "right wing nutjobs" in Israel, where as usual, there are more sub trends than there are people.


Meanwhile I'll go back to looking outside my window to see interceptions.

I'm not sure why you're identifying the last group as Masorati; while many of the probably are, many of them are not, and there are plenty of Masoratim who aren't part of this group.

[madd0ct0r]

UNRWA finds more rockets in schools.

Just for kicks and elaboration, current news report is that the Hospital that was hit by the IAF had multiple secondary explosions indicating multiple weapon stashes. I'm not surprised in the least, nor is anyone who is semi-educated about the region.

without wading deep into the thread, I'd note hospitals tend to also have things like generators, compressed gas tanks and oxygen tanks, all of which could give you secondary explosions.

[eyl]

UNRWA finds more rockets in schools.

Just for kicks and elaboration, current news report is that the Hospital that was hit by the IAF had multiple secondary explosions indicating multiple weapon stashes. I'm not surprised in the least, nor is anyone who is semi-educated about the region.

without wading deep into the thread, I'd note hospitals tend to also have things like generators, compressed gas tanks and oxygen tanks, all of which could give you secondary explosions.

The video (the Hebrew one, the English-subtitled version was missing 13 seconds at the start for some reason) also showed muzzle flashes coming from the hospital

[Omeganian]

Of course the greater problem in general seems to be that nobody is really willing to make the Israeli government sit down and behave when it comes to respecting the Palestinians...

Really? I get the impression no one seems to be doing anything else...

[Simon_Jester]

Edi, I sincerely appreciate that you're willing to speak to me in a tone that shows something other than utter contempt for my opinions. I understand that Israel pisses you off, and frankly I think that's entirely fair because they do some pretty rotten and stupid stuff, and very little in the way of good or redeeming stuff.

Simon, one of the problems is that Israel has never really shown much more than cosmetic interest in avoiding Palestinian civilian casualties. Israeli snipers or other soldiers killing Palestinian civilians for shits and giggles has been happening for decades and there is never any punishment. There is video from the late 1990s of an Israeli tank, in a non-combat situation, opening machine gun fire on a Palestinian bazaar without any provocation. No one was punished over that either. And it's by no means the only similar incident. Then there are the web pages where Israeli soldiers who speak about all the things they did to the Palestinians during their service or that they saw done.

That's why Israeli claims about restraint and the oral high ground ring inherently hollow...

Eh. You are right, and I know you are right.

The Israeli military is among the less organized and disciplined ones in the world that are set up along 'Western' lines. They commit atrocities, they commit screwups, in no way does their nation have the moral high ground in this conflict. I do not wish to claim the moral high ground for Israel, frankly it belongs to the Palestinian civilians (as distinct from the Palestinian militants who don't deserve it either). The Israeli civilians, some of them, the ones that are NOT in the streets chanting "death to Arabs" and are NOT

The American media however has never called Israel to account for any of its actions and adheres to the official Israeli propaganda narrative which since the previous Gaza operation has morphed into the form of "Show empathy, but then immediately turn around and blame everything on Hamas and absolve Israel of any responsibility". From American media, again and again, this is the only refrain you hear about Israel. British, French, German, Italian, Finnish, Swedish and most other foreign media do not suffer from being such subservient propagandists.

Personally I'm a fan of trying to dump responsibility on everyone involved. The problem is that the question of who is responsible for a particular thing can be separate from the overall narrative in which responsibility is shared.

If an Israeli tank randomly fires machine guns over, under, alongside of, or heaven forbid into a crowd, that is SO incredibly, flagrantly their fault and Israeli soldiers involved should be punished and it speaks very ill of the Israeli military that they do not. As above, I characterize them as both poorly disciplined and atrocity-prone.

If the Israelis are getting shot at with missiles, and they try to bomb the launch site, and miss and blow up a restaurant instead... do we call that an Israeli atrocity? Some newspapers might, but I would argue that to say this is ignorant of military realities and the laws of war.

There is a reason why the laws of war specify that militaries are supposed to wear uniforms and separate themselves from civilian populations. Because militaries do dangerous things, like pick fights with people who have machine guns and artillery. And if they don't make an effort to stand apart from civilians, the civilians will get caught in the crossfire.

The actions of Hamas are not really excusable, but the constant apologism for Israel gets really tiring after a while.

Well yes, although I think frankly I can turn this around. Many of Israel's actions are not really excusable. They are undisciplined, atrocity-prone troops and their nation has basically given up on seeking any peace other than that of conquest.

But it disgusts me to see people engage in apologetics for Hamas when Hamas is actively pissing all over the laws of war, not even keeping up a pretense of following them. And when they are willfully acting to keep a pointless conflict going, one that cannot possibly serve the interests of their own people, who they claim to be leading.

Do they have comprehensible motives? Yes. Does that make them someone worthy of apologia? No.

The problem is that, because of the way the human brain works, it's very hard to criticize Israel only for the things they deserve to be criticized for, and Hamas only for the things they deserve to be criticized for. Especially because doing so can make others think you're trying to apologize for Side A by blaming Incident B on their enemies.

[Thanas]

^I don't think anyone here would disagree with that summary.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, earlier in this thread, I started off by disagreeing with someone who was lionizing Hamas for 'standing up to oppression' (a paraphrase) by prosecuting an unnecessary war against Israel, one that realistically brings only suffering to their people.

And then I got called a smarmy asshole by someone who felt that the peace process was already destroyed, more or less unilaterally by Israeli actions, long before the Israeli evacuation of the Gaza Strip. So essentially I found myself accused of deliberately framing the debate in terms favorable to Israel, because I stopped and asked "well gee, if Hamas had wanted to further Palestinian interests starting in 2005-6, then maybe the smartest thing they could have done was to NOT launch attacks from Gaza..."

So while I may be mistaken, I do feel like some people in here would disagree with that summary at least some of the time. And that it's damn hard to weigh in on the Israel vs. Palestine debate without being mistaken for an A-side apologist by the supporters of side B.

[wautd]

What I find maddening to this conflict is that the short-sightedness of the Israeli politicians.

It was tought-provoking how the parents of the murdered Israeli/Palestinian teens called each other to find comfort. Sadly, instead of taking an example, Israels response was to launch a punishment expedition with such disproportionate violence it has already caused the deaths of hundreds civilians (I wouldn't call it a war since Hamas attacks are so inefficient they are almost symbolic). Is there still some political opposition left in Israel to point out this doesn't solve anything? Do they even have an endgame in Gaza?

The only winners are probably Hamas. If living in a economical dead ghetto isn't enough to help radicalize people, they'll now have a whole new generation of traumatized children to recruit from.

(yes, and I know Hamas is as much to blame in keeping the conflict ongoing. But if someone threatens you with a knife you shouldn't bomb the city block he's living in)

[eyl]

What I find maddening to this conflict is that the short-sightedness of the Israeli politicians.

It was tought-provoking how the parents of the murdered Israeli/Palestinian teens called each other to find comfort. Sadly, instead of taking an example, Israels response was to launch a punishment expedition with such disproportionate violence it has already caused the deaths of hundreds civilians (I wouldn't call it a war since Hamas attacks are so inefficient they are almost symbolic). Is there still some political opposition left in Israel to point out this doesn't solve anything? Do they even have an endgame in Gaza?

The only winners are probably Hamas. If living in a economical dead ghetto isn't enough to help radicalize people, they'll now have a whole new generation of traumatized children to recruit from.

(yes, and I know Hamas is as much to blame in keeping the conflict ongoing. But if someone threatens you with a knife you shouldn't bomb the city block he's living in)

Your skipping a few steps. Israel began the operation in Gaza because of the intensification of rocket fire throughout June, especially after the kidnapping.

[Omeganian]

What I find maddening to this conflict is that the short-sightedness of the Israeli politicians.

Short-sightedness would have been not realizing that inaction is political suicide, bordering on a physical one.

instead of taking an example, Israels response was to launch a punishment expedition with such disproportionate violence it has already caused the deaths of hundreds civilians (I wouldn't call it a war since Hamas attacks are so inefficient they are almost symbolic).

What have you been smoking? Israel went in response to bombardments, in order to stop them. How is that punishment?

Is there still some political opposition left in Israel to point out this doesn't solve anything?

It's everything else that doesn't. Israeli people don't live according to your childish idealistic delusions, you see. We live in a state where the bombardments are reality (assuming you ever heard the word), and where land operations stop them.

The only winners are probably Hamas. If living in a economical dead ghetto isn't enough to help radicalize people, they'll now have a whole new generation of traumatized children to recruit from.

Except they are going to confront the generation their rockets are raising on the other side. I don't think this will be pretty.

yes, and I know Hamas is as much to blame in keeping the conflict ongoing. But if someone threatens you with a knife you shouldn't bomb the city block he's living in)

When all Hamas does is threaten, Israel doesn't bomb the cities. It normally takes multiple murder attempts with area effect weapons.

[eyl]

Your skipping a few steps. Israel began the operation in Gaza because of the intensification of rocket fire throughout June, especially after the kidnapping.

Mind, I'm still skipping a lot as well, but the point is that the current operation is not a direct result of the kidnappings.

[Omeganian]

A ceasefire is supposed to begin in 20 minutes. Don't know if it will be carried through, but from here, it sounds like someone is trying to expend all the ammo by then.

[Thanas]

So it turns out Hamas was not responsible for the Israelis captured.

When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.

But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all.

[...]All the illegal and immoral actions related to Operation Brother’s Keeper were justified under the premise of finding and saving the missing teens whom the Israeli government knew to be dead — cynically exploiting the tragedy to whip up public outcry in order to provoke and then confront Hamas. This pattern of deception continues under the ongoing military offensive in Gaza. For example, last week in collaboration with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah El Sisi and Abbas, in its efforts to alienate Hamas, Israel announced a bad-faith cease-fire proposal, which Hamas was not consulted on and never agreed to but whose violation supposedly justified Israel’s expansion and intensification of the military campaign into Gaza.

[The Grim Squeaker]

So it turns out Hamas was not responsible for the Israelis captured.

When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.

But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all.

[...]All the illegal and immoral actions related to Operation Brother’s Keeper were justified under the premise of finding and saving the missing teens whom the Israeli government knew to be dead — cynically exploiting the tragedy to whip up public outcry in order to provoke and then confront Hamas. This pattern of deception continues under the ongoing military offensive in Gaza.

This would be really meaningful, if the kidnappings were the reason, motive, cause, ; Casus belli for the current campaign. (As opposed to, you know, the constant missile attacks).

For example, last week in collaboration with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah El Sisi and Abbas, in its efforts to alienate Hamas, Israel announced a bad-faith cease-fire proposal, which Hamas was not consulted on and never agreed to but whose violation supposedly justified Israel’s expansion and intensification of the military campaign into Gaza.

Would you mind posting a source on that?
(I tried googling it, but "Hamas breaks ceasefire" has rather too many results to filter without knowing the exact source).

[Thanas]

The source is the link I gave as all of that are quotes from the article and gives further links.

[Omeganian]

A source for the officials admitting would also be useful.