The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Edi »

Murazor wrote: 2017-10-05 06:31am
Edi wrote: 2017-10-05 06:08amAND the current party in power is Franco's old party
No.

Franco's old party is Falange Tradicionalista y de las JONS, which is still around and got all of 15,000 votes in the last general elections. Now, PP descends from AP, which was founded by former Franco ministers, but in all formal aspects it is a christian-democrat conservative party, albeit one plagued by corrupt idiots of authoritarian inclinations. It is not a political formation I support in the slightest, but Franco would loathe it.

So I think that that needs saying.
There is nothing to stop Spain from adopting a more federal approach rather than a tightly Castilian controlled central government in Madrid telling everyone what to do. Which is apparently not something the current party in power wants.
I am going to ask you a question that I've been asking a lot lately, Edi. How much would you say you know about internal Spanish politics and the administrative organization of the Spanish state?
Thank you for the correction. I've been reading up on the recent events and I've seen secondhand commentary that has been, I think, broadly correct, but probably lacking a lot of detailed knowledge. If I'm off base, I'll be happy to defer to those who have a better grasp of the situation. You're from Spain, so if you tell me I'm wrong, I'll happily apologize, sit down and shut up. :)

Or is this a reference to the comment about central government, and there is more federalism than my comment implies? In any case, I'm always happy to learn more.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Murazor »

Edi wrote: 2017-10-05 07:34amThank you for the correction. I've been reading up on the recent events and I've seen secondhand commentary that has been, I think, broadly correct, but probably lacking a lot of detailed knowledge. If I'm off base, I'll be happy to defer to those who have a better grasp of the situation. You're from Spain, so if you tell me I'm wrong, I'll happily apologize, sit down and shut up. :)

Or is this a reference to the comment about central government, and there is more federalism than my comment implies? In any case, I'm always happy to learn more.
The second.

Spain is very decentralized.

The government of Catalonia, specifically, is second only to the Basque country in terms of self-rule and the main difference between both is that the Basque country has a tax system independent of the national one, because of some historical privileges retained thanks to a late full integration into Spain that didn't happen until after a nasty series of civil wars in the 19th century.

Spoiled below you can read a list of powers and attributions granted to Catalonia by the first autonomy statute it was granted by the modern spanish democracy, the 1979 Statute of Sau, which I am told is a moderately respectable amount of power for a regional government to wield (I have had someone compare it directly with the powers of a german lander, although I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this comparison).
Article 9
The Government of Catalonia has exclusive powers over the following matters:

Organisation of its self-government institutions, within the framework of this Statute.
The preservation, amendment and development of Catalan civil law.
Procedural and administrative rules deriving from the particular features of the substantive law of Catalonia or the special features of the organisation of the Catalan government.
Culture.
Historical, artistic, monumental, architectural, archaeological and scientific heritage, without prejudice to the provisions of point 28 of part 1 of article 149 of the Constitution.
Archives, libraries, museums, newspaper libraries and other centres for the storage of cultural goods which do not belong to the Spanish state. Musical conservatories and fine arts services of interest to the Autonomous Community.
Research, without prejudice to the provisions of point 15 of part 1 of article 149 of the Constitution. Academies whose headquarters are in Catalonia.
The local government system, without prejudice to the provisions of point 1 of part 1 of article 149 of the Constitution. Alterations of municipal boundaries, the official names of municipalities and place names.
Town and country planning, coastal planning, urban development and housing.
Mountains, forestry and forest services, livestock tracks and pastures, protected natural areas and special treatment for mountain areas, in accordance with the provisions of point 23 of part 1 of article 149 of the Constitution.
Health, taking into account the provisions of article 17 of this Statute.
Tourism.
Public works not legally classified as of general interest to the Spanish State and which do not affect another autonomous community.
Highways and paths whose route runs entirely through the territory of Catalonia.
Railways and transport by land, sea, river and cable; ports, heliports, airports and the Meteorological Service of Catalonia, without prejudice to the provisions of points 20 and 21 of part 1 of article 149 of the Constitution. Transport booking centres and loading terminals.
Use of water, canals and irrigation channels when the water runs entirely within Catalonia; Facilities for producing, distributing and transporting energy when such transport does not leave the territory of Catalonia and its use does not affect another province or autonomous community; mineral, spa and underground water. All this without prejudice to the provisions of point 25 of part 1 of article 149 of the Constitution.
Fishing in inland waters, the breeding and collection of shellfish, fish farming, hunting and river and lake fishing.
Crafts.
Organisation of pharmaceuticals, without prejudice to the provisions of point 16 of part 1 of article 149 of the Constitution.
Establishment and organisation of centres for buying and selling goods and securities, in accordance with commercial legislation.
Co-operatives, maritime corporations and mutuals not integrated into the Social Security system, respecting commercial legislation.
Chambers of Property, Chambers of Commerce, Industry and Shipping, without prejudice to the provisions of point 10 of part 1 of article 149 of the Constitution.
Professional organisations and the exercise of qualified professions, without prejudice to the provisions of articles 36 and 139 of the Constitution.
Foundations and associations involved with teaching, culture, art, benefits and care, and others that principally exercise their functions in Catalonia.
Social care.
Young people.
Promotion of women.
Public institutions for protecting and supervising children, respecting, in all cases, civil, criminal and penitentiary legislation..
Sport and leisure.
Advertising, without prejudice to the regulations established by the Spanish government for specific sectors and media.
Shows.
Casinos, gaming and betting, except for mutual gambling for sports benefit purposes.
Statistics of interest to the Catalan government.
Other matters expressly attributed in this Statute as being exclusive powers and those which, with this nature and by means of Act of Parliament, are transferred by the Spanish government in future.

Article 10

Within the framework of basic Spanish legislation and as appropriate, under the terms established by the relevant legislation, it will be the duty of the Catalan government to develop and enforce legislation on the following matters:
The legal system and system of responsibility of the administration of the Catalan government and the public bodies for which it is responsible, as well as the statutory system governing their civil servants.
Compulsory expropriation, contracts and administrative concessions within the powers of the Government of Catalonia.
The public sector reserve of essential resources and services, especially in the case of monopoly, and action to intervene in companies when this is in the public interest.
The organisation of credit, banking and insurance.
The system covering mining and energy.
Environmental protection, without prejudice to the powers of the Government of Catalonia to establish additional protection regulations.
Organisation of the fishing sector.
It is the task of the Government of Catalonia to provide legislative development of the system of Public Municipal Queries in Catalonia in accordance with the provisions of the laws referred to in part 3 of article 92 and point 18 of part 1 of article 149 of the Constitution. Authorisation of their establishment corresponds to the Spanish government.

Article 11
It is the task of the Government of Catalonia to enforce Spanish legislation on the following matters:

Penitentiary institutions.
Employment, taking on the powers, competences and services currently corresponding to the Spanish government in this area in terms of enforcement with respect to labour relations, without prejudice to inspection at a higher level. All powers concerning internal migration and immigration and national and employment records are reserved to the Spanish government, without prejudice to the provisions of Spanish government regulations on these matters.
Intellectual and industrial property.
The appointment of exchange agents, stock exchange agents and brokers. Intervention, as appropriate, in establishing the corresponding demarcations. Intervenció, si s'escau, en la delimitació de les demarcacions corresponents. Pesos i mesures.
Weights and measures.
Assay of metals.
International trade fairs held in Catalonia.
Ports and airports classified as of public interest whose operation is not reserved to the Spanish government.
Organisation of the transport of goods and passengers whose origin and destination is within the Autonomous Community's territory even though they may run on State-owned structures referred to in point 21 of part 1 of article 149 of the Constitution, without prejudice to direct operation reserved to the Spanish government.
Maritime salvage and industrial and pollution spills in Spanish territorial waters corresponding to the Catalan coast.
Other matters expressly attributed in this Statute as involving enforcement powers and those of this kind transferred by the Spanish government by Act of Parliament.

Article 12

In accordance with the rules for organising general economic activity and Spanish government monetary policy, the Government of Catalonia, within the terms of the provisions of articles 38, 131 and points 11 and 13 of part 1 of article 149 of the Constitution, has exclusive powers over the following matters:
Planning economic activity in Catalonia.
Industry, without prejudice to the provisions of Spanish regulations covering health, safety or military interest, and regulations related to industries subject to legislation covering mining, hydrocarbons and nuclear energy. Exclusive powers concerning technology transfer abroad are reserved to the Spanish Government.
The development and enforcement in Catalonia of plans established by the Spanish government for restructuring industrial sectors.
Agriculture and livestock.
Internal trade, consumer and user protection, without prejudice to the general prices policy and legislation protecting competition. Denominations of origin, in co-operation with the Spanish government.
Corporate, public and territorial credit institutions and savings banks.
The public economic sector belonging to the Government of Catalonia concerning everything not dealt with in other regulations in this Statute.
The Government of Catalonia will also take part in the management of the Spanish economic public sector in the appropriate cases and activities.

Article 13

The Government of Catalonia may create an Autonomous Police Force within the framework of this Statute and, concerning matters not specifically regulated here, within the Act of Parliament provided for in article 149, 1, 29 of the Constitution.
The Autonomous Police Force of the Government of Catalonia will carry out the following functions:
The protection of people and property and the maintenance of public order.
Surveillance and protection of the buildings and facilities of the Government of Catalonia.
The other functions provided for in the Act of Parliament referred to in part 1 of this article.
The supreme command of the Autonomous Police Force and the co-ordination of the actions of local police forces correspond to the Government of Catalonia.
In all cases, police services outside the Community and involving more than one Community are reserved to the State Security Forces under the control of the Spanish Government, including surveillance at ports, airports and on coasts and borders, customs, control of entry and exit from national territory of Spanish and foreign citizens, the general system governing foreigners, extradition and expulsion, emigration and immigration, passports, national identity documents, traffic of arms and explosives, the fiscal protection of the State, contraband and fiscal fraud and the other functions they are directly charged with in article 104 of the Constitution and those attributed to them by the Act of Parliament developing this article.
The Criminal Investigation Department and the bodies who act with this function will be under the control of the judges, the courts and the Public Prosecution Service for the functions specified in article 126 of the Constitution and under the terms of the law covering legal proceedings.
The Security Committee is established, made up of an equal number of representatives of the Spanish and Catalan governments, with the mission of co-ordinating the action of the police force of the Government of Catalonia and the State security forces.
The Security Committee will determine the Statute, regulations, powers, numerical composition, structure and recruitment of the police force of the Government of Catalonia, its commanders being appointed from the chiefs and officers of the armed forces and the State security forces who, while they are serving in the police force of the Government of Catalonia, will be in the administrative position provided for in the Act of Parliament referred to in part 1 of this article or determined by the Spanish government. In this situation, they will be outside military jurisdiction. Firearms licences will always correspond to the Spanish government.

Article 14

In using the powers and exercising the competences attributed to it by the Constitution, the Spanish Government will assume the running of all services included in the foregoing article and the State security forces may intervene in functions attributed to the police force of the Government of Catalonia in the following cases:
When so required by the Government of Catalonia. Such intervention will cease when it so requests.
On their own initiative, when they consider the interests of the State to be seriously compromised, and with the approval of the Security Committee. In particular emergency circumstances, State security forces may intervene under the sole responsibility of the Spanish Government, which will be accountable for this to the Spanish Parliament. The Spanish Parliament, through constitutional procedures, may exercise the powers that correspond to it.
In the case of declaration of a state of alarm, emergency or siege, all police forces and bodies will remain under the direct orders of the corresponding civil or military authority, as appropriate, in accordance with the legislation governing these matters.

Article 15
The Government of Catalonia has full powers to regulate and administer education throughout its territory, at all levels and degrees and in all forms and specialities, within its powers, without prejudice to the provisions of article 27 of the Constitution and the Acts of Parliament developed in accordance with part 1 of article 81 of this document, with the powers attributed to the Spanish government in point 30 of part 1 of article 149 of the Constitution and with the higher level inspection needed to ensure compliance with these.

Article 16

Within the framework of basic Spanish regulations, it is the task of the Government of Catalonia to develop and enforce laws covering the radio and television broadcasting system under the terms and cases established in the law governed by the Legal Statute of Radio and Television.
It is also its task, within the framework of basic Spanish regulations, to develop and enforce legislation regulating the Press and, in general, all social communications media.
Under the terms laid down in the foregoing items of this article, the Government of Catalonia may regulate, create and maintain its own television and radio stations and Press organs and, in general, all social means of communication for achieving its purposes.

Article 17

It is the task of the Government of Catalonia to develop legislation and to enforce basic Spanish legislation concerning health within its territory.
Concerning social security, it is the task of the Government of Catalonia:
To develop legislation and to enforce basic Spanish legislation, except for the regulations making up the financial system.
To manage the Social Security financial system.
It is also the task of the Government of Catalonia to enforce Spanish legislation concerning pharmaceutical products.
For these purposes, the Government of Catalonia may organise and administer within its territory all services concerning these subsidiary matters and supervise the institutions, bodies and foundations involved with health and social security, while the Spanish government reserves the right to higher level inspection to ensure compliance with the functions and competences contained in this article.
The Government of Catalonia will adapt the exercise of the powers it assumes concerning health and social security to the criteria of democratic participation by all those involved, and by trade unions and employers' associations under the terms established by law.

Article 18
Concerning the administration of justice, aside from military justice, it is the task of the Government of Catalonia:

To exercise all the powers recognised or attributed to the Spanish government by the Judiciary Acts and the General Judiciary Council.
To fix the boundaries of the territorial demarcations of jurisdictional bodies in Catalonia and the locations of their headquarters.
To assist in organising customary and traditional courts and in establishing courthouses, always subject to the provisions of the Judiciary Act.

Article 19
The High Court of Justice of Catalonia, into which the current Barcelona District Court will be incorporated, is the jurisdictional body at the head of the judicial organisation in its territorial area and before which the successive rights of appeal will be exhausted, under the terms of article 152 of the Constitution and in accordance with this Statute.

Article 20

The powers of the jurisdictional bodies of Catalonia extend:
To civil cases, at all instances and levels, including appeals on points of law or for review on matters of Catalan Civil Law.
To criminal and social cases, at all instances and levels, except appeals on points of law or for review.
To cases of administrative disputes at all instances and levels, concerning acts passed by the Executive council or Government and by the Administration of the Government of Catalonia concerning legislation corresponding exclusively to the Autonomous Community and, in the first instance, concerning acts passed by the Spanish Government Administration in Catalonia.
To matters of competence between judicial bodies in Catalonia.
To appeals concerning the classification of documents referring to Catalan property law requiring access to the Property Registries.
In other matters, appeals on points of law or corresponding ones under Spanish law, or, as appropriate, those for review, may be lodged if necessary. The Supreme Court will also resolve conflicts of competence and jurisdiction between the Catalan Courts and those in the rest of Spain.

Article 21

The President of the High Court of Justice of Catalonia will be appointed by the King following a proposal by the General Judiciary Council. The President of the Government of Catalonia will order the publication of this appointment in the official gazette of the Government of Catalonia.
The appointment of the Magistrates, Judges and Clerks of the High Court of Justice of Catalonia will be made in the manner established in the Judiciary and General Judiciary Council Acts.

Article 22
At the request of the Government of Catalonia, the competent body will hold selection processes and competitive examinations to cover vacancies in Catalonia for Magistrates, Judges, Court Clerks and all other staff of the Justice Administration Service in accordance with the provisions of the Judiciary Act.

Article 23

The selection processes, competitive examinations and appointments to fill vacancies in Catalonia for Magistrates, Judges, Court Clerks and other staff of the Justice Administration Service will be made in the manner established in the Judiciary and General Judiciary Council Acts, and credit will be given for specialisation in Catalan law. In no case may anyone be excluded because of their background or place of residence.
The organisation and operation of the Public Prosecutor's Office corresponds entirely to the Spanish government, in accordance with general law.

Article 24

Notaries Public and Property and Companies Registrars will be appointed by the Government of Catalonia, in accordance with Spanish law. Candidates to be notaries public will be admitted with equal rights, whether they practise in Catalan territory or in the rest of Spain. In these selection procedures and competitive examinations, credit will be given for specialisation in Catalan law. In no case may anyone be excluded because of their background or place of residence.
The Catalan government will take part in fixing the demarcations corresponding to the Property and Companies registries to accommodate them to the applicable provisions of article 18, paragraph 2 of this Statute. It will also take part in fixing notarial demarcations and the number of notaries public, in accordance with the provisions of Spanish law.

Article 25

All the powers mentioned in the foregoing articles and others in this Statute will be understood to refer to the territory of Catalonia.
In the exercise of its exclusive competences, the Government of Catalonia has, as necessary, power to legislate, power to regulate and the task of enforcement, including inspection. In the case of the matters indicated in article 11 of this Statute or of similar ones in other precepts contained in it, their exercise must be subject to the regulations passed by the Spanish Government in developing its legislation.
The Government of Catalonia will include in its organisation the corresponding services in order to exercise the powers attributed to it by this Statute.

Article 26

In matters that are the exclusive competence of the Government of Catalonia, Catalan law applies in its territory in preference to any other.
Where its own law does not exist, it will be complemented by Spanish law.
In determining the sources of civil law, the Spanish Government will respect the rules of Catalan civil law.

Article 27

To manage and provide its own services corresponding to matters over which it has exclusive powers, the Government of Catalonia may make agreements with other autonomous communities. These agreements must be approved by the Parliament of Catalonia and notified to the Spanish Parliament. They will come into force thirty days after such notification unless the Spanish Parliament resolves, within the aforementioned period that, because of its content, the agreement must undergo the procedure provided for in the second paragraph of this article, as a co-operation agreement.
The Government of Catalonia may also establish co-operation agreements with other autonomous communities with the prior authorisation of the Spanish Parliament.
The Government of Catalonia will adopt the measures necessary to enforce international treaties and conventions affecting the matters attributed to it according to this Statute.
Considering that Catalan is part of the heritage of other territories and communities, beyond the links and correspondence maintained by academic and cultural institutions, the Government of Catalonia may ask the Spanish Government to draw up and present, as appropriate, to the Spanish Parliament for its approval treaties or agreements making it possible to establish cultural relations with states that these territories or communities form part of or live in.
The Government of Catalonia will be kept informed of the drafting of the treaties and agreements and of parliamentary bills concerning customs duties involved in matters of specific interest to it.

Article 28

The Government of Catalonia may request the Spanish Government to transfer or delegate powers it does not assume under this Statute.
The Government of Catalonia may request the Spanish Parliament, in the framework acts it approves concerning matters that are the exclusive competence of the Spanish Government, to expressly attribute to the Government of Catalonia the power to legislate, in order to develop these acts, under the terms of part 1 of article 150 of the Constitution.
Powers to draw up the aforementioned requests correspond to the Government of Catalonia, as do those to determine the body of the Government of Catalonia to which the transferred or delegated competence should be attributed.
At any rate, that was the old list of stuff. Nowadays, Catalonia is ruled by a rather more expansive statute, negotiated in 2006, that even after the Spanish constitutional court deemed certain parts of it unconstitutional in 2010 is rather more expansive than the list above.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Thanas »

This is much more than what a German land can regulate. Way more autonomy.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Dartzap »

Pretty similar level of autonomy to Scotland, if not more.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Thanas »

Can Scotland pass its own civil law?
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Dartzap »

Thanas wrote: 2017-10-05 01:40pm Can Scotland pass its own civil law?
If the subject of the legislation has been devolved to them, yes.

I'm trying to find a good guide to it, but not finding anything that's not in legalese.

Edit

The website for the Parliament does have a broad range of what it has power over
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Dartzap »

This is from the Beebs GCSE revision site of all places:
.
Home > Modern Studies > Political issues in the UK > Devolved decision making in Scotland
Modern Studies

Devolved decision making in Scotland

Powers of the Scottish Parliament
Devolved and reserved powers
Scotland has devolved powers within the UK system of government, as set out in the Scotland Act (2001). This means that the country is not independent but it does have control over some of its affairs through its elected parliament.

Devolved powers
The affairs over which the Scottish Parliament has control are called devolved powers, and they include:

health
education and training
local government
law, including most aspects of criminal and civil law, the prosecution system and the courts
social work
housing
tourism and economic development
some aspects of transport, including the Scottish road network, bus policy, and ports and harbours
planning and the environment
agriculture, forestry and fishing
sport and the arts
miscellaneous matters, such as compiling statistics and keeping public records
Reserved powers
The UK Parliament retains control over a whole range of national affairs. These are called reserved powers, and they include:

constitutional matters
UK defence and national security
UK foreign policy
immigration and nationality
UK economic and monetary policy (other than Scotland's tax-varying power)
energy: electricity, coal, gas and nuclear power
employment legislation
social security (the DWP - Department for Work and Pensions)
some aspects of transport, including railways, safety and regulation
regulation of certain professions such as medicine and dentistry
others, such as data protection, broadcasting, gambling and the National Lottery
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

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Well Spain is threatening to dissolve the Catalan parliament. Fun times ahead.

My best friend was due to head to Barcelona in a few weeks. If the unrest keeps up, I am going to have to warn him about going.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Dragon Angel »

mr friendly guy wrote: 2017-10-06 07:07amWell Spain is threatening to dissolve the Catalan parliament. Fun times ahead.

My best friend was due to head to Barcelona in a few weeks. If the unrest keeps up, I am going to have to warn him about going.
"Fun times", indeed.....

I guess Spain really wants an all-out revolt.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by K. A. Pital »

Spain wants to maintain territorial intergrity, which is on course to be destroyed irreversibly the day after tomorrow, if the Catalan parliament proceeds with unilaterally declaring independence.

They act out of fear, and make mistakes. If the rebels are resolute enough to risk separation - even if it means total economic oblivion, which they could see by the banks and multinationals fleeing the region like rats - then they sure as hell would not be deterred by mere threats from the central government.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by The Romulan Republic »

What a God-damned cluster fuck.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

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The Romulan Republic wrote: 2017-10-07 01:30pmWhat a God-damned cluster fuck.
Now that I think we can all agree on. Here's hoping the Spanish government finally has an attack of common sense and offers to hold an officially sanctioned, legally binding referendum that both sides agree to abide by without excessive sulking rather than putting troops on the streets.

And yes, you might well consider that to be rewarding bad behaviour and it's not an entirely indefensible position. But from what I can gather the Catalonians have been trying to get that very thing organised for decades, and been continually stonewalled largely because the central government is worried the result might not be in their favour.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Well, like I said, I'm generally anti-secession, and I particularly don't like the way that the Catalonian separatists went about it here, since it is neither legal nor, to all appearances, democratic.

But I suppose it might be the only way to defuse the situation now. There are times, of course, where preserving a country's unity, and the rule of law, is worth conflict (my own country's civil war was one of those times). But maybe this isn't one of them. Certainly not if other alternatives are available.

Of course, it would a gamble for the Spanish government, who probably would stand a good chance to loose a fair vote after their recent actions. Not that I expect the government of Spain to go for it, in any case.

Both sides seem to have committed themselves to a path that is likely to end in violence.

I'd like to know more about how the rest of the EU perceives this (beyond the SNP being supportive of the Catalonian separatists). And what the prospects would be for any kind of EU intervention (not saying military intervention- more likely economic/diplomatic pressure).
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Thanas »

It is rather simple - Catalonia would crash out of the EU and would not receive any EU money, nor would they be aable to trade freely, nor would they be able to travel freely. Any such agreement would be vetoed by Spain. I suppose they can try to get Russia or China to help them, but for the EU they would be a state outside the EU area.

As they are totally dependant on trade with the EU seceding does not make a lot of sense financially.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by streetad »

Well,the EU is still a relatively loose collection of somewhat sovereign nation states and is pretty much going to act in the interest of those members. Many of which have their own regionalist tensions that they will want to discourage.

Whilst I'm sure they would not want to be seen to condone the actions of the Spanish government, there's not much they can do other than harrumphing in disapproval and providing mediation if it is requested. They certainly aren't going to attempt to overrule the Spanish constitution given the enormous can of worms this would unleash.

Military intervention, if it came to that, is just absolutely not something that is on the table. Spain is, after all, a member of NATO in good standing, so if anything, most European nations are compelled by treaty to protect the Spanish state from outside military interference.

Realistically, the EU is unlikely to want to risk losing further territory either by Catalonia breaking away and Spain vetoing any possibility of re-entry, or outraging the Spanish government enough to cause a 'Spexet' scenario. On the other hand, a new Northern Ireland in the heart of Europe is also the last thing anyone wants.

It's a bit of a nightmare scenario all round for the EU - I would expect them to stay out of it as much as possible whilst offering mediation, if anything.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Thanas »

Meanwhile:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... in-protest
Pro-unity Catalans take to the streets to condemn ‘selfish revolution’
Catalonia heads for chaos as huge numbers of ‘the silenced’ prepare to join Barcelona protest march


They call themselves the silenced; the Catalans who are opposed to independence but have been unable – and often afraid – to make their voice heard above the roaring passion of the secessionists.

Huge numbers are expected to protest on Sunday in Barcelona against the perceived hijacking of the political process by an independence movement that has so far never won the support of more than 48% of the population.

The march has been organised by Societat Civil Catalana (SCC), the main channel for anti-independence sentiment in what has suddenly become one of the most troubled regions in Europe. The march will call for a new phase of dialogue with the rest of Spain and will be attended by such luminaries as the Nobel-winning Peruvian novelist Mario Vargas Llosa and Josep Borrell, former president of the European parliament.

There is acute uncertainty over where the crisis will lead, after Spain’s constitutional court banned the Catalan parliament from sitting tomorrow to prevent it declaring independence. While some members of parliament said the sitting would go ahead as planned, eyes are now focused on a statement that Carles Puigdemont, the Catalan president, intends to make on Tuesday.

Puigdemont is under pressure to pull back from the brink by not declaring independence. The Barcelona Bar Association (ICAB) has published an open letter saying: “The Independent Commission for Mediation, Dialogue and Conciliation has told the president that it is essential to hold back on political decisions that will increase the tension between the state and Catalan governments.”

Saturday saw marches and demonstrations all over Spain, with tens of thousands gathering in Madrid’s Plaza Colón in favour of a united Spain. In dozens of towns and cities, including Barcelona, people joined the “white demonstrations” demanding dialogue. Dressed in white and without any flags, protesters marched under the single slogan in Spanish and Catalan: Hablemos/Parlem – let’s talk.

Ada Colau, the Barcelona mayor, who was among thousands on the city’s white demonstration, said: “We mustn’t resign ourselves to polarisation, bellicose language and the competitive logic that only seeks the defeat of the adversary.”

Today’s show of strength by anti-independence Catalans will be watched closely by those on both sides of last week’s referendum divide.

Álex Ramos, president of the SCC, told the Observer: “The nationalism here is ethnic, not civic; it’s linguistic, cultural, tribal, sentimental and romantic. It’s not like the French revolution, demanding equality and liberty for all. Deep down these nationalists think they’re different from others and, ultimately, better than them.

“This is a revolution of the powerful, of Catalonia’s wealthiest classes, not the oppressed. It’s a selfish revolution. They mobilise, telling the world how hard done by they are, and then dismiss anyone who disagrees as a fascist.”

Many complain of an atmosphere of intolerance and intimidation that leads those who oppose independence to bite their tongues. Reporters without Borders recently published a report detailing the official pressure and online trolling of journalists who stray from the secessionist line.


“No one talks about the state of siege brought on by the secessionists that has the rest of us watching what we say and what we do, or that we don’t post on Facebook just so that others don’t come down on us and call us fascist,” one Barcelona native who didn’t wish to be named told the Observer.

“I’m against independence, and up until now people have accepted my opinion with respect,” says Lola García, 49, from Cambrils. “But now, depending on who I’m speaking to, I’m a bit more careful.”

“The issue is deeply divisive in Catalonia,” says Nick Lloyd, who runs Spanish Civil War tours and has lived in Barcelona for 28 years. “I have Catalan friends and family on both sides. Those against are often worried about expressing their opinions for fear of being called a fascist. Many of them are, in fact, far more leftwing than many on the pro-independence side. As a foreigner, they can ignore me, but my Catalan partner feels far more uncomfortable about talking, depending on the company.”

It is estimated that some 40% of Catalans are either Spanish or the children of Spaniards who emigrated here in vast numbers in the latter half of the 20th century. A further 17% – 1.2 million people – have made Catalonia their home in the past 15 years, roughly a third each from Europe, Latin America and Africa, in addition to around 150,000 from Asia. Few of these share the same sentimental attachment; many don’t feel included in the independence debate.

“I feel totally excluded from the discussion, both at state and local level,” says María Araya, who lives in Premià de Mar and moved to Spain from Argentina 15 years ago. “As foreigners don’t get to vote, no one cares what we think.” On a personal level, Araya says she feels Catalan society is inclusive but is concerned about the way things are now. “If they don’t negotiate soon, things could get very tense.”

Ruth Nieto, a waitress who emigrated to Barcelona from Ecuador when she was 19, is neither strongly for or against independence, but says what matters are human and civil rights. “I feel included,” she says. “Catalonia has shown that it is a multicultural, multilingual and democratic society.”

“Not having a vote makes it difficult to be part of the discussion, but standing by and seeing both sides make huge mistakes is becoming less of an option,” says Rose Kowalski, a film producer who lives in the secessionist heartland of Girona and whose partner is Catalonian.

“What I can’t bear is the slogans saying ‘We vote to be free’. I find it absolutely insulting to claim that we’re not free at the moment,” she says. “Look at Turkey, look at Myanmar, look at Catalonia’s own history under Franco – that’s a denial of freedom.

“In Girona, it’s almost impossible to discuss the manner in which the Catalan government is pushing secession through,” she says. “Any examination of the arguments or motives is regarded as taking a position against.”

There are signs that Puigdemont, who has led the charge to independence, is now being reined in by the old guard of the nationalist movement. Plans for a unilateral declaration of independence tomorrow were stymied when the constitutional court prohibited the Catalan parliament from sitting, though this doesn’t mean UDI is off the agenda.

The flight of Catalonia’s two biggest banks, with other businesses also fearful that independence could push the region out of the European Union, is having a sobering effect. A popular Catalan saying asserts that “la pela es la pela” [money is money].

A referendum on independence remains the sticking point. Ramos cites the parallels with Brexit – substitute “independence” for “take back control” – and rejects the orthodoxy that what is needed is a legally binding referendum.

“A referendum is the problem, not the solution,” he says. “I think it’s better to come to a negotiated agreement and then have a referendum to ratify it than to pit one side against the other. A referendum is socially divisive.”
The report is here and worth reading.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Thanas »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y__YVFm28KA

Images from the anti-independence protests, which dwarfed the pro-independence marches.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by K. A. Pital »

I wonder how many are locals and how many are coming from other Spanish regions.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by streetad »

I doubt any will have come from as far afield as Scotland...
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Thanas »

K. A. Pital wrote: 2017-10-09 09:04am I wonder how many are locals and how many are coming from other Spanish regions.
Probably very little seeing as how a pro-independence party has never won a popular vote in catalan elections.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by K. A. Pital »

Thanas wrote: 2017-10-09 01:03pm
K. A. Pital wrote: 2017-10-09 09:04am I wonder how many are locals and how many are coming from other Spanish regions.
Probably very little seeing as how a pro-independence party has never won a popular vote in catalan elections.
How come their entire government is composed of pro-independent officials, then? It is quite obvious to me that the results of Junts Per Si, Catalunya Sí que es Pot and Democratic Union of Catalonia are (1) a majority when counted together (2) pro-independence.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Crazedwraith »

That doesn't necessarily follow that the electorate is therefore a majority pro-independence. As people can vote for them for other reasons assuming they all have all other policies than 'let's be independent'.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Captain Seafort »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2017-10-09 01:53pm That doesn't necessarily follow that the electorate is therefore a majority pro-independence. As people can vote for them for other reasons assuming they all have all other policies than 'let's be independent'.
It does, however, support the general consensus as I understand it that while support for independence is (or was) well under half, support for a vote on independence has a strong majority.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Crazedwraith »

The BBC wrote: Spain is to start suspending Catalonia's autonomy from Saturday, as the region's leader threatens to declare independence.

The government said ministers would meet to activate Article 155 of the constitution, allowing it to take over running of the region.

Catalonia's leader said the region's parliament would vote on independence if Spain continued "repression".

Catalans voted to secede in a referendum outlawed by Spain.

Some fear the latest moves could spark further unrest after mass demonstrations before and since the ballot on 1 October.

Spain's supreme court declared the vote illegal and said it violated the constitution, which describes the country as indivisible.

Article 155 of the constitution, which cemented democratic rule three years after the death of dictator General Francisco Franco in 1975, allows Madrid to impose direct rule in a crisis but it has never been invoked.

BBC Madrid correspondent Tom Burridge says that for Madrid this is about upholding the rule of law in Catalonia, protecting the Spanish constitution and disciplining what it sees as an unruly, disobedient devolved government.

However, the central government wants to minimise the risk of large-scale demonstrations, our correspondent says. Civil servants and government lawyers have thought long and hard about what measures to adopt and when and how they should be implemented.
More at the link.
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Re: The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

Post by Dartzap »

Brown stuff headed for the fan time - Catalonian parliament just declared independence, just as Madrid was going to resume direct control.
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