Jeffrey Epstein arrested in New York on child sex trafficking charges.

[The Romulan Republic]

Giuffre's memoir has been unsealed (warning- some of the details in the article are, obviously, pretty unpleasant to read about):

https://insider.com/inside-jeffrey-epst ... oir-2019-8

A memoir written by Jeffrey Epstein victim Virginia Giuffre, née Roberts, was unsealed on Friday, revealing new accusations of manipulation and abuse by sex offender Epstein and his circle of powerful acquaintances — from Prince Andrew to former senator and Disney chairman George Mitchell.

The 139-page exposé is one of the exhibits in Giuffre's lawsuit against Epstein's partner Ghislaine Maxwell, which settled in May 2017. The memoir details Giuffre's life as a teenager inside of Epstein's alleged sex ring, where she said she was forced to have sex with Epstein and Maxwell on command, and to do the same with the men who she described as Epstein's clients, all against a backdrop of expensive champagne, fancy gowns, and frequent trips on Epstein's private jet.

Giuffre was just 15 when Maxwell spotted her working at President Donald Trump's Mar-A-Lago resort (page 22). Maxwell asked Giuffre to audition for a job as Epstein's traveling masseuse. It was during that first massage that Epstein and Maxwell made their true intentions clear, according to the memoir.

Giuffre claimed she spent most of three years inside of Epstein's sex ring, showing up whenever Epstein called, all the while growing increasingly depressed and addicted to drugs, but too financially dependent to leave Epstein until she met and married an Australian man soon after she turned 18.

These are the most significant allegations Giuffre made in her memoir about her life inside of Epstein's sex ring.

Ghislaine Maxwell allegedly played a key role in the abuse
Giuffre's memoir was included in evidence as part of her since-settled lawsuit against Maxwell. Giuffre describes Maxwell as an integral part of Epstein's sex ring, and describes her as actively recruiting and grooming underage girls to meet Epstein's sexual needed. But Giuffre also alleges that Maxwell herself participated in sex acts (page 25), and played a key role in manipulating the girls.

She accuses a hotel owner and Senator George Mitchell of having sex with a minor

Giuffre gives a first-hand account of the many rich and famous people who shared a social life with Epstein, including several men who she claims that Epstein forced her to have sex with when she was underage.
In one passage, she describes her encounter with a man that Epstein called "Rick," who she said "was a hotel owner of some large chain in American called 'Hilton'," (page 66).

Giuffre described him as a "short, balding man with straggling remnants of curly brown hair left to show for the remaining bits of youth left in him."

Giuffre said that man offered to pay her triple what Epstein paid her to perform a similar role for him personally.

A representative for businessman Rick Hilton, the father of Paris Hilton, said that it is not him described in the memoir, as he does not own Hilton, and he does not match the physical description.

She also said Epstein made her have sex with Prince Andrew (page 75) including an act which involved a doll that resembled the prince. The prince was aware she was just 17, Giuffre said (page 77).

"This relates to proceedings in the United States, to which The Duke of York is not a party," a Buckingham Palace spokesperson told INSIDER in an email. "Any suggestion of impropriety with underage minors is categorically untrue."

Giuffre said she was also forced to sleep with former senator and Disney chairman George Mitchell (page 71), as well as two academics. One is a Harvard professor whose first name is Stephen (page 59). His last name was published in the memoir but redacted from the files. The second she describes as a "Nobel Prize-winning scientist," whose name she also does not remember (page 71).

"The allegation contained in the released documents is false," Mitchell said in a statement. "I have never met, spoken with or had any contact with Ms. Giuffre. In my contacts with Mr. Epstein I never observed or suspected any inappropriate conduct with underage girls. I only learned of his actions when they were reported in the media related to his prosecution in Florida. We have had no further contact."

In addition, Giuffre alleged that she gave massages to marine activist Alexandra Cousteau (page 68), the granddaughter of explorer Jacques Cousteau, "several times" during their "first meeting." She also said that Epstein "instigated that she and I reenact as lovers in lesbian acts of foreplay and penetration," saying that Epstein claimed to have donated to Cousteau's marine exploration projects.

"The allegations by Virginia Giuffre née Roberts regarding Ms. Cousteau are 100 percent false," Cousteau's lawyer said in an email. "Ms. Cousteau never had intimate relations with Giuffre, and does not even recall ever having met such a person. Ms. Cousteau and her organization also never received any financial contributions whatsoever from Mr. Epstein or his company."

Glenn Dubin is also named

Giuffre also gives new color to the relationship between Highbridge Capital co-founder Glenn Dubin and his wife, Eva Andersson Dubin, who have been friendly with the disgraced financier for decades (page 44).
In the memoir, Giuffre claims that Glenn had sex with her at the end of a massage after she was instructed by Epstein to meet the Dubins at The Breakers hotel in Palm Beach. Before she met with Glenn, she gave a pregnant Eva a brief massage which involved fondling her breasts, then swollen from the pregnancy. Once Eva had fallen asleep. Giuffre said she went to another room to give Glenn an hours-long massage that ended in intercourse.

"Glenn and Eva Dubin are outraged by the allegations in the unsealed court records, which are demonstrably false and defamatory," a spokesperson told INSIDER. "The Dubins have flight records and other evidence that definitively disprove that any such events occurred."

Celebrities were everywhere
Giuffre was also an eye-witness to many guests passing through Epstein's social orbit, including then-presidential candidate Al Gore and President Bill Clinton. Giuffre describes Gore as dedicated to his wife (page 109), but didn't say the same for Clinton. Though she didn't have a sexual relationship with Clinton, Giuffre said she saw him with two young women while on Epstein's island (page 110).

A representative for the Clinton Foundation did not immediately respond to a request or comment.

The memoir also includes a detailed account of a foot massage she gave to "The Simpson's" producer Matt Groening (page 52). Groening was a pleasure to meet by Giuffre's account, aside from his grotesque feet.

"I never turned down a client but when I saw the shape of his feet, I nearly threw up at the thought of having to touch them. He had yellow crusty toenails that even someone with a chainsaw would've had trouble cutting through and then there was the fluffy balls of leftover pieces of sock wedged between the crevices of his sweaty toes..." she wrote.

Epstein wanted Giuffre's baby
Though by Giuffre's account, Epstein normally treated her like a "dog on a leash," (page 113) that briefly changed once Epstein decided he wanted Giuffre to have his child.

After a day of snorkeling in the Caribbean, Epstein told Giuffre that she had made "a name" for herself among the friends he had introduced her to and that he "could think of nobody else" he would "rather have a child than with than" her (page 114).

Maxwell went on to describe the conditions of the arrangement. Giuffre would have nannies around the clock, a mansion paid for her in either Palm Beach or New York, and a hefty monthly allowance. However, her servitude would continue. She would have to travel with the child to Jeffrey whenever he asked, and she would have to sign a contract that said she was not monogamous with Jeffrey and that Jeffrey would have custody if the two had a falling out (page 115).

Epstein openly bribed local police
According to Giuffre, Epstein used his connection with the Palm Beach County Police Department to get her out of trouble with the police.

Giuffre says she was blamed when her boyfriend TJ stole a tip jar from the restaurant where she worked after taking a break from sex work. She soon returned to Epstein, who told her he regularly donated $100,000 to the PBCP and that he could take care of the charges the restaurant filed against her (page 87).

On Saturday, Jeffrey Epstein was found dead in his cell at Manhattan's Metropolitan Correctional Center. Prosecutors say the investigation into Epstein and his alleged sex trafficking ring will continue.

A quick summary:

Among those she alleges she was forced to have sex with while she was underage and in Epstein's employee are:

As noted previously:

Epstein himself.
Ghislaine Maxwell, who she alleges also recruited, groomed, and manipulated girls to perform sex acts.
Prince Andrew (who she confirms knew she was 17 at the time).

The accused also include some names which were previously unknown or didn't get much press, including:

-A "Rick" who is probably, based on context, Rick Hilton, Paris Hilton's father.
-Former Senator and Disney Chairman George Mitchell.
-An unknown Harvard professor (first name Stephen, last name redacted- I wonder if that's because he's subject to an ongoing investigation?).
-An unknown Nobel Prize winner.
-Alexandra Cousteau (Jacques Cousteau's granddaughter).
-Highbridge capital co-founder Glenn Dubin. As well as giving a fairly intimate massage to his wife, Eva Andersson Dubin.

She also alleges that Epstein regularly bribed local police.

In addition, she says that she witnessed Bill Clinton and Al Gore in Epstein's company. She does not allege having had sex with Clinton, but notes that she saw him in the company of a couple of young women. Gore is just about the only person who comes out of this looking, if not good, at least not utterly awful, as she notes that he was "dedicated to his wife", as the article puts it.

She also claims to have met Simpsons producer Matt Groening, and given him a foot massage, but does not allege having sex with him.

[bilateralrope]

"Glenn and Eva Dubin are outraged by the allegations in the unsealed court records, which are demonstrably false and defamatory," a spokesperson told INSIDER. "The Dubins have flight records and other evidence that definitively disprove that any such events occurred."

These two are going to be the interesting ones to watch. Are they going to release the evidence they claim to have or come up with excuses ?

[The Romulan Republic]

"Glenn and Eva Dubin are outraged by the allegations in the unsealed court records, which are demonstrably false and defamatory," a spokesperson told INSIDER. "The Dubins have flight records and other evidence that definitively disprove that any such events occurred."

These two are going to be the interesting ones to watch. Are they going to release the evidence they claim to have or come up with excuses ?

Indeed. There seems a pretty clear allegation, and a claim that they have evidence which refutes it (which, correctly or not, would affect the credibility of Giuffre's other allegations).

[Zaune]

Prince Andrew (who she confirms knew she was 17 at the time).

Worth noting that he comes from a country where the age of consent is 16. He doesn't come out of this sordid episode looking good, but he probably didn't knowingly commit statutory rape. Whether he knew she was being coerced into working for Epstein... Well, I would certainly hope not but you never know.

[The Romulan Republic]

Prince Andrew (who she confirms knew she was 17 at the time).

Worth noting that he comes from a country where the age of consent is 16. He doesn't come out of this sordid episode looking good, but he probably didn't knowingly commit statutory rape. Whether he knew she was being coerced into working for Epstein... Well, I would certainly hope not but you never know.

Noted, but one has a certain responsibility, when traveling abroad, to be aware of and comply with the local laws. Plus, to paraphrase John Oliver on the age of consent- if you're parsing exactly where the line is, you've probably already done something horribly wrong.

[Elheru Aran]

Prince Andrew (who she confirms knew she was 17 at the time).

Worth noting that he comes from a country where the age of consent is 16. He doesn't come out of this sordid episode looking good, but he probably didn't knowingly commit statutory rape. Whether he knew she was being coerced into working for Epstein... Well, I would certainly hope not but you never know.

Pretty sure that if he did it here, it still counts. But I'm not a lawyer.

[Ralin]

Pretty sure that if he did it here, it still counts. But I'm not a lawyer.

It tends to matter for extradition purposes, way I understand it. But I'm also not a lawyer.

[Zaune]

Noted, but one has a certain responsibility, when traveling abroad, to be aware of and comply with the local laws. Plus, to paraphrase John Oliver on the age of consent- if you're parsing exactly where the line is, you've probably already done something horribly wrong.

There is that. But personally, I'm less bothered about the fact these men allegedly had sex with someone who was slightly younger than the legal age of consent than the fact they had sex with someone who was forced into sexual slavery: If nothing else, that certainly doesn't become less fucking horrible if the victim is old enough to vote!

All that being said, however, it's worth keeping in mind that Mrs Guiffre's account has not yet been proven in court. I'm not suggesting she's lying, but we should still reserve judgemnent until other victims come forward to corroborate her version of events. I know firsthand what it's like to have people believe you to be a rapist, and it's not an experience I would wish on anyone who hadn't actually done it.

[bilateralrope]

I worked last night, which meant catching up on my podcasts. Which pointed out a few things:
- The suicide watch cell does not sound good for a prisoners mental health, with things like the lights staying on the whole time. So it makes sense why Epstein would be removed from there.
- Putting Epstein into solitary afterwards, instead of being put back in with a cellmate (like they promised the DOJ) only makes sense if somebody wanted Epstein dead.
- His death leaves nobody with the standing to challenge the search warrant on his house, and there is a lawsuit to remove the non-prosecution protection for his co-conspirators in part because they weren't a party to the deal. Only Epstein was and ending that deal won't harm him.

So my thoughts are:
- If there was any bribery to let Epstein commit suicide, he's the person I think most likely to have bribed someone.
- I want to know how often guards at the prison skip checks and fake logbook entries. Not just the two that should have been watching when Epstein killed himself.

[The Romulan Republic]

Noted, but one has a certain responsibility, when traveling abroad, to be aware of and comply with the local laws. Plus, to paraphrase John Oliver on the age of consent- if you're parsing exactly where the line is, you've probably already done something horribly wrong.

There is that. But personally, I'm less bothered about the fact these men allegedly had sex with someone who was slightly younger than the legal age of consent than the fact they had sex with someone who was forced into sexual slavery: If nothing else, that certainly doesn't become less fucking horrible if the victim is old enough to vote!

All that being said, however, it's worth keeping in mind that Mrs Guiffre's account has not yet been proven in court. I'm not suggesting she's lying, but we should still reserve judgemnent until other victims come forward to corroborate her version of events. I know firsthand what it's like to have people believe you to be a rapist, and it's not an experience I would wish on anyone who hadn't actually done it.

I imagine there are few things worse than being falsely subjected to such an accusation. Of course, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that false rape allegations are a smaller problem than real rape allegations being ignored or attacked. And no wonder- there are also few experiences that potentially subject one to more horror and abuse and danger than making a rape allegation, especially against a wealthy and powerful white man.

Still, if it were just Guiffre's word against Epstein's, I might have held off on passing judgement. Its always possible one person is lying, or delusional. But it really, really isn't just her word.

This case isn't "he said, she said". This is "Multiple women said, and he was previously convicted for crimes involving the sex abuse of minors, for which he got a ridiculously cushy sentence by almost any standard, and they found pornographic images of minors when they searched his property, and he was probably also committing various financial crimes."

Then there are the highly suspicious circumstances around Epstein's death, which suggest that someone may have gone to considerable lengths to silence him (more on that in a moment, since there are now new developments).

So yeah, I'm going to believe Guiffre. It is still possible for there to be individual errors in her account, because human memory is imperfect if nothing else. But I believe that the broad strokes of her account, and most or all of the names accused, are almost certainly correct.

And on the subject of his death:

https://cnn.com/2019/08/15/us/jeffrey-e ... index.html

(CNN)An autopsy performed on Jeffrey Epstein showed he "sustained multiple breaks in his neck bones," the Washington Post reported Wednesday.

People familiar with the autopsy report told the newspaper the bones broken in Epstein's neck included the hyoid bone, which is near the Adam's apple.

This sort of break can happen when a person hangs themselves or dies by strangulation, forensics experts told the Post.
Epstein, 66, was found dead in the special housing unit of the federal Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York on Saturday. He was in a cell by himself.

The multimillionaire hedge fund manager had been jailed since early last month, awaiting trial on federal charges accusing him of operating a sex trafficking ring from 2002 to 2005 at his Manhattan mansion and his Palm Beach estate in which he paid girls as young as 14 for sex. He pleaded not guilty to the charges.

Two prison staff members who'd been guarding the unit where Epstein died by apparent suicide failed to check on him that night for about three hours, The New York Times reported Tuesday, citing several law enforcement and prison officials with knowledge of the investigation.

Officials have cautioned to CNN that they don't know what the staff members were doing during that time and are still trying to pin that down.

Guards are supposed to check on detainees in the special housing unit every 30 minutes, a source with knowledge of Epstein's time at the prison previously told CNN.

Representatives for Epstein are not disputing preliminary findings of FBI investigators and the New York City medical examiner that Epstein died by suicide, according to a source briefed on the matter.

The medical examiner is awaiting toxicology reports before officially ruling on Epstein's death.

Epstein's family hired its own pathologist, Michael Baden, who was present during the autopsy, according to the source, and he is also not disputing preliminary findings from the medical examiner that Epstein killed himself.

Fractured hyoid occurs in both suicides and homicides, experts say
While a break in the hyoid bone is common in victims of homicide by strangulation, Epstein's autopsy also showed signs of other neck fractures, the Washington Post reported.

CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta said, "With multiple neck fractures, that is less likely to be strangulation alone."
"In strangulation, while you can break the hyoid bone, it is less likely to actually break bones in the neck," Gupta said. "By hanging, someone can break both the hyoid bone and other bones in the neck. None of these factors in isolation give you a complete story."
Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, a professor of forensic science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, noted the hyoid bone is a weak, fragile structure, and it can break from a hanging. A fractured hyoid bone does not necessarily indicate a homicide, Kobilinsky said.
To make a determination about a death, medical examiners look at other factors in addition to the autopsy, like a person's psychological history and video surveillance.

"A lot of pieces have to come together in order to make the final determination," Kobilisnky said.

One staffer was not currently a regular guard; both were on overtime
Of the two officers who would have had responsibility to monitor Epstein, one was not currently a detention guard but was temporarily reassigned to that post, according to a person briefed on the matter. The guard, a man not identified by officials, had previously been trained as a corrections officer but had moved to another position.

Rules at the Federal Bureau of Prisons allow for people who work in other prison jobs, such as teachers and cooks, to be trained to fill in at posts usually manned by regular guards.

The second staff member on Epstein duty, a woman, was a fully trained guard, according to the person briefed on the matter.
Both guards were working overtime shifts, but it's unclear whether that was mandatory. One person familiar with the matter said both employees had volunteered. Union officials say the overtime was mandatory.

The FBI, one of the agencies investigating Epstein's suicide, is looking into what the guards were doing during their shift. The two guards aren't talking to investigators and have hired lawyers, people briefed on the matter have told CNN.

Most of the staff on duty early Saturday were on overtime, according to numbers provided by a Department of Justice official. From midnight until 8 a.m. ET, 10 of the 18 people there were working extra hours. One other person was scheduled to work but didn't.
On the shift from 4 p.m. Friday until midnight, six of 20 people present were on overtime and one person scheduled to work was absent.

Epstein was no longer on suicide watch
Epstein had been placed on suicide watch last month after an incident in the jail. But after he was given daily psychological assessments, he was taken off suicide watch in late July, a person briefed on the matter said, and went back to the facility's special housing unit, which is a section more restricted than general population.

He initially had a cellmate in the special housing unit, but that person was removed for unknown reasons, the source with knowledge of Epstein's time at the prison told CNN.

It's protocol for detainees coming off suicide watch not to be placed alone in a cell, according to the source.
The FBI and Justice Department's inspector general are investigating the earlier incident as part of the broader probe into Epstein's death, it was revealed Wednesday in letters between the judge overseeing the Epstein case and the former warden of the jail where he died.

In the letters dated August 12, US District Court Judge Richard Berman wrote to the warden to inquire about the July 23 incident, saying "to my knowledge, it has never been definitively explained what the BOP (Bureau of Prisons) concluded about that incident."
The warden at the time, Lamine N'Diaye, replied that an internal investigation into the incident had been completed, and that the matter would be reinvestigated as part of the investigations into Epstein's death. N'Diaye said he couldn't divulge any information about the original investigation.

Prison warden has been temporarily reassigned
The warden of the MCC is being moved temporarily as the FBI and the Justice Department's inspector general investigate the circumstances of Epstein's death, the Justice Department said Tuesday.

The move, directed by US Attorney General William Barr, came one day after Barr said there were "serious irregularities" at the New York prison and that he was "appalled" and "angry" to learn of the facility's "failure to adequately secure this prisoner."

The warden, N'diaye, will be moved to a Bureau of Prisons regional office and will be replaced by James Petrucci, the warden of the federal prison in Otisville, New York.

His injuries could be consistent with either suicide or strangulation.

[The Romulan Republic]

Regarding the sexual slavery component: Yeah, that's sickening and evil regardless of the age of the victim. But the underage part makes it even worse, as underage victims will be even more vulnerable, and have even less means to resist such abuse. And I'm not going to give Prince Andrew a pass on it. All the more because someone in his position especially should be familiar with the concept of obeying the laws and customs of the country he is in while traveling abroad, and of not doing stupid things that will bring scandal on his family and his country. No excuse.

[Zaune]

I imagine there are few things worse than being falsely subjected to such an accusation. Of course, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that false rape allegations are a smaller problem than real rape allegations being ignored or attacked. And no wonder- there are also few experiences that potentially subject one to more horror and abuse and danger than making a rape allegation, especially against a wealthy and powerful white man.

Still, if it were just Guiffre's word against Epstein's, I might have held off on passing judgement. Its always possible one person is lying, or delusional. But it really, really isn't just her word.

This case isn't "he said, she said". This is "Multiple women said, and he was previously convicted for crimes involving the sex abuse of minors, for which he got a ridiculously cushy sentence by almost any standard, and they found pornographic images of minors when they searched his property, and he was probably also committing various financial crimes."

Then there are the highly suspicious circumstances around Epstein's death, which suggest that someone may have gone to considerable lengths to silence him (more on that in a moment, since there are now new developments).

So yeah, I'm going to believe Guiffre. It is still possible for there to be individual errors in her account, because human memory is imperfect if nothing else. But I believe that the broad strokes of her account, and most or all of the names accused, are almost certainly correct.

I was thinking more that Guiffre might be mistaken about the identities of some of the named individuals, or have been outright lied to about them. That executive called "Rick" who owned a chain of hotels "called Hilton", for example; the physical description given in the text is supposedly somewhat at odds with the real Richard Hilton, and I got the impression that this was all going down in the late 90s to early 2000s when it was a lot harder to look someone up online. Who's to say the others were who Epstein introduced them as? Clinton and maybe Gore would be hard not to recognise but I wouldn't have had a clue what a household name like Matt Groening looked like without going to his Wikipedia page, let alone individuals like Mitchell or Dublin.

But anyway, my point is that we need all the facts before we pass judgement, even if there's no reason to believe Epstein's numerous victims are telling anything but what they believe is the whole truth. I can't emphasise this distinction enough: We absolutely should take every accusation seriously, but an accusation is not a conviction.

The upshot of which being that an awful lot of alibis are going to have to be checked thoroughly, which is going to be a ball-ache and a half after all this time, unless we get lucky and Epstein's client list turns up at one of his properties. You'd think he'd have some sort of contingency against coming down with Sudden-Onset Mysterious Circumstances, right?

[The Romulan Republic]

I imagine there are few things worse than being falsely subjected to such an accusation. Of course, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that false rape allegations are a smaller problem than real rape allegations being ignored or attacked. And no wonder- there are also few experiences that potentially subject one to more horror and abuse and danger than making a rape allegation, especially against a wealthy and powerful white man.

Still, if it were just Guiffre's word against Epstein's, I might have held off on passing judgement. Its always possible one person is lying, or delusional. But it really, really isn't just her word.

This case isn't "he said, she said". This is "Multiple women said, and he was previously convicted for crimes involving the sex abuse of minors, for which he got a ridiculously cushy sentence by almost any standard, and they found pornographic images of minors when they searched his property, and he was probably also committing various financial crimes."

Then there are the highly suspicious circumstances around Epstein's death, which suggest that someone may have gone to considerable lengths to silence him (more on that in a moment, since there are now new developments).

So yeah, I'm going to believe Guiffre. It is still possible for there to be individual errors in her account, because human memory is imperfect if nothing else. But I believe that the broad strokes of her account, and most or all of the names accused, are almost certainly correct.

I was thinking more that Guiffre might be mistaken about the identities of some of the named individuals, or have been outright lied to about them. That executive called "Rick" who owned a chain of hotels "called Hilton", for example; the physical description given in the text is supposedly somewhat at odds with the real Richard Hilton, and I got the impression that this was all going down in the late 90s to early 2000s when it was a lot harder to look someone up online. Who's to say the others were who Epstein introduced them as? Clinton and maybe Gore would be hard not to recognise but I wouldn't have had a clue what a household name like Matt Groening looked like without going to his Wikipedia page, let alone individuals like Mitchell or Dublin.

There's some merit to that point, but like you yourself just said, she could always just Google these people and say "Yeah, that's the guy"- barring the imperfections of human memory, which I already noted.

But anyway, my point is that we need all the facts before we pass judgement, even if there's no reason to believe Epstein's numerous victims are telling anything but what they believe is the whole truth. I can't emphasise this distinction enough: We absolutely should take every accusation seriously, but an accusation is not a conviction.

The upshot of which being that an awful lot of alibis are going to have to be checked thoroughly, which is going to be a ball-ache and a half after all this time, unless we get lucky and Epstein's client list turns up at one of his properties. You'd think he'd have some sort of contingency against coming down with Sudden-Onset Mysterious Circumstances, right?

Oh, it absolutely should be investigated thoroughly, and the courts have to and should follow due process. But as I said before, I draw a distinction between conviction in a court (where "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" should be an absolute standard), and the judgement of a private individual (where I believe it is absolutely reasonable at this point for an individual to say "I think these people are guilty as sin").

[Zaune]

Oh, it absolutely should be investigated thoroughly, and the courts have to and should follow due process. But as I said before, I draw a distinction between conviction in a court (where "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" should be an absolute standard), and the judgement of a private individual (where I believe it is absolutely reasonable at this point for an individual to say "I think these people are guilty as sin").

What about the judgement of an individual who's in a position of authority over the accused? A CPS caseworker who's had a background check on a client's new lodger come back showing several serious criminal convictions, and refuses to so much as double-check to make sure he typed the name and date of birth into the police database's search page correctly -despite the lodger having proof he was claiming welfare at an address at the other end of the sodding country at the time!- until his client goes over his head to her local MP, for example...

Okay, probably not relevant to most people caught up in the investigation into Epstein. But it does rather illustrate the fact that the judgement of a private individual can and does have consequences that matter.

Sorry to go off on this tangent, but as you might have gathered it's kind of a sore subject.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh, it absolutely should be investigated thoroughly, and the courts have to and should follow due process. But as I said before, I draw a distinction between conviction in a court (where "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" should be an absolute standard), and the judgement of a private individual (where I believe it is absolutely reasonable at this point for an individual to say "I think these people are guilty as sin").

What about the judgement of an individual who's in a position of authority over the accused? A CPS caseworker who's had a background check on a client's new lodger come back showing several serious criminal convictions, and refuses to so much as double-check to make sure he typed the name and date of birth into the police database's search page correctly -despite the lodger having proof he was claiming welfare at an address at the other end of the sodding country at the time!- until his client goes over his head to her local MP, for example...

Okay, probably not relevant to most people caught up in the investigation into Epstein. But it does rather illustrate the fact that the judgement of a private individual can and does have consequences that matter.

Sorry to go off on this tangent, but as you might have gathered it's kind of a sore subject.

I am of the view that those who are acting a professional capacity, particularly for the government, should generally follow the laws, rules, and guidelines regulating their profession, and that if they cannot or will not do so, then they should resign and find a new job. There are certain exceptions, where I believe that acting from within to resist or sabotage an unjust law or action can be justified, and some leeway must also be given to human imperfections, but by and large that is the view that I take.

And yeah, I don't think the example you gave has much relevance to the Epstein case. It sounds more like a clerical mistake compounded by stubbornness/arrogance, which can happen in any profession, than a case of someone who appears guilty based on witness testimony and extensive circumstantial evidence but hasn't yet been convicted in a court of law.

[bilateralrope]

Then there are the highly suspicious circumstances around Epstein's death, which suggest that someone may have gone to considerable lengths to silence him (more on that in a moment, since there are now new developments).

Who stands to gain from Epstein's death ?

Prosecutors weren't going to be offering him a deal that let him get out of prison, so I doubt they could have gotten anything more out of him that they already had. Especially after the first apparent suicide failed.

[The Romulan Republic]

Then there are the highly suspicious circumstances around Epstein's death, which suggest that someone may have gone to considerable lengths to silence him (more on that in a moment, since there are now new developments).

Who stands to gain from Epstein's death ?

Prosecutors weren't going to be offering him a deal that let him get out of prison, so I doubt they could have gotten anything more out of him that they already had. Especially after the first apparent suicide failed.

There are a lot of things they could offer him besides release from prison.

We don't know what happened, but there is at least enough that's fishy about this, and enough people who might have wanted to shut his mouth (whether or not it would ultimately actually help them) that the idea should not be dismissed out of hand. Especially since they haven't even officially confirmed it as a suicide yet.

[bilateralrope]

Then there are the highly suspicious circumstances around Epstein's death, which suggest that someone may have gone to considerable lengths to silence him (more on that in a moment, since there are now new developments).

Who stands to gain from Epstein's death ?

Prosecutors weren't going to be offering him a deal that let him get out of prison, so I doubt they could have gotten anything more out of him that they already had. Especially after the first apparent suicide failed.

There are a lot of things they could offer him besides release from prison.

We don't know what happened, but there is at least enough that's fishy about this, and enough people who might have wanted to shut his mouth (whether or not it would ultimately actually help them) that the idea should not be dismissed out of hand. Especially since they haven't even officially confirmed it as a suicide yet.

What other things could prosecutors offer him for his testimony ?


If you want details on how Epistein's death could make it harder for co-conspirators to defend themselves, I suggest listening to the episode of the podcast All the Presidents Lawyers titled What happens next in the Epstein investigation.


With so many conspiracy theories going around, I'm going to go with whichever interpretation of the facts has the fewest people conspiring towards Epistein's death. For me that is:
- The hanging itself: Everything I've seen is consistent with it being a suicide.
- The guards sleeping through their checks, then falsifying the logs: We are talking about guards who were working a lot of overtime, one guard on their fifth consecutive night of overtime. That sounds like its in addition to their regular shifts. So I'm thinking that they didn't have enough time between shifts to sleep. Add in having to shift when they sleep and it's easy to see them falling asleep on shift due to fatigue. Then falsifying the logs to protect their jobs. So this comes down to the prison being mismanaged, especially if the overtime was mandatory.
- Epistein being taken off suicide watch. He was on suicide watch for 6 days, and I keep seeing people saying that 72 hours is the normal time before people are removed from it. Plus, while I haven't heard from anyone who knows about the conditions of that prisons suicide watch, it doesn't sound good for the inmates mental health. 24/7 lights, minimal clothing, the inmates hygiene suffers because they remove anything that could be used in a suicide attempt. So it looks like he got twice as long on suicide watch as normal.

- Epistein having his cellmate removed. Ok, this I can't explain without thinking someone wanted him dead. So if I go for the minimum people angle, that brings me down to three people being involved: Epistein paying a bribe so he could be left along to kill himself, the person being bribed giving the order to remove the cellmate and someone to pass the message between them.

As more facts come out, I might be forced to reevaluate my position. But, with what I know now, Epistein convincing someone to look the other way while he killed himself looks most likely.

[The Romulan Republic]

Maybe, but:

1. How do you account for him being in a cell without a surveilance camera?

2. Note that suicide and someone wanting him dead are not mutually exclusive. People can be pressured by threats or harassment to take their own lives. Or Epstein might have been genuinely suicidal, and someone might have decided to facilitate his death for their own reasons. Maybe its not likely, but its possible.

The problem with Occam's Razor is that the real world is a complicated, messy place, and the simplest explanation isn't always the correct one.

But like I said earlier, it scarcely matters now. Maybe he did off himself. Maybe he bribed someone to let it happen. Its not impossible, or even terribly implausible, given his situation. But given the nature of this case, a verdict of suicide will always be met with intense doubt and disbelief, regardless of evidence.

Either way, his victims are once more cheated, this time of their day in court and their chance to see Justice done.

[bilateralrope]

1. How do you account for him being in a cell without a surveilance camera?

How many of the cells in the prison have surveillance cameras ?

My guess is that the lack of a camera is normal for that type of cell.

[The Romulan Republic]

1. How do you account for him being in a cell without a surveilance camera?

How many of the cells in the prison have surveillance cameras ?

My guess is that the lack of a camera is normal for that type of cell.

That would be a question I'd very much like to know the answer to.

In other news:

https://globalnews.ca/news/5780478/jeff ... e-maxwell/

She’s been called Jeffrey Epstein’s madam, the woman who recruited girls for his sexual appetites, and at times his social planner and household organizer in places ranging from New York to Palm Beach, Florida.

Ghislaine Maxwell, the daughter of a British publishing magnate who died under mysterious circumstances, is one of the most prominent figures left from the Epstein orbit after his suicide in jail while awaiting trial on sex trafficking charges.

And she could well be a co-conspirator now in the cross hairs of federal prosecutors, who have made clear the case is far from over.

“If I were drafting an indictment against her, it would be the same conspiracy to traffic in underage minors,” said David S. Weinstein, a former federal prosecutor now in private practice in Miami. “That’s what it is. That’s what the conspiracy would be.”

An attorney for Maxwell did not respond Friday to a request for comment.

Maxwell, 57, is an elusive character whose father, publisher Robert Maxwell, died in 1991 after falling off his yacht near the Canary Islands. It turned out that he had illegally looted pension funds from his businesses, according to news accounts at the time.

The name of that yacht: Lady Ghislaine.

A Robert Maxwell biographer, Tom Bower, says Ghislaine Maxwell was the youngest of his children and a favourite of her father — hence, the yacht’s name.

“I think in his home, she never really learned the difference between right and wrong,” Bower told National Public Radio recently. “And the other tragedy for her was that she was dominated by him, and she learned from him to worship wealth and money and power and influence and really had very little sentiment for what might be called the little people.”

Eventually, Maxwell landed in Epstein’s world in the wealthy enclave of Palm Beach and bought a home in Manhattan, where Epstein also had an opulent mansion worth as much as $77 million. According to lawsuits filed by Epstein accusers, she became a recruiter of young girls for Epstein, as well as his household manager and social circuit organizer.

In Florida, Epstein pleaded guilty to prostitution-related charges with minors in 2008 and served 13 months in jail, where he was allowed out on work release almost every day. At the time, his lawyers reached a non-prosecution agreement with the Justice Department that spared him a potential life prison sentence if convicted on federal charges.

It was after the Miami Herald published stories last year that New York prosecutors took up the case and won an indictment against Epstein, 66, for trafficking in minors, carrying a potential 45-year prison sentence. While that was pending, Epstein killed himself in jail last Saturday.

That was only one more part of a sordid saga spanning decades, with Maxwell a key part of it, court documents show.

Juan Alessi, who managed Epstein’s home in Palm Beach for years, said in a deposition that Maxwell was essentially the lady of the house.

“She would tell me, I am going to take care of the house,” Alessi said in the deposition, adding later that he drove Maxwell to spas around South Florida to look for young women who could do “massages” for Epstein — their code for sexual acts.

“I remember one occasion or two occasions she would say to me, ‘Juan, give me a list of all the spas in Palm Beach County,'” Alessi said. “And I will drive her from one to the other one.”

In one of the lawsuits, Virginia Roberts Guiffre laid out in detail what was believed to be Maxwell’s role in Epstein’s alleged sex trafficking ring, which other women have echoed in similar claims. Guiffre, 15 at the time, says she was working at the Mar-a-Lago club owned by future President Donald Trump when she was approached by Maxwell about a way to earn good money: learn massage therapy and get to know Epstein as a man who could give her a bright future.

Giuffre says in a sworn affidavit that she was trained by Maxwell and Epstein to become “everything a man wanted me to be” and that she was flown on Epstein’s private planes to his properties in New Mexico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Paris and New York. Guiffre also says Maxwell arranged meetings for sex in London and elsewhere with Britain’s Prince Andrew.

Buckingham Palace has denied any wrongdoing by the prince, but there is a photo in court records showing Andrew with his arm around Giuffre’s waist with Maxwell smiling happily in the background.

“Ghislaine Maxwell was heavily involved in the illegal sex. I understood her to be a very powerful person,” Guiffre said in the affidavit. “She used Epstein’s money and he used her name and connections to gain power and prestige.”

Maxwell has vehemently denied claims by Guiffre and the others in court documents. “The allegations made against me are abhorrent and entirely untrue and I ask that they stop,” she said in a 2011 news release.

Maxwell has said nothing publicly since Epstein’s death and could not be reached for comment.

Maxwell is not charged with any crime, but New York prosecutors have said that Epstein’s death does not end their investigation into who might have helped him gain access to so many dozens of girls. There are other names on that list who could face prosecution, as well.

The whereabouts of Maxwell are also mysterious. News reports had her living in Britain, Paris and with a tech CEO in Massachusetts, but he told reporters this week that was not true. And then Thursday, the New York Post published a story with photos saying Maxwell was spotted eating at an In-N-Out burger restaurant in Los Angeles while reading a book about secret CIA operatives.

In any event, lawyers for Epstein’s victims say Maxwell will not skate away from her past.

“It’s very important to hold all Epstein enablers accountable,” said attorney Lisa Bloom, who has filed lawsuits against Epstein’s estate on behalf of several of his accusers. “Justice for victims includes justice for everyone who knowingly made his predations possible.”

© 2019 The Canadian Press

So her father died under "mysterious circumstances", huh? I can't help but wonder if its going to turn out to run in the family.

Also a video attached to the article shows Trump calling on Barr to open a full investigation into the Epstein case. I'm guessing that's code for "Try to pin it on the Clintons". We'll get no reliable investigation from Lickspittle Barr.

[Broomstick]

Guys, not to interrupt a good cynicism fest but you realize he was probably in Rich White Collar Criminal jail, right?

No, he wasn't. He was in the Metropolitan Correctional Center in Manhattan along with all the other riff-raff. His cell, like the others, has been described as cramped, dank, and amply supplied with rodents. On hot days it would be hot, because the air conditioning in the place was crap. He was being held like a common criminal and I have no doubt it was horrible for him.

[Broomstick]

- Putting Epstein into solitary afterwards, instead of being put back in with a cellmate (like they promised the DOJ) only makes sense if somebody wanted Epstein dead.

Even if he wasn't rich and well-known with a potential enemy list of the rich and powerful, being accused of raping children puts him at risk in the US penal system. It's standard to house that sort of sex criminal separately from the "general population" in the US so the accused doesn't wind up dead.

So my thoughts are:
- If there was any bribery to let Epstein commit suicide, he's the person I think most likely to have bribed someone.

That's actually a good point - Epstein certainly had the money to do that, and the lawyers/cronies to help him out with it.

- I want to know how often guards at the prison skip checks and fake logbook entries. Not just the two that should have been watching when Epstein killed himself.

If they're understaffed, overworked, and exhausted probably a lot more common than anyone would like.

[Lord Revan]

- Putting Epstein into solitary afterwards, instead of being put back in with a cellmate (like they promised the DOJ) only makes sense if somebody wanted Epstein dead.

Even if he wasn't rich and well-known with a potential enemy list of the rich and powerful, being accused of raping children puts him at risk in the US penal system. It's standard to house that sort of sex criminal separately from the "general population" in the US so the accused doesn't wind up dead.

and that's not just in US prisons either, I know of 1 case of a child molestor (and child murderer as well) asking to be in solitary confiment to avoid bullying from "general population" prisoners (and as well possible attempts on his life).

Also I know of another case my mother told me of child molestor she knew as a child (she wasn't a victim herself, but the perp was a janitor in the house she lived at the time and IIRC she implied that she knew one of the victims) who hanged himself after being released from prison due the mistreatment he had endured from other prisoners

Yeah it's pretty much universal that even prisoners consider child molestors to be the lowest scum possible and worthy of only contempt. So you there doesn't have to be political motive for Epstein's death, it could be simply be the case of other prisoners showing what they thought of pedos and that leading to the end result we got.

[bilateralrope]

- Putting Epstein into solitary afterwards, instead of being put back in with a cellmate (like they promised the DOJ) only makes sense if somebody wanted Epstein dead.

Even if he wasn't rich and well-known with a potential enemy list of the rich and powerful, being accused of raping children puts him at risk in the US penal system. It's standard to house that sort of sex criminal separately from the "general population" in the US so the accused doesn't wind up dead.

True. General population would be a bad idea. But there is the middle ground of giving him a permanent cellmate. Someone who doesn't want him dead for whatever reason. Even if it's just the promise of a reward afterwards and the knowledge that, should the forensics come back and say murder, the list of suspects will be really short.