"Anything you can do, I can do better..."

[Iceberg]

Banks are going to stop dealing with the US government sooner or later. You can't keep borrowing money when you already owe 70% of your annual productivity. If the government doesn't stop borrowing money, it will go bankrupt and that will be the end of the United States of America - and the Republicans have proven by their huge deficit spending that they don't have the guts to make the hard choices that might alienate voters but WILL save our country.

Yes yes we know that this is going to happen sooner or later....but you
seem to forget that your idol, Clinton, never really did balance the budget,
but only "balanced" it by using tax revenue projections and by dipping into
the Social Security fund.

He had eight fucking years with which to balance it, and about four
years in which any cuts would have been enthuastically parroted by
the Republican Majority in congress.

Fuck off and die, Shep. We're not talking about Clinton and you goddamn well know it. We're talking about WHAT BUSH PLANS TO DO TO FIX THE MESS THAT HE AND THE REPUBLICANS MADE.

[Iceberg]

Oh yeah, and he wasn't dealing with a global war.

Neither is George W. General counterinsurgency and intelligence efforts combined with short police-action wars do not add up to a global war, certainly not on the scale that FDR or Woodrow Wilson had to deal with.

[Joe]

He's not responsible for the enormous liability that our government owes, he's only responsible for his own spending.

[Stravo]

Iceberg you should know better that the state of this country's finances and ecnomy does NOT happen in a vacuum, things don't stop and wait for the next presidency. Clinton's economic "miracle" was sputtering badly by the end of his presidency and we all knew even when it was first announced that this surplus was nothing more than accounting smoke and mirrors.

[Iceberg]

He's not responsible for the enormous liability that our government owes, he's only responsible for his own spending.

Every president is responsible for the debt that he inherits from the previous president, as well as his own spending (and Bush's spendthrift habits have been pretty bad, too, so I wouldn't want to call attention to them if I were you). It's each Administration's, and each Congress's responsibility to pay down the debt that they inherited from the previous Administration and the previous Congress.

The government owes too much money - it's been in a pattern of deficit spending for too many years, and it doesn't look inclined to get out of that pattern anytime in the near future.

[Joe]

Every president is responsible for the debt that he inherits from the previous president, as well as his own spending (and Bush's spendthrift habits have been pretty bad, too, so I wouldn't want to call attention to them if I were you). It's each Administration's, and each Congress's responsibility to pay down the debt that they inherited from the previous Administration and the previous Congress.

I meant that Dubya isn't responsible for the creation of any debt other than that created by his own spending. Which he isn't.

If every President is responsible for the debt of previous administrations, then why did you just chastise Shep for bringing up Clinton's failure to pay the debt his administration perished? If you want to harp on Bush and the Republicans for failing to pay down the debt, fine, and I probably agree with you on that (I too do not approve of the biggest spender since LBJ who now inhabits the White House). But you're not being fair in glossing over the fact that Clinton did the same thing, and in doing so left Dubya with an even bigger problem than it was at the beginning of the Clinton years.

And it is Democratic social programs, namely Social Security and Medicare, that are going to bankrupt us, not defense spending.

[MKSheppard]

Fuck off and die, Shep. We're not talking about Clinton and you goddamn well know it. We're talking about WHAT BUSH PLANS TO DO TO FIX THE MESS THAT HE AND THE REPUBLICANS MADE.

What mess? The Clinton surplus was smoke and mirrors, so there's
no way that Bush could have "destroyed" it like you so enthuastically
claim.

[Iceberg]

And it is Democratic social programs, namely Social Security and Medicare, that are going to bankrupt us, not defense spending.

Total federal spending expanded only 2.9% under Clinton in eight years - compare to the over 6% expansion we've seen after only two and a half under Dubya.

[Joe]

And it is Democratic social programs, namely Social Security and Medicare, that are going to bankrupt us, not defense spending.

Total federal spending expanded only 2.9% under Clinton in eight years - compare to the over 6% expansion we've seen after only two and a half under Dubya.

Clinton is responsible for the creation of neither Social Security nor Medicare.

And keep in mind that that 2.9% figure would be a lot higher if Clinton had gotten the national healthcare plan that he had wanted. During the later years gridlock was also a pretty considerable factor in holding spending down.

[Iceberg]

And it is Democratic social programs, namely Social Security and Medicare, that are going to bankrupt us, not defense spending.

Total federal spending expanded only 2.9% under Clinton in eight years - compare to the over 6% expansion we've seen after only two and a half under Dubya.

Clinton is responsible for the creation of neither Social Security nor Medicare.

This is true. Social Security was FDR's thing; I don't know if he also created medicare or if that was a later president; however, medicare at least is an objective social good - many people's health coverage is curtailed severely or terminates completely when they retire (especially in these days when the higher offices increasingly see Human Resources as an asset to be expensed), so having mandatory Federal health coverage for retirees is a Good Thing.

And keep in mind that that 2.9% figure would be a lot higher if Clinton had gotten the national healthcare plan that he had wanted.

That's because Hillary's NHC plan was a clusterfuck, though, not because of any particular problem with the idea of having an NHC plan. I like the idea of having a national healthcare plan - just not necessarily a free/100% tax-subsidized one.

[Joe]

This is true. Social Security was FDR's thing; I don't know if he also created medicare or if that was a later president; however, medicare at least is an objective social good - many people's health coverage is curtailed severely or terminates completely when they retire (especially in these days when the higher offices increasingly see Human Resources as an asset to be expensed), so having mandatory Federal health coverage for retirees is a Good Thing.

Medicare was LBJ.

[Iceberg]

Medicare was LBJ.

Heh, go figure. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[MKSheppard]

Medicare was LBJ.

Heh, go figure. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Not digitals

I have a clock that if you push the wrong button, it starts blinking
12:00

[Worlds Spanner]

Oh yeah, and he wasn't dealing with a global war.

Neither is George W. General counterinsurgency and intelligence efforts combined with short police-action wars do not add up to a global war, certainly not on the scale that FDR or Woodrow Wilson had to deal with.

THANK YOU!

[Iceberg]

The final tally for this weekend's Dean Team fundraiser:

$508,640.31, from 9,621 individual contributors

Length of fundraiser: 80.5 hours (5PM ET Friday to 1:30AM ET Tuesday)

Average donation: $52.87

Average cash-in per hour: $6,381.51

Average donors per hour: 119.52

[SirNitram]

Now that's a beating. When matching funds kick in, this is going to be simply insane.

We will now here that it's 'wrong' to use the matching fund laws, by the same group who feels it is 'right' to buy political influence, because it is legal. Feel the irony!

[Stravo]

The final tally for this weekend's Dean Team fundraiser:

$508,640.31, from 9,621 individual contributors

Length of fundraiser: 80.5 hours (5PM ET Friday to 1:30AM ET Tuesday)

Average donation: $52.87

Average cash-in per hour: $6,381.51

Average donors per hour: 119.52

The look on Iceberg's face when Dean is OWNED: priceless

[LadyTevar]

Why are we taling about this kind of stuff already? Hell, at least wait for the political commercials to start airing...

[SirNitram]

Why are we taling about this kind of stuff already? Hell, at least wait for the political commercials to start airing...

I thought you saw one already? I know you noted Bush was already attempting to get re-elected..

[Vympel]

They have started airing. Doesn't anyone remember Shrub's obnoxious exercise in strutting his stupid ass on the deck of the Abraham Lincoln?

[SirNitram]

They have started airing. Doesn't anyone remember Shrub's obnoxious exercise in strutting his stupid ass on the deck of the Abraham Lincoln?

Oh yes, that moronic stunt.

[LadyTevar]

Why are we taling about this kind of stuff already? Hell, at least wait for the political commercials to start airing...

I thought you saw one already? I know you noted Bush was already attempting to get re-elected..

That was something on CNN... I'm talking from Democrats.

[Iceberg]

The final tally for this weekend's Dean Team fundraiser:

$508,640.31, from 9,621 individual contributors

Length of fundraiser: 80.5 hours (5PM ET Friday to 1:30AM ET Tuesday)

Average donation: $52.87

Average cash-in per hour: $6,381.51

Average donors per hour: 119.52

The look on Iceberg's face when Dean is OWNED: priceless

10,000 contributors is a significant chunk of people.

More importantly, the 10,000 contributors that Dean tapped this weekend are WELL below their semiannual contribution limit, and can contribute again if called on - the 150 contributors that Cheney called on for his fundraiser on Monday are now tapped out until the general election season starts.

Most people can afford fifty bucks a month - so Dean could conceivably do this fundraiser again every month until November and raise another two million dollars that way - and nearly all of that money will be eligable for matching funds, raising five million dollars for the cost of raising 2.5 (whereas Bush's $2,000 luncheons get a relatively paltry amount of matching funds, because only the first $250 a person contributes are eligable to be matched). That's not counting normal campaign donations; just from internet fundraising activities.

[Iceberg]

Now that's a beating. When matching funds kick in, this is going to be simply insane.

About a million dollars for donations plus matching - and the overhead for an internet fundraiser is extremely low - the cost of feeding your admins plus the cost to run your computers. Cheney's smaller amount of matching funds ($250 * 150 = $37,500.00) doesn't even begin to cover the cost of putting on this fundraiser (the overhead of a fundraiser is usually calculated at about 62.5% of the fundraiser's take, meaning that after overhead is deducted and before matching funds kick in, Bush-Cheney got $112,500 for the fundraiser).

By EVERY measure, Dean came out FAR on top.

We will now here that it's 'wrong' to use the matching fund laws, by the same group who feels it is 'right' to buy political influence, because it is legal. Feel the irony!

Yes, we almost certainly will.

[SirNitram]

The sad thing is this thread reminds me of 'Timecop', and that the villain was basically right. Money does buy elections, depressingly. I'm just glad Bush hasn't got the USS Eldridge put back together to gather funds.