Hamas founder killed in Israeli airstrike

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-03-23 11:21am

BoredShirtless wrote:Look through a pair of binoculars without a tripod to see why it'd be next to impossible for anyone to snipe from a helicopter.

Also, there's so much turbulence from helicoptor rotors that it makes sniping out an individual impossible. In Vietnam, snipers on choppers were used, but they used tracer bullets and then had a second chopper, this one a gunship, move in on whatever target they designated and saturated the area with weapons fire. It was all but impossible to hit an individual with a sniper, and impossible to do it with even a MODICRUM of consistency.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-23 11:27am

Master of Ossus wrote:Also, there's so much turbulence from helicoptor rotors that it makes sniping out an individual impossible. In Vietnam, snipers on choppers were used, but they used tracer bullets and then had a second chopper, this one a gunship, move in on whatever target they designated and saturated the area with weapons fire. It was all but impossible to hit an individual with a sniper, and impossible to do it with even a MODICRUM of consistency.

Too fucking bad. You don't blow up all the innocent bystanders in an entire area in order to get one man. If they can't figure out a way to do it, that's their goddamned problem. Frankly, I think the Israelis simply think that the Palestinians deserve it, so they don't make a genuine attempt to limit civilian casualties; they view it as an excuse to "accidentally" kill more of them.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-23 12:33pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:Also, there's so much turbulence from helicoptor rotors that it makes sniping out an individual impossible. In Vietnam, snipers on choppers were used, but they used tracer bullets and then had a second chopper, this one a gunship, move in on whatever target they designated and saturated the area with weapons fire. It was all but impossible to hit an individual with a sniper, and impossible to do it with even a MODICRUM of consistency.
Too fucking bad. You don't blow up all the innocent bystanders in an entire area in order to get one man. If they can't figure out a way to do it, that's their goddamned problem. Frankly, I think the Israelis simply think that the Palestinians deserve it, so they don't make a genuine attempt to limit civilian casualties; they view it as an excuse to "accidentally" kill more of them.

Exactly. For example, they could have deployed a snipper on the ground. Palestinians and Israelis look the same, so an Israeli IMO wouldn't have had a problem getting in, blending in, then getting out of Gaza.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-03-23 12:40pm

Opinion in the Telegraph today was that the atatck was in part to show that even though Israel is planning to pull out of Gaza, its not letting up on Hamas, in order to prevent them claiming victory if they do pull out.

Perhaps they thought a few missiles sent a better message?

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-23 12:48pm

You can look at the Israel-Palestinian conflict as a game of chess. By forcing the Palestinians to "declare war", Israel now has a great excuse to not just stay but to reinforce their presence in Gaza. Anyone who actually believes Sharon is serious about pulling out was either born yesterday, or has a very short memory. One should always wait for results before believing anything said by the Israelis.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-03-23 12:51pm

BoredShirtless wrote:You can look at the Israel-Palestinian conflict as a game of chess. By forcing the Palestinians to "declare war", Israel now has a great excuse to not just stay but to reinforce their presence in Gaza. Anyone who actually believes Sharon is serious about pulling out was either born yesterday, or has a very short memory. One should always wait for results before believing anything said by the Israelis.

True, but I can always hope he might actually do it.

Problem is, if he actually does, some fuckers will carry on bombings, and give Israel the perfect excuse to go right back in, with a renewed "justification".

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-03-23 01:12pm

BoredShirtless wrote:Exactly. For example, they could have deployed a snipper on the ground. Palestinians and Israelis look the same, so an Israeli IMO wouldn't have had a problem getting in, blending in, then getting out of Gaza.

On the ground? how long do you think he would live?

Look the same? Are you smoking? Maybe to an outsider, but from the inside, there is NO differnce.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-23 01:18pm

Ace Pace wrote:
BoredShirtless wrote:Exactly. For example, they could have deployed a snipper on the ground. Palestinians and Israelis look the same, so an Israeli IMO wouldn't have had a problem getting in, blending in, then getting out of Gaza.
On the ground? how long do you think he would live?

Not literally on the ground. From a rooftop for example.

Look the same? Are you smoking? Maybe to an outsider, but from the inside, there is NO differnce.

my point exactly!

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-03-23 03:18pm

Darth Wong wrote:Too fucking bad. You don't blow up all the innocent bystanders in an entire area in order to get one man. If they can't figure out a way to do it, that's their goddamned problem. Frankly, I think the Israelis simply think that the Palestinians deserve it, so they don't make a genuine attempt to limit civilian casualties; they view it as an excuse to "accidentally" kill more of them.

Oh, I agree that the Israelis should have done something else, and that teh missile attack led to a lot more collatoral damage, and a lot more civilian casualties, than should have been acceptable. However, a sniper attack from a helicopter is not feasible. They would have needed to do something else.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-03-23 03:21pm

BoredShirtless wrote:Exactly. For example, they could have deployed a snipper on the ground. Palestinians and Israelis look the same, so an Israeli IMO wouldn't have had a problem getting in, blending in, then getting out of Gaza.

Israelis and Palestinians do NOT look the same. Now, I don't know what the fuck was going on with this operation, and whether they just picked him up on one of their aerial searches or whether this had been planned for a while, but assuming that they knew where he lived (and they probably did--the guy's in a fucking wheelchair), a sniper still could have been sent to the area and still could have been effective.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-03-23 03:25pm

Master of Ossus wrote: Now, I don't know what the fuck was going on with this operation, and whether they just picked him up on one of their aerial searches or whether this had been planned for a while, but assuming that they knew where he lived (and they probably did--the guy's in a fucking wheelchair), a sniper still could have been sent to the area and still could have been effective.

Would he have got out alive though?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-03-23 03:38pm

Sharp-kun wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote: Now, I don't know what the fuck was going on with this operation, and whether they just picked him up on one of their aerial searches or whether this had been planned for a while, but assuming that they knew where he lived (and they probably did--the guy's in a fucking wheelchair), a sniper still could have been sent to the area and still could have been effective.
Would he have got out alive though?

I have no way of knowing. I don't know what kind of security Mr. Cripple had. However, in the past Israeli troops have usually been able to move through Palestinian areas to accomplish objectives and then move out without massive casualties. Granted, it would have made the mission more dangerous and might have made it more expensive, but I don't see civilian casualties as being an acceptable trade-off when another alternative was so viable and potentially so easily implemented.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-03-23 03:41pm

what about using the helicopter´s guns? they might have caused collateral damage, but they would most certainly not have blown up that much.

or are helicopter mounted guns not preceice enough or something?

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-03-23 03:44pm

Master of Ossus wrote: I have no way of knowing. I don't know what kind of security Mr. Cripple had. However, in the past Israeli troops have usually been able to move through Palestinian areas to accomplish objectives and then move out without massive casualties. Granted, it would have made the mission more dangerous and might have made it more expensive, but I don't see civilian casualties as being an acceptable trade-off when another alternative was so viable and potentially so easily implemented.

Its not so much his security, but I'd have thought the reaction of everyone else immediatly afterwards would have been very bad for any Israeliin the vicinity. There could have been even more civilian casualties just ensuring he got out. I can't remember the count for this attack, but wasn't it below most of Israels others?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-03-23 03:47pm

salm wrote:what about using the helicopter´s guns? they might have caused collateral damage, but they would most certainly not have blown up that much.

I have no way of knowing whether those weapons would have done more, less, or the same amount of damage and caused the same number of civilian casualties, but helicopter-mounted guns are nasty things. I tend to think that if the guy was rolling around in public, they would have also caused a lot of damage.

or are helicopter mounted guns not preceice enough or something?

No. Helicopter-mounted weapons tend to be fairly precise in that they can easily target a single vehicle. I don't think they would be good enough to shoot one person out of a crowd, but they may have been another option that was better than what the Israelis ended up doing.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2004-03-23 07:24pm

salm wrote:what about using the helicopter´s guns? they might have caused collateral damage, but they would most certainly not have blown up that much.

Helicopters are loaded up with machine guns and gatling guns. Hardly one shot one kill weapons.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-03-24 09:46am

Anyone get the impression that this guy is going to be more of a thorn in Israel's side dead than he ever was alive?

Also, Hamas denies it threatened the US

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-03-24 09:54am

Vympel wrote:Anyone get the impression that this guy is going to be more of a thorn in Israel's side dead than he ever was alive?

Also, Hamas denies it threatened the US

This shows the idiocy of the American mentality that doesn't understand how Hamas think and how they plan

ahhh Al-Jazzera.... Have they hired Baghdad Bob yet?

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-24 09:56am

Vympel wrote:Also, Hamas denies it threatened the US

Is the United States the only source for that threat? I don't remember any oganisation threatening the United States.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-24 09:59am

Col. Crackpot wrote:
This shows the idiocy of the American mentality that doesn't understand how Hamas think and how they plan
ahhh Al-Jazzera.... Have they hired Baghdad Bob yet?

What's that supposed to mean?

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-03-24 09:59am

Vympel wrote:Anyone get the impression that this guy is going to be more of a thorn in Israel's side dead than he ever was alive?

I expect it to die down quite a bit within a month.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-24 10:03am

Sharp-kun wrote:
Vympel wrote:Anyone get the impression that this guy is going to be more of a thorn in Israel's side dead than he ever was alive?
I expect it to die down quite a bit within a month.

You're funny. The guy replacing Yassin is even more hardline. Israel just bought itself at least several months of big big trouble.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-03-24 10:13am

BoredShirtless wrote:
Sharp-kun wrote:
Vympel wrote:Anyone get the impression that this guy is going to be more of a thorn in Israel's side dead than he ever was alive?
I expect it to die down quite a bit within a month.
You're funny. The guy replacing Yassin is even more hardline. Israel just bought itself at least several months of big big trouble.

I was refering to the mass Palestinian public outcry over it. The majority of those that were out protesting, despite their claims, are not going to all go and blow themselves up.

Bets on how long until the new guy bites it?

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-03-24 10:13am

Col. Crackpot wrote:
ahhh Al-Jazzera.... Have they hired Baghdad Bob yet?

They are quoting someone in that quote, btw. What's wrong with that?

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-24 10:26am

Sharp-kun wrote:Bets on how long until the new guy bites it?

That's too tough a bet IMO. Israel is just so crafty, they may wait for Hamas to make the next move or they may kill him ASAP....even money!