2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

[TimothyC]

Final vote total:
Trump: 304
Clinton: 227
Powell: 3
Kasich: 1
Paul: 1
Faith Spotted Eagle: 1
Sanders: 1

[Soontir C'boath]

What exactly is democracy to you? Is it the time when women and minorities weren't allowed to vote? When there was a time slaves were explicitly written as worth less than white men in the Constitution? When there was a time segregation and Jim Crow laws are acceptable? When Andrew Jackson decides to kill Native Americans at will? When America disregards treaties made with Native Americans even now? When Japanese Americans are put into interment camps by none other than Franklin Roosevelt? When ID voter laws are being passed now to disenfranchised minorities and gerrymandering is prevalent? When people in Guantanamo are not given due process?

So, you'll have to excuse me, if Trump, while perhaps a hyper-extension of all that shit, at the end of the day, won't really mean much different from all the fuckery that has happened in this country.

[The Romulan Republic]

What exactly is democracy to you? Is it the time when women and minorities weren't allowed to vote? When there was a time slaves were explicitly written as worth less than white men in the Constitution? When there was a time segregation and Jim Crow laws are acceptable? When Andrew Jackson decides to kill Native Americans at will? When America disregards treaties made with Native Americans even now? When Japanese Americans are put into interment camps by none other than Franklin Roosevelt? When ID voter laws are being passed now to disenfranchised minorities and gerrymandering is prevalent?

Was this directed at me?

First off, suggesting that I am okay with slavery, segregation, genocide, etc. is a disgusting straw man and ad hominem, and an attempt to deflect my criticism of Trump. I will not entertain it further. I dare say you know damn well that I do not condone any of the above in the slightest.

Secondly, most of the things that you list above happened decades or centuries ago. While our system was far from perfect, and we had ups and downs, we could until recently at least argue that we were, for the most part, moving in the right direction. Towards greater democracy.

Trump's election (against the popular vote, and with the aid of elements of the FBI and a foreign despot) is part of a sharp and dangerous reversal we are currently undergoing. Do you deny this?

So, you'll have to excuse me, if Trump, while perhaps a hyper-extension of all that shit, at the end of the day, won't really mean much different from all the fuckery that has happened in this country.

"Our past was unjust, so it doesn't matter if our future is too!"

Yeah, fuck that.

[Soontir C'boath]

I am not asking that you are ok with it you dumbass. I am telling you what the face of democracy can be. You are a privileged little shit to believe that attaining Utopia must always trend positive in your lifetime. Especially for many that is not the case now including with Obama in office.

[The Romulan Republic]

I am not asking that you are ok with it you dumbass. I am telling you what the face of democracy can be.

Those things were not democratic. And neither is what is happening now. The one does not mitigate the other.

You are a privileged little shit

What do you know about me or my circumstances in life to so pass judgement on me?

Also, I must admit that while ones' experiences can certainly colour ones' opinion, and that should be taken into account, it is my view that outright dismissing someone's argument purely on the basis that they're "privileged" is nothing but an ad hominem fallacy (attacking the speaker rather than the argument).

to believe that attaining Utopia must always trend positive in your lifetime.

Again, you prefer to argue on misrepresentation and character attacks rather than the actual issues. Which probably says something about the strength of your position, whatever the fuck it actually is.

Apparently... anyone who actually has the audacity to object to a decline in democracy and civil liberties is just a stupid privileged idealist with a utopian fantasy? No room between "Utopian fantasy" and "accept whatever despotism Trump wants to shove up our collective ass holes"?

I mean... you're literally condemning and attacking me for suggesting that a decrease in democracy and civil liberties is a bad thing. Because we've always had an unjust society and therefore we should just shut up and accept it. Or something.

Or... wait...

You were Bernie or Bust, weren't you?

Maybe you just don't like facing the fact that people like you put us in this mess. Easier on the conscience to just say "this is the way its always been, so it doesn't matter"?

Especially for many that is not the case now including with Obama in office.

Alright then. Let's try to cut through your ad hominems and deflections and get to the point:

1. Do you deny that Trump's election, along with other current trends, represent a sharp decline in democracy, security, and equality for most Americans?

2. If not, are you okay with the present trend?

Yes. Or. No.

[Soontir C'boath]

I am not asking that you are ok with it you dumbass. I am telling you what the face of democracy can be.

Those things were not democratic. And neither is what is happening now. The one does not mitigate the other.

You know that's not my argument.

You are a privileged little shit

What do you know about me or my circumstances in life to so pass judgement on me?

Also, I must admit that while ones' experiences can certainly colour ones' opinion, and that should be taken into account, it is my view that outright dismissing someone's argument purely on the basis that they're "privileged" is nothing but an ad hominem fallacy (attacking the speaker rather than the argument).

Again missing the point.

to believe that attaining Utopia must always trend positive in your lifetime.

Again, you prefer to argue on misrepresentation and character attacks rather than the actual issues. Which probably says something about the strength of your position, whatever the fuck it actually is.

Apparently... anyone who actually has the audacity to object to a decline in democracy and civil liberties is just a stupid privileged idealist with a utopian fantasy? No room between "Utopian fantasy" and "accept whatever despotism Trump wants to shove up our collective ass holes"?

I mean... you're literally condemning and attacking me for suggesting that a decrease in democracy and civil liberties is a bad thing. Because we've always had an unjust society and therefore we should just shut up and accept it. Or something.

Or... wait...

You were Bernie or Bust, weren't you?

Maybe you just don't like facing the fact that people like you put us in this mess. Easier on the conscience to just say "this is the way its always been, so it doesn't matter"?

Missing the point again, dumbass.

Especially for many that is not the case now including with Obama in office.

Alright then. Let's try to cut through your ad hominems and deflections and get to the point:

1. Do you deny that Trump's election, along with other current trends, represent a sharp decline in democracy, security, and equality for most Americans?

2. If not, are you okay with the present trend?

Yes. Or. No.

You are missing the point again. You are being hyperbolic as many have accused you before of being. I am not asking you not to fight back against Trump. It would actually be quite the opposite. However, at the same time, you go beyond the pale. Calling Trump the death of Democracy? Get over yourself.

[The Romulan Republic]

Perhaps we misunderstood each other somewhat, but if so, I believe it was (on my end at least) an honest misunderstanding, contrary to your assertion.

Hyperbolic- perhaps. But you know what? At some point, as I said, I'd rather overstate than understate the threat.

I am tired of people acting like Trump is just another lousy President, just business as usual. Trump has conned a lot of people. Some he has conned into thinking he represents their interests. Others he has conned into thinking that maybe he won't really be that bad, by contradicting himself and dangling bipartisan/moderate cabinet picks before stuffing the cabinet full of hardliners and his rich buddies. The very fact that virtually no Electors were willing to defect against Trump despite him being a demagogue who campaigned on violating the Constitution, a confessed sexual predator, the loser of the popular vote by a wide margin, and likely elected with the help of illegal interference by a foreign despot, shows how effectively this con has worked.

And frankly, if he actually did implement everything he's said he will, it would mean the death of democracy, as we understand the term. Hell, just the increases in voter supression the Republicans are sure to enact with complete control of the Federal Government, combined with Trump's goal of cracking down on journalists and the further gutting of any regulation of campaign finance, will probably make it next to impossible for anyone but Trump and the Republicans to win in four years.

And his habit of praising and emulating dictatorial demagogues certainly raises the question of how far he will go.

I hope its hyperbole, really, I do. But I'm not sure that it is. And the danger of waiting until their is no doubt that democracy is dying before voicing that fear is that if you wait until you're sure... its probably too late.

[bilateralrope]

One of the problems with strict majoritarianism is that if you get 50%+1 of the votes/representatives/whatever, you don't get 50%+1 of policy-making power. You get all of it. (This is a problem in varying degrees with any democratic system.) And that's problematic bad, especially if the people who get left out are highly concentrated.

The EC doesn't fix that problem. It just makes some people count more than others, leading to less than 50% of the vote getting all the power.

What exactly is democracy to you?

Everybody having an equal say over who rules them on voting day.

[The Romulan Republic]

Democracy means rule by the people. A perfect democracy would be direct democracy by referendum. However, due to the practical issues that entails, representative democracy is an acceptable compromise, as long as elections are regular and fair, freedom of expression and information are protected (after all, one cannot make good choices if one is not informed), and all adult citizens have an equal right to vote.

[Soontir C'boath]

Perhaps we misunderstood each other somewhat, but if so, I believe it was (on my end at least) an honest misunderstanding, contrary to your assertion.

Hyperbolic- perhaps. But you know what? At some point, as I said, I'd rather overstate than understate the threat.

I am tired of people acting like Trump is just another lousy President, just business as usual. Trump has conned a lot of people. Some he has conned into thinking he represents their interests.

Others he has conned into thinking that maybe he won't really be that bad, by contradicting himself and dangling bipartisan/moderate cabinet picks before stuffing the cabinet full of hardliners and his rich buddies. The very fact that virtually no Electors were willing to defect against Trump despite him being a demagogue who campaigned on violating the Constitution, a confessed sexual predator, the loser of the popular vote by a wide margin, and likely elected with the help of illegal interference by a foreign despot, shows how effectively this con has worked.

The same can be said of politicians in general. Democrat or Republican. While there were certainly progress on social issues, most legislation passed was not to the general public's benefit in recent decades and while this study only goes up to 2002 (meaning this includes Bill Clinton's years), things such as the bank bailouts seem to further that trend; Princeton via BBC

And frankly, if he actually did implement everything he's said he will, it would mean the death of democracy, as we understand the term. Hell, just the increases in voter supression the Republicans are sure to enact with complete control of the Federal Government,

Democrats have been losing state legislatures for years now and the majority are now Republican. It was always going to be bleak with them gerrymandering the shit out of those states.

combined with Trump's goal of cracking down on journalists

It was Bill who enacted the telecommunications act that allowed the media to be as monopolistic and corporatist as it is now.

and the further gutting of any regulation of campaign finance, will probably make it next to impossible for anyone but Trump and the Republicans to win in four years.

Hillary outspent Trump 2:1.

And his habit of praising and emulating dictatorial demagogues certainly raises the question of how far he will go.

I hope its hyperbole, really, I do. But I'm not sure that it is. And the danger of waiting until their is no doubt that democracy is dying before voicing that fear is that if you wait until you're sure... its probably too late.

If you haven't realized it yet with what I posted above, this is and was happening already. Long before Trump came into focus as a candidate.

[aerius]

Yankton is in South Dakota! Maybe we should go pot-dry during the election.

Hell no, you guys should have a 1/2 sale on pot during the elections, or have a special where you get a free quarter with every bong purchase.

What the fuck, Washington? Four Electors voting for random candidates who couldn't possibly win even in a mass-defection scenario, never ran, and won neither the state nor the nationwide popular vote?

Hope your empty gesture makes you feel good about yourselves while Herr Trump takes power.

Careful what you ask for, cupcake. You got a bunch of protesters & pundits demanding the electors to vote with their conscience, so they did. I don't know about you, but I'd take Colin Powell and Faith Spotted Eagle over both Trump and Hitlery. Hell, I'd take Ron Paul for fuck's sake, and someone did.

[The Romulan Republic]

The same can be said of politicians in general. Democrat or Republican.

Please tell me you're not actually going with the God damn "they're all the same" narrative.

You know, the one that pretty much exists only so cynics can pat themselves on the back for being smarter than the "sheeple" and third partiers can feel good about wasting their votes.

While there were certainly progress on social issues, most legislation passed was not to the general public's benefit in recent decades and while this study only goes up to 2002 (meaning this includes Bill Clinton's years), things such as the bank bailouts seem to further that trend; Princeton via BBC

Yeah, you're not going to find me singing Bill Clinton's praises, generally, but the fact that this shit happened in the past to a lesser degree doesn't change the fact that it is speeding up and escalating now.

Its like seeing that you've been driving toward a cliff for a while, and acting like that means their's no cause to be alarmed when someone cuts the brakes.

Democrats have been losing state legislatures for years now and the majority are now Republican. It was always going to be bleak with them gerrymandering the shit out of those states.

See above.

Also, expect to see similar problems in Senate and Presidential races increasingly. They may not be able to gerrymander them the same way under the current system, but they can suppress the hell out of opposing media and the vote.

It was Bill who enacted the telecommunications act that allowed the media to be as monopolistic and corporatist as it is now.

Hardly the same as Trump's open contempt for the press, and his support for making it easier to sue journalists.

Why do you keep trying to shift the conversation onto how bad the Clintons are? I can't help thinking that a big part of why Trump won is that Hillary's critics were so caught up in how bad the Clintons are (both real and imagined), and in stopping Hillary, that they basically became blind to the fact that Trump has all of Clinton's flaws dialled up to eleven, plus a whole bunch of his own.

Again- yeah, their were problems before. Now they've gotten much, much worse.

Hillary outspent Trump 2:1.

Yeah, money isn't everything. But the gutting of campaign finance regulations sure isn't going to help anything.

If you haven't realized it yet with what I posted above, this is and was happening already. Long before Trump came into focus as a candidate.

As I said, we had problems before, but what's happening now is the equivalent of someone cutting the brake line. Trump is indeed part of a larger set of problems, but he will only make everything much worse.

I do think its amusing that you say I'm hyperbolic for suggesting that Trump could be the death of democracy, then counter by basically saying "well democracy was already dead".

[Soontir C'boath]

I do think its amusing that you say I'm hyperbolic for suggesting that Trump could be the death of democracy, then counter by basically saying "well democracy was already dead".

I am only following your conclusion. Your need to not look at what happened to this country historically to compare what's happening now is the disturbing part.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yankton is in South Dakota! Maybe we should go pot-dry during the election.

Hell no, you guys should have a 1/2 sale on pot during the elections, or have a special where you get a free quarter with every bong purchase.

What the fuck, Washington? Four Electors voting for random candidates who couldn't possibly win even in a mass-defection scenario, never ran, and won neither the state nor the nationwide popular vote?

Hope your empty gesture makes you feel good about yourselves while Herr Trump takes power.

Careful what you ask for, cupcake. You got a bunch of protesters & pundits demanding the electors to vote with their conscience, so they did. I don't know about you, but I'd take Colin Powell and Faith Spotted Eagle over both Trump and Hitlery. Hell, I'd take Ron Paul for fuck's sake, and someone did.

Addressed already. The insinuation of hypocracy on my part is as false as it is petty, as I pretty consistently said that if the EC rejected Trump, they should go for Hillary as the strongest alternative and the only one with a democratic mandate (winning the popular vote). But we know you don't really care about democracy.

Theoretically, I'd take almost anyone over Trump, but not everyone had the votes Hillary did.

And "Hitlery", really? This isn't Trump's twitter page.

Of course, if I compared Trump to Hitler, that would be outrageous, stupid hyperbole I'm sure.

[The Romulan Republic]

I do think its amusing that you say I'm hyperbolic for suggesting that Trump could be the death of democracy, then counter by basically saying "well democracy was already dead".

I am only following your conclusion. Your need to not look at what happened to this country historically to compare what's happening now is the disturbing part.

Um... what the fuck?

You can be disturbed by both the fact that our country had severe flaws historically, and that things are moving in the wrong direction now.

Again, your argument seems to be "Its always been bad, so its doesn't matter if its getting worse now." Or, as I said "We've been driving towards a cliff for a while, so it doesn't matter if someone cut the brake lines."

Or are you actually saying that Trump's election, and other recent events, do not represent a rapid move in the wrong direction?

[The Romulan Republic]

I admit, I'm curious to see if even one of the people who have been so eager to call me out for my "hyperbole" in comparing Trump to Hitler will say one word about aerius's use of "Hitlery".

[Flagg]

Yankton is in South Dakota! Maybe we should go pot-dry during the election.

Hell no, you guys should have a 1/2 sale on pot during the elections, or have a special where you get a free quarter with every bong purchase.

Normally I'd disagree, but I can't turn down free weed. Plus somehow, likely Satanism, the Washington Secretary of State manages to make ballots so easy to fill out, you can solo my hooka forb3 hours before and vote for the right asshole. But states in which a cannabis seed is a swift trip to the lethal injection needle you try to vote for Obama and end up somehow voting to secede.

What the fuck, Washington? Four Electors voting for random candidates who couldn't possibly win even in a mass-defection scenario, never ran, and won neither the state nor the nationwide popular vote?

Hope your empty gesture makes you feel good about yourselves while Herr Trump takes power.

eat my ass, Hillary lost on the 8th, the elecfuckoral college is a formality and if you really thought even 5% of the people who volunteered o take a Trump today where going to see the light then you're just as deluded as the chucklefucks who crayoned in a vote for Donnie Douchebag the Dickless Duckfucker.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yankton is in South Dakota! Maybe we should go pot-dry during the election.

Hell no, you guys should have a 1/2 sale on pot during the elections, or have a special where you get a free quarter with every bong purchase.

Normally I'd disagree, but I can't turn down free weed. Plus somehow, likely Satanism, the Washington Secretary of State manages to make ballots so easy to fill out, you can solo my hooka forb3 hours before and vote for the right asshole. But states in which a cannabis seed is a swift trip to the lethal injection needle you try to vote for Obama and end up somehow voting to secede.

What the fuck, Washington? Four Electors voting for random candidates who couldn't possibly win even in a mass-defection scenario, never ran, and won neither the state nor the nationwide popular vote?

Hope your empty gesture makes you feel good about yourselves while Herr Trump takes power.

eat my ass, Hillary lost on the 8th, the elecfuckoral college is a formality and if you really thought even 5% of the people who volunteered o take a Trump today where going to see the light then you're just as deluded as the chucklefucks who crayoned in a vote for Donnie Douchebag the Dickless Duckfucker.

Must you always try to pick fights for no reason?

No, I didn't expect the EC to do the right thing. But it could have, and I will judge each elector on the choice that they made.

I expected the EC to be a rubber stamp for a Russian takeover, and they lived down to my expectations.

[Flagg]

and the further gutting of any regulation of campaign finance, will probably make it next to impossible for anyone but Trump and the Republicans to win in four years.

Hillary outspent Trump 2:1.

Well, she did win the popular vote.

[Patroklos]

I admit, I'm curious to see if even one of the people who have been so eager to call me out for my "hyperbole" in comparing Trump to Hitler will say one word about aerius's use of "Hitlery".

He is making fun of you halfwit. Very obviously so and quite effectively.

[Flagg]

Hell no, you guys should have a 1/2 sale on pot during the elections, or have a special where you get a free quarter with every bong purchase.

Normally I'd disagree, but I can't turn down free weed. Plus somehow, likely Satanism, the Washington Secretary of State manages to make ballots so easy to fill out, you can solo my hooka forb3 hours before and vote for the right asshole. But states in which a cannabis seed is a swift trip to the lethal injection needle you try to vote for Obama and end up somehow voting to secede.

What the fuck, Washington? Four Electors voting for random candidates who couldn't possibly win even in a mass-defection scenario, never ran, and won neither the state nor the nationwide popular vote?

Hope your empty gesture makes you feel good about yourselves while Herr Trump takes power.

eat my ass, Hillary lost on the 8th, the elecfuckoral college is a formality and if you really thought even 5% of the people who volunteered o take a Trump today where going to see the light then you're just as deluded as the chucklefucks who crayoned in a vote for Donnie Douchebag the Dickless Duckfucker.

Must you always try to pick fights for no reason?

No, I didn't expect the EC to do the right thing. But it could have, and I will judge each elector on the choice that they made.

I expected the EC to be a rubber stamp for a Russian takeover, and they lived down to my expectations.

No reason? You attacked the state I live in. You talk of rubber stamping Russian takeover when I live within several ship-borne nuclear reactors most of the year due to Aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines so we're a high priority target should a US/Russian war break out (which is why I'm glad Putin has 3 digits of IQ over you).

Do you even live in the US right now? I mean I know you're a US citizen, but do you reside here? If not, your constant harping on and invective against unverified reports of Eeevil Russian hacks and what a shit POTUS Trump will be (which is not some sage wisdom, it's the writing on the wall) lead me to believe that if you aren't residing in the US ATM, you should arrange that to last another 8, 9 years.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm currently residing in Canada. What of it? Does that some how make me less an American citizen, or less entitled to an express an opinion on my country's politics?

Though I truly wish I was in the US right now. It would make it easier to take a more active role in campaigning against the likes of Trump.

And I'm sorry, but I truly do not care about state pride right now. I'd say the same about Colorado electors pulling the same bullshit. But if it makes you feel better, I'm sure you, and most of your state, aren't supporting Trump's election or selling out our country to Russia. Because Washington voted for Hillary Clinton. Which makes certain Washington Electors' actions just a bit more shameful, as they are acting against all three main factors the Electors should take into account- the interests of their country, the popular vote, and the will of the voters of their state.

[Soontir C'boath]

I do think its amusing that you say I'm hyperbolic for suggesting that Trump could be the death of democracy, then counter by basically saying "well democracy was already dead".

I am only following your conclusion. Your need to not look at what happened to this country historically to compare what's happening now is the disturbing part.

Um... what the fuck?

You can be disturbed by both the fact that our country had severe flaws historically, and that things are moving in the wrong direction now.

Again, your argument seems to be "Its always been bad, so its doesn't matter if its getting worse now." Or, as I said "We've been driving towards a cliff for a while, so it doesn't matter if someone cut the brake lines."

Or are you actually saying that Trump's election, and other recent events, do not represent a rapid move in the wrong direction?

Your words not mine. You are the one blowing Trump up, but frankly any Republican winner would probably set your balls on fire. You say things are moving in the wrong direction now, but the point is that it has been going in the wrong direction including under Democratic control whether you like it or not. The scope you are focusing on is too narrow.

So America has a Republican President again. The trend seems to suggest we love to do this every eight years lately. What matters now is not what Trump and the Republican party will do, necessarily. It is what the Democratic party will do in the future to come and recent history suggests it does not bode well. Obama was a big win, but they lost sight of everything else since then including why he won.

and the further gutting of any regulation of campaign finance, will probably make it next to impossible for anyone but Trump and the Republicans to win in four years.

Hillary outspent Trump 2:1.

Well, she did win the popular vote.

Which at the end of the day, were in the wrong places. Her ground game turned out to be utter garbage.

[Flagg]

I'm currently residing in Canada. What of it? Does that some how make me less an American citizen, or less entitled to an express an opinion on my country's politics?

No, it just makes your breathless Charleston Heston from 'Planet of the Apes' "IT'S A MADHOUSE! A MAAAADHOOOOUUUUUSE!!!" Style of posting all the more hilarious since you can stay in Canukistan and watch, criticizing from the sidelines while people who actually, you know, live here and suffer under Trump's private security and random pussy-grabbing (you're safe, thankfully) deal with it in everyday life.

Though I truly wish I was in the US right now. It would make it easier to take a more active role in campaigning against the likes of Trump.

That makes one of us.

And I'm sorry, but I truly do not care about state pride right now. I'd say the same about Colorado electors pulling the same bullshit. But if it makes you feel better, I'm sure you, and most of your state, aren't supporting Trump's election or selling out our country to Russia. Because Washington voted for Hillary Clinton. Which makes certain Washington Electors' actions just a bit more shameful, as they are acting against all three main factors the Electors should take into account- the interests of their country, the popular vote, and the will of the voters of their state.

Well yeah, why give a shit how or why people in a state with (currently) protected wilderness and resources may end up looking like fucking Mordor as opposed to the beautiful land, with widely diverse people, and wilderness that will probably get raped? But the Russians!!!

[Flagg]

Hillary outspent Trump 2:1.

Well, she did win the popular vote.

Which at the end of the day, were in the wrong places. Her ground game turned out to be utter garbage.

Hence the " ".