Ukraine War Thread

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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Thanas »

A new low for the separatists: Forcing civilians to do hard labour for them at the front (like digging ditches).

Also, drinking beer is now illegal in public.
(Berlin) – Insurgent forces are detaining civilians on allegations of violating public order and then subjecting them to forced labor. Rebels appear to be using public order infractions as a pretext to obtain unpaid labor.

In some cases, the members of these “punishment brigades” are beaten or subjected to other cruel and degrading treatment. In several cases Human Rights Watch documented, civilians were forced to work at checkpoints near front lines, where they were at risk of attacks by Ukrainian government forces.

“Rebels in eastern Ukraine need to stop forcing people into labor brigades and stop exposing them to dangers of the front lines,” said Hugh Williamson, Europe and Central Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “Both are serious violations of the laws of war.”


In Donetsk in mid-August, Human Rights Watch interviewed several victims of forced labor and relatives of victims, as well as an insurgent fighter. All said that people detained for alleged public drinking, breaking the curfew, unlawful use of drugs, and other minor infractions could be put into “punishment brigades” for up to 30 days. On several occasions, Human Rights Watch also observed men in civilian clothing working in “punishment brigades” at checkpoints near Donetsk.

In two cases, the civilians were subjected to forced labor because they had been drinking beer in public.

“Punishment brigades” carry out numerous manual tasks, such as filling sandbags at checkpoints, clearing brush, digging trenches, and working as kitchen help. The former captives interviewed by Human Rights said they worked close to the front lines and described their work as “dangerous.” The former captives and family members of other captives told Human Rights Watch that “punishment brigades” were widespread in the region and that insurgents threatened to kill those who did not cooperate.

The findings are consistent with an early August New York Times report in which an insurgent commander at a checkpoint acknowledged that all of the people in the brigade under his supervision had been sentenced to 15 days of forced labor as a punishment for causing “some harm to society.”

An insurgent fighter who wished to remain anonymous told Human Rights Watch that the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) typically hands out between one and four weeks of “corrective labor” as punishment for minor infractions that require no military court review. He also said that people suspected of serious crimes are sometimes forced to dig trenches, clean military bases, and carry out manual tasks at checkpoints. Working for the benefit of DPR, he said, is a “way for them to expiate their guilt.” Several pro-Ukrainian activists who were tortured by insurgents in detention also told Human Rights Watch that their captors forced them to work.

“Forced labor is just one of many serious abuses that rebels in eastern Ukraine impose on their captives,” Williamson said.

Alexander (not his real name), told Human Rights Watch that on August 15, 2014, rebel representatives had detained his 25-year-old nephew at a bus stop in central Donetsk for holding an open beer bottle. On August 16, Alexander, who had been looking for his nephew all over the city, showed up at the security service building that rebels are using as a headquarters for the daily reading of the list of detainees the rebels are holding. After hearing his nephew’s name, Alexander learned from a rebel representative that his nephew would be performing corrective labor for the next 10 to 30 days, assigned to a “punishment brigade [and] tasked with digging trenches.”

Mikhail (not his real name) told Human Rights Watch that rebel representatives picked up his son, Dmitry, on August 13 just past midnight, when he was returning from a date. They accused him of breaking the 11 p.m. to 6 a.m. curfew established in Donetsk and eventually took him to the rebel headquarters. A rebel representative told Mikhail on August 16 that his son would work in one of the punishment brigades for the next 15 days.

Twenty-year-old Anton (not his real name), who served in a “punishment brigade” from July 22 to August 1, told Human Rights Watch:

"They [armed insurgents] picked me up drunk, late at night. They beat me up, took me to the [Donetsk region] administration building, beat me up some more. In the end, they put me on this brigade with a dozen others. We were doing different things – filling bags with sand, clearing brush, peeling vegetables, cleaning some premises. Helping at checkpoints was real scary because of the shelling nearby."

In mid-July, armed insurgents caught Yuri (not his real name), a 28-year-old student, in the street with an open can of beer. Yuri told Human Rights Watch he spent the next six days working in a small “punishment brigade” at a checkpoint in the village of Pervomaiskoe, southwest of Donetsk and 10 kilometers from Karlovka, which at the time was on the front line between government and insurgent forces:

"The checkpoint came under shelling twice while I was there. When the shelling started, the fighters told us where to run, where to hide, and how to protect ourselves from the shelling. There was a doctor there as well. I think they just needed the workers. Two other detainees were brought there two days after I arrived [for] drinking beer after curfew. They had several bruises. They told me that they had been beaten [at the rebel headquarters] to confess that they were drug addicts.… I was lucky they did not beat me.… But it is dangerous work. You could get killed if the checkpoint comes under attack.…"

International humanitarian law does permit parties to the conflict, in limited circumstances, to impose some compulsory labor on civilians. However, it cannot be abusive and should be compensated, nor can the work relate directly to the conduct of military operations. This applies whether the civilians are in detention or not.


“If insurgent leadership in eastern Ukraine has any respect for international humanitarian law, they should put an end to these abusive and dangerous forced labor practices,” Williamson said.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

It's illegal to drink beer in public too in the US. So what's your beef?
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Block »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:It's illegal to drink beer in public too in the US. So what's your beef?
No, it's illegal to be publicly intoxicated. People drink in public parks and venues all the time.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:It's illegal to drink beer in public too in the US. So what's your beef?
Maybe it is the idea that you can get hauled off for forced labour in a combat zone for drinking beer?
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Borgholio »

I can just imagine the chaos if someone in Germany passed a law saying you can't drink beer in public...
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Welf »

Borgholio wrote:I can just imagine the chaos if someone in Germany passed a law saying you can't drink beer in public...
I think that would only happen if a foreign power with no respect for local traditions or a nation's right for self-determination invades the country. And that would be bad.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Iroscato »

RT is just a constant stream of propaganda throughout this whole thing. It's to be expected of course as they're funded by the Kremlin, but it's just so disappointing to see it being played out day in, day out. I only really watch it for the late night shows anyway tbh, the news quality is a few bars below BBC.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by ArmorPierce »

Block wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:It's illegal to drink beer in public too in the US. So what's your beef?
No, it's illegal to be publicly intoxicated. People drink in public parks and venues all the time.

WTF i cant believe that there is even a question about it. In the united states its illegal to have an open container period in most jurisdictions. If you see people drinking in the park then yes they are breaking the law.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by K. A. Pital »

Drinking in public is also prohibited in Russia. Not that it helps much, anyway.

Also, all the Russian channels covering the war are propaganda as Russia is obviously a war party by now in all but name. The fact that the Minsk agreements were essentially between Putin and Poroshenko (a fact quickly denied by both, but still obvious) is clearly pointing to that.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Channel72 »

ArmorPierce wrote:WTF i cant believe that there is even a question about it. In the united states its illegal to have an open container period in most jurisdictions. If you see people drinking in the park then yes they are breaking the law.
This law seems incredibly vague and/or totally inconsistently enforced. At train stations, for example, people drink beer all the time while waiting in the terminal or walking around the station (you know this, you're from the NY area) even while police regularly patrol the area.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Channel72 wrote:
ArmorPierce wrote:WTF i cant believe that there is even a question about it. In the united states its illegal to have an open container period in most jurisdictions. If you see people drinking in the park then yes they are breaking the law.
This law seems incredibly vague and/or totally inconsistently enforced. At train stations, for example, people drink beer all the time while waiting in the terminal or walking around the station (you know this, you're from the NY area) even while police regularly patrol the area.
They most certainly enforce it in most college campuses I have been to (for obvious reasons).
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Irbis »

Welf wrote:I think that would only happen if a foreign power with no respect for local traditions or a nation's right for self-determination invades the country.
Don't you already have some beer medieval law forced on all Germans by small part of country 'with no respect for local traditions or right for self-determination' killing any innovation or wrong traditions [1]? :P

The irony being it was Russians who saved these inside East Germany so nyah :>
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Vympel »

So we've got a ceasefire in place and an agreement signed - finally. Hopefully it holds. Kiev should know by now they have no chance of winning. Pretty funny watching Obama pretend the ceasefire was in place because of their irrelevant sanctions and not, you know, the massive military reverse that his boys in Kiev suffered.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29082574

http://rt.com/news/185396-ukraine-cease ... a-militia/

http://rt.com/news/185456-ukraine-peace-plan-talks/

Both sides in the Ukrainian conflict have agreed to “all to all” prisoners of war exchange, hardware withdrawal and humanitarian aid access to the area. Kiev and rebel troops laid down arms as the main agreement – ceasefire- came into force at 15:00 GMT.

The contact group in Minsk agreed on three key issues: ceasefire, exchange of war prisoners and humanitarian aid access, OSCE envoy Tagliavini told reporters.

“We continued consultation and agreed on other issues. Among them are the ceasefire, the withdrawal of troops and the "all to all" exchange of prisoners,” she said.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

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Channel72 wrote:
ArmorPierce wrote:WTF i cant believe that there is even a question about it. In the united states its illegal to have an open container period in most jurisdictions. If you see people drinking in the park then yes they are breaking the law.
This law seems incredibly vague and/or totally inconsistently enforced. At train stations, for example, people drink beer all the time while waiting in the terminal or walking around the station (you know this, you're from the NY area) even while police regularly patrol the area.
I've seen people drinking it from a brown bag or pouring it into like a coke bottle or something. I haven't seen people openly displaying themselves drinking it in public. Cops have a certain level of latitude, if you are doing it quietly, cover it up in a brown bag, and not causing a scene they may leave you alone, but I've seen people walking by themselves and drinking out of a brown bag in times square get stopped by cops too.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

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Vympel wrote:So we've got a ceasefire in place and an agreement signed - finally. Hopefully it holds. Kiev should know by now they have no chance of winning. Pretty funny watching Obama pretend the ceasefire was in place because of their irrelevant sanctions and not, you know, the massive military reverse that his boys in Kiev suffered.
Indeed, the "reverse" that only happened after Russian intervention (just over a month after Girkin complained that "less than a thousand" volunteers had joined the militia). As the ceasefire was violated after 30 hours after the pro-Russian militia shelled the vicinity of Mariupol, I really hope it'll hold together. Judging by the roadmap (that Luhansk and Donetsk will receive a special status within Ukraine) that's all the militia can hope for.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Vympel »

Indeed, the "reverse" that only happened after Russian intervention (just over a month after Girkin complained that "less than a thousand" volunteers had joined the militia).
Less than a thousand had joined which militia? There are multiple rebel groups. Given the forces Kiev had in Lugansk and Donetsk, the notion that the rebels were so numerically weak that only a massive Russian intervention could save them requires us to believe that a truly huge Russian force entered the fight.

The Russian intervention was clearly conducted within the auspices of the existing rebel order of battle - the claims about a large scale, official Russian army invasion are lies. We know they're lies because absolutely no evidence for it has been presented, when it would be trivially easy to do so (i.e. what, no one has a camera available when a Russian armored column rolls in to any given town or village)? All we've seen throughout the conflict in terms of rebel equipment have been eclectic mixes of equipment in small penny packets - absolutely no large formation, and no uniformity. The Russian aid that escalated over the past few weeks (most obviously seen in the appearance of BTR-82As, T-72Bs w/ Kontakts-V ERA and several of the very latest T-72B3 upgraded variant - and again always scattered amongst other, older shit) has taken the form of arms, vehicles, and rotating men in and out - not an official army presence.

As to the ceasefire being breached, predictably both sides are accusing the other of breaking the truce, but the narrative on both sides appears to be that it is "generally" holding. Hopefully that's an indicator that both sides can control themselves despite random shelling. I'm not super optimistic though.

The OSCE has published the 12-point protocol for peace in the East. Power in Ukraine to be decentralized, early local elections, general amnesty.

http://rt.com/news/185700-lugansk-donet ... al-status/

The OSCE has revealed the 12-point roadmap behind the September 5 truce signed in Minsk. It says that Ukraine must adopt a new law, allowing for a special status for Lugansk and Donetsk regions, and hold early elections there.

The document, titled ‘Protocol on the results of consultations of the Trilateral Contact Group’ and signed in Minsk on September 5, outlines what needs to be done for the ceasefire to stay in place.

“To decentralize power, including through the adoption by Ukraine of law 'on provisional procedure for local government in parts of Donetsk and Lugansk regions (law on special status),'” states one of the provisions in the document.

Another point emphasizes that “early local elections” are to be held in light of the special status of both regions. The early elections must be held in accordance with the same proposed law, it says.

Kiev must then continue an “inclusive nationwide dialogue,” the document stresses.

The roadmap also implies an amnesty for anti-government forces in Donbass: “To adopt a law, prohibiting prosecution or punishment of people in relation to the events that took place in individual areas of Donetsk and Lugansk regions of Ukraine.”

At the same time, it notes that all “illegal military formations, military equipment, as well as militants and mercenaries” have to be withdrawn from Ukraine.
Exactly what should've happened months ago, in other words.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

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No months ago Russia would have just tried to chew up an even greater chunk of Ukraine and then held a fake election with people openly stuffing the ballot boxes in front of the media after a week to 'justify' its efforts. While of course also banning any sort of campaigning by anyone. Ukraine let Russia have the Crimea without a fight, and it got them handed another invasion, they would have been insane to simply yield again and allow themselves to be dismembered at will.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

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That's a gigantic load of bullshit - Russia has no apparent intent of "dismembering" Ukraine and Ukraine's ramshackle piece of shit army did nothing to change Russia's calculus. Absorbing Donetsk and Lugansk would merely reduce their influence over the rest of Ukraine, which is why Russia's strategy since the annexure of Crimea was consistent - devolved powers to the east, i.e. preserving their influence.

If Russia wanted to dismember Ukraine, the army would've gone in proper months ago and gone through the Ukrainian army like a wet tissue.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

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Bullshit. Not even Putin is insane and stupid enough to have an invasion and then fight an insurgency for a decade, all the while dealing with the US sponsoring insurgencies in the caucasus.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

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There have been well more than 1000 Russian soldiers fighting among the Donetsk separatists' ranks and as cohesive units at that. Almost an entire company from the Pihkova region that was sent by Russia has been killed (70 out of 80 men in the company died). In mid-August a 1200 strong Russian troop was sent to Ukraine, "in the role of rebels", as quoted by one of the members to his mother just prior to the deployment. He died since (Anton Tumanov was his name).

Pretending that Russia is not operating armed forces in the rebel regions of Ukraine as a direct participant in the hostilities is nothing but dishonesty of the worst sort.

As far as how this conflict is ultimately resolved, if it comes down to either a Russian puppet state or an American one, I'll back the American one every time. ANYTHING that hurts and lessens Russian influence west of the Urals is an unalloyed, unambiguously good thing.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Purple »

Edi wrote:ANYTHING that hurts and lessens Russian influence west of the Urals is an unalloyed, unambiguously good thing.
And why is this? What makes the Russians any worse than America or any other nation? You say that as if it was ISIL or something.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

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check his location purple.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Purple wrote:
Edi wrote:ANYTHING that hurts and lessens Russian influence west of the Urals is an unalloyed, unambiguously good thing.
And why is this? What makes the Russians any worse than America or any other nation? You say that as if it was ISIL or something.
I suppose, when given a choice between American or Russian Imperialism, some prefer the former.

Of course in some parts of the world, the latter is more tolerated than the former. So go figure.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Edi »

Purple wrote:
Edi wrote:ANYTHING that hurts and lessens Russian influence west of the Urals is an unalloyed, unambiguously good thing.
And why is this? What makes the Russians any worse than America or any other nation? You say that as if it was ISIL or something.
Take a good look at the history between my country and Russia. That should explain quite a bit. Anything that lessens Russian power and especially anything that lessens its ability to flex its military muscles in its neighbors' territory means an automatic gain for Finland.

The Baltic countries joined NATO as soon as they could for a very good reason. We should have joined at the same time as well. Too bad most of my countrymen are, with respect to security policy, fuckwits who still regard joining NATO as more dangerous than Russia.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by cosmicalstorm »

Word is out that other NATO countries might be sending both military aid and advisers, if that is true it would be a scary escalation! That is real war waiting to happen. Well everyone still has nukes but I don't like it. Cut Ukraine up, defend the remaining areas but cut it.
Purple wrote:
Edi wrote:ANYTHING that hurts and lessens Russian influence west of the Urals is an unalloyed, unambiguously good thing.
And why is this? What makes the Russians any worse than America or any other nation? You say that as if it was ISIL or something.
Even when America acted it's worst it "only" killed a few million people drawn out over many years and for a reasonably good cause, in Vietnam.
The recent century of Russian national psychosis on the other hand is so extremely bloody that it dwarfs almost everything else save China.
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