Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by J »

Well, at least the rioters are getting the right targets now...

http://imarketnews.com/node/12929
A Branch Of Greece Finance Ministry Set On Fire By Rioters

ATHENS (MNI) - A building belonging to Greece's Finance Ministry was set afire Wednesday by rioters protesting the stringent four-year austerity plan the Greek government has agreed to accept in exchange for up to E110 billion in aid from fellow Eurozone countries and the International Monetary Fund.

The Finance Ministry issued a statement Wednesday night saying that no crucial documents had been lost, though the damage to the building was extensive.


The fire came on a day when a general strike against the government's new fiscal plan erupted into violence, leaving three dead and tens of others wounded. In Athens, protesters gathered around the Parliament while some groups threw fire bombs at buildings, cars and banks. The police answered with tear gas and arrests.

A fire bomb thrown into a branch of the Marfin Bank in Athens, which was open despite the strike, killed three employees while five others were rescued from the balcony of the burning building, the Athens fire department said.

"The country is at the edge of the abyss," said Greek President Karolos Papoulias.

The 48-hour strike in Greece's public sector started Tuesday, and private sector workers joined in on Wednesday. All government offices, services, ports, airports, schools and hospitals were shut down as tens of thousands of people took to the streets.

Even Greek journalists were on strike, but they later went back to work in order to cover the riots.

The protesters are focusing their fury on the government's proposed E30 billion savings plan, which includes significant cuts in public sector salaries and pensions, the abolition of most benefits and bonuses, and increases in consumer taxes.

"The people are losing their rights and their future. The country cannot surrender without a fight," said Yiannis Panagopoulos, president of the GSEE -- one of Greece's two largest union organizations, which was instrumental in orchestrating the strike.

The Socialist Party government announced that it will table the austerity plan in Parliament Thursday under an emergency procedure which stipulates that there will be no debate and that the bill can be passed with a simple majority of 151 out of the 300 seats in Parliament. The Socialists hold 160 of those seats, so passage should be assured.

Greece's Prime Minister George Papandreou said he will call an emergency council of all political leaders under the president of the republic to discuss the strikes and riots.

He called on all political parties to denounce the violence and urged them to "undertake their responsibilities and not hide behind the decisions the government was forced to take to avoid bankruptcy."

He added: "The country is facing tough times and we must all be clear."

The country's Finance Minister George Papaconstantinou told the Financial Times in an interview Tuesday that, "we have made mistakes" but the new austerity plan will "prove our complete determination to face the problems and exit recession soon."

The package of spending cuts and tax hikes is intended to reduce the public budget deficit by 5.5 percentage points of GDP this year alone, from 13.6% to 8.1%. It is envisioned that by 2014, the deficit will be brought under the EU's limit of 3%. But in that same year, outstanding public debt is projected to be an astronomical 144% of GDP, up from 113% in 2009 -- leading many to predict that a Greek bond default is inevitable.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

You know, it's just hit me...

The EU is entering it's first serious crisis. The greeks are, frankly, behaving like petulant children - at least, some of them are. The public sector workers who defraud the government, everyone who refuses to pay taxes and tries to shield their taxes - and especially the motherfuckers trying desperately to camoflauge their swimming pools - well...

Frankly, they should stand those motherhumpers up against the wall.


At the same time, you can't blame the Average <Insert Stereotypically Common Greek Equavilent of Joe Here> for being pissed at the rest of the EU taking a collective shit upon them for massive, overarching complexities that are functionally beyond their capacity to influence.

It would be like if you paid your taxes on time, paid your dues, lived comfortably - and I'm not saying you're not out to take what you can, but you're not a shit-head who steals blatently, either - and the township you're living within is so functionally insolvant that the State steps in and starts demanding measures that are going to make your life shit.


And yet, at the same time, the Greek government very clearly did lay a hell of a lot of rotten eggs that have hatched into shitbirds and they've come home to roost.


Perhaps - and I'm aware of the chaos it would cause, but there's going to be chaos regardless - the answer which was farcically suggested is the correct one.

Maybe the Greek government needs to be forcibly - violently, if nessessary - dissolved by the rest of the EU, order established at the point of the primary assault rifles of the other EU states' militaries? Wipe clean the debts owed by the Greek government by the demolition of the governmental institution which incurred the debt; basically, put the entire nation of Greece into recievership, foreclose on it, and restore everything to functionality with heavy-handed, draconian from-on-high meausres, and only once things are working again then give Greece back to the Greeks?


It would be effectively equavilent to the EU declaring itself to have the authority to collectively override and overrule the sovreignity of it's member states. Maybe it needs that power.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Teebs »

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:Maybe the Greek government needs to be forcibly - violently, if nessessary - dissolved by the rest of the EU, order established at the point of the primary assault rifles of the other EU states' militaries? Wipe clean the debts owed by the Greek government by the demolition of the governmental institution which incurred the debt; basically, put the entire nation of Greece into recievership, foreclose on it, and restore everything to functionality with heavy-handed, draconian from-on-high meausres, and only once things are working again then give Greece back to the Greeks?


It would be effectively equavilent to the EU declaring itself to have the authority to collectively override and overrule the sovreignity of it's member states. Maybe it needs that power.
Not a very good idea. The EU couldn't declare itself to have that power under its own rules. Almost every member state would have a fit if it did and remember that the power in the EU lies mostly with the governments of the member states acting through the Council of Ministers. Horrible international consequences too.

Also, I assume most Greek debt is owed to other European banks since its main trading partners are European, going in and wiping out its debt just means you then have to bail out your own banks which I can't imagine would be any better.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Broomstick »

The US Articles of Confederation (not to be confused with the Confederate States of America, which came much later) were in some ways like the current EU, with members states retaining most of their sovereignty, if not all of it. It didn't work out for us, which is why the US adopted its present constitution where the member states ceased to be sovereign entities in their own right.

It was tried again with the Confederate States of America some time later. Didn't work out then, either, though admittedly there were many distractions, like bullets and cannon balls being fired at them from the north.

Of course, Europe is a different place and it's nations have a much longer history of being sovereign. That's an important difference.

Anyhow - I'd like to see Europe resolve this without bloodshed. Er.... further bloodshed.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by D.Turtle »

According to Tagesschau.de (German news site, usually quite good) several polls show a majority of Greeks supporting those measures, however they don't mention what polls say so.

Looking in Google, I can't find any that say so. In fact, I can only find polls (including quite new ones) that show the opposite.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by J »

Teebs wrote:Also, I assume most Greek debt is owed to other European banks since its main trading partners are European, going in and wiping out its debt just means you then have to bail out your own banks which I can't imagine would be any better.
As far as I can tell Greece is a bit of a blackhole for money much like AIG, the country's finances are fundamentally FUBAR and show no real signs of changing anytime soon, in fact it's spent around half of the last 500 years in default according to a recent Bloomberg article. Any bailout money that's given to Greece now is almost guaranteed to be gone and pretty soon they'll be doing bailouts all over again, and again, and again just like AIG.

It's quite likely to be more cost effective if Greece is allowed to default on its debts and the EU's banks are bailed out once and only once by their host nations. It sucks a lot more in the short term but they don't end up throwing billions into a hungry moneypit every year for an indefinite period of time. The one time hit is worse but they'll come out ahead over the medium to long term.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by mr friendly guy »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8657989.stm

The above link gives some of the views of Greeks, sort of like what Crown mentioned. There was another link, but I can't seem to find it again which says similar things. That is the protests are targeted at the corrupt government more so than the austerity measures themselves, although every other news report they say the protesters are against the latter.

Now I can imagine everday Greeks pissed off with the politicians, however the fact that they are heavy into tax evasion would suggest that they themselves contributed to the problem.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Thanas »

Crown wrote:
Tiriol wrote:And how does that change anything?
It doesn't change anything, and I never even suggest it did.

My only response in that tangent was to ask someone who's family nearly-almost-but-not-quite died due to the Nazis if she felt she could really play the moral card on an entire nation that endured an occupation without coming off like a complete dick *scrolls up to read Broomstick's reply* huh, guess not, she couldn't.
Oh, quit it. Greeks have no right to bitch about something that happened almost 70 years ago except if they were personally effected by it.

Why not all? Haven't they been defrauded the most from this whole mess?
They also seem to have taken part in it and enabled this behaviour for several decades. It is not as if the government took great measures to hide the truth from the citizens, when these very same citizens were more than happy to take advantage of it. Or are you suggesting that this was all just a nefarious plot perpetrated by a few man at the top? What, nobody of the guys retiring at 48 thought that this might be a bit unustainable when looking at other countries?
People are so seriously missing my post that it is alarming; Greek's have always known that their government was more crooked than a than a lawyer's moral compass, but as long as the EU was signing off on it it could never be imagined that they were ripping of future Greeks as well as the current ones!
What, they thought the EU was handing them blank cheques....why again? What makes them so special? This is pure idiocy and stupidity on such a level they make creationists look smart by comparison.
They've been duped more than most, and now they have to pay for their Government's 'indiscretions' when they'd rather see the people responsible held accountable (ha! fat chance).
In other words, they liked the system just fine and took advantage of it and now they blame those guys who got more out of it than they did.
No that doesn't mean that demanding Germany pay for it is justified (again I point out that I have never suggested it did), and no it doesn't mean that rioting is the way to go (again I point out that I have never suggested it did), but for people to actually insist that a mob of angry people should 'just get over it' are living in some kind of egalitarian utopia which simply exists only in the figment of their imagination. And it does underline one thing for sure; these people sure as shit don't know the first fucking thing about Greeks and their daily lives.
Germany shouldered the costs of rebuilding an entire country and the financial burden of 1.200.000.000.000 over the past 15 years. We got over it. Why can't the greeks?
But hey, like I said; lets ignore all that and react to some off the cuff statement from a mob on the street and some sensationalistic journalism and continue with the tut tutting ....

My one question to you all is; what did you expect? Seriously, answering that question will provide a greater insight into what understanding (if any) you (or anyone else) have/had of the Greek psyche. No joke, and no trick, you can ignore my ENTIRE post and I will happily continue a reasonable discussion if you answer this one question.
I expected fingerpointing and acting like little children whose toys get taken away. What I did not expect was people firebombing offices and police officers.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Crown »

Thanas wrote:
Crown wrote:
It doesn't change anything, and I never even suggest it did.

My only response in that tangent was to ask someone who's family nearly-almost-but-not-quite died due to the Nazis if she felt she could really play the moral card on an entire nation that endured an occupation without coming off like a complete dick *scrolls up to read Broomstick's reply* huh, guess not, she couldn't.

Oh, quit it. Greeks have no right to bitch about something that happened almost 70 years ago except if they were personally effected by it.
You would have to be brain dead if you honestly believe that the forceful occupation of an entire nation hasn't left some long lasting affect on a nation, only 60 years after the event. And AGAIN I re-iterate that my response was nothing to do about whether or not blaming 'ze Germans' was the justified or not.

Thanas wrote:They also seem to have taken part in it and enabled this behaviour for several decades. It is not as if the government took great measures to hide the truth from the citizens, when these very same citizens were more than happy to take advantage of it. Or are you suggesting that this was all just a nefarious plot perpetrated by a few man at the top? What, nobody of the guys retiring at 48 thought that this might be a bit unsustainable when looking at other countries?
So your claim is that the Greek citizenship was fully and wholly aware in a massive defrauding scheme in which a single (even possibly successive) Greek Government used creative accounting for a period of greater than a decade fooling Brussels and all of its oversights and checks? And your evidence for this is....
Thanas wrote:What, they thought the EU was handing them blank cheques....why again? What makes them so special? This is pure idiocy and stupidity on such a level they make creationists look smart by comparison.
No, they thought that Brussels could act as some measure of control and safeguard on Athens. That was pretty clearly spelt out the first time, you seem to have gone to great and extraordinary lengths to misinterpret it, one might in fact suggest that someone would have to be brain dead to have missed such a simple point.

Thanas wrote:In other words, they liked the system just fine and took advantage of it and now they blame those guys who got more out of it than they did.
Given the long record of civil disobedience and protest at perceived government corruption one would have to brain dead to assume that the Greek citizens 'liked the system just fine'.

Thanas wrote:Germany shouldered the costs of rebuilding an entire country and the financial burden of 1.200.000.000.000 over the past 15 years. We got over it. Why can't the greeks?
Germany at point of unification =! Greece now. Germany had the considerable advantage post war (talking about the west side here) of foreign investment and aid and a well founded political institutions. Greek citizenry has lost all faith in whatever authority is around it. Again, you would have to be brain dead not to recognise this.

If you prefer a family analogy, you are essentially comparing the response of a family re-absorbing long lost relatives, to children being asked to trust abusive parents. The austerity measures are treating the symptoms but the actual cause (rampant corruption) is gonna still be there in the end.

Thanas wrote:I expected fingerpointing and acting like little children whose toys get taken away. What I did not expect was people firebombing offices and police officers.
Yes, because Greece doesn't have a well established history of civil --- oh you know what? Fuck it, you clearly have no fucking idea about modern Greece, it's recent history, that is evident. You base your entire arguments/judgements from a reality which simply does not exist for the people affected in Greece. I'm not expecting you to AGREE or condone their behaviour, but as someone who clearly IS NOT brain dead you seem entirely incapable of engaging your brain and place yourself in someone else’s shoes, under their own frames of reference and realise that their reaction isn't exactly as shocking and amazing as you first believe.

Since I have no doubt you'll ignore everything and bluster some more bullshit that I will probably have to respond to for its sheer incredulous moronic dishonesty, I'll break it down for you all easy like;

Demanding Germany should foot the bill because of a war 60 years ago = wrong.
Rioting and civil disobedience that results in lives = wrong.
Demanding all your entitlements while doing fuck all to help your own situation = self harming and wrong.

Reacting they way they have, given their own history and outraged over being fucked over due to a corrupt government = not at all surprised & empathise.

Got it?
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Greece needs a bailout

Post by Stravo »

News

Wow. I have been casually watching this unfold over the last few months and now it seems it's gotten to the point that Greece needs a bailout and in order to receive that money they must undertake an austerity plan that means cutting pensions and salaries. The protests seem to be pretty bad - they burned a bank with people still inside killing a pregnant woman - and all I can think about is why? Why are you protesting like this? If the govenment doesn't do this the country will go bankrupt and there will be NO salaries or pensions. Is that what these 'tards want?

I get that you're angry about the whole situation but to angrily and violenty protest what needs to be done seems like a futile waste. Suck it up and survive.

On a sidenote we never seemed to have asked companies accepting TARP money to undertake any austerity plans. America is all about string free bailouts. For companies though not for hard working people. No. That would be communist.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

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Crown wrote:You would have to be brain dead if you honestly believe that the forceful occupation of an entire nation hasn't left some long lasting affect on a nation, only 60 years after the event.
It is not only 60 years after the event. And even then, I wonder why the Greeks did not manage to quit whining about it....everybody else in the western world did. But I guess the Greeks are somewhat special in that. FFS, these guys are worse than the Russians, who, unlike the Greeks, have far more reason to be frothing at the mouth.

So your claim is that the Greek citizenship was fully and wholly aware in a massive defrauding scheme in which a single (even possibly successive) Greek Government used creative accounting for a period of greater than a decade fooling Brussels and all of its oversights and checks? And your evidence for this is....
Oh, quit it. One does not need to be braindead to recognize that this behaviour would not be sustainable in the long run. Again, retiring at 48. 48. You really believe everyone thought this could well go on? Again, stupidity at its height. Or the widespread tax evasion. I notice you seem to gloss over the fact that Greeks profited in this and were pretty much taking every chance at further defrauding the system.
No, they thought that Brussels could act as some measure of control and safeguard on Athens. That was pretty clearly spelt out the first time, you seem to have gone to great and extraordinary lengths to misinterpret it, one might in fact suggest that someone would have to be brain dead to have missed such a simple point.
Ah, so the same people who continiously scammed the system thought Brussels will fix it. Seems pretty stupid to me, going to great lenghts to make sure the system remains broken and then think outsiders will fix it.

Given the long record of civil disobedience and protest at perceived government corruption one would have to brain dead to assume that the Greek citizens 'liked the system just fine'.
Ah, yes. Those protesters surely were in the majority, weren't they? I mean, these couldn't be the same people who retired at 48, used the unions to gain more and more ridiculous boni etc... Nope, clearly not the same.

If you prefer a family analogy, you are essentially comparing the response of a family re-absorbing long lost relatives, to children being asked to trust abusive parents. The austerity measures are treating the symptoms but the actual cause (rampant corruption) is gonna still be there in the end.
Because the people are sure right now complaining about corruption instead of the austerity measures themselves... Heck, I'd wager good money that if the EU were to take over Greece and run it like the corrupt shithole it is, the Greeks would complain about that too.
Yes, because Greece doesn't have a well established history of civil --- oh you know what? Fuck it, you clearly have no fucking idea about modern Greece, it's recent history, that is evident. You base your entire arguments/judgements from a reality which simply does not exist for the people affected in Greece. I'm not expecting you to AGREE or condone their behaviour, but as someone who clearly IS NOT brain dead you seem entirely incapable of engaging your brain and place yourself in someone else’s shoes, under their own frames of reference and realise that their reaction isn't exactly as shocking and amazing as you first believe.
Let me get one thing straight here - I can see how they might riot at this. But the truth is they have no right to complain about anything. They should be grateful they are being helped out by their more affluent partners, the same partners they systematically lied to over decades.

If this were a normal business situation, Greece would be left to go bankrupt. After all, if you lie to a business partner, you do not exactly see him forking over money when you go bankrupt, no?
Reacting they way they have, given their own history and outraged over being fucked over due to a corrupt government = not at all surprised & empathise.
Why should we empathise at all with those arrogant jackasses? Oh no, they might actually be forced to pay for their toys.

Let me pull you another question: What level of support do you think Greece deserves?
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Re: Greece needs a bailout

Post by Crown »

It's a case of sensationalist reporting and the grand tradition of the anarchist left wing in Greece using any excuse to try and cause disruption for the government.

Sure there are people that are that self absorbed at those protests, but there are others who are protesting the fact that even if the austerity measures are observed the same corrupt bastards that got them in this mess will still be there.

Posted from the other thread, have a read;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8657989.stm
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by J »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 64488.html
Germany's MPs rage at Merkel over bailout plan

By Tony Paterson in Berlin


Thursday, 6 May 2010

Chancellor Angela Merkel was heckled in the German parliament yesterday as she urged MPs to back the country's €22.4bn bailout for Greece, insisting that the "future of Europe" rested on the success of the rescue package.

Ms Merkel's cabinet gave the go-ahead for a German contribution to the €110bn joint European Union and International Monetary Fund bailout on Monday, but parliament still has to vote on the package tomorrow before the measure goes before an EU summit in Brussels.

In an impassioned speech that was frequently drowned out by shouts and protests from angry MPs, Ms Merkel did her utmost to defend the bailout: "It is about no more and no less than the future of Europe and Germany's future within Europe," she insisted. "Europe is looking to Germany today, without us there will be no decision."

While opinion polls have shown that a majority of Germans strongly disapprove of the rescue package for Greece, Ms Merkel herself had been criticised at home and in Europe for responding too late to the country's mounting debt crisis. Some had argued that her delaying tactics had helped to exacerbate the problem.

But the Chancellor defended her decision to delay, saying she had to make German aid for Greece conditional on a tough savings programme. "A good European is not always somebody who helps quickly, but rather somebody who helps ensure that the eurozone is not damaged," she told parliament.

Germany's opposition Social Democrats refused to guarantee their support for the rescue package yesterday and left the issue open. "The costs of this crisis cannot again be one-sidedly dumped on the German taxpayer," insisted Frank Walter Steinmeier, the Social Democrat parliamentary leader. Addressing Ms Merkel directly, he added: "You let things drift and only now are you calling the fire brigade when everything is ablaze."

MPs in Germany's liberal Free Democrat party, which is in coalition government with Ms Merkel's conservatives, also said they had reservations about the package. German opponents of the euro have said they plan to take the issue to the country's constitutional court.

The German government has been making strenuous efforts to sell the rescue package to a disillusioned public. Ms Merkel has enlisted the support of German banks to offset the costs to taxpayers and called for an overhaul of the EU's Growth and Stability Pact to ensure there is no repeat of the Greek crisis.

Ms Merkel faces a key election in North Rhine Westphalia, Germany's most populous state, this Sunday. If her party loses control of the state, her coalition will forfeit its majority in Germany's upper house of parliament and find it difficult to govern.
Hopefully the Germans do the right thing and reject the bailout proposal. However, I'm worried it may end up like the TARP bailout in the US where the proposal was initially rejected only to get pushed through via other means. I'm not sure if this is possible with Germany's government system.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Thanas »

It is not.

That said, I think we should bailout Greece, even if they do not deserve it, because otherwise the EU might just have failed a crucial test for European unity. One generally does not abandon people in need when they are that closely aligned with you.
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Re: Greece needs a bailout

Post by Stravo »

Crown, is there potentially any political fallout for the clowns in charge that got them here or is it one of those European parliamentary things like in Italy where there is one dominant party that has even run donkeys in elections and won so there's very little chance for change?

As much as I think these violent protests are useless and dangeorus I really wish Americans could get this fired up about ANYTHING. We never seem to take to the streets anymore even when corporate America gets caught with its hand in the till taking $800 billion dollars while Middle class folks are being kicked out of their homes. No one seems to be moved to do a fucking thing here.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by J »

On a lighter note, bailing out Greece means you're actually giving free money to French banks!
You Germans won't stand for that, will you? :P
Thanas wrote:That said, I think we should bailout Greece, even if they do not deserve it, because otherwise the EU might just have failed a crucial test for European unity. One generally does not abandon people in need when they are that closely aligned with you.
From a political and I guess moral standpoint you'd be right, there's an obligation to help out weaker members in the union during their time of need. The EU is still young and a bailout rejection at this point in time would be rather disatrous for European unity.

But from an economic standpoint, ugh, it opens up a huge can of worms and I can't find any reason to favour the bailout unless you're Greece or one of the other soon to be bailed out countries.
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Re: Greece needs a bailout

Post by Crown »

Stravo wrote:Crown, is there potentially any political fallout for the clowns in charge that got them here or is it one of those European parliamentary things like in Italy where there is one dominant party that has even run donkeys in elections and won so there's very little chance for change?
The sad part of this affair is the PASOK Government are the ones who actually didn't defraud the EU, but came clean about the previous Governments shinanigans (whether because they're more honest, or they got cold feet in continuing the farse, I'll let you all decide for yourselves).
Stravo wrote:As much as I think these violent protests are useless and dangeorus I really wish Americans could get this fired up about ANYTHING. We never seem to take to the streets anymore even when corporate America gets caught with its hand in the till taking $800 billion dollars while Middle class folks are being kicked out of their homes. No one seems to be moved to do a fucking thing here.
There are many facets to these protests; there are the 'oh my god, you're taking my shit away from me crowd' and then there are the Anarchists who are stiring shit up. At the end, as you saw from the link, most Greeks recognise that the austerity measures are a necessary measure, they're just dejected because they have no faith that the corruption will be dealt with at all.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Crown »

Thanas wrote:It is not only 60 years after the event. And even then, I wonder why the Greeks did not manage to quit whining about it....everybody else in the western world did. But I guess the Greeks are somewhat special in that. FFS, these guys are worse than the Russians, who, unlike the Greeks, have far more reason to be frothing at the mouth.
The claim that there has been any continuous 'whining' about it will now be supported with some evidence. I will accept quotes from various dates for the past deacade or so from various Greeks, blaming it all on 'ze Germans' to establish a patern of 'frothing at the mouth' behaviour.

Thanas wrote:Oh, quit it. One does not need to be braindead to recognize that this behaviour would not be sustainable in the long run. Again, retiring at 48. 48. You really believe everyone thought this could well go on? Again, stupidity at its height. Or the widespread tax evasion. I notice you seem to gloss over the fact that Greeks profited in this and were pretty much taking every chance at further defrauding the system.
This is immeterial to my discussion. I'm not suggesting that they didn't have unrealistic expectations. You're implying they were culpible in the fraud. You have yet to supply any evidence for this.
Thanas wrote:Ah, so the same people who continiously scammed the system thought Brussels will fix it. Seems pretty stupid to me, going to great lenghts to make sure the system remains broken and then think outsiders will fix it.
Again it was explained to you, and again you ignore it; Greeks always assumed that their corrupt Government was stealing from them, they just couldn't imagine it was lying and defrauding the entire of Europe too.

Thanas wrote:Ah, yes. Those protesters surely were in the majority, weren't they? I mean, these couldn't be the same people who retired at 48, used the unions to gain more and more ridiculous boni etc... Nope, clearly not the same.


If you think there isn't a strong Anarchist (a well established political reality in Greece stretching back 4 decades) present in the riots today that are targeting banks and police and are stiring up violence (like they do at every occasion they can), then you are a complete and utter loon.
Thanas wrote:Because the people are sure right now complaining about corruption instead of the austerity measures themselves... Heck, I'd wager good money that if the EU were to take over Greece and run it like the corrupt shithole it is, the Greeks would complain about that too.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8657989.stm

Opinions from ordinary Greeks.
Thanas wrote:Let me get one thing straight here - I can see how they might riot at this.
Good.
Thanas wrote:But the truth is they have no right to complain about anything.
Disagree. They should be complaining about the inherent corruption that will simply not be fixed or addressed.
Thanas wrote:They should be grateful they are being helped out by their more affluent partners,
I agree.
Thanas wrote:the same partners they systematically lied to over decades.
This is the rub. 'They' did not. Their Government did. For the love of all that is good it BOGGLES THE MIND that in this very thread we have people decrying that some moron said 'ze Germans' should pay for it (for a variety of reasons but lets go with the following) because the Germans of today really don't have anything to do with Nazis.

WHY isn't the same level of reason applied to here? WHY aren't the ordinary Greek citizens afforeded the same courtesy? WHY do I read 'the Greeks' and not 'the Greek public sector workers' are acting like spoilt children (because it is they who are, not the millions of Greeks in the private sector)? WHY am I reading 'the Greeks' lied to Europe rather than the previous Greek Government?
Thanas wrote:If this were a normal business situation, Greece would be left to go bankrupt. After all, if you lie to a business partner, you do not exactly see him forking over money when you go bankrupt, no?
By that rational post war Germany should have been made to pay again, right, because it worked so well the first time! Maybe nations aren't coorperations, no?
Thanas wrote:Why should we empathise at all with those arrogant jackasses? Oh no, they might actually be forced to pay for their toys.
Empathise =! feel sorry and agree with them, empathise = yeah, I can see why they're pissed off.
Thanas wrote:Let me pull you another question: What level of support do you think Greece deserves?
Deserves? A swift and hard kick up the ass, but that will never happen and if it ever did, it will usually be directed to the people who deserve it least.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by K. A. Pital »

Bailout threads merged.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by D.Turtle »

Bah, you just killed my post ;)

Crown, the BBC article mentions the opinions of 4 people - hardly a basis from which anything can be said about the opinions of significant numbers of Greeks.

This article mentions two polls: One showing a majority supporting the request for help from the EU and the IMF, the other showing a majority ready to protest against the austerity measures. However, the current prime minister is apparently still the most popular for tat job.

The situation is quite tenuous and fluid. Nobody really knows what exactly will happen.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Crown »

D.Turtle wrote:The situation is quite tenuous and fluid. Nobody really knows what exactly will happen.
I quite agree, but apparently if some random loon is shown in German media (who of course have no vested interest in sensationalising the story or anything) as saying 'ze Germans should pay for it because of WWII' we (Greeks) all of a sudden have a systemic hatred for Germans, can't let shit go from 60 years ago and are 'frothing at the mouth'.

Anyone who doesn't believe that opinions can't be quite so accurately gauged at this point in time is a simpleton.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

WOOAAAAAHHHHH!

I'm not sure exactly what happened, but the DOW just dropped 500 points while I was having lunch. What the hell was that?
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by D.Turtle »

Apparently the DOW dropped 1000 points, only to rebound 500 points within a few minutes because of fears of further unrest in Greece.

Automated computer-based trading for the win!

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Oh, and Crown: It was more than just a few people. Several parties (communists and ultra-conservatives - no idea how big they are, or how significant) in the parliament demanded in February that the government should call in reparations from Germany. In addition, at that time some other organizations called for a boycott of German goods.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by aerius »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I'm not sure exactly what happened, but the DOW just dropped 500 points while I was having lunch. What the hell was that?
Skynet went online and learned how to trade the market.

According to rumours, some hedgefunds got blown up and took Citibank's trading desk with them. My best guess is the fucked up currency trading action that's been going on all week resulted in a bunch of margin calls today which forced a bunch of financials to liquidate their stocks.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Big Phil »

1000 or even 500 points in a single day isn't the end of the world... but several weeks of declines and the bottom WILL fall out. And then we're all fucked, and it's time to stock up on guns and ammo
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