Ukraine War Thread

[IronStar]

I have missed this- the flag of "right sector" was installed at the entry to the Parliament of Ukraine (which is actually the flag of "UPA"- "The rebel army of Ukraine" which was one of the major military forces fighting alongside nazi in Ukraine during WW2) Spoiler

Fascist installing the flag near the entry to the parliament http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAkKbBLBvZ0
And everybody OK with this.

More- leader of fascist UNA-UNSO Alexander Muzichko at the session of Rovno city(which city administration was actually captured by him and his fighters) regional committee boasting his weapons and saying, than his fighters and "right sector" wont allow to disarm themselves and will continue their fight - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtxbGjkpkF8 I ll repeat info about him- he is a criminal and he with his fighters from UNA UNSO were fighting alongside separatists as a mercenary in Chechnya. The very fact that they just allow this scum to be there is a verdict to all this movement.

Well, that was quick. Euromaidanites dispersing crowds with Kalashnikovs

Holy. Shit. Lugans is one of the cities where anti-fascist are active. Didn t expect them to begin sending their fuckin nazi scum to protesting cities so fast.
And it is HIGHTLY unlikely that this scum is from UDAR as written there- it is obviously right sector.

[K. A. Pital]

Isn't UDAR the party Thanas wants in power? I think that UDAR people are transporting the "Right Sector" to wherever they're needed to quell possible separatist movements. Well, like I said - typical Yugoslavia, 10 years later.

Fingers crossed for all the guys in Crimea.

[IronStar]

I think that UDAR people are transporting the "Right Sector" to wherever they're needed

Well, maybe- avtomaidan widely supports fascists, but i don t think that actual uddar supporters are going to fight- right sector war pigs better suited for this.

Fingers crossed for all the guys in Crimea.

Indeed. But the main problem is that despite there are a lot of protesters, there could be more- all exept ones from Sevastopol severely lack organization. What is more important- protesters must force officials to resign- otherwise there is hight possibility that idiots like Kernes and Dobkin will dump the protest. Only protesters in Sevastopol have done this so far- it is right and wonderful that they hate party of regions and Yanukovich as much as fascists.

And despite the fact that i fully support current Crimea anti-maidan movement it bothers me that it attracts russian nationalists- i ve seen some Russian empire flags on their demonstrations(you know what it means) and "Russian unity" actively participated in today protests and clashes in Simferopol.

[K. A. Pital]

I'm worried about the guys there, if Kiev crushes them, there'll be trials and prisons. Not so much about nationalists, they try to capitalize on every such protest (this is perhaps their best chance so far).

[Thanas]

Turns out fascism may actually not be on the rise in the police and other forces as others claim.
http://www.interpretermag.com/all-ukrai ... -the-rise/

The Russian media and some foreign media outlets have expressed concerns about rising antisemitism, neo-Nazism, and ultra-radical nationalism in the wake of the Ukrainian revolution. To be sure, the right wing organization Pravyi Sektor, or “Right Sector,” and the Svoboda party are nationalist organizations linked with some radical ideologies. A very prominent Jewish Ukrainian, Vadim Rabinovich, writes that on the whole, these ideologies don’t play a key role in the majority of what has transpired in Ukraine, and antisemitism is not on the rise. — Ed.
____________________________________________________
Today, Vadim Rabinovich, president of the All-Ukrainian Jewish Congress (VEK), co-founder of the European Jewish Parliament (EJP) has published a statement in the media regarding the latest events and the situation in Ukraine.

We cite the complete text of the statement:

STATEMENT from Vadim RABINOVICH

President of the All-Ukrainian Jewish Congress (VEK)

Chairman of the European Jewish Congress (EJP)

Throughout the entire period of the events in Ukraine, I have been directly located in Kiev and with my own eyes – not from the TV and from the media – have observed the situation. The Joint Jewish Community in Ukraine and the All-Ukrainian Jewish Congress all this time have been in constant contact with Jewish communities throughout Ukraine and with law-enforcement agencies, monitoring and studying the situation.

The general situation regarding the Jewish community of Ukraine is tolerant and quiet, there are no massive outbursts or worsening of antisemitism in Ukraine.

Several weeks ago, incidents were recorded of attacks on members of the community at a synagogue in the Podol district in Kiev. The situation is being investigated, a criminal case has been opened by law-enforcers, and the investigation has video recordings. There is confidence that the investigation will be conducted to the end.

On the night of 24 February, Molotov cocktails were thrown by unknown persons at the wall of the synagogue in Zaporozhe. I talked directly with the Zaporozhe rabbi and the head of the local community; fortunately, there were no serious consequences or damages as a result, and everything will be restored.

Law-enforcement agencies are treating the situation seriously, a criminal case has been open, and there are video surveillance recordings.

I personally have communicated with the heads of a whole number of groups that consider themselves radical, who have assured me that no manifestations of anti-Semitism have been or will be planned. Moreover, they emphasized in particular that they will ruthlessly combat such manifestations in their own midst. I want to reiterate: even in this difficult period of civic resistance, there have been no grounds to claim any serious incidents of anti-Semitism in Ukraine!

Thus, I categorically refute the statements appearing in a number of foreign media outlets of facts of massive anti-Semitism and xenophobia in Ukraine that do not correspond to reality!

The whipping up of the situation around this issue is of a provocative nature and does not contribute to a calm life for the Jewish community of Ukraine.

Together with the entire people of Ukraine, the Jewish community will actively participate in the building of a democratic state and promote the renewal and prosperity of the country.

For those who do not know who that is, he is the guy who apparently was attacked with the bomb attack others have posted in this thread.


Also:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archive ... d-ukraine/

and

http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.ca/20 ... -anti.html

[cosmicalstorm]

150.000 Russian forces will drill near the Ukrainian border

[cosmicalstorm]

Crimea is heating up. Another Georgia soon? Maybe time to change the thread-title.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/2 ... 8320140227

UKRAINE: ARMED MEN HAVE SEIZED REGIONAL GOVERNMENT BUILDING AND PARLIAMENT IN CRIMEA - LOCAL TATAR LEADER QUOTED BY INTERFAX

[K. A. Pital]

Crimean rebels have seized the parliament and government building, I can confirm that. I know some guys who are there in the rebellion.

Turns out fascism may actually not be on the rise in the police and other forces as others claim.

If that's really the guy who has been attacked by a bomb, I am really skeptical of any statements that are made. Regardless, fascism is on the rise.

Moreover, they emphasized in particular that they will ruthlessly combat such manifestations in their own midst.

Of course! They have to keep face for the world media. Otherwise it will be hard to portray their powergrab as something good. However, the process has started with Tiagnibok getting half the government. He isn't a "nationalist", he's a Nazi (his doctrines are identical to NSDAP; his party's structure and ideology also are), and their emblem is the sign of oath to Nazi collaborators. Note how Halician Nazis weren't even present in Rada during prior elections. Now the Nazis almost dominate the Rada - their program of ukrainization is being realized right now, not anything moderate or sensible.

I mean no disrespect: Nazis are well-organized, disciplined, they are relatively uncorrupt (kind of like the early NSDAP). It's just the fact that they're Nazis which bothers me, Thanas. Even non-corrupt and popular Nazis remain Nazis.

Also, Latvian nationalists promised in 1990s that "everyone will have equal rights and become a citizen of New Latvia regardless of which language he speaks". It was a lie, and everything Ukrainian Nazis say now is a lie.

The only good Nazi is you know what.

[IronStar]

Turns out fascism may actually not be on the rise in the police and other forces as others claim.

Oh, this again. I ve already posted too much information proving that it is on the rise indeed. And i ll repeat something of this especially for you- attorney-general is from "Svoboda"(and he fires everybody at the moment- guess who are going to become new attorneys?) , right sector is ALREADY being implemented in the enforcement system- damn i lost count how many times i ve posted words of the current Domestic affairs minister where he said that right sector will be integral part of enforcement an that right sector members will be in DAF ministry- and he kept his word- in Kiev right sector is currently akin to police and right sector members have hight rank positions in DAF ministry. And i ve read some people living in Kiev- they said that right sector patrols streets with remaining police, and police didnt seem to be in charge.......

And i dont mean at all that the main cause of demonstrations were fascists. As i already said, people at maidan had full right to do what they did(what bothers me are the supported fascists activity , the fact that opposition leaders are not better than Yanukovich and all this EU idea being shitty). And Stas is absolutely right about their organization- you can have whatever large amorphous crowd you want be it 50k 100k or even 200k doesnt matter when one has very well organized, trained and equipped group(to the point that right sector committed successful diversions behind the lines of riot forces).

And guess how good right sector is going to be in this role- i ve already posted the vid with their extremely fast reaction at somebody having different opinion that theirs.

And last time- all known facts indicate that Maidan movement doesnt mind ultra-right nazi from being there and supporting them- actually Maidan supports them, and wont be even close to this success without right wing combatants, who carried out almost all government buildings takeover in the west cities and could fight the police far more effectively than common maidan protesters.

Of course! They have to keep face for the world media.

This. And remember about damn HItler- if judge him by his speeches and program- he is a democratic left.

with Tiagnibok getting half the government

Hmm, now it is not true- he recently said, that he personally doesnt want to be in government(that list i ve posted actually turned out to be preliminary and he said nothing about svoboda members) the list of the cabinet of ministers is negotiated now and its is still unknown. However this doesnt change anything- right sector has enforcement now. And sector is very dangerous overall as i said.

News from Crimea- Crimea government buildings captured and occupied http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26364891 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... nt-reports
These are really good news.

More- everybody knows about luxury of Yanukovich s mansion, but what about opposition leaders
Found nothing in english, but photographs are pretty self explanatory http://oleglurie-new.livejournal.com/166575.html how funny that leader of opposition s Batkivshina party- Yacenuk(who also is likely to become president or prime minister) has his mansion just near the infamous mansion of Yanukovich.

[K. A. Pital]

Revolution - the only solution.

Turchinov already said that people controlling the government buildings in Crimea are "separatists" and "terrorists", despite the fact that local parliament is no longer even protected by the police, it's protected by the crowds. Local Ukrainian nationalists said that Ukraine should start an "anti-terrorist operation in Crimea" and "put down the separatists with the same severity as Russia does in its anti-terrorist operations".

I'm watching and learning.

[Thanas]

Crimean rebels have seized the parliament and government building, I can confirm that. I know some guys who are there in the rebellion.

Turns out fascism may actually not be on the rise in the police and other forces as others claim.

If that's really the guy who has been attacked by a bomb, I am really skeptical of any statements that are made. Regardless, fascism is on the rise.

Why is any statement made by the actual jewish leader in the Ukraine automatically considered as skeptic but nebulous statements about fascism on the rise without actual incidents of fascists action against jews are given full credence? Do you realize the double standard here? Do the people of Ukraine not deserve the benefit of the doubt?

Of course! They have to keep face for the world media. Otherwise it will be hard to portray their powergrab as something good. However, the process has started with Tiagnibok getting half the government. He isn't a "nationalist", he's a Nazi (his doctrines are identical to NSDAP; his party's structure and ideology also are), and their emblem is the sign of oath to Nazi collaborators. Note how Halician Nazis weren't even present in Rada during prior elections. Now the Nazis almost dominate the Rada - their program of ukrainization is being realized right now, not anything moderate or sensible.

They don't get half the Government, they don't get the most important ministries, the president is not a fascist, they will not win the election.

I mean no disrespect: Nazis are well-organized, disciplined, they are relatively uncorrupt (kind of like the early NSDAP). It's just the fact that they're Nazis which bothers me, Thanas. Even non-corrupt and popular Nazis remain Nazis.

Yes, but not every fascists is as worse as Hitler, just like Krushchev was not Stalin simply because he was a communist. Nuance is important. For now, there is no purge of Jews. FFS, the Jewish community built a militia that fought on Maidan alongside the alleged fascists. They are still there.

Also, Latvian nationalists promised in 1990s that "everyone will have equal rights and become a citizen of New Latvia regardless of which language he speaks". It was a lie, and everything Ukrainian Nazis say now is a lie.

Everything the Russian community say is a lie as well by that standard. Or can we agree that there is a lot of propaganda and grey area here and absolutes are wrong?

[K. A. Pital]

1. President is not a key figure of power; constitution has been changed to the 2004 one. Ukraine is under parliamentary control now. Presidency is a secondary matter.
2. "Svoboda" will be in the parliament, and it already has a huge share of the government.
3. Fascists and more importantly Nazis shouldn't even exist, regardless of what they say, much less rule. NSDAP was a good, uncorrupt party with millions of German supporters from all classes in the 1930s, Hitler was a politican respected in the West, a true saviour of Germany as many said. If a fascist thinks that all communists are the same, I agree: for a fascist they are the same, they are unquestionable enemies.
4. The Russian community may say whatever they want, fact is: Russian-speaking people have not received "citizenship" and "equal rights" regardless of language knowledge, and this is an absolute truth regardless of whether they lie all the time. It's a fact.

My position is that:
1) Government is in disarray and effectively mob rule in a bankrupt state. We can call it revolutionary rule.
2) Every region and town may implement revolutionary rule too, if they have enough people and the guts to do it.
3) It is pointless to appeal to "due process" now. If people depose their governments in the South-East by forces, that is their right. You agree that people had the right to depose Yanukovich by force, right?

[IronStar]

Government is in disarray and effectively mob rule in a bankrupt state. We can call it revolutionary rule.

Today Yacenuk confirmed absolute bankcrupcy of state and declared forthcoming bad reduction of social sphere.

More- already mentioned by me leader of UNA-UNSO Alexander Muzichko with his "friends" shows the attorney of Rovno city who is in charge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujeIYPH0V4k

[Mange]

Revolution - the only solution.

Turchinov already said that people controlling the government buildings in Crimea are "separatists" and "terrorists", despite the fact that local parliament is no longer even protected by the police, it's protected by the crowds. Local Ukrainian nationalists said that Ukraine should start an "anti-terrorist operation in Crimea" and "put down the separatists with the same severity as Russia does in its anti-terrorist operations".

I'm watching and learning.

It's armed thugs who have seized the parliament building, so an operation of some kind would be needed.

[Thanas]

1. President is not a key figure of power; constitution has been changed to the 2004 one. Ukraine is under parliamentary control now. Presidency is a secondary matter.

So? Doesn't mean fascists control them.

2. "Svoboda" will be in the parliament, and it already has a huge share of the government.

So? Doesn't mean fascists control the government.

3. Fascists and more importantly Nazis shouldn't even exist, regardless of what they say, much less rule. NSDAP was a good, uncorrupt party with millions of German supporters from all classes in the 1930s, Hitler was a politican respected in the West, a true saviour of Germany as many said. If a fascist thinks that all communists are the same, I agree: for a fascist they are the same, they are unquestionable enemies.

Communists should also not exist if we are talking about outlawing extremism. Why should they be believed whereas the opinion of the jewish representative is suddenly supposed to be viewed with skepticism? Because he disagrees with the notion that the fascists are just waiting to cleanse the Ukraine?

4. The Russian community may say whatever they want, fact is: Russian-speaking people have not received "citizenship" and "equal rights" regardless of language knowledge, and this is an absolute truth regardless of whether they lie all the time. It's a fact.

It is also a fact that Jews were part of Maidan. Doesn't speak so well when you try to paint them all as fascist, right?

My position is that:
1) Government is in disarray and effectively mob rule in a bankrupt state. We can call it revolutionary rule.
2) Every region and town may implement revolutionary rule too, if they have enough people and the guts to do it.
3) It is pointless to appeal to "due process" now. If people depose their governments in the South-East by forces, that is their right. You agree that people had the right to depose Yanukovich by force, right?

Yes. I also agree that the east may try and do the same thing if they want to. But let's not try to paint the Russian part of the population as heroes or their cause as more good and more righteous than that of the west.

[K. A. Pital]

It's armed thugs who have seized the parliament building, so an operation of some kind would be needed.

It is very nice that you think people from the "Right Sector" who seized the parliament building in Kiev are "armed thugs", but no operation can remove them. In fact, their operation has removed the government from power so effectively that it has collapsed.

Rebels in Crimea (just like their Kiev counterparts) allowed the deputees to come and work, and they have already planned a referendum. You don't like a referendum? Why?

So? Doesn't mean fascists control them.

Forced ukrainization was on the books of one political party. That was "Svoboda". Now this is the program of the Parliament, necessary legal acts are made and Farion will be minister of culture (the same person who called the minority of primarily Russian-speaking people in the Ukraine 'mutilated ukrainians'). This means fascists dictate legislation.

Communists should also not exist if we are talking about outlawing extremism.

That is true. Since the anarcho-left wing views that I hold are tantamount to a thought crime here and in many other nations, ratting me out will have negative consequences for my life. In many nations I would end up in prison for my views.

It is also a fact that Jews were part of Maidan. Doesn't speak so well when you try to paint them all as fascist, right?

It is a fact Jews were on the Maidan, and it is also a fact that anitsemitism isn't a core objective for fascists (although for the Nazis it is). Since only part of Ukraine's fascists are de-facto Nazis, it is clear that fascists are providing a counterpoint to the Nazis here. Kind of like Mussolini not being such a crazy Jew-exterminator like Hitler.

But let's not try to paint the Russian part of the population as heroes or their cause as more good and more righteous than that of the west.

Oh, they aren't. But if they succeed, they will be in a very short order at least in their respective media. Victoris write history, but vae victis.

[Mange]

It's armed thugs who have seized the parliament building, so an operation of some kind would be needed.

It is very nice that you think people from the "Right Sector" who seized the parliament building in Kiev are "armed thugs", but no operation can remove them. In fact, their operation has removed the government from power so effectively that it has collapsed.

Rebels in Crimea (just like their Kiev counterparts) allowed the deputees to come and work, and they have already planned a referendum. You don't like a referendum? Why?

Who have said anything about me being against a referendum? I think greater autonomy as was the case before 1995 would be a compromise everyone should be happy with. But armed thugs occupying the parliament building and hoisting the flag of another country (and that in a country which has suffered from Russian/Soviet imperialism) can hardly be tolerated.

[Thanas]

Forced ukrainization was on the books of one political party. That was "Svoboda". Now this is the program of the Parliament, necessary legal acts are made and Farion will be minister of culture (the same person who called the minority of primarily Russian-speaking people in the Ukraine 'mutilated ukrainians'). This means fascists dictate legislation.

Svoboda does not control the parliament. They don't.

That is true. Since the anarcho-left wing views that I hold are tantamount to a thought crime here and in many other nations, ratting me out will have negative consequences for my life. In many nations I would end up in prison for my views.

There are no thought crimes in Germany. But you cannot just say that fascists are problematic and claim communism is not. Both are extremely problematic, it just depends on the application how problematic they become, like in any democratic process.

It is a fact Jews were on the Maidan, and it is also a fact that anitsemitism isn't a core objective for fascists (although for the Nazis it is). Since only part of Ukraine's fascists are de-facto Nazis, it is clear that fascists are providing a counterpoint to the Nazis here. Kind of like Mussolini not being such a crazy Jew-exterminator like Hitler.

K, just glad we got that cleared up as the view expressed in this very thread not so long ago was that Jews would be purged etc.

Oh, they aren't. But if they succeed, they will be in a very short order at least in their respective media. Victoris write history, but vae victis.

Well, the guy who first said that got his head split of as a result, so....

But still. I really doubt there will be widespread progroms.

[K. A. Pital]

Who have said anything about me being against a referendum? I think greater autonomy as was the case before 1995 would be a compromise everyone should be happy with. But armed thugs occupying the parliament building and hoisting the flag of another country (and that in a country which has suffered from Russian/Soviet imperialism) can hardly be tolerated.

In what "country", Mange?

1. Crimea never belonged to Ukraine before being transferred by voluntary decision of a government nobody elected some 50 years ago. Right? Right.
2. Putting up the flag of the only country that's likely to help when Ukrainian security service or armed forces will come storming the Perekop to "punish the separatists and restore territorial integrity" is right, since no other country would intervene and help. The West would see how Crimean independence would be drowned in blood with glee - they armed Saakashvili's Georgia to restore its territorial "integrity" by force. This is not me being bad.
3. Just like Ukraine's not Russia, Crimea may choose not to be Ukraine but to be Russia. It is very hurtful for nationalistic morons from the West, but so what? There aren't even any schools where Ukrainian is taught in Crimea by the self-admission of Ukrainian nationalists, and that with their rump autonomy and officials being handpicked by Kiev. With a revolutionary government and referendum they just might wave good bye to Kiev once and for all.

If you think that they don't have such a right, why?

Svoboda does not control the parliament. They don't.

Then this means other so-called parties are fascist stooges.

There are no thought crimes in Germany. But you cannot just say that fascists are problematic and claim communism is not.

I am not saying only fascists are problematic and communists or anarchists aren't. We are problematic. But the fascists - there's literally nothing stopping them. You see any communists in power? I don't see even the "official" i. e. tolerated communist officials anywhere near power. I also see out-of-parliament and "legal" communists being beaten by the fascist gangs in the Ukraine, that I can see very well since I've got contacts.

I think that if the EU was truly anti-fascist (it's not) it would kick out states that have fascist parties in power. For electing fascists. Also it would never make association agreements with, or give money to, states that have fascists represented in power. To make it clear: you elect fascists, you go to hell and experience terrible economic misery. But the EU isn't anti-fascist. Fascist parties operate with impunity. I don't hold high hopes for moderate powers. Even fascists and wahhabites are good when you need to reach some geopolitical objectives. But when someone else protests, crush them like in Bahrain and sell weapons to KSA.

[IronStar]

also see out-of-parliament and "legal" communists being beaten by the fascist gangs in the Ukraine, that I can see very well since I've got contacts.

I think that you know about this.
Communist party of Ukraine member Yaroslav Karachencev caught by fascists, brought to maidan and told to be one of snipers

From what i know he was horribly beaten and tortured(tortured may be exaggeration but still)

I think that if the EU was truly anti-fascist

It concerns USA but i will just leave it here.....

[K. A. Pital]

The USA always supported fascists and even forces much worse than fascists (Hekmatyar in Afghanistan) as a counterpoint to the USSR. That was the whole point of GLADIO, the support of neo-fascists and still existing old fascists in Europe all was done with America's blessing. All Latin American fascists are made in the USA. Asian fascists were also made in the USA, including Sukharto who is much worse than anything a nationalist Ukraine may ever produce.

I mean, of the USA can support people like Pol Pot, Hekmatyar or Sukharto with money, weapons and diplomatic action, supporting Tiagnibok is nothing.

[Thanas]

Svoboda does not control the parliament. They don't.

Then this means other so-called parties are fascist stooges.

How come? They have not outlawed russian-speaking citizens to vote. They have not started cleansing undesirables.

I am not saying only fascists are problematic and communists or anarchists aren't. We are problematic. But the fascists - there's literally nothing stopping them. You see any communists in power? I don't see even the "official" i. e. tolerated communist officials anywhere near power. I also see out-of-parliament and "legal" communists being beaten by the fascist gangs in the Ukraine, that I can see very well since I've got contacts.

I think that if the EU was truly anti-fascist (it's not) it would kick out states that have fascist parties in power. For electing fascists. Also it would never make association agreements with, or give money to, states that have fascists represented in power. To make it clear: you elect fascists, you go to hell and experience terrible economic misery. But the EU isn't anti-fascist. Fascist parties operate with impunity. I don't hold high hopes for moderate powers. Even fascists and wahhabites are good when you need to reach some geopolitical objectives. But when someone else protests, crush them like in Bahrain and sell weapons to KSA.

Communist parties also operate with as much impunity as fascists in the EU, it is just that they don't get elected due to the recent overwhelming failure of communism being much more in the mind of people (and because they suck at campaigning). But I'll note that the party which the state has tried to ban over and over in Germany is the NPD and not the MLPD.

As for punishing states who elect fascists, I think it leads down a very dark path where bureaucrats from Brussels decide what is accpetable and what not and which deals democracy a fatal blow by outlawing opinions and debate. If someone claims that for example Poland is the greatest nation on earth and that it deservers special consideration, is he a nationalist, fascist or a politician who tries to get the most for his country? The borders are fleeting.

But also please take note that the EU has levied pressure and sanctions against perceived threats to democracy, see the Haider/Austria situation. Actually, the FPÖ is another of the borderline situations - are they fascists, conservatives, nationalists, revanchists etc.? Who gets to decide what is and what is not an acceptable political ideology?

If a raving madman starts talking about how all the jews need to be burned then OK, he can get sanctioned (and will, see Austria). But you cannot just start punishing people because they disagree with you.


As for the McClain pictures, we know that he is a nutcase. He also is not the EU and not even the US.

[Mange]

Who have said anything about me being against a referendum? I think greater autonomy as was the case before 1995 would be a compromise everyone should be happy with. But armed thugs occupying the parliament building and hoisting the flag of another country (and that in a country which has suffered from Russian/Soviet imperialism) can hardly be tolerated.

In what "country", Mange?

1. Crimea never belonged to Ukraine before being transferred by voluntary decision of a government nobody elected some 50 years ago. Right? Right.

That is true. However, it's still part of Ukraine. And driven to its point, I can understand why the Crimean Tatars, who formed the majority population on the peninsula before the Russian annexation in 1783 and still was a sizeable minority before the peninsula was ethnically cleansed in 1944, are deadset against any integration with Russia. Also, just because a majority of the population is Russian, doesn't mean that everyone is pro-Russia either (ethnic Russians were part of the Maidan as well, some of which had travelled from the Crimea).

2. Putting up the flag of the only country that's likely to help when Ukrainian security service or armed forces will come storming the Perekop to "punish the separatists and restore territorial integrity" is right, since no other country would intervene and help. The West would see how Crimean independence would be drowned in blood with glee - they armed Saakashvili's Georgia to restore its territorial "integrity" by force. This is not me being bad.

Are those actual quotes or are you reporting propaganda as facts again? I'm fairly limited as I don't speak either Russian nor Ukrainian, but the only quotes I've seen from for example Interfax are to the effect that those guilty of seizing the parliament building must be punished (and I think that's different from the meaning of your quotes).

It's an extremely provocative gesture and if you're questioning the parliament in Kiev, then you must question just how free the MPs in the Crimean parliament are to act and vote when the building is under control of armed men who shows their loyalty to another country. And no countries should interfere militarily.

3. Just like Ukraine's not Russia, Crimea may choose not to be Ukraine but to be Russia. It is very hurtful for nationalistic morons from the West, but so what? There aren't even any schools where Ukrainian is taught in Crimea by the self-admission of Ukrainian nationalists, and that with their rump autonomy and officials being handpicked by Kiev. With a revolutionary government and referendum they just might wave good bye to Kiev once and for all. And with 26 percent of the population of the Crimea being ethnic Ukrainian, I'd like to see some source to that claim.

If you think that they don't have such a right, why?

I can not have an opinion on this, but I'd say that any referendum should be made with the consensus of both the national and regional parliament. And as I said, I think greater autonomy for the Crimea is a compromise everyone should agree to. I am also of the firm opinion that the rights of all minorities must be safeguarded.

[K. A. Pital]

As for punishing states who elect fascists, I think it leads down a very dark path where bureaucrats from Brussels decide what is accpetable and what not and which deals democracy a fatal blow by outlawing opinions and debate. If someone claims that for example Poland is the greatest nation on earth and that it deservers special consideration, is he a nationalist, fascist or a politician who tries to get the most for his country? The borders are fleeting.

Oh come on. If people from Brussels can't see Nazi symbols right under their nose, yeah, they're probably unqualified to be the judging bureaucrats, I agree. Fatal blow to democracy - is the failure of this parliamentary democracy to provide people with any semblance of a decent life, their states are being run by thugs, liars and security fanatics, but instead leading nations into financial ruin, collapse, civil strife and finally another strongman coming out on top of things. EU transfusions may help to slow this process, but I highly doubt they'll reverse it.

But you cannot just start punishing people because they disagree with you.

Europe and America almost destroyed the economy of Tehran because they thought they wanted to have nuclear weapons, a right that a sovereign state has and will always have.

Also, just because a majority of the population is Russian, doesn't mean that everyone is pro-Russia either (ethnic Russians were part of the Maidan as well, some of which had travelled from the Crimea).

Ethnic Russians who stood side by side with the very fascists and nazis that on their web forums say Russians are the eternal enemy and should be forcibly ukrainized are most likely useful idiots, often they're recruited from football fan groups that are infused with right-wing fascist movements.

However, it's still part of Ukraine.

Decisions of a government that you say is not democratic cannot be considered authoritarive.

I can understand why the Crimean Tatars, who formed the majority population on the peninsula before the Russian annexation in 1783 and still was a sizeable minority before the peninsula was ethnically cleansed in 1944, are deadset against any integration with Russia

You want to allow 10% of the population to dictate its will to the others? I like democracy, but this is not it. This is ethnocracy and ethnic dictatorship.

...the only quotes I've seen from for example Interfax are to the effect that those guilty of seizing the parliament building must be punished (and I think that's different from the meaning of your quotes).

Yatsenuk and UDAR said that they will not tolerate any separatism. Turchinov said that SBU should solve the separatist problem and arrest those who instigate separation, so there's no question about what will happen to people who demonstrate against Crimea's Ukrainian fate. So if it comes to a standoff, who is going to help?

It's an extremely provocative gesture and if you're questioning the parliament in Kiev, then you must question just how free the MPs in the Crimean parliament are to act and vote when the building is under control of armed men who shows their loyalty to another country. And no countries should interfere militarily.

If the "armed men" are loyal to another country, why their only demand is a referendum on Crimean status? Why not demand the deputees to sign a declaration of independence at gunpoint? And I know that the Parliament in Crimea is at gunpoint. Just like the Rada. Any revolution is worth anything only when it can defend itself. Right now it's uprising versus uprising. We'll see what happens next.

I can not have an opinion on this, but I'd say that any referendum should be made with the consensus of both the national and regional parliament.

Regional parliament can give it's agreement, the national is not necessary. For the national parliament will never sanction separatism, even if this is the will of the region.

I am also of the firm opinion that the rights of all minorities must be safeguarded.

I have not heard that Tatars in Kazan, Russia, suffered recently. So even in the worst case (Crimea goes to Russia, not becomes independent) I don't think minorities will suffer. Also, Russians are a minority in the Ukraine, their rights currently are being trampled. Should Europe do anything?

[Mange]

I'm sorry Stas, I can't reply to the entire post until tomorrow, but I would like to clarify that I specifically had the Russian minority in mind. The Ukrainian parliament has been criticised by EU officials etc. for its decision to repeal the minority language law and I am also of the opinion that it was the wrong decision to make.