Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

[Gandalf]

I'm *fairly* sure that a mandatory vote may not be 100% legal in the US; the Constitution mandates that all people should have an *opportunity* to vote, it doesn't say they HAVE to vote. That said, it's mostly a semantic game and I honestly see no reason (for myself; as I said, 'fairly' sure, there may be legal niceties I'm not aware of) that a mandatory vote couldn't be required.

Seems fairly easy to avoid with a null vote or None Of The Above option on the mandatory ballot.

Here the mandatory part is getting your name marked off the rolls. You can just put a blank ballot in the box if you like. More than you'd think draw dicks on them.

[FaxModem1]

Happy Veterans Day. From the troop perspective, how about being so ill prepared that you don't have things like non-MRE food and electricity set up in the tents for the heat:

Axios

What's happening: Troops at the border are sleeping in tents that house 20 soldiers and have no electricity or air conditioning, with some suffering heat exhaustion within days of starting the mission. There's no mess hall — only pre-made "Ready-to-Eat" meals — and the only phone chargers available are attached to "a few generators that power spotlights around the living area."

Wow. It's almost like a spur of the moment decision affecting thousands of people can lead to negative consequences if not thought through. Who'd have thunk it?

[The Romulan Republic]

Honestly, this probably isn't the politically correct thing to say, especially today, but my sympathy is very limited. I don't want them to drop dead of heatstroke or something, but at least the soldiers don't have to worry about being torn from their families, having their children locked in cages, or being deported back to somewhere where the local gangs will murder them, in addition to having shitty food and living conditions. I guess they didn't choose their orders, but they did choose to follow the orders of an evil man.

But yeah, everything about this is a debacle.

[Mr Bean]

Honestly, this probably isn't the politically correct thing to say, especially today, but my sympathy is very limited. I don't want them to drop dead of heatstroke or something, but at least the soldiers don't have to worry about being torn from their families, having their children locked in cages, or being deported back to somewhere where the local gangs will murder them, in addition to having shitty food and living conditions. I guess they didn't choose their orders, but they did choose to follow the orders of an evil man.

But yeah, everything about this is a debacle.

IT'S A GOOD THING THEY CAN SAY NO AND GO HOME IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT
OH FUCKING WAIT
THEY ARE FUCKING SOLDIERS THAT'S THE DAMN JOB



Man it sucks being in the desert washing cars humping packs around knowing your doing nothing far away from home acting a political prompts far from your family knowing your wasting your damn time. Man we love doing this kind of thing so much.

RR on Veteran's day seriously? I can bring you to a country where the military does not always pay attention to the central goverment and if they don't like the orders they stay home or overthrow the government, it's called Thailand and they like to have at least one coup every ten years, it's done wonders for their civic systems.

Seriously, what bright shinny world free of care and worry do you live in that you think "I don't like the President" is a valid reason for disobeying an order, even a dumb order if it's a legal order? Trump talked big but the orders were the same given in 2006 and 2012 by two other Presidents the difference is they sent more people and did less planning and it sucks for the troops out there.

Sympathy my ass your either an idiot or a sociopath.

[FaxModem1]

Honestly, this probably isn't the politically correct thing to say, especially today, but my sympathy is very limited. I don't want them to drop dead of heatstroke or something, but at least the soldiers don't have to worry about being torn from their families, having their children locked in cages, or being deported back to somewhere where the local gangs will murder them, in addition to having shitty food and living conditions. I guess they didn't choose their orders, but they did choose to follow the orders of an evil man.

But yeah, everything about this is a debacle.

Dude. Orders are orders, and being deployed stateside at the border to help wash cars isn't an unconstitutional order. And unconstitutional orders are the only type of order that they can legally refuse.

If you want to be realpolitik about it, since troops apparently don't mean a thing to you, think about how this can be ammunition to tell Moderate Republicans on how Trump is bad for the troops.

[The Romulan Republic]

Honestly, this probably isn't the politically correct thing to say, especially today, but my sympathy is very limited. I don't want them to drop dead of heatstroke or something, but at least the soldiers don't have to worry about being torn from their families, having their children locked in cages, or being deported back to somewhere where the local gangs will murder them, in addition to having shitty food and living conditions. I guess they didn't choose their orders, but they did choose to follow the orders of an evil man.

But yeah, everything about this is a debacle.

IT'S A GOOD THING THEY CAN SAY NO AND GO HOME IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT
OH FUCKING WAIT
THEY ARE FUCKING SOLDIERS THAT'S THE DAMN JOB



Man it sucks being in the desert washing cars humping packs around knowing your doing nothing far away from home acting a political prompts far from your family knowing your wasting your damn time. Man we love doing this kind of thing so much.

RR on Veteran's day seriously? I can bring you to a country where the military does not always pay attention to the central goverment and if they don't like the orders they stay home or overthrow the government, it's called Thailand and they like to have at least one coup every ten years, it's done wonders for their civic systems.

Seriously, what bright shinny world free of care and worry do you live in that you think "I don't like the President" is a valid reason for disobeying an order, even a dumb order if it's a legal order? Trump talked big but the orders were the same given in 2006 and 2012 by two other Presidents the difference is they sent more people and did less planning and it sucks for the troops out there.

Sympathy my ass your either an idiot or a sociopath.

First, let me apologize. I spoke out of anger, and had I been thinking more calmly, I probably would have chosen different words, particularly on this day. I meant no personal offence to you or anyone else.

That said, I think that there is a valid discussion to be had about how far "just following orders" extends as a justification, about how unconditional support for the troops should be, and about how much responsibility soldiers bear for obeying unjust orders, even if arguably or technically legal.

You are of course correct that it does no good for a country to have soldiers casually disobey the orders of the civilian government. It can do just as much damage or more, however, for soldiers to simply follow their orders without question. My reason here is not "because I don't like the President". It's "because the President deployed troops as part of a campaign of low-key/gradual ethnic cleansing in the United States, and of turning the United States into an autocracy."

I understand that you're offended. I understand that given your experiences, it is probably easier for you to empathize with the plight of the troops. But you know what offends me? Refugees treated as an invading army. Soldiers deployed on American soil as a fucking election stunt. The casual abuse of power by a President who locks little children in cages to punish their parents for the crime of being foreign. If that's sociopathy, then I guess I'm a sociopath.

Yeah, it sucks that soldiers get treated like shit by the government. It sucks even more that that government is trying to treat unarmed, desperate refugees, including children, as an invading army to score political points, and nudge the country a little bit closer to dictatorship. Those soldiers swore an oath to defend the United States against all enemies both foreign and domestic, yes? To be loyal to the Constitution, and not the President? Well right now, the single greatest threat to the country and freedoms those soldiers swore to defend is the one sitting in the White House.

I'll give the Pentagon this much credit though: they refused Trump's order to use the troops for law enforcement/armed patrols, and scaled it back to a support role. Which may be the only reason that we're not faced with a choice between civil war or a military dictatorship right now.

Honestly, this probably isn't the politically correct thing to say, especially today, but my sympathy is very limited. I don't want them to drop dead of heatstroke or something, but at least the soldiers don't have to worry about being torn from their families, having their children locked in cages, or being deported back to somewhere where the local gangs will murder them, in addition to having shitty food and living conditions. I guess they didn't choose their orders, but they did choose to follow the orders of an evil man.

But yeah, everything about this is a debacle.

Dude. Orders are orders, and being deployed stateside at the border to help wash cars isn't an unconstitutional order. And unconstitutional orders are the only type of order that they can legally refuse.

If you want to be realpolitik about it, since troops apparently don't mean a thing to you, think about how this can be ammunition to tell Moderate Republicans on how Trump is bad for the troops.

The troops mean something to me, in so far as they are living begins who possess the same fundamental rights as every other person. I'm not convinced that the military is inherently more deserving of respect or sympathy than any other subset of humanity- like, say, the little children that they're being used to threaten.

The fact is, there have been a lot of times in history where the world is a better place because somebody disobeyed orders- even legal orders. There are probably a hell of a lot more times where the world would have been a better place if they had, but they didn't. Is this one of those times? Maybe. Maybe not. But if we continue down our current path, our soldiers will certainly have to face that choice sooner rather than later. We all will.

[Elheru Aran]

To me (bearing in mind my brother is in the Marines), if I was in the situation of being deployed to the border:

I would not see being deployed somewhere else in the US as an 'unlawful order'. Perhaps I would consider the political reasons for such an order to be a steaming POS, but that would not be my business as a member of the military. Patrolling the border with guns would not be unlawful either from a military standpoint; it's more or less just another exercise as far as they're concerned, from their ethical standpoint. Again, the political reason for the order may suck monkey gonads, but again, it's not their business.

Where it -does- become their business is if they have to actually interact with foreign nationals directly, and/or come into conflict with them. If events become... "kinetic" as my brother put it, then -that- is when you may start seeing some conscientious objectors. Soldiers refusing to fire when ordered, that kind of thing. But just humping packs along the border? Assisting CBP? That kind of thing? Nah. Just the soldier's lot in life.

Frankly-- not being a member of the military, but being related to one, and having been exposed to a fair degree of militaria via said relationship (he was a Marines nut as a kid too), and last but not least regularly reading Terminal Lance-- my understanding is that the military in general goes to no little effort to carefully distance itself from politics, for extremely good reason. The only real occasion they have for politics is when they want new toys, and then that's bipartisan, generally. But on a pretty much day-to-day basis, they treat politics like a live land-mine. Their duty is more or less to do as they are told and uphold national security; beyond that, hell no. Thinking about WHY you're given certain orders is allowed, sure... but you don't exactly get a choice on whether or not you follow the orders, and if you don't follow the orders, you better have a damn good reason. Not wanting to hump packs along the border isn't going to fly. Not wanting to shoot unarmed migrants... that would probably fly, if they were ordered to do so. But at this point, they haven't been.

[Ralin]

IT'S A GOOD THING THEY CAN SAY NO AND GO HOME IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT
OH FUCKING WAIT
THEY ARE FUCKING SOLDIERS THAT'S THE DAMN JOB

And they chose to do that job. They chose to enlist, they decided that they were willing to be part of America's multiple wars of aggression in the past couple decades and they chose to either enlist or stay despite the election of Cheeto Hitler.

So fuck them. Heatstroke is the least they deserve.

Seriously, what bright shinny world free of care and worry do you live in that you think "I don't like the President" is a valid reason for disobeying an order, even a dumb order if it's a legal order?

The one inhabited by people who aren't jackbooted cowards. I have nothing but contempt for anyone who follows Trump's orders.

Sympathy my ass your either an idiot or a sociopath.

Sorry, I'm confused. Was this supposed to be aimed at the pigs on the border? Because I don't think RR has mentioned ever enlisting.

[Napoleon the Clown]

The difficult part of "Fuck people who join the military" is that recruiters are predatory motherfuckers that go and target high school kids who can't afford college but want to go. Sign on with the military, lad, and we'll pay for your education! Like, they literally specifically target 16 and 17 year olds and make it sound like this is the opportunity of a lifetime, the only way to get out of poverty and get ahead in life.

Even at 18 people are dumb and super easily manipulated. I think it is a terrible mistake to join the military to get cheaper schooling but I fully understand why there are people who do it. At no point did I think having to potentially murder someone to be worth cheaper education, but I'm aware that not everybody makes the connection that joining the military is implicitly agreeing to do heinous shit. They don't believe they'll ever be forced into doing something they find immoral. And then there are the poor sods that have been spoon-fed all the propaganda from the cradle so they end up buying into the patriotism bullshit. Kids who haven't had the opportunity to experience a world outside what they were raised in and don't know better.

And then there are the family members of people in the military, who I really don't think should be forced to suffer. Especially children of deployed soldiers. A kid can't choose their parents.

[Zaune]

How about we hold off on condemning the soldiers who've been deployed to the border until and unless they commit any actual crimes against humanity, eh? The majority of them probably don't like this any more than any other sane American, and they haven't actually done anything illegal or even immoral yet.

And while I suppose you could argue that continuing to serve in the US military while Dollar Store Mussolini is in power constitutes tacit support, the absolute last thing we need is for every soldier who won't obey a blatantly unlawful order to hand in their resignations, because then the only US soldiers left to send will be the ones who will.

[The Romulan Republic]

The difficult part of "Fuck people who join the military" is that recruiters are predatory motherfuckers that go and target high school kids who can't afford college but want to go. Sign on with the military, lad, and we'll pay for your education! Like, they literally specifically target 16 and 17 year olds and make it sound like this is the opportunity of a lifetime, the only way to get out of poverty and get ahead in life.

Even at 18 people are dumb and super easily manipulated. I think it is a terrible mistake to join the military to get cheaper schooling but I fully understand why there are people who do it. At no point did I think having to potentially murder someone to be worth cheaper education, but I'm aware that not everybody makes the connection that joining the military is implicitly agreeing to do heinous shit. They don't believe they'll ever be forced into doing something they find immoral. And then there are the poor sods that have been spoon-fed all the propaganda from the cradle so they end up buying into the patriotism bullshit. Kids who haven't had the opportunity to experience a world outside what they were raised in and don't know better.

And then there are the family members of people in the military, who I really don't think should be forced to suffer. Especially children of deployed soldiers. A kid can't choose their parents.

These are fair points. One can argue that an 18 year old is old enough to be held responsible for their own choices (that's certainly the view of the criminal justice system), but the circumstances which drive people into making those choices should be taken into consideration.

How about we hold off on condemning the soldiers who've been deployed to the border until and unless they commit any actual crimes against humanity, eh? The majority of them probably don't like this any more than any other sane American, and they haven't actually done anything illegal or even immoral yet.

And while I suppose you could argue that continuing to serve in the US military while Dollar Store Mussolini is in power constitutes tacit support, the absolute last thing we need is for every soldier who won't obey a blatantly unlawful order to hand in their resignations, because then the only US soldiers left to send will be the ones who will.

As is this.

On the one hand, I want to resist the idea that "following orders" is an excuse. But on the other hand, you're right that if the shit were to really hit the fan, we would be much better off if all the people with consciences hadn't resigned.

In the worst case scenario (not to suggest that this will or should happen, but just to illustrate the point), a civil war would not be decided by Antifa vs the Klan or whoever. It would be decided by how the bulk of the armed forces/law enforcement/the intelligence community choose to act.

[Gandalf]

Does the "predatory recruitment" argument also apply to other organisations? I'm thinking street gangs and the like, which offer a fucking lot to people in shitty situations.

[The Romulan Republic]

Does the "predatory recruitment" argument also apply to other organisations? I'm thinking street gangs and the like, which offer a fucking lot to people in shitty situations.

There's a difference in circumstances between joining a legal organization which our society largely idolizes, and an illegal one. But yes, pressure/coercion from gang recruiters should be taken into account when judging young gang members. Circumstances should always be taken into account.

Which is a pretty apt example here, actually, in terms of bringing the discussion full-circle back to immigration. Because a lot of those refugees coming to the border are fleeing situations where the local gangs basically told them "join us/pay up or die".

[Napoleon the Clown]

Does the "predatory recruitment" argument also apply to other organisations? I'm thinking street gangs and the like, which offer a fucking lot to people in shitty situations.

At least to some extent, it should be factored in. The recruiters are scum. To some extent, though, the military is treated as a legitimate and proper way to get out of a bad life circumstance whereas membership in a criminal group is... not, so it's more obviously a shitty idea. I don't like to treat everything as black and white. (With some exceptions)

[Galvatron]

How about we hold off on condemning the soldiers who've been deployed to the border until and unless they commit any actual crimes against humanity, eh? The majority of them probably don't like this any more than any other sane American, and they haven't actually done anything illegal or even immoral yet.

I imagine Mattis will have something to say if Trump tries something stupid or unlawful.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... mp/569350/

On a related note:

[The Romulan Republic]

I hope so. I can't say I have a very high opinion of any of Trump's cabinet, but Mattis at least seems to have some sense of duty beyond "Serve the President's every whim" or "Make America White Again". But I guess we won't know how he will act until we see it (and maybe not then- a lot of conversations happen behind closed doors).

Frankly, I'm surprised Mattis has held his position this long.

[Galvatron]

Yeah, about that...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 31684d5f2c

[The Romulan Republic]

Yup. Sooner or later, Dickless will try to purge anyone who isn't a complete crony.

[Ralin]

The difficult part of "Fuck people who join the military" is that recruiters are predatory motherfuckers that go and target high school kids who can't afford college but want to go. Sign on with the military, lad, and we'll pay for your education! Like, they literally specifically target 16 and 17 year olds and make it sound like this is the opportunity of a lifetime, the only way to get out of poverty and get ahead in life.

Not all of them are equally bad and circumstances of why they enlisted should be taken into account just as much as what they did while they were in uniform, same as with anything else, sure. But hand-waving that most of them were just dumb kids who wanted to get out of poverty and make something of themselves glosses over the fact that we're nearly two decades into the War on Terror and that we have a literal generation's worth of evidence that it was and is wrong and horrible. We can and should expect people old enough to enlist to recognize that and hold them responsible accordingly, just like we do with anti-vaxxers, or the racists we keep hearing about in the ‘white working class’ and so forth. Otherwise we end up with a situation where the only people responsible for these wars are Bush, Obama and a double handful of other people at the top and the literal foot soldiers who made it happen get a pass unless they cross the line (set by US government and allies) by committing something recognized as a war crime.

Does that mean that the soldiers waving the flag on the border for Trump right now all deserve to be rounded up and shot? No. But I’m sure not going to waste sympathy on people who ended up being miserable because they had to spend however much time in a shitty tent in the desert because they made the mistake of signing up for the United States armed forces.

And then there are the family members of people in the military, who I really don't think should be forced to suffer. Especially children of deployed soldiers. A kid can't choose their parents.

Bush has a family too. If he’d been tried and convicted of war crimes and stripped of his fortune they likely would have suffered too.

At least to some extent, it should be factored in. The recruiters are scum. To some extent, though, the military is treated as a legitimate and proper way to get out of a bad life circumstance whereas membership in a criminal group is... not, so it's more obviously a shitty idea. I don't like to treat everything as black and white. (With some exceptions)

Very true. But one of the ways to change that is calling the military out on their evil shit, and that includes telling the people who enlist that they’re scum for doing so. Pitching any criticism to make it clear that of course we’re not blaming the brave boys who signed up to protect our country just perpetuates the idea that the military is special and should never be insulted or attacked and that it’s just a few bad eggs that are responsible. And then we end up a decade later with everyone acting like it was all Bush and his dastardly Republican mind control powers while the people who did the actual killing and logistics are blameless. An army can't be separated from the people its made of.

[Galvatron]

Yup. Sooner or later, Dickless will try to purge anyone who isn't a complete crony.

I doubt that even a GOP-controlled Senate would tolerate a madman as SecDef. They had no say over Bolton because the position didn't require confirmation, but they'd sure as hell have a say over who replaces Mattis.

Besides, a lot of them have to face an election in two short years...

[The Romulan Republic]

Yup. Sooner or later, Dickless will try to purge anyone who isn't a complete crony.

I doubt that even a GOP-controlled Senate would tolerate a madman as SecDef. They had no say over Bolton because the position didn't require confirmation, but they'd sure as hell have a say over who replaces Mattis.

Besides, a lot of them have to face an election in two short years...

Well, they were okay with a man who repeatedly perjured himself on air being the swing vote on the Supreme Court...

[Galvatron]

That was before the midterms. I think they may have had a wake-up call since then.

Besides, SecDef isn't a lifetime appointment. It's not worth expending as much political capital as a SCOTUS confirmation.

[The Romulan Republic]

That was before the midterms. I think they may have had a wake-up call since then.

You have more faith in the sanity of Republicans than I. Especially since they may yet turn out to have gained (albeit marginally) in the Senate, which is where this would be hashed out.

Besides, SecDef isn't a lifetime appointment. It's not worth expending as much political capital as a SCOTUS confirmation.

That is a fair point, yes.

[Mr Bean]

First, let me apologize. I spoke out of anger, and had I been thinking more calmly, I probably would have chosen different words, particularly on this day. I meant no personal offence to you or anyone else.

That said, I think that there is a valid discussion to be had about how far "just following orders" extends as a justification, about how unconditional support for the troops should be, and about how much responsibility soldiers bear for obeying unjust orders, even if arguably or technically legal.

Accepted but it's not just a choice of words you had intent as well as indicated by what you say a little bit farther on

I understand that you're offended. I understand that given your experiences, it is probably easier for you to empathize with the plight of the troops. But you know what offends me? Refugees treated as an invading army. Soldiers deployed on American soil as a fucking election stunt. The casual abuse of power by a President who locks little children in cages to punish their parents for the crime of being foreign. If that's sociopathy, then I guess I'm a sociopath.

To you every single person in the entire Federal government is guilty of the Trump administration's actions and it's a nice straw men as the men and women of our armed forces spending thanksgiving on the border region camping out in the sun and sweeping the gravel roads for dust are not the same people who put kids into cages and let them sit there, the military is not the check on the President, the Congress and the Courts are, the fact they are failing to do their job is not an indication for violent overthrow of the government as your directly arguing for

Those soldiers swore an oath to defend the United States against all enemies both foreign and domestic, yes? To be loyal to the Constitution, and not the President? Well right now, the single greatest threat to the country and freedoms those soldiers swore to defend is the one sitting in the White House.

This is an argument for violent overthrow of the US Government, no two ways about it. With all the trials and tribulations that brings about and the impossible to calculate harm it will bring to people, you think revolution will make things better? It's pretty much guaranteed to make everything worse, revolutions are violent messy things. That's one of the small beauties of our system as no matter how terrible the administration the time it takes until the next administration is not that long of a time as this last election has just show, just sixty more days and you should be able to see a change in how things are handled leaving aside anything Muller does.

[The Romulan Republic]

Accepted but it's not just a choice of words you had intent as well as indicated by what you say a little bit farther on

I understand that you're offended. I understand that given your experiences, it is probably easier for you to empathize with the plight of the troops. But you know what offends me? Refugees treated as an invading army. Soldiers deployed on American soil as a fucking election stunt. The casual abuse of power by a President who locks little children in cages to punish their parents for the crime of being foreign. If that's sociopathy, then I guess I'm a sociopath.

To you every single person in the entire Federal government is guilty of the Trump administration's actions and it's a nice straw men as the men and women of our armed forces spending thanksgiving on the border region camping out in the sun and sweeping the gravel roads for dust are not the same people who put kids into cages and let them sit there, the military is not the check on the President, the Congress and the Courts are, the fact they are failing to do their job is not an indication for violent overthrow of the government as your directly arguing for

My intent (beyond simply venting my frustration) was to point out that as unfortunate as the troops' circumstances are, there are bigger victims here- victims those troops are being used to threaten. And that there are times when even soldiers must weigh the importance of following orders against the importance of following their consciences. Are we there now? Maybe, maybe not. But we will be soon, if we continue on this trajectory.

My comments were not intended to advocate violent revolt. We may get to that point, if Trump is not checked, but we're not there yet.

This is an argument for violent overthrow of the US Government, no two ways about it. With all the trials and tribulations that brings about and the impossible to calculate harm it will bring to people, you think revolution will make things better? It's pretty much guaranteed to make everything worse, revolutions are violent messy things. That's one of the small beauties of our system as no matter how terrible the administration the time it takes until the next administration is not that long of a time as this last election has just show, just sixty more days and you should be able to see a change in how things are handled leaving aside anything Muller does.

As you probably know if you frequent the News and Politics section of this forum, I've argued against advocates of violent revolution for some time. I'm still not prepared to condone it or advocate it, and I'm sorry if my comments were taken in that light. My point in citing those oaths was simply this: that when one becomes a soldier in the US military, one takes on obligations to something higher than the President or one's orders. I hope our armed forces remember those oaths, because the strength of those oaths, not our firepower or technology, are the source of whatever greatness our armed forces has.

If Mueller and the Congress cannot curtail Trump successfully- then the armed forces may indeed have to act against him, for the good of the country.