UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

[Solauren]

For non facist regimes, I'm thinking more of a 'you can vote here', not a 'did you vote, and the right way?' tracker

[Vympel]

An article in France has set out the findings of confidential French defence reports on the situation in Ukraine.

War in Ukraine: from caution to panic… What Macron’s shift hides

The article is behind a paywall, but its had extracts translated on twitter:

"A Ukrainian military victory now seems impossible"

The reports Marianne consulted write that Ukraine's counter-offensive "gradually bogged down in mud and blood and did not result in any strategic gain" and that its planning, conceived by Kiev and Western general staffs, turned out to be "disastrous": "Planners thought that once the first Russian defense lines were breached, the entire front would collapse [...] These fundamental preliminary phases were conducted without considering the moral forces of the enemy in defense: that is, the will of the Russian soldier to hold onto the terrain".

The reports also highlight "the inadequacy of the training of Ukrainian soldiers and officers": due to a lack of officers and a significant number of veterans, these "Year II soldiers" from Ukraine - often trained for "no more than three weeks" - were launched into an assault on a Russian fortification line that proved impregnable.

Without any air support, with disparate Western equipment that was less efficient than the old Soviet material ("obsolete, easy to maintain, and capable of being used in degraded mode", the report mentions), the Ukrainian troops had no hope of breaking through. Add to this the "Russian super-dominance in the field of electronic jamming penalizing, on the Ukrainian side, the use of drones and command systems".

"The Russian army is today the 'tactical and technical' reference for thinking and implementing the defensive mode," writes the report. Not only does Moscow have heavy engineering equipment that allowed it to construct defensive works ("almost total absence of this material on the Ukrainian side, and the impossibility for Westerners to supply it quickly") but the 1,200 km front, known as the Sourokovine line (after a Russian general), has been mined to a huge extent.

The reports also highlight that contrary to Ukraine "the Russians have managed their reserve troops well, to ensure operational endurance." According to this document, Moscow reinforces its units before they are completely worn out, mixes recruits with experienced troops, ensures regular rest periods in the rear... and "always had a coherent reserve force to manage unforeseen events." This is far from the widespread idea in the West of a Russian army sending its troops to the slaughter without counting...

"To date, the Ukrainian general staff does not have a critical mass of land forces capable of inter-arms maneuver at the corps level capable of challenging their Russian counterparts to break through its defensive line," concludes this confidential defense report, according to which "the gravest error of analysis and judgment would be to continue to seek exclusively military solutions to stop the hostilities". A French officer summarizes: "It is clear, given the forces present, that Ukraine cannot win this war militarily."

"The conflict entered a critical phase in December"

"The combativeness of Ukrainian soldiers is deeply affected," mentions a forward-looking report for the year 2024. "Zelensky would need 35,000 men per month, he's not recruiting half of that, while Putin draws from a pool of 30,000 volunteers per month," observes a military officer returned from Kiev. In terms of equipment, the balance is just as unbalanced: the failed offensive of 2023 "tactically destroyed" half of Kiev's 12 combat brigades.

Since then, Western aid has never been so low. It is therefore clear that no Ukrainian offensive can be launched this year. "The West can supply 3D printers to manufacture drones or loitering munitions, but can never print men," notes this report. "Given the situation, it may have been decided to strengthen the Ukrainian army, not with fighters, but with support forces, in the rear, allowing Ukrainian soldiers to be freed up for the front," admits a senior officer, confirming a "ramp-up" of Western military personnel in civilian clothes. "Besides the Americans, who allowed the New York Times to visit a CIA camp, there are quite a few Britons," slips a military officer, who does not deny the presence of French special forces, notably combat swimmers for training missions...

"The risk of a Russian breakthrough is real"

On February 17, Kiev had to abandon the city of Avdiivka, in the northern suburbs of Donetsk, which had until then been a fortified stronghold. "It was both the heart and symbol of Ukrainian resistance in the Russian-speaking Donbass," highlights a report on the "battle of Avdiivka," drawing a series of damning lessons. "The Russians changed their modus operandi by compartmentalizing the city, and especially by using gliding bombs on a large scale for the first time," notes this document. When a 155mm artillery shell carries 7 kg of explosive, the gliding bomb delivers between 200 and 700 kg and can thus pierce concrete structures more than 2 m thick. A hell for Ukrainian defenses, which lost more than 1,000 men per day. Furthermore, the Russians use sound suppressors on light infantry weapons to foil acoustic detection systems on the ground.

"The decision to retreat by the Ukrainian armed forces was a surprise," notes this last report, highlighting "its suddenness and lack of preparation," fearing that this choice was "more endured than decided by the Ukrainian command," suggesting a possible onset of "disarray."

"The Ukrainian armed forces have tactically shown that they do not possess the human and material capabilities [...] to hold a sector of the front that is subjected to the assailant's effort," continues the document. "The Ukrainian failure in Avdiivka shows that, despite the emergency deployment of an 'elite' brigade – the 3rd Azov Air Assault Brigade –, Kiev is not capable of locally restoring a sector of the front that collapses," alerts this last report.

What the Russians will do with this tactical success remains to be seen. Will they continue in the current mode of "nibbling and slowly shaking" the entire front line, or will they seek to "break through in depth"? "The terrain behind Avdiivka allows it," signals this recent document, also warning that Western sources tend to "underestimate" the Russians, themselves adept at the practice of "Maskirovka," "appearing weak when strong." According to this analysis, after two years of war, Russian forces have thus shown their ability to "develop operational endurance" that allows them to wage "a slow and long-intensity war based on the continuous attrition of the Ukrainian army."

TL;DR:

- Obvious at this point - counteroffensive fundamentally misconceived and didn't take into account true Russian morale;
- Training of Ukrainian officers and soldiers is inadequate;
- The Russian Army is the "tactical and technical" reference for implementing a defence, with its capability to construct and mine fortified lines that Ukraine simply doesn't have the equipment to match;
- The Russians manage their forces to ensure operational endurance, mixing fresh troops with veterans, ensuring rotation so units aren't worn out, and making sure there are reserves to manage unforeseen events - this endurance allows them to wage a slow, long intensity war to continuously attrite the Ukrainian army;
- Ukraine lacks the critical mass of forces to break through Russian lines;
- Ukraine is not recruiting enough soldiers to maintain combat effectiveness;
- The counteroffensive 'tactically destroyed' 12 Ukrainian brigades;
- The West is sending civilian support staff to Ukraine to free up Ukrainians for combat roles;
- The disorganised Avdiivka collapse bodes ill for future Ukrainian defensive efforts, particularly given the ever increasing use of JDAMskis / Orthodox JDAMs by the Russians; and
- The war cannot be won by Ukraine militarily.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Pentagon requests $300 million from US Congress for Ukraine in next year's budget

The US Department of Defense has released its budget proposal for the 2025 fiscal year. According to the document, it includes $300 million in aid for Ukraine, according to the Pentagon press service.

"The outcome of Putin's cruel and unprovoked war of choice against Ukraine will define global security for decades to come, and we remain determined to meet the moment. The FY 2025 budget requests $300 million to fund the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative," the document stated.

In the US, the federal government's fiscal year runs from October 1 to September 30.

Overall, the administration of President Joe Biden has requested Congress to allocate nearly $850 billion to the Pentagon's budget for the 2025 fiscal year, which is $10 billion less than the previous year. This includes approximately $262.6 billion for the U.S. Air Force, $257.6 billion for the U.S. Navy, $185.5 billion for the Army, and approximately $143.7 billion for various Pentagon agencies.

On February 13, the US Senate passed a bill providing aid to Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan totaling $95 billion. The bill includes over $61 billion in assistance for Ukraine.

For the bill to become law, it must be approved by the US House of Representatives and signed by President Joe Biden. However, on February 16, House spokesman Mike Johnson refused to bring the bill to a vote.

Later reports indicated that the Pentagon is considering whether to use the last source of military aid funding to support Ukraine's military efforts, even without guarantees that these funds will be reimbursed by Congress.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

US announces surprise $300m for Ukraine

The US announced a surprise $300 million military aid shipment for Ukraine on Tuesday after Pentagon accountants found savings in a budget that was presumed to be exhausted.

The White House sidestepped Republicans in Congress, who have blocked a much larger package for Volodymyr Zelensky’s flagging forces in Eastern Ukraine, and announced more weapons to last for a “short period”.

The announcement came as Joe Biden was preparing to host Poland’s Andrzej Duda and Donald Tusk, the Polish president and prime minister, who came bearing warnings that Russia’s aggression will not stop at Ukraine.

“This ammunition will keep Ukraine’s guns firing for a period, but only a short period,” said Jake Sullivan, the White House’s national security adviser.
He added that the aid may only last a fortnight, leaving Ukraine outgunned on the front lines against Russia.

William Burns, the CIA’s director, warned on Monday that without more aid from the US, Ukraine could lose “significant” territory this year”, while a threat assessment by the US’s 18 intelligence agencies found the congressional deadlock was “increasingly shifting the momentum in Moscow’s favour”.

Mr Sullivan said: “It is nowhere near enough to meet Ukraine’s battlefield needs and it will not prevent Ukraine from running out of ammunition in the weeks to come.”

The shipment includes long-range US-made HIMARS rocket systems, anti-aircraft and anti-tank weapons, artillery shells and small arms ammunition, the Pentagon said.

Republican congressmen have stalled Mr Biden’s request for a $61 billion aid package for Ukraine, amid opposition to funding foreign wars and concern about giving Mr Biden a congressional win in an election year.

One senior Pentagon official said the savings for Tuesday’s package came from bulk orders of weapons in earlier shipments, which were delivered at a lower cost than expected.

“In one instance, with 25mm ammunition, we were buying 120,000-plus rounds,” the official said.

“We estimated initially a unit cost of $130 each, but we ended up getting a better price of $93 to help us as we negotiated the contract with the vendor.”

The announcement comes despite a $10 billion deficit in the budget used to send weapons to Ukraine. Lloyd Austin, the secretary of defence, is understood to be concerned about exceeding that figure.

In his opening remarks at his meeting with the Polish leaders, Mr Biden said: “We must act before it literally is too late.

“Because as Poland remembers, Russia won’t stop at Ukraine. Putin will keep going, putting Europe, the United States and the entire free world at risk.”

Russian fighters loyal to Ukraine launch cross border attacks

Ukraine-based armed “sabotage” groups have launched cross-border raids into Russia, temporarily capturing a village while vowing to liberate civilians from Vladimir Putin’s rule ahead of a presidential election.

The Russian defence ministry said Ukrainian “terrorist formations” backed by tanks and armoured combat vehicles tried to invade in three separate directions in Russia’s Belgorod region at about 3am Moscow time (00.00 GMT).

It said that four more attacks by Ukrainian “sabotage and reconnaissance groups” were repulsed around five hours later in Russia’s Kursk region.

Responsibility for the raids was claimed by at least two Ukraine-based armed groups - the Freedom of Russia Legion and the Siberian Battalion - which purport to be made up of Russians opposed to the Kremlin.
Andriy Yusov, a spokesperson for Ukraine’s military intelligence, told Ukraine’s 24 Channel the groups were conducting the operation on Russian territory independently of Ukraine.

In a video captioned “Good morning from the Russian-Ukrainian border”, the Freedom of Russia Legion leader Maximilian ‘Ceasar’ Andronnikov announced their plans to conduct the raid into Russia early this morning.

“We are coming to free you from poverty, poverty and fear, to free you from the dictatorship of the terrorist organisation that has seized power, to give your children an equal life,” Mr Andronnikov said, in front of dozens of Legion fighters.

A post on the Telegram messenger service from the Siberian Battalion posted later read: “Well, we’re finally home. As promised, we are bringing freedom and justice to our Russian land.

“We said earlier that it would not be possible to overthrow the criminal dictatorial regime in the Russian Federation peacefully.

“It can only be eliminated with weapons in hand. That night we began to fulfil the promise. Fierce fighting is taking place on Russian territory.”

The Freedom Legion said it had taken full control of Tyotkino, a village on the edge of Russia’s Kursk region bordering Ukraine, and aired aerial footage, apparently shot by a drone, showing several soldiers running across a field.

The Kremlin denied this takeover, saying they had repelled the attack, but Russia’s Tass news agency cited the local governor as saying one person had been wounded by Ukrainian shelling in Tyotkino.

Local authorities also announced that schools in Kursk would be switching to online classes after the incursion.

The Belgorod and Kursk regions were also attacked by Ukrainian drones in the afternoon and a drone crashed into the Belgorod city administration building, injuring two people, the regional governor said.

The attacks were deliberately timed ahead of the Russian presidential elections later this week, in which Vladimir Putin is expected to win a fifth term in office.

The autocrat is already the longest standing Russian leader since Joseph Stalin; a fifth and eventual sixth term would mean he will rule for another 12 years, well into his eighties and possible to the end of his life.

During Mr Andronnikov’s announcement this morning, he said they were marching into Russia in opposition of Putin’s re-election.

“[Putin] plans to run for another term and rule until his death,” he said. “We will not allow it, we are the same Russians and we also have the right to express our will, and our will is not to recognize the bloody dictator of the President of Russia.

“We will do everything so that he has time to move from the new mountain to the polar air.”

[Ralin]

It's great to hear that Russians opposed to the war are taking up arms against Putin.

Just checking, they aren't Nazis or something, are they? It would be better if they weren't Nazis.

[Vympel]

It's great to hear that Russians opposed to the war are taking up arms against Putin.

Just checking, they aren't Nazis or something, are they? It would be better if they weren't Nazis.

They were Nazis the last time they tried the exact same ineffectual PR stunt just before the last counteroffensive, I can't imagine that has changed.

[madd0c0t0r2]

Ukraine's Siberian Battalion is also distinguished by its anti-colonial discourse. For example, ethnic Tatars, Yakuts and Buryats and representatives of other peoples have joined the Ukrainian army, saying that they intend to fight for "self-determination of the peoples of Russia" and achieve independence from Moscow, and see Ukraine's victory in the war as a step towards this goal

https://www.euronews.com/2023/12/18/sib ... or-ukraine

There have been accusations that the legion and another paramilitary force operating in Ukraine, the Russian Volunteer Corps, have connections with far-right organisations. Caesar was previously a member of the Russian Imperial Movement (RIM), an ultranationalist group that is publicly opposed to Putin but has also fielded pro-Russian fighters in the war since 2014.

Speaking to the Observer, Caesar called himself a “constitutional monarchist”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... ide-russia

So 50% of the two battalions. Would you like to estimate the number of fascists in the russian army, you know, for balance?

[Zaune]

As I have pointed out on previous occasions when this came up, the Ukrainians are not in a position to turn down volunteers just because they have questionable backgrounds.

I would however sincerely hope that their officers and NCOs are under strict instructions that any soldier caught mistreating Russian prisoners or local civilians of the wrong ethnicity is to be dealt with very severely.

[Broomstick]

You know, this would be a useful type of App in most countries.

Polls open, you put in your postal code or whatever, and it goes 'you can vote at the following places....'

Yeah. It's called "Google". At least where I live. Or other search engine of your choice. I type in "Polling places in [county]". There are a couple websites where you type in your home address, they tell you what district you're in (just in case you forgot) and where you can vote. Yes, it's very useful.

However, as it's being used by Russia, is somewhat horrifying. Because the implication is that if you don't vote, they'll know, and do something about it.

Well, yes, of course - it's a means of tracking people and controlling their behavior.

[Dark Hellion]

There have been accusations that the legion and another paramilitary force operating in Ukraine, the Russian Volunteer Corps, have connections with far-right organisations. Caesar was previously a member of the Russian Imperial Movement (RIM), an ultranationalist group that is publicly opposed to Putin but has also fielded pro-Russian fighters in the war since 2014.

Speaking to the Observer, Caesar called himself a “constitutional monarchist”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... ide-russia

So 50% of the two battalions. Would you like to estimate the number of fascists in the russian army, you know, for balance?

Ukraine is so low on Nazis that they are having to import Nazis from Russia...

[wautd]

Apparently people in occupied Donetsk can already vote for Putin in elections. Similar to the earlier sham referendums (where you could choose between joining Russia or leave Ukraine), voters will be protected in their home by the not-at-all intimidating presence of well armed Russian soldiers, to make sure they don't accidentally vote the wrong way. The situation would almost be funny if it wasn't so depressingly absurd

Seriously, I don't understand how there are still westerners who give legitimacy to referendums or elections in Russian occupied Ukrainian territories. Russia can't even organize fair democratic elections within its own borders, never mind in foreign countries under military occupation.

[LadyTevar]

Ukraine's Siberian Battalion is also distinguished by its anti-colonial discourse. For example, ethnic Tatars, Yakuts and Buryats and representatives of other peoples have joined the Ukrainian army, saying that they intend to fight for "self-determination of the peoples of Russia" and achieve independence from Moscow, and see Ukraine's victory in the war as a step towards this goal

https://www.euronews.com/2023/12/18/sib ... or-ukraine

There have been accusations that the legion and another paramilitary force operating in Ukraine, the Russian Volunteer Corps, have connections with far-right organisations. Caesar was previously a member of the Russian Imperial Movement (RIM), an ultranationalist group that is publicly opposed to Putin but has also fielded pro-Russian fighters in the war since 2014.

Speaking to the Observer, Caesar called himself a “constitutional monarchist”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... ide-russia

So 50% of the two battalions. Would you like to estimate the number of fascists in the russian army, you know, for balance?

I was about to post an article about the "Siberian Battalion", but I see it's already been posted at some point.

So far Russia is claiming they've 'repelled the invaders', who entered via the strip of land connecting main Russia to the Baltic Sea? The Obast?

[Vympel]

So 50% of the two battalions. Would you like to estimate the number of fascists in the russian army, you know, for balance?

You'd have a hard time doing that easily, since unlike Ukraine, the Russian military isn't lousy with troops who feel comfortable openly adorning their uniforms with fascist and neo-Nazi symbology like the emblems of various SS units and the Sonnenrad.

https://twitter.com/mossrobeson__/statu ... LXxqwlQYKQ

That generally comes with the territory of one country not tolerating open Nazism in the ranks, and one engaging in official hagiography and apologia for notorious Nazi collaborators and genocidaires at the highest levels so hard they get hit with community notes about who they're celebrating:

https://twitter.com/mossrobeson__/statu ... LXxqwlQYKQ

https://twitter.com/poroshenko/status/1 ... LXxqwlQYKQ

See its not 'balanced', but its factual.

As I have pointed out on previous occasions when this came up, the Ukrainians are not in a position to turn down volunteers just because they have questionable backgrounds.

I would however sincerely hope that their officers and NCOs are under strict instructions that any soldier caught mistreating Russian prisoners or local civilians of the wrong ethnicity is to be dealt with very severely.

What they are in a position to do however is not openly tolerate Nazism in the ranks and establish maintain and propragandise for neo-Nazi units who openly flaunt their ideology to all and sundry, a thing they consistently fail at doing because actually Ukraine does in fact have a Nazi problem, despite credulous / disingenuous western liberals preferring to forget that because it helps Russian propaganda.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Russian border breach: Freedom of Russia Legion declares intent to reach Moscow

Fighters of the Freedom of Russia Legion consider their main mission to be the "march on Moscow" aimed at liberating the Russian Federation from the dictator Vladimir Putin, according to Newsweek.

In a comment to the material, one of the volunteers of the Freedom of Russia Legion, Alexei Baranovsky, with the call sign "Lutik," stated that the fighters intend to eventually carry out a "march on Moscow" for "liberation of Russia from Putin."

"We may not be able to pull it off now, but that is our overarching mission," he said.

Baranovsky noted that the operation of the rebels to break through the Russian border is related to the so-called presidential election in the Russian Federation.

"We may not be able to stop the federal election, but we can disrupt the regional votes, so we are doing what we can by bringing this 'air of freedom' to at least some parts of the country" he explained.
According to Baranovsky, insurgent formations want to activate the frightened internal opposition in Russia.

"As citizens of Russia, we decided that we also want to take part in this election—and this is our way of getting our voices heard. We are voting for an armed resistance to the Putin regime, for an uprising, a revolution," he said, calling on all Russians to join volunteers in the fight against the dictator.

Raids on the territory of the Russian Federation

Yesterday, March 12, the Russian Volunteer Corps together with the Freedom of Russia Legion and the Siberian Battalion broke through the border with Russia and took control of several settlements, including in the Belgorod and Kursk regions.

In addition, Russians complained about drone attacks for two nights in a row. Putin commented on the events in the Belgorod and Kursk regions, blaming Ukraine for this.

The dictator linked the border breakthrough by volunteers with alleged failures on the front and plans to disrupt the "expression of the will of citizens" in the so-called presidential election in the Russian Federation.

Today, Russian volunteers announced strikes on Russian military positions in Belgorod and Kursk. Residents of these cities were urged to evacuate.

[Rogue 9]

Well, good luck to them, they're going to need it. Wagner almost made it, but the Russians doubtlessly expect it from these guys where they didn't with Prigozhin.

[madd0c0t0r2]

So 50% of the two battalions. Would you like to estimate the number of fascists in the russian army, you know, for balance?

You'd have a hard time doing that easily, since unlike Ukraine, the Russian military isn't lousy with troops who feel comfortable openly adorning their uniforms with fascist and neo-Nazi symbology like the emblems of various SS units and the Sonnenrad.

https://twitter.com/mossrobeson__/statu ... LXxqwlQYKQ

That generally comes with the territory of one country not tolerating open Nazism in the ranks, and one engaging in official hagiography and apologia for notorious Nazi collaborators and genocidaires at the highest levels so hard they get hit with community notes about who they're celebrating:

https://twitter.com/mossrobeson__/statu ... LXxqwlQYKQ

https://twitter.com/poroshenko/status/1 ... LXxqwlQYKQ

See its not 'balanced', but its factual.

As I have pointed out on previous occasions when this came up, the Ukrainians are not in a position to turn down volunteers just because they have questionable backgrounds.

I would however sincerely hope that their officers and NCOs are under strict instructions that any soldier caught mistreating Russian prisoners or local civilians of the wrong ethnicity is to be dealt with very severely.

What they are in a position to do however is not openly tolerate Nazism in the ranks and establish maintain and propragandise for neo-Nazi units who openly flaunt their ideology to all and sundry, a thing they consistently fail at doing because actually Ukraine does in fact have a Nazi problem, despite credulous / disingenuous western liberals preferring to forget that because it helps Russian propaganda.

It is true, russian fascists are not wandering around with swastikas spray painted on their vehicles. Well, we get back to the 50% of a swastika depending how you view the Zeiga.

Residents of Khabarovsk, including Young Guard of United Russia members, arranged in a "Z" formation, as organized by the city administration and the United Russia party[53]

Mmm. Love that young guard organisation. Totally not reminiscent of my grandmothers time in the Hitler youth.

But I feel like concentrating on badges sewn onto jackets is still misleading. It is state ideology after all: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruscism

Ivan Ilyin's book 'our tasks' as required reading for state officials.
Aleksandr Dugin, lecturer at Military Academy of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Russia.

It's not a battalion, it's the entire officer corps!

[wautd]

So 50% of the two battalions. Would you like to estimate the number of fascists in the russian army, you know, for balance?

You'd have a hard time doing that easily, since unlike Ukraine, the Russian military isn't lousy with troops who feel comfortable openly adorning their uniforms with fascist and neo-Nazi symbology like the emblems of various SS units and the Sonnenrad.

https://twitter.com/mossrobeson__/statu ... LXxqwlQYKQ

That generally comes with the territory of one country not tolerating open Nazism in the ranks, and one engaging in official hagiography and apologia for notorious Nazi collaborators and genocidaires at the highest levels so hard they get hit with community notes about who they're celebrating:

https://twitter.com/mossrobeson__/statu ... LXxqwlQYKQ

https://twitter.com/poroshenko/status/1 ... LXxqwlQYKQ

See its not 'balanced', but its factual.

As I have pointed out on previous occasions when this came up, the Ukrainians are not in a position to turn down volunteers just because they have questionable backgrounds.

I would however sincerely hope that their officers and NCOs are under strict instructions that any soldier caught mistreating Russian prisoners or local civilians of the wrong ethnicity is to be dealt with very severely.

What they are in a position to do however is not openly tolerate Nazism in the ranks and establish maintain and propragandise for neo-Nazi units who openly flaunt their ideology to all and sundry, a thing they consistently fail at doing because actually Ukraine does in fact have a Nazi problem, despite credulous / disingenuous western liberals preferring to forget that because it helps Russian propaganda.

[wautd]

So 50% of the two battalions. Would you like to estimate the number of fascists in the russian army, you know, for balance?

You'd have a hard time doing that easily, since unlike Ukraine, the Russian military isn't lousy with troops who feel comfortable openly adorning their uniforms with fascist and neo-Nazi symbology like the emblems of various SS units and the Sonnenrad.

The Russian military isn't lousy with arming neo nazis and far right white supremacists to the teeth to fight against Ukraine either. Or do you think that Russian Imperial Legion, Wagner Group, Rusich,... all got their tanks and MRLS systems from Wish.com?
And these paramilitary groups aren't afraid to proudly wear neo nazi symbology too (to be fair, I've seen also Russian soldiers wearing soviet symbology or an emblem of Stalin, which is just as vile as wearing one of Hitler).

Speaking about Nazis fighting in Ukraine, anyone know if this psycho is still alive?

Ukraine does in fact have a Nazi problem,

Unlike Russia? I'm pretty sure that in absolute numbers, they far outnumber the ones in Ukraine.
Also ironic that Putin's regime didn't have a problem of neo nazis holding a procession in one of Russia's major cities, while having a pro peace rally in Russia today is impossible

[Vympel]

Mmm. Love that young guard organisation. Totally not reminiscent of my grandmothers time in the Hitler youth.

LOL yeah dude, the youth wing of a political party named after the expressly anti-fascist Komsomol organisation are exactly equivalent with a state whose political and military figures do open Nazi collaborator apologia and glorification.

But I feel like concentrating on badges sewn onto jackets is still misleading.

Of course someone whose main concern is apparently apologising for Ukrainian Nazis would say that. "Please don't focus on the Nazi symbols sewn on their clothes". Why the fuck not? Do you have an actual reason, beyond the obvious fact that you find it inconvenient to talk about?

It is state ideology after all: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruscism

This is so embarassing for you. "Yes Ukraine might engage in glorification of genocidaires and Nazi collaborators at the highest level of government and lets their troops walk around covered in their symbols, but look at this wikipedia link about a dumb, undefined and amorphous neologism made up by some propagandist specifically during this war to propagandise receptive western liberals like me!"

It's hilarious how apologists for Ukrainian Nazis first instinct isn't to even acknowledge, let alone condemn, obvious and uncontroversial official Nazi glorification but to immediately leap to whatever pathetic whataboutism (ironic!) you can find to try and pretend Russia is somehow equivalent to this, even if that whataboutism was invented literally two seconds ago on the internet.

The Russian military isn't lousy with arming neo nazis and far right white supremacists to the teeth to fight against Ukraine either. Or do you think that Russian Imperial Legion, Wagner Group, Rusich,... all got their tanks and MRLS systems from Wish.com?
And these paramilitary groups aren't afraid to proudly wear neo nazi symbology too (to be fair, I've seen also Russian soldiers wearing soviet symbology or an emblem of Stalin, which is just as vile as wearing one of Hitler).

I'm not even remotely surprised at a western liberal pretending that Hitler and Stalin are morally equivalent figures, lmao. The clarion call of every WW2 Nazi collaborator and their apologists everywhere - "I'm not a genocidal maniac who assisted the Nazis in wiping out my nation's Jews, Poles, Romani, etc - I'm just an anti-Soviet Freedom Fighter. Stalin was just as bad as Hitler! Therefore, my collaboration with the Nazis is an ethical wash!"

If you're so ethically fucked you see no difference between an expressly genocidal state with an expressly genocidal ideology which, if it hadn't been destroyed - by among others the USSR - would have continued extermination Europe's Jews, Romani etc and then carried out an all consuming program of extermination and slavery on tens of millions of people in the USSR - and a state which was not that, then of course you're going to sit here and just do whataboutism to defend Ukraine's official Nazi glofication.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Unlike Russia? I'm pretty sure that in absolute numbers, they far outnumber the ones in Ukraine.

Even if this was a real stat and not some dumb bullshit you made up just now on the spot, get back to me when the Russian government is engaging in official glorification of Nazi collaborators, putting up monuments to them, naming streets after them, consecrating museums in their name, or naming their military units after SS formations.

Also ironic that Putin's regime didn't have a problem of neo nazis holding a procession in one of Russia's major cities, while having a pro peace rally in Russia today is impossible

Neo-Nazis march in the US too, genius. That doesn't mean the US is going to start standing up units with the fucking SS Dirglewanger brigade's emblem. Unlike Ukraine. Your inability to recognise the difference between the mere existence of Nazis somewhere and the state and its major figures engaging in official glorification of the ideology is breathtakingly dumb.

Is there no mendacious argument you won't stoop to here? Like did you ever stop and check yourself as to why you're doing Nazi whataboutism at all?

You don't have to do any of this. You can just say "yeah this is fucked, they should stop". That was actually my only damn point - that notwithstanding Ukraine can't afford to be choosy about who fights for it - which is a justifiable argument - they don't need to put those freaks together into special units with special Nazi symbols and publicly suck them off.

And that observation is met with whataboutism. Amazing.

Do you notice I feel absolutely no need to do this in relation to Russian neo-Nazis? Russia's not a land of milk and honey and enlightenment. Its an authoritarian dystopia which launched a war of aggression against their neighbor. They just meet a minimum standard of not, you know, openly glorifying the worst pieces of shit imaginable and their ideology, lmao.

[wautd]

If you're so ethically fucked you see no difference between an expressly genocidal state with an expressly genocidal ideology which, if it hadn't been destroyed - by among others the USSR - would have continued extermination Europe's Jews, Romani etc and then carried out an all consuming program of extermination and slavery on tens of millions of people in the USSR - and a state which was not that, then of course you're going to sit here and just do whataboutism to defend Ukraine's official Nazi glofication.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Oh please, as if the USSR under Stalin wasn't a genocidal state itself? Stalin had no problems with the mass murder or forceful deportation of millions of ethnic minorities (and not just in Ukraine) himself, and his regime treated the common people just as much as slaves. So yeah, I see Stalin with the same contempt as Hitler, his former ally until he was betrayed by him in 1941

putting up monuments to them

Like this?
Although to be fair, the only one I know of so far. Erecting statues or busts of Stalin, one of history's greatest mass murderers, still seems more popular since Putin's revivalism efforts of the former tyrant

Do you notice I feel absolutely no need to do this in relation to Russian neo-Nazis? Russia's not a land of milk and honey and enlightenment. Its an authoritarian dystopia. They just meet a minimum standard of not, you know, openly glorifying the worst pieces of shit imaginable and their ideology, lmao.

My bad, I thought that you were one of those tankies who think that the existence of Ukrainian neo nazis is a justifiable reason to invade and destroy a whole country, despite Putin always tolerated neo nazis in his own country (provided they show loyalty to him, beat up and intimidate political opposition etc...)

[Vympel]

Oh please, as if the USSR under Stalin wasn't a genocidal state itself? Stalin had no problem in the mass murder or forceful deportation of millions of ethnic minorities (and not just in Ukraine), and his regime treated the common people just as much as slaves. So yeah, I see Stalin with the same contempt as Hitler.

No, it fucking wasn't. That's an outrageous argument. As a matter of objective historical fact, the USSR didn't engage in the deliberate, industrial-scale and organised mass murder of ethnic minorities anywhere, and to equate deportation - however criminal and unjust - with the deliberate, organised extermination of Europe's Jews, Romani and others - and the sheer scale of what they planned to do with Generalplan Ost - is so fucking monstrously insane it beggars the imagination. As for 'treating the common people just as much as slaves', that's even more ridiculous. You're so deep into cartoonishly idiotic anti-communist agitprop you've completely lost sense of reality. You pretend to care about the 'common people' of the Soviet Union while dismissing and equivocating about the Nazis explicitly planning to fucking exterminate 80 million of them for lebensraum!

Quick question, after the end of WW2 could you direct me to all of the genocide the USSR did? I mean there must've been lots of Nazi style death camps and gas chambers and millions of dead, right? They had decades to accomplish this and the Nazis only had a few years! Since you're so convinced that the most expressly genocidal ideology ever conceived and communism are equivalent it should be an easy task.

What you're doing here is uncritically repeating the utter horseshit of anti-communist propagandists and anti-semite Nazi collaborators who fanned out like a plague after WW2 to apologise for their collaboration with Hitler and conniving in the Holocaust. It's simply vile.

What's especially insane is that if fanatical liberal anti-communists applied the standards they purport to apply to the USSR to their own preferred system (i.e. capitalism) the butcher's bill would drive them insane, but I guess the death toll of capitalism carries no ideological content for the liberal.

Like this one of Dmitry Utkin?

Although the ratio of pulling up busts and monuments dedicated to Stalin, one of history's greatest mass murderer

Endless whataboutism. Just amazing. I have a really hard time believing that the Russian government officially sanctioned putting up a monument of people they definitely murdered after they did a failed coup, lmao. Please also tell me how two garden variety scumbags who noone had ever heard of pre-2022 are the moral equivalent of men who willingly helped the Nazis murder tens of thousands of Poles in service of creating an ethnically pure ethnostate?

This entire thing is an absurd digression but it really is amazing how any apologia for the tolerance of Nazism quickly descends into virulent and insane anti-communism - one of the chief attributes of fascism. What a remarkable coincidence with no bothersome historical precedents.

[wautd]

Oh please, as if the USSR under Stalin wasn't a genocidal state itself? Stalin had no problem in the mass murder or forceful deportation of millions of ethnic minorities (and not just in Ukraine), and his regime treated the common people just as much as slaves. So yeah, I see Stalin with the same contempt as Hitler.

No, it fucking wasn't. That's an outrageous argument. As a matter of objective historical fact, the USSR didn't engage in the deliberate, industrial-scale and organised mass murder of ethnic minorities anywhere, and to equate deportation - however criminal and unjust - with the deliberate, organised extermination of Europe's Jews, Romani and others - and the sheer scale of what they planned to do with Generalplan Ost - is so fucking monstrously insane it beggars the imagination. As for 'treating the common people just as much as slaves', that's even more ridiculous. You're so deep into cartoonishly idiotic anti-communist agitprop you've completely lost sense of reality. You pretend to care about the 'common people' of the Soviet Union while dismissing and equivocating about the Nazis explicitly planning to fucking exterminate 80 million of them for lebensraum!

Quick question, after the end of WW2 could you direct me to all of the genocide the USSR did? I mean there must've been lots of Nazi style death camps and gas chambers and millions of dead, right? They had decades to accomplish this and the Nazis only had a few years! Since you're so convinced that the most expressly genocidal ideology ever conceived and communism are equivalent it should be an easy task.

How is the forced deportation and ethnic cleansing of ethnic minorities not organized mass murder when the resulting estimated deaths were up to 1.5 million?
And that's not even including the additional 1.6 million of people who died in Stalin's concentration camps, I mean, Gulag slave labour prison system. Just because Stalin murdered "only" a few million people as opposed to Hitler's tens of millions doesn't mean that he was any less evil than Hitler.

[Dark Hellion]

Who wants to point out that we are now at the point where people are using Ukraines apologia for fascist war criminals as apologia for other fascist war criminals?

[Vympel]

How is the forced deportation and ethnic cleansing of ethnic minorities not organized mass murder when the resulting estimated deaths were up to 1.5 million?
And that's not even including the additional 1.6 million of people who died in Stalin's concentration camps, I mean, Gulag slave labour prison system.

LMAO. You're wilfully quoting from the actual Black Book of Communism, one of the most infamous pieces of express anti-communist propaganda ever devised, and long ago widely discredited. I mean honestly what the fuck? Go read an actual book for fuck's sake, don't just go googling on wikipedia to find support for conclusions you had before looking this shit up. Christ.

Just because Stalin murdered "only" a few million people as opposed to Hitler's tens of millions doesn't mean that he was any less evil than Hitler.

That's an insanely stupid argument. Even leaving aside you're getting your numbers from anti-communist propagandists, if one person is an insane genocidaire who intends to exterminate tens of millions of people to achieve an exterminationist dream of a racially pure ethnostate from the Atlantic to the Urals and another person is not, then of course the former person is going to kill more people than the latter, of course they fully intend to kill many more people than trhey actually did, and of course said person is more evil than the latter. I mean Jesus Fucking Christ what moral system are you operating from?!

What part of expressly genocidal state ideology do you not get?

Do you apply this insane methodology to people who murdered millions in non-communist countries?

Churchill presided over policies that killed millions of people in the Bengal famine in 1943, does that make him morally equivalent to Hitler?

Who wants to point out that we are now at the point where people are using Ukraines apologia for fascist war criminals as apologia for other fascist war criminals?

By all means point out where that happened! With quotes.

It should be really easy to recognise something as self evidently true without immediately deciding it is somehow being used as an apologetic, particularly in the context of how the topic even came up in the first place.

[wautd]

How is the forced deportation and ethnic cleansing of ethnic minorities not organized mass murder when the resulting estimated deaths were up to 1.5 million?
And that's not even including the additional 1.6 million of people who died in Stalin's concentration camps, I mean, Gulag slave labour prison system.

LMAO. You're wilfully quoting from the actual Black Book of Communism, one of the most infamous pieces of express anti-communist propaganda ever devised, and long ago widely discredited. I mean honestly what the fuck? Go read an actual book for fuck's sake, don't just go googling on wikipedia to find support for conclusions you had before looking this shit up. Christ.

Just because Stalin murdered "only" a few million people as opposed to Hitler's tens of millions doesn't mean that he was any less evil than Hitler.

That's an insanely stupid argument. Even leaving aside you're getting your numbers from anti-communist propagandists, if one person is an insane genocidaire who intends to exterminate tens of millions of people to achieve an exterminationist dream of a racially pure ethnostate from the Atlantic to the Urals and another person is not, then of course the former person is going to kill more people than the latter, of course they fully intend to kill many more people than trhey actually did, and of course said person is more evil than the latter. I mean Jesus Fucking Christ what moral system are you operating from?!

What part of expressly genocidal state ideology do you not get?

Do you apply this insane methodology to people who murdered millions in non-communist countries?

Churchill presided over policies that killed millions of people in the Bengal famine in 1943, does that make him morally equivalent to Hitler?

Who wants to point out that we are now at the point where people are using Ukraines apologia for fascist war criminals as apologia for other fascist war criminals?

By all means point out where that happened! With quotes.

It should be really easy to recognise something as self evidently true without immediately deciding it is somehow being used as an apologetic, particularly in the context of how the topic even came up in the first place.

Yeah if you're going to deny Stalin's atrocities and mass murders, his murderous Gulag system and brush label criticism against Stalinism as anti communist propaganda or some shit then there will be no middle ground between us and further arguing about it is a waste of time. In my eyes you're a negationist who sounds little different than a holocaust denier.
And yeah, Churchil was a POS too. But unlike Stalin, at least he never collaborated with the Nazis.

Oh, I almost forgot about this gem

"men who willingly helped the Nazis murder tens of thousands of Poles in service"

Were you talking about the Ukrainian Insurgent Army or the NKVD following Stalin's orders during the Katyn massacre? Because both answers would be correct