The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

[Phantasee]

Here's a real quick article about my local occupation from the Columbia Journal Review. The reporter interviewed me as part of this so a portion of that is also present in there. Apologies for no excerpt, but the website doesn't like my phone very much: http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/cjr_ho ... p?page=all

Nicely done!

[Zinegata]

Are you sure that's because of ability or degree of violence, and not issues like rightist revolutionaries generally being better funded and organised (and supported internationally)?

I'm trying to put this in more civil terms than "righties are more violent" but having trouble getting there...

Okay, so let's say you're in America. Pull A: 1,000 random liberals/democrats off the street and B: 1,000 conservatives/republicans. Compare number of guns owned. Compare military experience. Compare attitudes toward solving political problems with violence/use of force. Maybe be a little sneaky with the last one; ask about quasi-legal violence (get the police to arrest them all) and plainly illegal violence (kill 'em all, let God etc) separately.

Additionally, "rightward" revolutions tend to be toward more authoritarian philosophies while "leftward" revolutions tend to be toward less. End results may vary, of course.

Just a simple factoid, then I'm outta here again:

"Counter-revolutionary" elements typically include the military simply because the military is an institution meant to preserve the existing state and government. And any government worth its salt knows that keeping the military happy (or at least firmly under control) is one of the ways to make sure they remain loyal.

When a failed "left wing" revolution happens, what typically happens is that the revolutionaries are simply too disorganized and undisciplined to take on an organized and discplined fighting force - which is the military. For a successful revolution to happen, more often than not large elements of the military end up switching sides to support the revolution - see Egypt for a recent example.

Moreover, counter-revolutions are also often the result of the original revolutionaries "taking things too far", resulting in some of the military units who originally defected to switch back to the government side. Alternatively, some military units who were "on the fence" originally and stayed neutral could decide that they'd had enough of the "changes" and switched to the counter-revolutionary side.

Anyone wanting to analyze a revolution that had no significant foreign intervention really needs to look at how the military behaves in these situations, and most of the time the winner is the one who got the bulk of the Army's support - regardless of political or ideological inclinations. In a chaotic situation, might ultimately makes right.

[Talk738kno]

It also neglects that, by and large and as a rule, the violent counterrevolutionaries of the right are better at violence than the violent revolutionaries of the left. Exceptions are quite rare, looking at how many 20th century leftist insurgencies there have been. For the left to successfully provoke a revolution, without help from an outside power that either mauls their opposition or arms and trains them heavily... I'm having a hard time thinking of any example other than the original Bolshevik victory in the Russian Civil War, and that was an incredibly difficult fight in which so many circumstances favored the Reds.

What about the Cuban Revolution?

[Simon_Jester]

Are you sure that's because of ability or degree of violence, and not issues like rightist revolutionaries generally being better funded and organised (and supported internationally)?

No.

But I'm sure it happens anyway, regardless of exactly how or why. Leftist revolution is dangerous, and it often fails, giving rise to violently reactionary regimes. That can easily be as bad for the civil rights record and social condition of the country as not having a revolution in the first place.

That's the American context, but if he's speaking historically, right revolutions (or counter-revolutions) have generally been organised by either the rich or the military or both, usually receive better international treatment than left revolutions, etc. You can't just say 'left loses' or 'left does less badness' or whatever.

My point is that the left tends to lose. The left doesn't always lose when it resorts to revolution. But unless it's exploiting an external crisis (foreigners invade and beat up the government more than they do the rebels, a la China) or benefiting from outside support (as many Marxist insurgencies benefited from Soviet and Chinese aid during the Cold War), the leftists lose a lot.

So planning for a victorious leftist revolution is dangerous, regardless of exactly what factors make it so damn hard for leftists to win a revolution.

What about the Cuban Revolution?

I'm not sure. The revolutionaries got some indirect help (from odd quarters sometimes- as with the US arms embargo on the Batista regime), but they weren't being blatantly supplied from outside so far as I know.

I didn't mean to say there weren't any other examples, just that I couldn't think of them off the top of my head. Whereas anyone can think of examples of leftist uprisings, both with and without outside support, that were ruthlessly crushed by a right-wing counterrevolution.

[Zinegata]

Cuba's an interesting case as it's one of the rare instances wherein the rebels had superior military discipline and skill than the government army did (which is partly as a result of the Batista government neglecting to keep their military in decent shape).

Fidel and his compatriots had training from actual war veterans before they landed in Cuba, and they steadily trained and built up their numbers while the government forces generally ran whenever they faced any kind of opposition.

In fact in some battles, Fidel's forces won decisive victories against lopsided odds. In one offensive, the army launched something like 12,000 men against Fidel's army of 300. Fidel's troops not only avoided complete destruction, but they inflicted well over 500 casualties on the army. Even accounting for post-revolutionary propaganda, that still points to the relative incompetence and weakness of the Batista army.

[Tomzilla]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhPdH3wE ... r_embedded

It certainly sheds more light on this controversy. So much could've been done to prevent this from happening. The police gave them plenty of warnings and opportunities to prevent all this. And contrary to what the other videos would lead you to believe, this one showed just how patient and reluctant the officers were. But you should never--ever--stop police officers from leaving. If a police officer tells you you're going to get pepper sprayed for [this reason], please take him seriously, cooperate, and bitch about it later (especially if it was uncalled for). Don't risk finding out the hard way that he wasn't bullshitting you.

It was a tough call with unfortunate results (protestors with asthma should be especially careful). I hope they learned their lesson. But given the attention they've received, I suspect some of these protestors must think they're unstoppable, and won't learn anything of true worth from all this.


Anyway, I'm a bit mixed on this whole issue. While these people have every right to be upset (it's not easy getting a job, so telling them to fuck off, and go work at McDonald's isn't the right answer), this whole organization needs better leadership. I agree with a lot of the criticism being thrown their way.

But I don't agree with the politicians (especially the GOP presidential candidates) who've taken a collective shit on them under the "they have only themselves to blame" pretense. Using that 'logic', I guess the millions of unemployed Americans have only themselves to blame, too. The fact of the matter is these young people were lied to. Growing up, many of them I'm betting were told if they went to college and graduated, they'd have successful careers, make serious bank, and lead happy lives. The truth is they should've known better. They should've changed with the times. Today nobody is guaranteed a job, even if you're a college graduate. So while it sucks they were lead to believe their dream job was waiting for them after college, it's time to move on.

(How do you expect to get a job when you're too busy protesting anyway? Are you going to put that on your resume or something?)

Many, many people should be blamed and held accountable for this recession (Wall Street is among them). I just think there are better ways to do that.

[Bakustra]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhPdH3wE ... r_embedded

It certainly sheds more light on this controversy. So much could've been done to prevent this from happening. The police gave them plenty of warnings and opportunities to prevent all this. And contrary to what the other videos would lead you to believe, this one showed just how patient and reluctant the officers were. But you should never--ever--stop police officers from leaving. If a police officer tells you you're going to get pepper sprayed for [this reason], please take him seriously, cooperate, and bitch about it later (especially if it was uncalled for). Don't risk finding out the hard way that he wasn't bullshitting you.

It was a tough call with unfortunate results (protestors with asthma should be especially careful). I hope they learned their lesson. But given the attention they've received, I suspect some of these protestors must think they're unstoppable, and won't learn anything of true worth from all this.

So why exactly should the relationship of the police with the public be one of hostility and domination? I don't even like domination in the bedroom, I don't want to find it on the streets! Fundamentally, the problem is that conditions have deteriorated in this country to the point where the police are willing to put themselves in situations where they believe it reasonable to spray people sitting on the ground in the face with pepper spray for noncompliance- and people are willing to defend this ridiculous and tragic state of affairs where nobody trusts the police and the police trust nobody and yet nobody does anything to change this situation. This is somewhat tangential to OWS, but I think it's important to recognize that there are a lot of problems that require unconventional solutions to deal with and are nearly invisible, because it's critical to understanding OWS.

Anyway, I'm a bit mixed on this whole issue. While these people have every right to be upset (it's not easy getting a job, so telling them to fuck off, and go work at McDonald's isn't the right answer), this whole organization needs better leadership. I agree with a lot of the criticism being thrown their way.

But I don't agree with the politicians (especially the GOP presidential candidates) who've taken a collective shit on them under the "they have only themselves to blame" pretense. Using that 'logic', I guess the millions of unemployed Americans have only themselves to blame, too. The fact of the matter is these young people were lied to. Growing up, many of them I'm betting were told if they went to college and graduated, they'd have successful careers, make serious bank, and lead happy lives. The truth is they should've known better. They should've changed with the times. Today nobody is guaranteed a job, even if you're a college graduate. So while it sucks they were lead to believe their dream job was waiting for them after college, it's time to move on.

(How do you expect to get a job when you're too busy protesting anyway? Are you going to put that on your resume or something?)

Many, many people should be blamed and held accountable for this recession (Wall Street is among them). I just think there are better ways to do that.

A couple of major questions. Why exactly shouldn't people be guaranteed some kind of job? Should we have a perpetual underclass on welfare with no means to ever leave it? That doesn't sound like it's very healthy as an ideal, and so we should probably look into ways of making sure everybody gets a job if they want them. I mean, you're treating a lot of this as a fait accompli and what people are doing is trying to change things so it doesn't have to be. So I think you're making some critical assumptions about it that are somewhat of a misunderstanding.

Then, too, there really is no other way to hold people accountable for their role in the recession because the people responsible essentially run the US. They have massive influence on the government, and this is the single largest thing that OWS is protesting- that people can smash the economy of the US, drive the entire world into a major recession through their own short-sightedness and stupidity- and none of them will act to fix it, and none of them will accept responsibility for it, and none of them who acted criminally will ever face trial. Because the US is corrupt and being corrupted, and OWS is an attempt to fight that. And it's worrying some in the halls of power, at least. So what the movement wants, in the end, is to have a government that's less corrupt and less corporatist- but the way to get elected is to accept corporate money and the largess of the rich, and thus behold yourself to them. And so the best way to do things for now is to take direct action through protest, in the minds of many.

[Thinktank]

Blah, blah, blah. I just think there are better ways to do that.

And what way is that exactly?

[Tomzilla]

So why exactly should the relationship of the police with the public be one of hostility and domination? I don't even like domination in the bedroom, I don't want to find it on the streets!

I never said the relationship should be one of hostility and domination.

Fundamentally, the problem is that conditions have deteriorated in this country to the point where the police are willing to put themselves in situations where they believe it reasonable to spray people sitting on the ground in the face with pepper spray for noncompliance- and people are willing to defend this ridiculous and tragic state of affairs where nobody trusts the police and the police trust nobody and yet nobody does anything to change this situation.

The conditions in this country have deteriorated, yes.

I posted that video mainly because previous videos, namely the ones that have garnered nationwide coverage, weren’t giving us the full story. I wanted to know why the police did what they did and what the protesters were/weren’t saying and doing.

I don’t think it’s reasonable to block the police from leaving, ignore their warnings, and act like there was no other alternative. That’s just asking for trouble. One can argue they did nothing wrong, but even then, why take the risk? Keep in mind I’m not saying the solution is to never take any risks in life or to never stand up for your rights and the rights of others.

A couple of major questions. Why exactly shouldn't people be guaranteed some kind of job?

That’s a very good question. I’ll do my best to give you a satisfying answer.

Even though everyone should have a job, that doesn’t mean they deserve to keep it.

I hate seeing unemployed people continuing to be unemployed and I hate seeing homeless people continuing to be homeless. But that’s how the system works. It’s a competitive market. If you lose your job, chances are there will be several others eager to take your place. And even that’s not guaranteed nowadays. Your job might just disappear and that’d be the end of it.

Even though I don’t like it, it’d still be a big mistake for us to ignore this unpleasant fact. Of course, I don’t think we should roll over and let this continue to happen. It’s wrong for companies to layoff so many hardworking people without warning, especially if said companies have been doing well, and are doing it just save more money. Company owners and CEO’s deserve to make more money than their employees, but the fact they’re making ludicrous amounts in this country is just asinine. Having that much money is unnecessary unless you’re using it to help those who desperately need it.

Also, what of the people who already have jobs but aren’t carrying their load? What if they’re lazy, unprofessional, and are underperforming? Are you against companies firing employees? While I’d like everyone to have a job, not everyone would be up to the task of keeping it, let alone earning it.

Should we have a perpetual underclass on welfare with no means to ever leave it?

No, we shouldn’t.

That doesn't sound like it's very healthy as an ideal, and so we should probably look into ways of making sure everybody gets a job if they want them. I mean, you're treating a lot of this as a fait accompli and what people are doing is trying to change things so it doesn't have to be. So I think you're making some critical assumptions about it that are somewhat of a misunderstanding.

I’m sorry for giving you that impression. Even if I’m calling it as I see it that doesn’t mean I like what I see and it that doesn’t mean I think it should stay that way.

Blah, blah, blah. I just think there are better ways to do that.

And what way is that exactly?

What do I think the protestors in that video should’ve done? After the police made their arrests, the protestors shouldn’t have prevented them from leaving. Telling the police, “If you let them go, we will continue to protest peacefully!” is a threat. Why? Well, what are you going to do if the police refuse? You see where this is going.

What do I think their organization as whole should do? OWS has how many supporters now? If they have staggering numbers and, given their publicity (like ‘em or hate ‘em, they are being noticed), have accumulated a large enough influence, I’d direct them to their congressmen. Congress wants to keep their jobs like everyone else, so even if they’re being paid to suck Wall Street’s dick, they still want your vote. Help educate the populace, convince them who the real enemy is, and point them in the right direction. The rich have always feared our power to vote.

If you can’t go after the Big Bads, go after their pawns. Without their pieces on the board, they can’t play God.

Do more than just protest (but don’t stop protesting). Many Americans think these people are only college graduates/dropouts who’ve never worked a day in their life (which isn’t true). Some of their members, according to their websites, admit they’re illegal immigrants. That’s not going to help their case, given the poor handling on immigration in this country. This is why having leaders is essential. Otherwise, you’re just another face in the crowd. It’s good to protest because it gets you recognition. I also suggest they start working closely with unions who’ve been treated like shit and, obviously, recruit more unemployed Americans into their fold. This country does sympathize with the unemployed and would be more tolerant of OWS if this became common knowledge.

What I have more to say now goes beyond OWS. It’s my personal gripe on my country and what I’m trying to do to change it.

Americans aren’t educated enough. Americans have corrupted and brainwashed themselves into thinking their leaders represent them. Don’t get me wrong, there are good people governing us. But they aren’t governing the people ‘governing’ them i.e. the rich. Something (more like something’s) needs to be done. The problem is our first line of defense, the education of our young people, has been compromised. If our young people had been better taught and inspired to (among other things) acquire more knowledge, we certainly would have better ideas on how to remove these assholes from power.

But these assholes are cunning. They, unlike a great deal of Americans, are educated. They know what strings to pull. They either control or coerce vast religious groups, the media, the banks, politicians, and public schools into doing their bidding. People they manipulate heavily influence the government as well, which sucks. Luckily, these people aren’t the Legion of Doom. They fear the underclass and with good reason. What would happen if the peasants were to revolt?

There’s another problem. America has always been a sleeping giant. That’s because her people hate getting involved. We’re all about winning the fight and showcasing our awesomeness. But your average citizen is more interested in their own affairs and mistakenly believe what’s happening to others around them doesn’t really affect them. This is a human trait, so it's not exclusively American. That doesn't mean this imperfection can't be 'fixed'.

That’s why I’m an educator. I try to inspire my students not to let schools dissuade them from learning. I try to teach them how important it is and how it can enrich their lives. Our youth are the future for a reason. Sadly, education doesn’t seem to be about the kids at all. Looks more like it’s about the adults, which is counterproductive.

Whatever the solution is that will get us out of this mess; it will take many years to see accomplished. That’s why it’s imperative we get our act together now.

[Losonti Tokash]

Crossposting from another forum with regards to that video:

oh and for you too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... hPdH3wE0_Y
at 13 minutes you can see the new cops walk in and create a path. They are the cops Pike called on his shoulder radio when they protestors sat down. He is patient and calm till then. The cop car pulls all the way up too.

But chief of police said she was told that her cops were surrounded and could not get out. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... spray.html "Spicuzza had initially defended the police action, telling reporters Saturday, "The students had encircled the officers. They needed to exit. They were looking to leave but were unable to get out.""

She also said "It's a very fluid, dynamic situation. These are split-second decisions." which you can find here http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business ... 11-21.html And she's right. Pike was hesitant to use the pepper spray, UNTIL the other cops showed up. Then he started grand standing. And he abused those students.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuWEx6Cfn-I is most telling because you can see the new cops walk up, start to grab the sitting protestors, only to be waved off by Pike. The walk is clear all the way out except for that row of people that Pike tells the cops not to move. Then he steps over them and sprays them. (turn your volume down at this point as the woman videoing it goes hysterical) Around 5:50 the cops are backing out in a circle facing out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGf9wEIX ... er&list=UL shows how thin the "crowd of protestors" is near the gate. Mostly passerbys and cyclists. At 6 minutes the cops start to fall apart and look really scared. They start raising the pepperball guns at students. The city cops are still tugging at them to get them to back up but the Davis cops are slowing down. Pike is the farthest out here. 6:38 Pike starts shaking 2 pepperspray canisters, as the students are telling them they can leave in peace. The cops were basically splitting into two, then they were told to get out, they grouped back up and left.

[open_sketchbook]

An account of being arrested at Occupy LA by a Family Guy writer

What the actual fuck this shit makes me so mad. The way that protestors are regarded in the United States is absolutely bonkers.

[weemadando]

I was about to post that. If you have any doubts about which side is in the right:

-dirty smelly hippies
-some disruption to the public
-"vague demands"

Or

-police brutality
-official protection of and inaction re: billionaire huxsters
-massive, global economy destroying fraud for personal gain

Fucking tough choice there.

[NoXion]

Each seated, nonviolent protester beside me who refused to cooperate by unlinking his arms had the following done to him: an LAPD officer would forcibly extend the protestor’s legs, grab his left foot, twist it all the way around and then stomp his boot on the insole, pinning the protestor’s left foot to the pavement, twisted backwards. Then the LAPD officer would grab the protestor’s right foot and twist it all the way the other direction until the non-violent protestor, in incredible agony, would shriek in pain and unlink from his neighbor.

It was horrible to watch, and apparently designed to terrorize the rest of us. At least I was sufficiently terrorized. I unlinked my arms voluntarily and informed the LAPD officers that I would go peacefully and cooperatively. I stood as instructed, and then I had my arms wrenched behind my back, and an officer hyperextended my wrists into my inner arms. It was super violent, it hurt really really bad, and he was doing it on purpose. When I involuntarily recoiled from the pain, the LAPD officer threw me face-first to the pavement. He had my hands behind my back, so I landed right on my face. The officer dropped with his knee on my back and ground my face into the pavement. It really, really hurt and my face started bleeding and I was very scared. I begged for mercy and I promised that I was honestly not resisting and would not resist.

My hands were then zipcuffed very tightly behind my back, where they turned blue. I am now suffering nerve damage in my right thumb and palm.

Fucking hell. How can anyone say this is anything other using torture to get compliance? What the fuck kind of fascist thug thinks this kind of behaviour is a remotely appropriate response to non-threatening behaviour?

Combined with the deliberate destruction of personal possessions, I can't help but think there is genuine animosity within the ranks of the police towards protestors. Why else would they be treated in this disgusting manner?

[Eulogy]

The LAPD are literally asking for their officers to get killed, or beaten and then killed, for this sadistic and inhuman treatment. This is not being an internet tough guy, these fuckers are setting themselves up for vengeance from relatives and friends of the protesters, if not the protesters themselves.

Anonymous, where are you?

[Alkaloid]

Anonymous, where are you

Um, I would imagine that no small part of them (the part that you actually want to be involved and not the part who don't think beyond 'hur hur lets trash someone so my internet wang feels bigger") are already at the protests.

[Xenophobe3691]

The LAPD are literally asking for their officers to get killed, or beaten and then killed, for this sadistic and inhuman treatment. This is not being an internet tough guy, these fuckers are setting themselves up for vengeance from relatives and friends of the protesters, if not the protesters themselves.

Anonymous, where are you?

Not to mention a complete loss of public goodwill they have spent years trying to cultivate. I mean, I read that, and immediately thought of all the old LAPD stories from years ago.

[Molyneux]

Each seated, nonviolent protester beside me who refused to cooperate by unlinking his arms had the following done to him: an LAPD officer would forcibly extend the protestor’s legs, grab his left foot, twist it all the way around and then stomp his boot on the insole, pinning the protestor’s left foot to the pavement, twisted backwards. Then the LAPD officer would grab the protestor’s right foot and twist it all the way the other direction until the non-violent protestor, in incredible agony, would shriek in pain and unlink from his neighbor.

It was horrible to watch, and apparently designed to terrorize the rest of us. At least I was sufficiently terrorized. I unlinked my arms voluntarily and informed the LAPD officers that I would go peacefully and cooperatively. I stood as instructed, and then I had my arms wrenched behind my back, and an officer hyperextended my wrists into my inner arms. It was super violent, it hurt really really bad, and he was doing it on purpose. When I involuntarily recoiled from the pain, the LAPD officer threw me face-first to the pavement. He had my hands behind my back, so I landed right on my face. The officer dropped with his knee on my back and ground my face into the pavement. It really, really hurt and my face started bleeding and I was very scared. I begged for mercy and I promised that I was honestly not resisting and would not resist.

My hands were then zipcuffed very tightly behind my back, where they turned blue. I am now suffering nerve damage in my right thumb and palm.

Fucking hell. How can anyone say this is anything other using torture to get compliance? What the fuck kind of fascist thug thinks this kind of behaviour is a remotely appropriate response to non-threatening behaviour?

Combined with the deliberate destruction of personal possessions, I can't help but think there is genuine animosity within the ranks of the police towards protestors. Why else would they be treated in this disgusting manner?

I have to ask: is there a point at which it is indisputably legal to defend oneself from this kind of treatment by police officers?

[Exonerate]

Came across articles on how the US is apparently concerned for the protestors in Russia over the recent election. Sure would be nice if we could start promoting democracy at home.

Here's sort of a peripherally related question for Stas: How violent are the recent protests in Russia getting? From what little video I've been able to find of the protests and subsequent arrests, actually it seems like that the Russian police are actually treating their protestors with more restraint than the police here in the US. I'm sure there's a lot behind the scenes that's not getting out, but it's galling that the standard arrest procedure in Russia appears to be less violent than it is in the US.

[open_sketchbook]

Each seated, nonviolent protester beside me who refused to cooperate by unlinking his arms had the following done to him: an LAPD officer would forcibly extend the protestor’s legs, grab his left foot, twist it all the way around and then stomp his boot on the insole, pinning the protestor’s left foot to the pavement, twisted backwards. Then the LAPD officer would grab the protestor’s right foot and twist it all the way the other direction until the non-violent protestor, in incredible agony, would shriek in pain and unlink from his neighbor.

It was horrible to watch, and apparently designed to terrorize the rest of us. At least I was sufficiently terrorized. I unlinked my arms voluntarily and informed the LAPD officers that I would go peacefully and cooperatively. I stood as instructed, and then I had my arms wrenched behind my back, and an officer hyperextended my wrists into my inner arms. It was super violent, it hurt really really bad, and he was doing it on purpose. When I involuntarily recoiled from the pain, the LAPD officer threw me face-first to the pavement. He had my hands behind my back, so I landed right on my face. The officer dropped with his knee on my back and ground my face into the pavement. It really, really hurt and my face started bleeding and I was very scared. I begged for mercy and I promised that I was honestly not resisting and would not resist.

My hands were then zipcuffed very tightly behind my back, where they turned blue. I am now suffering nerve damage in my right thumb and palm.

Fucking hell. How can anyone say this is anything other using torture to get compliance? What the fuck kind of fascist thug thinks this kind of behaviour is a remotely appropriate response to non-threatening behaviour?

Combined with the deliberate destruction of personal possessions, I can't help but think there is genuine animosity within the ranks of the police towards protestors. Why else would they be treated in this disgusting manner?

I have to ask: is there a point at which it is indisputably legal to defend oneself from this kind of treatment by police officers?

I'm no lawyer, but I don't think there is a legal concept of self-defense against police officers. I imagine that fighting back against them in any context will be regarded as resisting arrest or assaulting an officer of the law, and it'd be pretty moot anyway; an effective self-defense is justification for police to to escalate the force they are using to lethal levels. So even if court will clear your name, you'd probably be dead.

[The Yosemite Bear]

no but assualt and rape under the colour of authority does exist in the california penal code.

[CaptainChewbacca]

The only time when American courts have dismessed charges of assaulting an officer in the case of self defense is when the actions of an officer were so egregious that there could be no doubt that they were acting unlawfully (off-duty assaults of innocent people, attacks on unconscious people). I'd hate to be a judge and try to make that call, if for no other reason than it would set a precedent under which criminals COULD legally attack police.

[The Romulan Republic]

The LAPD are literally asking for their officers to get killed, or beaten and then killed, for this sadistic and inhuman treatment. This is not being an internet tough guy, these fuckers are setting themselves up for vengeance from relatives and friends of the protesters, if not the protesters themselves.

Anonymous, where are you?

I hope that's not the response. Just about the last thing we need is to a) make the Occupy Movement look like terrorists, b) end up with a blood bath in the streets, and c) give the government a reason to escalate the response from arrests, beatings, and property destruction to automatic weapons fire.

As for Anonymous, the kinds of things they do will likely make the Occupy Movement look bad as well and are not nessissarily justified.

At the risk of sounding paranoid, I wonder if the police were hoping to provoke the kind of response you're talking about, knowing that it would give them an excuse to be far more brutal and that short of a truly massive uprising, they'd win.

[open_sketchbook]

I think that on some level the organizers of these sorts of things are always hoping for something like that. "Just give me a reason" indeed. A large part of the tactic of "kettling" is to basically force protesters to do something illegal to justify arrests and use of force.

The reason for this may range from the street-level cops being adrenaline junkie or getting a rush from the power, to the high-level guys having an ideological problem with shit-disturbers and holding a jaded "us-vs-them" view of policing from decades inside an increasingly militarized police force.

[Eulogy]

Think the pigs can be sued? There's plenty of evidence and witnesses.

[The Yosemite Bear]

has workied against the LAPD in the past.