UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

Post by Vympel »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-29 06:44pm What part of "more than doubled NATO's pre-existing border with Russia" is confusing to you?
The part where it matters, given where that border is. "Tiny" refers to their population and military capacity, by the way. Finland and Sweden could never be viable bases for a threat to Moscow.
Countries in green actually recognise the legitimacy-
Who gives a shit? The popularity of the annexation with Crimea's people is in no way affected by countries recognising its legitimacy.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Vympel wrote: 2024-01-29 06:47pm
EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-29 06:44pm What part of "more than doubled NATO's pre-existing border with Russia" is confusing to you?
The part where it matters, given where that border is. "Tiny" refers to their population and military capacity, by the way. Finland and Sweden could never be viable bases for a threat to Moscow.
And yet Finland proved to be quite the obstacle to the Soviets in World War 2. You may have heard of this guy:
Simo Häyhä
Countries in green actually recognise the legitimacy-
Who gives a shit? The popularity of the annexation with Crimea's people is in no way affected by countries recognising its legitimacy.
Given that both choices in the referendum would result in de-facto independence, the so-called "popular will" means jack shit.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-29 07:07pm And yet Finland proved to be quite the obstacle to the Soviets in World War 2. You may have heard of this guy:
Simo Häyhä
So what? None of this has any bearing on the issues at play here. That was in service of a broad based Nazi invasion aiming at Leningrad. Not Russia's centre of power. Does Finland joining NATO inconvenience the Russians? Sure. Is it as important to them as Ukraine's status? No, no, no, a thousand times, no. The end.
Given that both choices in the referendum would result in de-facto independence, the so-called "popular will" means jack shit.
Please keep your stories straight. First you argued (absurdly, with no evidence) that the referendum occurred "at gunpoint", i.e. that the referendum's results were a result of duress, now you're arguing that both choices in the referendum would result in independence.

Even if that was true (and it isn't) first of all people could have simply not voted and frustrate the referendum, and second it doesn't change the fact that the annexation of Crimea was and is popular with the population. Because they're mostly Russians. Not just Russian-speaking Ukrainians either, but Russians, proper.

What it sure sounds like is you're just casting about for justifications for this absurd, historically ignorant fantasy you've made up in your head where there's some huge unspoken for majority in Crimea aching to be ruled by a government lousy with Nazi glorifying weirdos from Galicia who hate them, right down to the language they speak. There is no such demographic, sorry. (There's a reason the majority of the Ukrainian military stationed in Crimea simply up and joined the Russian Army when it happened, its really not that complicated.)
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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Vympel wrote: 2024-01-29 07:17pm
EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-29 07:07pm And yet Finland proved to be quite the obstacle to the Soviets in World War 2. You may have heard of this guy:
Simo Häyhä
So what? None of this has any bearing on the issues at play here. That was in service of a broad based Nazi invasion aiming at Leningrad. Not Russia's centre of power. Does Finland joining NATO inconvenience the Russians? Sure. Is it as important to them as Ukraine's status? No, no, no, a thousand times, no. The end.
Russia demanded that NATO leave eastern Europe, invading Ukraine had the opposite effect. The end.
Please keep your stories straight. First you argued (absurdly, with no evidence) that the referendum occurred "at gunpoint", i.e. that the referendum's results were a result of duress, now you're arguing that both choices in the referendum would result in independence.

Even if that was true (and it isn't) first of all people could have simply not voted and frustrate the referendum, and second it doesn't change the fact that the annexation of Crimea was and is popular with the population. Because they're mostly Russians. Not just Russian-speaking Ukrainians either, but Russians, proper.

What it sure sounds like is you're just casting about for justifications for this absurd, historically ignorant fantasy you've made up in your head where there's some huge unspoken for majority in Crimea aching to be ruled by a government lousy with Nazi glorifying weirdos from Galicia who hate them, right down to the language they speak. There is no such demographic, sorry.
What would you call the presence of Russian soldiers if not exactly that? Or are you going to dispute their presence next?

Seeing as how you are obviously unfamiliar with the options presented in the referendum, I'll list them here:

Choice 1: Do you support the reunification of Crimea with Russia with all the rights of the federal subject of the Russian Federation?

Choice 2: Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine?

The referendum's available choices did not include keeping the status quo of retaining arrangements enacted by the 1998 Constitution of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. Additionally, the second choice, is unclear because there were two revisions of the Crimean constitution in 1992. The original 1992 constitution was adopted together with a declaration of independence, but parliament then amended the constitution one day later to affirm that Crimea "was a part of Ukraine".

Basically the choices were either "join Russia", or "leave Ukraine".
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-29 07:47pm Russia demanded that NATO leave eastern Europe, invading Ukraine had the opposite effect. The end.
So you're just engaging in 'neener neener'. Whatever, that's not really relevant to the issues being discussed. We agree what the Russians demand are.
What would you call the presence of Russian soldiers if not exactly that? Or are you going to dispute their presence next?
Prove that Russian troops were engaged in intimidating the population into voting a certain way in the referendum. Explain, if this occurred, how this squares with multiple post-referendum polls evidencing the majority of the population was happy with being part of Russia.
Seeing as how you are obviously unfamiliar-
I'm not unfamiliar with anything, you're just speaking from a script someone gave you because you plainly either can't deal with what I'm telling you, or don't even understand it.

First of all a question including the words "Do you support ...the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine" is not unclear at all. It's pretty unambiguous to me. Saying its ambiguous sounds like some dumb bullshit some propagandist made up and you're simply repeating.

Secondly, as I already said, and which you ignored, the always there third option in that referendum is simply not voting which would frustrate any legitimacy it had by low turnout. Didn't happen.

Like again, this fantasy you're trying to sell where there's some huge unspoken for majority in Crimea aching to be ruled by Ukraine is just that. A fantasy. It has no basis in fact. It's based entirely on racist western cope that can't conceive of anyone, anywhere, preferring a country that the west hates to their chosen client, no matter how corrupt and dysfunctional, no matter the relevant demographic differences or historical background. It has no basis in anything real.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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What would you call the presence of Russian soldiers if not exactly that? Or are you going to dispute their presence next?
Prove that Russian troops were engaged in intimidating the population into voting a certain way in the referendum. Explain, if this occurred, how this squares with multiple post-referendum polls evidencing the majority of the population was happy with being part of Russia.
If you don't realise that their very presence is going to have that effect, then I can't help you.
Seeing as how you are obviously unfamiliar-
I'm not unfamiliar with anything, you're just speaking from a script someone gave you because you plainly either can't deal with what I'm telling you, or don't even understand it.

First of all a question including the words "Do you support ...the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine" is not unclear at all. It's pretty unambiguous to me. Saying its ambiguous sounds like some dumb bullshit some propagandist made up and you're simply repeating.

Secondly, as I already said, and which you ignored, the always there third option in that referendum is simply not voting which would frustrate any legitimacy it had by low turnout. Didn't happen.

Like again, this fantasy you're trying to sell where there's some huge unspoken for majority in Crimea aching to be ruled by Ukraine is just that. A fantasy. It has no basis in fact. It's based entirely on racist western cope that can't conceive of anyone, anywhere, preferring a country that the west hates to their chosen client, no matter how corrupt and dysfunctional. It has no basis in anything real.
Okay, it's pretty ambiguous to anyone to actually understands the wording of the choices, so I'll explain, because what you're ignoring is the "Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992" part. But there were two revisions of the Crimean constitution in 1992- the original 1992 constitution was adopted together with a declaration of independence, but parliament then amended the constitution one day later to affirm that Crimea "was a part of Ukraine". So "the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine" means "not part of Ukraine" if it's the original constitution, or "part of Ukraine" if it's the amended version.

So in actuality it was either "join Russia" or "leave Ukraine", therefore the turnout, even if you believe the official sources (and there's no reason you should) is actually irrelevant.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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@Vympel It is genuinely fascinating to witness this level of brainworm infestation in the wild. Like, I cannot even imagine what series of events would lead you to believe that any of the things you are saying are true (they aren't) but more than that, I haven't seen anyone genuinely trying to argue that Crimea is secretly full of loyal Russians or that the referendum (which occurred at literal gunpoint, not just metaphorical, there were soldiers stationed in the polling places, while the entire region was under military occupation. That's not a legitimate election by anyone's standards but yours apparently) had any kind of legitimacy in well over a year now.

Is this a common viewpoint on this board, or are you just the little jester they keep around to laugh at? Maybe try unhooking your mouth from RT's tailpipe for a moment and come up for air before you answer.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-29 08:33pm If you don't realise that their very presence is going to have that effect, then I can't help you.
In other words, your only explanation is blatant western chauvinism - a majority Russian population are somehow going to be scared by the presence of the same troops on their penninsula that have been there for hundreds of years (because they all live there.)

Even if your blatant chauvinistic assumptions had a basis, we move on to the next part of my challenge - explain, if this occurred, how this squares with multiple western post-referendum polls evidencing the majority of the population was happy with being part of Russia?

Doesn't, does it?

I suppose the majority of the Ukrainian troops on the peninsula who all defected to Russia when it happened were intimidated into doing it too, right?
Okay, it's pretty ambiguous to anyone to actually understands the wording of the choices, so I'll explain, because what you're ignoring is the "Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992" part. But there were two revisions of the Crimean constitution-
Hey quick question, does anyone except some dumb western propagandist who promulgated this idiotic talking point think that the average Crimean voter is cracking open their Crimean political history book and going "but there were two revisions of the Crimean constitution oh I don't know maybe this means not part of Crimea".

It's not an ambiguous question if you read it like a normal person as opposed to some sort of alien jellyfish who doesn't often interact with English. And if that option was the majority option, if it was really as ambiguous as you say, it would be open for all and sundry to argue that they actually supported Crimea's status as remaining with Ukraine, wouldn't it? Delegitimising the result, right? Lol.
MC_Lovecraft wrote: 2024-01-29 08:37pm @Vympel It is genuinely fascinating to witness this level of brainworm infestation in the wild. Like, I cannot even imagine what series of events would lead you to believe that any of the things you are saying are true (they aren't) but more than that, I haven't seen anyone genuinely trying to argue that Crimea is secretly full of loyal Russians or that the referendum (which occurred at literal gunpoint, not just metaphorical, there were soldiers stationed in the polling places, while the entire region was under military occupation. That's not a legitimate election by anyone's standards but yours apparently) had any kind of legitimacy in well over a year now.

Is this a common viewpoint on this board, or are you just the little jester they keep around to laugh at? Maybe try unhooking your mouth from RT's tailpipe for a moment and come up for air before you answer.
The series of events that would lead me to believe the things I'm saying are true is being alive and paying attention at the time they occurred. And you know, multiple western polls confirming it, which all of you and your ilk ignore because you can't deal with it.

The reason you haven't heard it in well over a year probably has to do with the hermetically sealed wartime epistemic bubble you've surely been inhabiting, by the way. Shit's still true, no matter how few times you've heard it lately.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/ ... 09cfda510d
In June 2014, a Gallup poll with the Broadcasting Board of Governors asked Crimeans if the results in the March 16, 2014 referendum to secede reflected the views of the people. A total of 82.8% of Crimeans said yes. When broken down by ethnicity, 93.6% of ethnic Russians said they believed the vote to secede was legitimate, while 68.4% of Ukrainians felt so. Moreover, when asked if joining Russia will ultimately make life better for them and their family, 73.9% said yes while 5.5% said no.

In February 2015, a poll by German polling firm GfK revealed that attitudes have not changed. When asked “Do you endorse Russia’s annexation of Crimea?”, a total of 82% of the respondents answered “yes, definitely,” and another 11% answered “yes, for the most part.” Only 2% said they didn't know, and another 2% said no. Three percent did not specify their position.
"Secretly full of loyal Russians" lmao. Like Crimea is this hotbed of pro-Ukrainian sentiment, yearning to return to the rule of a place who's political center is Lviv, so their homes can be promptly defaced with various commemorations of SS troops errr Ukrainian freedom fighters and they can all be made to learn Ukrainian for the first time in their lives lest they be legally discriminated against. You people live in a fucking fantasy world. Its genuinely insane.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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Vympel wrote: 2024-01-29 09:17pm
EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-29 08:33pm If you don't realise that their very presence is going to have that effect, then I can't help you.
In other words, your only explanation is blatant western chauvinism - a majority Russian population are somehow going to be scared by the presence of the same troops on their penninsula that have been there for hundreds of years (because they all live there.)

Even if your blatant chauvinistic assumptions had a basis, we move on to the next part of my challenge - explain, if this occurred, how this squares with multiple western post-referendum polls evidencing the majority of the population was happy with being part of Russia?

Doesn't, does it?

I suppose the majority of the Ukrainian troops on the peninsula who all defected to Russia when it happened were intimidated into doing it too, right?
Okay, it's pretty ambiguous to anyone to actually understands the wording of the choices, so I'll explain, because what you're ignoring is the "Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992" part. But there were two revisions of the Crimean constitution-
Hey quick question, does anyone except some dumb western propagandist who promulgated this idiotic talking point think that the average Crimean voter is cracking open their Crimean political history book and going "but there were two revisions of the Crimean constitution oh I don't know maybe this means not part of Crimea".

It's not an ambiguous question if you read it like a normal person as opposed to some sort of alien jellyfish who doesn't often interact with English. And if that option was the majority option, if it was really as ambiguous as you say, it would be open for all and sundry to argue that they actually supported Crimea's status as remaining with Ukraine, wouldn't it? Delegitimising the result, right? Lol.
You can produce as many Red Herrings as you want, the referendum's choices were still:
  • Join Russia
  • Leave Ukraine
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-29 09:35pm You can spew as much bullshit as you want, it doesn't change the fact that the referendum's choices were still:
  • Join Russia
  • Leave Ukraine
LMAO amazing. So - as expected - you just run away and hide when asked how polling reflects your bullshit beliefs.

But even more hilariously, you're now saying its a fact that the referendum's second choice was "leave Ukraine".

Yet proverbially two seconds ago - like you just said - "it's pretty ambiguous to anyone to [sic] understands the wording of the choices".

So which is it my dude? Is your "leave Ukraine" interpretation a fact, or is it ambiguous? :lol:

Everything appears to be in a state of constant quantum flux, changing as required in service of your insane belief that Russians in Crimea secretly actually love Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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Vympel wrote: 2024-01-29 09:17pm
EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-29 08:33pm And you know, multiple western polls confirming it, which all of you and your ilk ignore because you can't deal with it.
For the record, I am a communist, and my views on western imperialism probably line up with yours more than most people's, but literally everything you are saying is complete bullshit. Like, there's not even a factual crumb around which you seem to have constructed this delusion, it's all just directly contradictory gainsaying of reality.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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MC_Lovecraft wrote: 2024-01-29 09:41pm For the record, I am a communist, and my views on western imperialism probably line up with yours more than most people's, but literally everything you are saying is complete bullshit. Like, there's not even a factual crumb around which you seem to have constructed this delusion, it's all just directly contradictory gainsaying of reality.
I'm sorry your weird version of reality doesn't allow for acknowledgement of the results of multiple western polls, don't know what to tell you.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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Back to the war itself, Stephen Biddle at Foreign Affairs has put out a good article on how Russia defeated Ukraine in their 2023 offensive. More importantly, he argues that there is no Western aid that could've changed the outcome, and that the war is likely to remain an attritional one due to the lack of permissive conditions for large scale, dramatic breakthroughs.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/ ... s-momentum
Many held high hopes for Ukraine’s 2023 summer offensive. Previous Ukrainian successes at Kyiv, Kharkiv, and Kherson encouraged expectations that a new effort, reinforced with new Western equipment and training, might rupture Russian defenses on a larger scale and sever the Russian land bridge to Crimea. If it did, the thinking went, the resulting threat to Crimea might persuade Putin to end the war.
Comment: this was always a long shot - this idea that Crimea would somehow be "threatened" so Putin would sue for peace, as opposed to escalating further. The rationale for this offensive a was misconceived from the start. But anyway:
The results fell far short of such hopes. Although the summer brought some Ukrainian successes (especially against Russian warships in the Black Sea), there was no breakthrough on land. Limited advances were bought at great cost and have now been significantly offset by Russian advances elsewhere on the battlefield. It is now clear that the offensive failed.

Why? And what does this mean for the future of the Ukraine War and the future of warfare more broadly? Robust answers will require data and evidence that are not yet publicly available. But the best answer for now lies in the way the two sides, and especially the Russian defenders, used their available forces. By late spring, the Russians had adopted the kind of deep, prepared defenses that have been very difficult for attackers to break through for more than the last century of combat experience. Breakthrough has been—and still is—possible in land warfare. But this has long required permissive conditions that are now absent in Ukraine: a defender, in this case Russia, whose dispositions are shallow, forward, ill prepared, or logistically unsupported or whose troops are unmotivated and unwilling to defend their positions. That was true of Russian forces in Kyiv, Kharkiv, and Kherson in 2022. It is no longer the case.

The implications of this for Ukraine are grim. Without an offensive breakthrough, success in land warfare becomes an attrition struggle. A favorable outcome for Ukraine in a war of attrition is not impossible, but it will require its forces to outlast a numerically superior foe in what could become a very long war.

QUESTIONABLE EXPLANATIONS

Some blame the United States for Ukraine’s failed offensive. Not all of Kyiv’s requests for assistance were granted. For example, if the United States had provided F-16 fighters, the long-range missiles known as ATACMS, or Abrams tanks sooner and in larger quantity, they argue, Ukraine could have broken through. More and better equipment always helps, so surely the offensive would have made more progress with more advanced weapons. But technology is rarely decisive in land warfare, and none of these weapons were likely to transform the 2023 offensive.

The F-16, for example, is a 46-year-old platform that would not be survivable in Ukraine’s air defense environment. The United States and NATO are replacing it with more advanced F-35 fighter jets precisely because it is too vulnerable. Although the F-16 has been modernized since its introduction in 1978 and it would be an upgrade to Ukraine’s even older and less survivable Soviet-era MIG-29s, a fleet of F-16s would not give Ukraine air superiority in any way that could create a breakthrough on the ground.

ATACMS missiles would have enabled Ukraine to strike deeper targets, especially in Russian-held Crimea, and this would have reduced the efficiency of the Russian logistical system in particular. But all weapons have countermeasures, and the Russians have already proved adept at countering the GPS guidance that ATACMS uses to hit its targets. The shorter-range HIMARS missile system was highly effective for Ukraine when first introduced to the war in 2022 but is now much less so, in part because the Russians have reduced their reliance on large supply nodes within the weapon’s reach but also because they have learned to jam the GPS signals that both missile systems use for guidance.

American Abrams tanks are far superior to Ukraine’s fleet of mostly Soviet-era T-64s and T-72s. But so are the German Leopard 2 tanks that Ukraine used in the summer offensive. The Leopard 2s performed well but were hardly invulnerable superweapons. Of the fewer than 100 Leopard 2s in Ukrainian service, at least 26 have been knocked out; others cannot be used due to repair and maintenance issues. Like all tanks, the Leopard 2 and Abrams depend on tight combined-arms coordination with infantry, artillery, and engineers at scale to survive on the battlefield, and they require an extensive support infrastructure to sustain themselves in combat. Ukraine proved unable to provide these in 2023. Weakly supported Leopard 2s led the initial summer assaults but made little headway. More such advanced tanks would have helped, but the offensive offers little evidence that better tanks would have been decisive.

Others trace the problem to a broader military revolution in which new technology is held to be making the battlefield too lethal for successful offensive maneuvers, regardless of F-16 fighters, ATACMS missiles, or Abrams tanks. Drones, satellite surveillance, and precision weapons are the technologies that most military revolution theorists now emphasize. Yet all were present for Ukraine’s offensive successes in 2022 as well as its offensive failure in 2023. And the realized lethality of these new systems in actual use has not been radically greater than that of previous generations of weapons in more than a century of great-power combat experience. The Ukraine war experience shows little evidence of any new age of technologically determined defense dominance.

Still others emphasize training and strategic decision-making. The brigades that Ukraine committed to the summer offensive were mostly inexperienced formations that received just five weeks of Western training before the operation. By contrast, British infantry in World War II were given 22 weeks of instruction, then further training in their combat units, and were only then committed to combat. Five weeks is not enough time to master the complexities of modern battle. Some U.S. officers also believe that the Ukrainian general staff diluted the country’s combat power by dividing its efforts across three fronts rather than a single axis, leaving the troops on each front too weak to make headway. Between the diffusion of effort and the limited training of key units, in this view, the Ukrainians were left without the ability to use the assets at their disposal effectively.

INTRINSICALLY DIFFICULT

There is some truth to the training and decision-making arguments. As I argued in a previous Foreign Affairs essay, variations in how forces are used have usually been more important than variations in materiel, so explanations based on force employment have considerable face validity. But these arguments imply that if Ukrainian forces had been better trained and focused, they would have broken through in 2023. Perhaps. But while the Russians have shown little skill or motivation on the offensive, they are now competent defenders. Russian defenses in 2023 were deep, well prepared, fronted by extensive minefields, backed by mobile reserves, and garrisoned by troops who fought hard when attacked. Breakthroughs of defenses like these have historically proven very difficult even for well-trained attackers with a focused main effort.

The German Wehrmacht of World War II is commonly considered among the modern era’s most proficient armies at the tactical and operational levels of war. Yet the German breakthrough attempt at Kursk in southwestern Russia in 1943 failed when confronted with deep, well-prepared Soviet defenses. Erwin Rommel’s German Afrika Corps failed to break through deep Allied defenses at Tobruk in Libya in 1941 despite its air superiority and a major advantage in tanks, and Rommel failed to break through deep Allied defenses at Alam el Halfa in Egypt in 1942.

In fact, it has been very rare historically for attackers to break through defenses of this kind. During World War II, Allied armies with air superiority and crushing numerical advantages still failed against such defenses in Operations Epsom, Goodwood and Market Garden and the battles of Monte Cassino, the Siegfried Line and Villers-Bocage in 1944-45. Nor did this pattern end in 1945. Iraqi armored offensives became bogged down against even moderately deep Iranian defenses in the siege of Abadan in 1980-81, and Iranian offensives failed to penetrate Iraqi defenses in depth at Basra in 1987. More recently, the 1999 battle of Tsorona between Ethiopia and Eritrea and the Israeli invasion of southern Lebanon in 2006 showed a similar pattern, with mechanized offensives making slow progress when they encountered deep, prepared defenses.

Offensive breakthroughs do happen. But they typically require a combination of offensive skill and a permissive environment created by shallow, forward defensive deployments or unmotivated or logistically unsupported defenders or both. The German invasion of France in 1940 knocked France out of the war in a month, and the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 advanced to the gates of Moscow in a season, but both offensives were enabled by shallow, ill-prepared defenses that committed too much of their combat power forward where it could be pinned down, away from the point of attack. The American offensive in Operation Cobra in Normandy in 1944 broke through an atypically shallow, forward German defense. The Israeli offensive in the 1967 War broke through Egyptian defenses in the Sinai in less than six days, but this was enabled by poor Egyptian combat preparations and motivation.

The American offensive in Operation Desert Storm of 1991 reconquered Kuwait in 100 hours, but this was enabled by fatally flawed Iraqi fighting positions and the limited skills of Iraqi soldiers. Similarly, Ukrainian offensives at Kyiv and Kharkiv in 2022 broke through shallow, overextended Russian defenses, and the Ukrainian offensive at Kherson in 2022 overwhelmed a logistically unsustainable Russian defense that was isolated on the western side of the Dnipro River.

By 2023, however, the Russians had adapted and deployed a more orthodox defense in depth without the geographical vulnerability that had undermined them at Kherson. And these better-designed defenses were garrisoned by troops who fought. Russia’s poor performance and weak combat motivation in 2022 had led many to expect Russian incompetence or cowardice or both in 2023, but the Russians had learned enough from their failures to present a much tougher target by then. Perhaps an attacker with U.S.-level skills and training could have broken through, as those who emphasize training or operational decision-making tend to imply. But a large advantage in skill and motivation is needed to breach defenses like these. Ukraine did not enjoy this in 2023, and it is unclear whether even American troops would have the skill differential sufficient for a task this difficult.

QUALITY VERSUS QUANTITY

The resilience of deep, prepared defenses in modern warfare will make it very hard for Ukraine to achieve a decisive breakthrough any time soon. For more than a century, this has required conditions that seem unlikely for Ukraine at this point. The commander in chief of the Ukrainian armed forces, General Valery Zaluzhnyi, has characterized the war as stalemated, but believes that new technology can enable a Ukrainian breakthrough. He’s right on the first point, but probably not the second. War-winning weapons are very rare in land warfare. The difficulty of offensive maneuver in 2023 was not a product of any radical new technology, and it is unlikely that any radical new technology will overturn it. The enemy’s adaptation and the ubiquity of cover and concealment on land limit the ability of new weapons to punch through robust defenses, and Russia’s defenses are now quite robust. Ukraine’s prognosis depends heavily on the future of Western assistance, but even with continued aid, the conflict is likely to remain an attritional war of position for a long time to come, absent a collapse in Russian will to fight or a coup in Moscow. Success for Ukraine will thus require patience for a long, hard war on the part of both Ukraine and its Western allies.

What does this mean for the future of warfare more broadly? Offensive maneuver is not dead. But it has never been easy. It typically requires both a permissive defender and a well-prepared attacker. This sometimes happens: it did in 1940, 1967, and 1991 and probably will again in some times and places. But it is not easy to create a permissive enemy by fiat. And to exploit a permissive enemy properly requires expensive training, equipment, and officer preparation. The payoff can be great when these conditions combine: Germany conquered France in a month, Israel defeated Egypt in six days, and the United States reconquered Kuwait in 100 hours. But the conditions are not always right.

This pattern poses a dilemma for the United States. The U.S. military has long privileged quality over quantity. This has produced a military with the skills and equipment to exploit offensive opportunities when they present themselves, as they did in Kuwait in 1991 and may do again in the future. But if the conditions are not right and attrition warfare results, today’s U.S. military is not built to sustain the losses this could produce. The United States suffered fewer than 800 casualties in 1991 and just over 23,000 in 20 years of counterinsurgency in Afghanistan. But in less than two years of warfare in Ukraine, each side has already suffered over 170,000 casualties. The United States has produced about 10,000 Abrams tanks since 1980; in Ukraine, the two sides together have already lost over 2,900 tanks. The United States is starting to ramp up weapon (and especially ammunition) production now. But to produce expensive weapons in the numbers needed to sustain Ukraine-scale losses will be exceptionally costly. And how will the United States replace today’s long-service professional personnel in the face of Ukraine-level casualties?

If quality can ensure quick, decisive victories, the traditional U.S. approach is sound. But if the lesson of Ukraine’s 2023 offensive, in light of past experience, is that deep and well-prepared defenses remain robust, as they have been for the last century, then quality alone may not be enough to ensure the kind of short wars of quick decisive breakthroughs that U.S. defense planning has long tended to presuppose. Quality is necessary for opportunity but may be insufficient in itself for success. And if so, the United States may need to rethink its balance of quality and quantity in a world where permissive conditions happen sometimes but cannot be guaranteed.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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Vympel wrote: 2024-01-29 09:40pm
EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-29 09:35pm You can spew as much bullshit as you want, it doesn't change the fact that the referendum's choices were still:
  • Join Russia
  • Leave Ukraine
LMAO amazing. So - as expected - you just run away and hide when asked how polling reflects your bullshit beliefs.

But even more hilariously, you're now saying its a fact that the referendum's second choice was "leave Ukraine".

Yet proverbially two seconds ago - like you just said - "it's pretty ambiguous to anyone to [sic] understands the wording of the choices".

So which is it my dude? Is your "leave Ukraine" interpretation a fact, or is it ambiguous? :lol:

Everything appears to be in a state of constant quantum flux, changing as required in service of your insane belief that Russians in Crimea secretly actually love Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych.
You want some Rye Bread to go with that Red Herring you're waving around? :wanker:
...think that the average Crimean voter is cracking open their Crimean political history book and going "but there were two revisions of the Crimean constitution oh I don't know maybe this means not part of Crimea Ukraine"
Yes, that's exactly what they're counting on- why else would the wording of the choices make reference to the Crimean Constitution if not for this very reason? Since they can point to the version that suits them and say, "See, they want to be independent after all!" :lol:
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-29 10:21pm You want some Rye Bread to go with that Red Herring you're waving around? :wanker:
OMG dude you can't be this obtuse. You just can't. Its not a red herring that you can't keep your nonsense straight so on one side of your mouth you're insisting its ambiguous and on the other side of your mouth you're insisting it definitely meant independence from Ukraine. It is one or the other. So which is it?!

If it is ambiguous (its not, its clearly pro-staying-with-Ukraine, but anyway) - and below that's clearly what you're saying now - then everyone who wanted to could argue that it was actually pro-staying-with-Ukraine, delegitimising the result for Russia's purposes. Ambiguity goes both ways! Do you get that's inherent in the definition of the word?
Yes, that's exactly what they're counting on-
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard about this referendum in my entire life. The Russian authorities were counting on every Crimean voter being a fucking constitutional scholar and historian about events which happened almost three decades before the referendum. That's what they were counting on, eh? Wow.
why else would the wording of the choices make reference to the Crimean Constitution if not for this very reason? Since they can point to the version that suits them and say, "See, they want to be independent after all!" :lol:
Even if this absurd argument was true, but they didn't even need to do this, did they? So what the fuck is the purpose of this stupid "ambiguous" framing? It's totally irrelevant! The referendum went exactly the way they wanted it to go, and has been verified by western polls - the thing you still won't even deign to acknowledge. Its genuinely comical how you won't even try to respond to that.

It's hilarious how far arguments trying to pretend the referendum is all just a giant fake disappear up their own ass - why don't you just argue that all of the Russians in Crimea were loyal to Ukraine and they were all frogmarched at gunpoint to Pokemon Go the Polls and vote a certain way? It mean, its totally absurd and there's no evidence for this, but its surely simpler than this baroque inside baseball historical nonsense about one of the poll options being ambiguous, because the supposedly ambiguous option didn't win, and it still ignores the fact - which I raised- and which you again ignored (because as usual you ignore anything you can't respond to) that people didn't need to vote at all.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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Vympel wrote: 2024-01-29 10:35pm
EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-29 10:21pm You want some Rye Bread to go with that Red Herring you're waving around? :wanker:
OMG dude you can't be this obtuse. You just can't. Its not a red herring that you can't keep your nonsense straight so on one side of your mouth you're insisting its ambiguous and on the other side of your mouth you're insisting it definitely meant independence from Ukraine. It is one or the other. So which is it?!

If it is ambiguous (its not, its clearly pro-staying-with-Ukraine, but anyway) - and below that's clearly what you're saying now - then everyone who wanted to could argue that it was actually pro-staying-with-Ukraine, delegitimising the result for Russia's purposes. Ambiguity goes both ways! Do you get that's inherent in the definition of the word?
Yes, that's exactly what they're counting on-
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard about this referendum in my entire life. The Russian authorities were counting on every Crimean voter being a fucking constitutional scholar and historian about events which happened almost three decades before the referendum. That's what they were counting on, eh? Wow.
Nice strawman you've got going there, I was obviously meaning they were counting on the Crimean voters not being aware of the subtle change in the constitution that completely changes what they were voting for. And you call me obtuse? :lol:
why else would the wording of the choices make reference to the Crimean Constitution if not for this very reason? Since they can point to the version that suits them and say, "See, they want to be independent after all!" :lol:
Even if this absurd argument was true, but they didn't even need to do this, did they? So what the fuck is the purpose of this stupid "ambiguous" framing? It's totally irrelevant! The referendum went exactly the way they wanted it to go, and has been verified by western polls - the thing you still won't even deign to acknowledge. Its genuinely comical how you won't even try to respond to that.

It's hilarious how far arguments trying to pretend the referendum is all just a giant fake disappear up their own ass - why don't you just argue that all of the Russians in Crimea were loyal to Ukraine and they were all frogmarched at gunpoint to Pokemon Go the Polls and vote a certain way? It mean, its totally absurd and there's no evidence for this, but its surely simpler than this baroque inside baseball historical nonsense about one of the poll options being ambiguous, because the supposedly ambiguous option didn't win, and it still ignores the fact - which I raised- and which you again ignored (because as usual you ignore anything you can't respond to) that people didn't need to vote at all.
Nice try, but once again you've got it wrong. I don't acknowledge those alleged polls because they're totally irrelevant. You've already gotten rye bread to go with that particular Red Herring, would you like some sliced onions next?
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-29 10:51pm Nice strawman you've got going there, I was obviously meaning they were counting on the Crimean voters not being aware of the subtle change in the constitution that completely changes what they were voting for. And you call me obtuse? :lol:
So as usual you're just going to elide everything else that's wrong with your idiotic 'ambiguity' framing? Like how its a complete waste of time because its the losing option anyway? Or how it would be open to all and sundry to dispute that's what they were voting for?
Nice try, but once again you've got it wrong. I don't acknowledge those alleged polls because they're totally irrelevant. You've already gotten rye bread to go with that particular Red Herring, would you like some sliced onions next?
Oh how nice. If you say its irrelevant, it must be true! No need for any explanation or anything, lol.

You're plainly just interested in the sound of your own voice and anything inconvenient you just dismiss with painfully dated and cringe 'red herring' euphemisms (what do you think this is, 2004?) but you can't argue a referendum doesn't accurately reflect the wills of the populace if subsequent polling matches the result of the referendum. This isn't hard, you're just thoroughly unequipped to experience your dogmatism about this subject colliding with objective reality.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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Vympel wrote: 2024-01-29 10:54pm
EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-29 10:51pm Nice strawman you've got going there, I was obviously meaning they were counting on the Crimean voters not being aware of the subtle change in the constitution that completely changes what they were voting for. And you call me obtuse? :lol:
So as usual you're just going to elide everything else that's wrong with your idiotic 'ambiguity' framing? Like how its a complete waste of time because its the losing option anyway? Or how it would be open to all and sundry to dispute that's what they were voting for?
Because obviously, if the second option wins, Russia can say it means Crimeans wanted to leave Ukraine, if it's doesn't, Russia can say they wanted to join Russia. This isn't rocket science.
Nice try, but once again you've got it wrong. I don't acknowledge those alleged polls because they're totally irrelevant. You've already gotten rye bread to go with that particular Red Herring, would you like some sliced onions next?
Oh how nice. If you say its irrelevant, it must be true! No need for any explanation or anything, lol.

You're plainly just interested in the sound of your own voice and anything inconvenient you just dismiss with painfully dated and cringe 'red herring' euphemisms (what do you think this is, 2004?) but you can't argue a referendum doesn't accurately reflect the wills of the populace if subsequent polling matches the result of the referendum. This isn't hard, you're just thoroughly unequipped to experience your dogmatism about this subject colliding with objective reality.
You mean like how you ignore that nobody but you actually thinks that sham of a referendum is legitimate, and you never stopped to wonder why that might be? Pot, meet kettle.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-29 11:18pm Because obviously, if the second option wins, Russia can say it means Crimeans wanted to leave Ukraine, if it's doesn't, Russia can say they wanted to join Russia. This isn't rocket science.
This is like talking to a brick wall. It is out of this world incredible. Just remarkable stuff.

Let's try one more time.

You've harped on and on and on about how Russia can say it means Crimeans wanted to join Russia.

Did it ever occur to you what other countries who are not Russia would say about this option?

And again, it didn't win anyway.

What is the point of this painfully stupid and obtuse line of argument? It serves no purpose.
You mean like how you ignore that nobody but you actually thinks that sham of a referendum is legitimate-
A pathetic and transparently fallacious appeal to popularity, and a flagrantly false one at that. Even if I was the only one who thought the referendum accurately reflected the will of the populace, that wouldn't make me wrong. But I'm not the only one, because given the evidence that'd be insane. I already quoted an article that lays out the results two western polls of the Crimean populace undertaken post referendum - one by Gallup, and one by GfK - you know, what you dismissed as 'alleged' polls because you can't even fathom that they could exist.

Here's another article about it, from known Putin Puppets And Lovers of Dictators *squints at screen* opendemocracy. Hmmm.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/crimean-conundrum/
Nevertheless, on the ground in Crimea, prevailing opinion at the inter-state and state level does not matter. ‘Reunification’ with Russia enjoys considerable legitimacy within Crimea among most of the peninsula’s population.
Regardless of your refusal to accept objective reality and instead retreat into comforting tales about what everyone else supposedly believes, those polls reflect the results of the referendum. Therefore, the referendum is in fact an accurate reflection of the will of the majority of the Crimean population.

Like this is just the most deflated attempt to avoid admitting defeat imaginable - "uhhhh nobody but you believes this referendum wasn't a sham!" What a flaccid attempt at a rebuttal.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

Post by Solauren »

You know, I don't get why people are arguing historics or anything like that with this.

The timeline is simple

#1 - Russia (while part of the Soviet Union) gives Crimea to Ukraine
#2 - Russia (under Putin) invades Crimea.
#3 - Referendum is held in under military occupied Crimea, showing they want to join Russia.

The reliability of that referendum will always be questioned, due to the occupation.
Quite frankly, it's probably as truthful and reliable as someone saying they are consenting to be fucked by a pig, while someone else is pointing a gun at them. It's either 'get raped by a pig, or get shot'.

#4 - Russia attempts to invade the rest of the Ukraine.
#5 - We are now 'here'.

If Russia hadn't invaded the Ukraine (one would argue invaded Crimea as well), then none of this would be happening.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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Solauren wrote: 2024-01-30 12:18am You know, I don't get why people are arguing historics or anything like that with this.

The timeline is simple

#1 - Russia (while part of the Soviet Union) gives Crimea to Ukraine
Small point: the Soviet Union gave Crimea to Ukraine, not the Russian SSR.

Like there's no question the annexation of Crimea was illegal. The only question is what do you want to do about it, and the idea that its worth spilling a drop of blood over trying to reverse something that the population of Crimea is clearly fine with was, and is, irrational, and everyone acted accordingly.

It's why the issue of Crimea was never really that significant from 2014-2022 except among Ukrainians howling at the moon about something they'd never get back. The issue was only reactivated because of Russia's invasion of the rest of Ukraine, but even now no one (except Zelensky and other hardliners) really believes that any settlement of this war is going to result in Crimea's return to Ukraine*. It was gone in 2014 and its gone now.

*Which is why the plan for the counteroffensive was based on 'threatening' Crimea in the belief Putin would sue for peace
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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Vympel wrote: 2024-01-29 06:30pm
wautd wrote: 2024-01-29 03:11am Maybe you should listen to Russian state media and officials more, because they regularly claim their goal is to destroy/dissolve Ukraine. Any peace deal with Putin's regime would be a cease fire at best
Leaving aside that appealing to comments made 2 years into a war have very little to do with what caused the war and what Russian demands were at the outset, sounds like it'd be a good idea to try and negotiate an acceptable peace to see if you're right!

Putin has been saying that Ukraine isn't a real country as early as 2008
EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-01-28 10:46pm Pushing the whole Nazi bullshit doesn't work when Zelenskyy is a Jew.
Its also well known that ever since the US elected Obama, the US ceased being racist, lmao.

Ever since the Maidan, where the far right was instrumental in its success, Ukraine's governmental structures and security forces have been totally lousy with far right figures and neo-Nazis in key positions, who have promoted Holocaust revisionism and denial (given how gleefully their heroes participated in it) and the open glorification of notorious Ukrainian Nazi collaborators from WW2. None of this is at all controversial to anyone willing to do literally two seconds of research. While its an overstatement to say Ukraine has a 'Nazi' government, their government, security forces and civil society is infected with them.
So you're just going to ignore that when Zelensky got elected, Ukraine's far right political parties barely got 2 % of the votes combined?
You'll find nazis in every country (although I can see Putin's regime going as far as accusing Ukrainian communists being nazi for the crime of being pro Ukraine). Modern day Russia has a far larger Nazi problem than Ukraine
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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Vympel wrote: 2024-01-29 07:17pm Please keep your stories straight. First you argued (absurdly, with no evidence) that the referendum occurred "at gunpoint", i.e. that the referendum's results were a result of duress, now you're arguing that both choices in the referendum would result in independence.
Russia can't even organize honest democratic elections or referenda inside its own borders, let alone in its colonies. The fact remains that the referendum occurred under military occupation by Russia's little green men, making the results of the referendum worth as much as the paper they're written on
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

Post by Ralin »

Vympel wrote: 2024-01-30 12:34am
Like there's no question the annexation of Crimea was illegal. The only question is what do you want to do about it, and the idea that its worth spilling a drop of blood over trying to reverse something that the population of Crimea is clearly fine with was, and is, irrational, and everyone acted accordingly.
It's not at all clear. Because they were invaded. And the referendum you cite was held after the invasion. "Most of them speak Russian and pollsters found afterwards it was legit" isn't near enough to erase that
Why is it a great reason? Why does NATO owe Ukraine anything, exactly? (This is not a rhetorical question)
Because members of many NATO nations are opposed to the idea that countries should be able to invade and seize land and population from other countries and get away with it. You seem very determined to play hard man realpolitik or whatever, but that's a norm many people including their leaders support and that should be supported whenever possible.
Well that's just delusional and absolutely never, ever going to happen, so what else do you have?
Why, because the US and its allies need to be afraid of the Russian military? Please, tell us why Ukraine shouldn't receive all the aid it needs to defend themselves against Russian invasion?
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

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wautd wrote: 2024-01-30 02:58am Putin has been saying that Ukraine isn't a real country as early as 2008
Who gives a shit. None of those statements were reflected in Russian foreign policy towards Ukraine at any stage until well after the Maidan - an event that Russian neither wanted nor caused.

There's - depressingly again - no answer here to the idea that negotiations should be tried to see if you'll be vindicated. Because what this is about is manufacturing excuses not to try, right?
So you're just going to ignore that when Zelensky got elected, Ukraine's far right political parties barely got 2 % of the votes combined?
Yes I am, because that's a dumbshit liberal electoral argument that ignores the realities of fascist power and influence and where they reside - the security services, the military, and the streets. Its deeply unserious and can be dismissed out of hand.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/u ... cna1290946
You'll find nazis in every country (although I can see Putin's regime going as far as accusing Ukrainian communists being nazi for the crime of being pro Ukraine). Modern day Russia has a far larger Nazi problem than Ukraine
This is just openly mendacious, deeply dishonest horseshit. Russia doesn't engage in official widespread glorification of well known Nazi collaborators and engage in widespread Holocaust revisionism and denial. It doesn't have countless soldiers walking around with black suns on their uniforms (so many that photographers can't help but photograph them by accident and get repeatedly called out on it), or the iconography of a Waffen SS division.
Ralin wrote: 2024-01-30 03:43am It's not at all clear. Because they were invaded. And the referendum you cite was held after the invasion. "Most of them speak Russian and pollsters found afterwards it was legit" isn't near enough to erase that
Yes it is. Multiple polls all saying so is the best evidence there is, actually, and you give no actual reasoning why its not good enough. You just baldly assert so. So I'm sorry you don't like it, but I'm tired of batting away these flacid objections that simply have no substance except to handwave about there being an almost entirely bloodless 'invasion' that was so easy, it was over before it began (these two things are - unsurprisngly - related!).
Because members of many NATO nations are opposed to the idea that countries should be able to invade and seize land and population from other countries and get away with it. You seem very determined to play hard man realpolitik or whatever, but that's a norm many people including their leaders support and that should be supported whenever possible.
LMAO, no they're not. They're absolutely fine with it, so long as it suits their geopolitical interests. I didn't see NATO rushing to impose sanctions on Azerbaijan or Israel for their naked land theft.

Come on, please present a real answer, not this walletinspector.com naive nonsense about NATO countries being opposed to seizures of land.
Why, because the US and its allies need to be afraid of the Russian military?
For all of our sakes yeah they do. Its easy for you to post this nonsense from the safety of your keyboard, but NATO troops fighting Russia directly carries the risk of escalation into nuclear exchange. How do you not realise this? Its only the whole reaon the war is being fought like this in the first place.
Please, tell us why Ukraine shouldn't receive all the aid it needs to defend themselves against Russian invasion?
Are you posting from a parallel universe where this is a thing that's going to happen? Because it isn't, and its not. The thing you're asking for is not something anyone is interested in doing. Have you read any articles about this issue lately? Even if Biden's ask for Ukraine is eventually approved (as it likely will be) that is less money than they received last year. Do you understand that? You're wishcasting into the ether. I'm talking about reality.
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