The Pope resigns

[Flagg]

First Jesuit, and he used to be a chemistry teacher.

[Straha]

EDIT: He's picked the name Franciscus.

Franciscum, actually.

99% certain that the regnal name is Franciscus, and that that is just the accusative form of his name used at some point addressing him. It'd make no sense for him to take a neuter name unless he was trying to do some radical rethinking on the Church's stance on gender and sexuality. [/latin's use in my life for today]

[SystemError]

Thought of the day: Bergoglio was a Jesuit before he became Pope Francis I. Historically there has been major opposition to the election of ordered priests to the Papacy because of institutional rivalries, the most famous of which is the Jesuit-Franciscan rivalry. Is 'Franciscus'/'Fransciscum'/'Francis' as much a bone thrown to the Franciscan order on the election of a Jesuit to the Holy See as it is an homage to the historical personage?

[Broomstick]

Are there certain guidelines for these naming conventions?

Not sure, but I do know that in the early days they used their birth names until some guy thought his Roman god-inspired name Mercurius wasn't appropriate.

Although apparently Pope Dionysus did not feel the same way (he was earlier than Mercurius)

[OneEyedTeddyMcGrew]

Well, the Catholic Church has done something I would have never expected them to do, and that has been to leave me pleasantly surprised.

He's certainly theologically conservative, and has the usual problems with gays and whatnot. But by Catholic standards he's pretty moderate in most other respects, and his attitudes seem to have tended in a direction towards curial reform and social justice, which are areas which the Catholic Church seriously needs to work on and can do a lot of good in. The man himself certainly seems to be the perfect candidate to usher in a more humble, down-to-Earth approach to the Papacy as well.

The archbishop of Buenos Aires is a Jesuit intellectual who travels by bus and has a practical approach to poverty: when he was appointed a cardinal, Bergoglio persuaded hundreds of Argentinians not to fly to Rome to celebrate with him but instead to give the money they would have spent on plane tickets to the poor.

I also loved his speech as well, encouraging the people in the square to pray for him before he gave the Papal blessing. So, all things considered, I'm giving this the thumbs up. Welcome Pope Francis, you have a long road ahead of you.

[Dalton]

EDIT: He's picked the name Franciscus.

Franciscum, actually.

99% certain that the regnal name is Franciscus, and that that is just the accusative form of his name used at some point addressing him. It'd make no sense for him to take a neuter name unless he was trying to do some radical rethinking on the Church's stance on gender and sexuality. [/latin's use in my life for today]

You're right; I was going by what was on vatican.va.

[OneEyedTeddyMcGrew]

Are there certain guidelines for these naming conventions?

Officially, no. There's nothing stopping him calling himself Pope Awesome if he wants. There are certainly conventions though, with Papal names holding certain significance and giving an indication of where the Pontiff would like to go in his Papacy (Benedict and Pius for example would lean towards the conservative end of things, while John would indicate a more progressive approach). Having a completely new name is a big departure (John Paul doesn't really count, since it was a combination of two already common Papal names). Especially since he chose Francis, which could either have connotations with St Francis of Assisi or Francis Xavier. Both, as I said before, would emphasis a more humble Papacy with an emphasis on social justice and evangelical renewal.

[Irbis]

Is 'Franciscus'/'Fransciscum'/'Francis' as much a bone thrown to the Franciscan order on the election of a Jesuit to the Holy See as it is an homage to the historical personage?

I thought so too, but I already seen speculation he meant Francis Xavier, founder of Jesuits, not Francis of Assisi. Which would be significantly worse.

In a strictly technical sense, he was born in Africa, while both Peter and Evaristus (first and fifth) were born in Israel. Of course, Israel was also Romanized so maybe that's the difference. *shrug*

I mean more that province of Africa (modern Tunis) was populated largely by Roman settlers and completely Romanized people due to Punic Wars by the time he was chosen. Judea was still largely native both in population and culture, Africa was in comparison completely Roman.

For over a thousand years Marcellus and Julius weren't repeated. They eventually were. For centuries no Pope came from anywhere but Italy, now we've had three on the trot. For centuries no Pope resigned, now one has. I agree that there would be uproar if some egotistical little git decided to call himself Peter, but that's different from the use of the name being officially banned.

The problem with that is no one was ever named Peter, the examples above were being broken from the start. Yes, some upstart might try to name himself that, but Cardinals would then likely smack some sense into him, plus, isn't there some kind of prophecy about next Peter being bad pontificate meaning even for symbolic reasons picking it would be hard?

He still held the post though.

Seeing office of Pope was created after his death...

[ChaserGrey]

Are there certain guidelines for these naming conventions?

Officially, no. There's nothing stopping him calling himself Pope Awesome if he wants. There are certainly conventions though, with Papal names holding certain significance and giving an indication of where the Pontiff would like to go in his Papacy (Benedict and Pius for example would lean towards the conservative end of things, while John would indicate a more progressive approach). Having a completely new name is a big departure (John Paul doesn't really count, since it was a combination of two already common Papal names). Especially since he chose Francis, which could either have connotations with St Francis of Assisi or Francis Xavier. Both, as I said before, would emphasis a more humble Papacy with an emphasis on social justice and evangelical renewal.

That's the actual reason a Pope Innocent would have been bad, since it would probably have been meant to evoke Innocent III and his wacky crusade-launching ways.

Cautious optimism here. Electing a curial outsider means there's at least the possibility of reform within the church- if they'd picked another Vatican bureaucrat I'd have said it was curtains for the Church- and picking a name that hasn't been used before is a distinct message. He does not intend to be "the new boss, same as the old boss".

We'll see if he follows through.

[OneEyedTeddyMcGrew]

I did a little bit more digging on the issue of new Papal names. Francis is the first Pope to have a new, unused and non-composed name since 913. The name of the last guy to do it?

Pope Lando.

[Dalton]

The problem with that is no one was ever named Peter, the examples above were being broken from the start. Yes, some upstart might try to name himself that, but Cardinals would then likely smack some sense into him, plus, isn't there some kind of prophecy about next Peter being bad pontificate meaning even for symbolic reasons picking it would be hard?

Yes, the prophecy is that Benedict XVI was the "penultimate" Pope and that the next one, Peter the Roman, would bring about destruction to the Church. Of course, since the new Pope is an Argentinian and calls himself Francis, they quickly retconned a way where there was a gap between Benedict XVI and Peter the Roman.

Oh, and it has been confirmed, by Timothy Dolan I believe, that Francis named himself not after Xavier but of St. Francis of Assisi.

EDIT: Link to a source. Lots of people making a connection between the seagull on the chimney and the legend of St. Francis.

[CarsonPalmer]

Thought of the day: Bergoglio was a Jesuit before he became Pope Francis I. Historically there has been major opposition to the election of ordered priests to the Papacy because of institutional rivalries, the most famous of which is the Jesuit-Franciscan rivalry. Is 'Franciscus'/'Fransciscum'/'Francis' as much a bone thrown to the Franciscan order on the election of a Jesuit to the Holy See as it is an homage to the historical personage?

It could be, although I think the Jesuit/Franciscan rivalry has cooled off a bit. It is also possibly a nod to St. Francis Xavier, who is one of the most prominent Jesuit saints (all those schools named Xavier are Jesuit and named for him), second only to Ignatius Loyola.

But I'm also optimistic on this Pope. Although he is theologically conservative (and in all reality, who was elected that wouldn't be?), I think there's some reason to hope that he'll aim his energy towards poverty and reform instead of the abortion/gay marriage side of things.

Edit: He is named for Francis of Assisi after all, so that part is no longer relevant

[Dalton]

Huh. Gregory III was Syrian. Any other non-Europeans I missed?

EDIT: Five others it seems...but this is the first in the modern era.

[weemadando]

So, to what extent did this guy collaborate with the Argentine Junta?

I've heard everything from "total collaborator" to merely "didn't publicly oppose".

[fgalkin]

I suspect we will find out very soon once people begin digging for real.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[weemadando]

One report I've already heard alleges that he was the Junta's man, to the point where he turned over other priests to the death squads (the priest's apparently survived, but have never spoken about what really happened). Can't wait to find out if that's the truth. I mean, electing someone who was a Nazi by default was comedy, this would just be sad.

So yeah, collaborate with a junta = pope worthy. Apparently also, actively working against a democratically elected government because they're supporting gay marriage = pope worthy.

[Todeswind]

Orlando Yorio and Franz Jalics were excommunicated from their order by in a letter they were given mid freaking abduction. He excommunicated them while they were being tortured. [1] The man was unquestionably in bed with the dictatorship, even in his own account of the story he was on the dictatorship's good side and was on good terms with Jorge Rafael Videla to (a) mail letters to them and (b) discuss the terms of their imprisonment with the freaking dictator himself. [2]

The Dirty War is a freaking mess. Virtually nobody involved in it was brought to justice for the missing, tortured, and murdered people.



http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/elpai ... 05-02.html [1]
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1323041-berg ... aparecidos [2]

[OneEyedTeddyMcGrew]

And the case for the defence...

At least two cases directly involved Bergoglio. One examined the torture of two of his Jesuit priests — Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics — who were kidnapped in 1976 from the slums where they advocated liberation theology. Yorio accused Bergoglio of effectively handing them over to the death squads by declining to tell the regime that he endorsed their work. Jalics refused to discuss it after moving into seclusion in a German monastery.

Both men were freed after Bergoglio took extraordinary, behind-the-scenes action to save them — including persuading dictator Jorge Videla's family priest to call in sick so that he could say Mass in the junta leader's home, where he privately appealed for mercy. His intervention likely saved their lives, but Bergoglio never shared the details until Rubin interviewed him for the 2010 biography.

Bergoglio — who ran Argentina's Jesuit order during the dictatorship — told Rubin that he regularly hid people on church property during the dictatorship, and once gave his identity papers to a man with similar features, enabling him to escape across the border. But all this was done in secret, at a time when church leaders publicly endorsed the junta and called on Catholics to restore their "love for country" despite the terror in the streets.

That said, I'm willing to wait to see if more evidence comes out either way before coming to a decision. I never found the Benedict XVI = Nazi line convincing either since membership of the Hitler Youth was compulsory and (as far as I know) he gave and has given absolutely no signs that he had any sympathy with the Nazis at all. Don't get me wrong, I had a LOT of problems with the last Pope, but this wasn't one of them.

[Irbis]

Yes, the prophecy is that Benedict XVI was the "penultimate" Pope and that the next one, Peter the Roman, would bring about destruction to the Church. Of course, since the new Pope is an Argentinian and calls himself Francis, they quickly retconned a way where there was a gap between Benedict XVI and Peter the Roman.

Well, his parents were Italians, so you can easily say he is 'Roman' Pope

Also, upon checking, technically there were 3-4 Popes born outside of Europe proper, though last one was about 1200 years ago and all of them were born in highly Romanized provinces that could be seen as just extension of Europe; this one is first to be born and spend his entire life outside of 'Eurosphere'.

[Admiral Valdemar]

UK users will appreciate this.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Pope Saint Evaristus - Israel
Pope Saint Anicetus - Syria
Pope Saint Victor I - Libya
Pope Miltiades - Somewhere in North Africa
Pope Theodore I - Israel
Pope John V - Antioch (then part of Syria, now part of Turkey)
Pope Sisinnius - Syria
Pope Constantine - Syria
Pope Gregory III - Syria

By my count, that puts Pope Francis I as the 10th pope born outside of Europe proper (excluding Saint Peter).

Of course, you can point out that all of those popes were from pretty European areas, and of European origin, but so is Francis. Born of Italian immigrants in the most European city in South America.