The Coddling of the American Mind

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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by LaCroix »

Purple wrote:
Ralin wrote:Indeed. I don't know why this is something so many people have trouble getting. If you give a damned warning to be ready for the week the class discusses Uncle Adolf's Book of Rape and Racism then it's pretty obvious the class is going to fucking cover that.
The issue is in what accompanies the warning. And there are only two possible options that can.
1. You have been warned but must attend anyway. Live with it.
2. You have been warned and can skip over it if you feel you can't take it.

#1 Makes the warning it self pointless. Why warn someone that a train is coming when he is tied to the tracks and can't escape? It's a waste of time.
#2 Brings up all the problems others and my self have already pointed out.
Wrong comparison.

#1 is warning people that a wave is about to hit the ship so they can brace for it. Not telling them is to let them get washed away without warning.

I, for example, have pretty bad fear of heights. If I was to step through a door and find myself on a metal grating walkway 50m up (happened once in school visiting a metal foundry), I'll collapse into a shivering ball of meat. If you give me a few moments to prepare myself for it, I am able to walk across a rope bridge (probably clearing the last half at a mad dash, but I can do it).

Same for a person with issues with a topic. Giving a student a simple warning, even if it's just a 'in about half an hour, we will be talking about *this*', can be a tremendous help in dealing with things.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Ralin »

Purple wrote: And as I've said before it depends on the field. Reading it alone in private works well if it is say history. But if it's a field philosophy where discussion is key to understanding or medicine where practical experience is everything than it does not work so well. And we are back to going around in circles.
We're going in circles because as usual you've hunkered down on subjects you don't know a damned thing about and either failed or refused to understand very clear explanations of why the problem you're talking about doesn't exist. Again.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Terralthra »

Purple wrote:And as I've said before it depends on the field. Reading it alone in private works well if it is say history. But if it's a field philosophy where discussion is key to understanding or medicine where practical experience is everything than it does not work so well. And we are back to going around in circles.
Yeah, except I, and at least three other people in this thread, do this for a living. We are uniformly saying it works out. You, on the other hand, are not a professor nor a teacher, to the best of my knowledge, so perhaps you should acknowledge our expertise instead of pretending your forum cred matches in any way to professional experience in the field of education.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Thanas »

What works best IMO is if you put your outline for the semester with the presentation topics online and distribute it in written copies in the first class, which is almost always wasted on introduction and legalities anyway over here. Given how students are allowed to miss up to 2 sessions they can readily decide to skip any one or just write an email.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Ralin »

Thanas wrote:Given how students are allowed to miss up to 2 sessions they can readily decide to skip any one or just write an email.
And that's pretty high end in terms of expected class attendance, at least by American standards.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Elheru Aran »

Ralin wrote:
Thanas wrote:Given how students are allowed to miss up to 2 sessions they can readily decide to skip any one or just write an email.
And that's pretty high end in terms of expected class attendance, at least by American standards.
When I was in school the general rule of thumb was you got 3 free skip days, after that the instructor could start docking points from your final average.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by aerius »

Thanas wrote:What works best IMO is if you put your outline for the semester with the presentation topics online and distribute it in written copies in the first class, which is almost always wasted on introduction and legalities anyway over here. Given how students are allowed to miss up to 2 sessions they can readily decide to skip any one or just write an email.
Every single course I've ever taken in university does this. The first thing the professor does after introducing himself is hand out a course outline detailing which topics will be covered and when. It was the same thing when one of my former employers sent me back to college for certification, every course there also had a detailed outline handed out in the very first class.

Going back to the very first post, there's an example of microaggressions and Asians. If that's the standard which is being used, pretty much everything can be taken as a microagression and get banned. If I'm in a machine shop I can't say "you need to drill the hole first then ream it" since it could be taken as a demeaning sex joke directed at women, gays, prison rape, or whatever else you can think of. In reality it's just a description of an everyday machining operation. I also can't say "2 thou off, so much for German precision" when talking about a Siemens machine since that would be stereotyping Germans. Or this one happened in real life, someone at my work had a complaint filed against them for saying "you need to plug the USB dongle into the slot first", someone thought it was a sex joke and got all offended when the instructor was just teaching everyone how to use our new login system. So much shit would need to banned that society wouldn't function.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Ralin »

aerius wrote:Going back to the very first post, there's an example of microaggressions and Asians. If that's the standard which is being used, pretty much everything can be taken as a microagression and get banned. If I'm in a machine shop I can't say "you need to drill the hole first then ream it" since it could be taken as a demeaning sex joke directed at women, gays, prison rape, or whatever else you can think of.
There is such a thing as a judgment call. It's not a perfect system by any means, yes, but I'm okay if we err heavily on the side of caution in terms of NOT labeling things micro aggressions as long as there's some way to consider the possibility that maybe the concept has enough merit to warrant consideration. Constantly being complimented on speaking English so well has to be annoying for Asian-American and it's not hard to see how that could add up into more than the sum of its parts. It's like when people in Hawai'i constantly made cracks about how I should help them chop down a tree with my gigantic Cajun penis.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Elfdart »

Civil War Man wrote:
Elfdart wrote:It's also a matter of what exactly they want the school to do about it. Is a professor of Renaissance art supposed to skip over The Rape of the Sabine Women because one of the students might have been raped? And how exactly is the professor supposed to know if a student is still traumatized by being raped? Shouldn't that be between the student and their counselor or doctor?
As many people have pointed out here, the professor doesn't have to skip over it. Just take a few seconds to say "Hey, we'll be covering this topic on this day, so if you have any issues with it, either come prepared or meet with me so we can arrange a way for you to learn the material in a controlled setting."

Ideally, in cases where it's a major enough part of the curriculum, there would also be a warning in the course descriptions for the most common triggers. That way someone who is trying to deal with some kind of past trauma could get enough information to avoid electives or majors that they would not be able to reasonably handle, instead of finding out after the fact and having to waste time and money dropping classes or switching majors.
It just strikes me as odd, since someone taking the course should already know that Renaissance art often depicted gruesome subject matter. It's like someone being surprised that a history course covering the Civil War would feature photos of mangled corpses at Antietam.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Ralin »

Elfdart wrote: It just strikes me as odd, since someone taking the course should already know that Renaissance art often depicted gruesome subject matter. It's like someone being surprised that a history course covering the Civil War would feature photos of mangled corpses at Antietam.
Yes they should, but speaking as someone who spent enough time in college to have four degrees I say that this is not something you can safely assume.

And even if you could there's still usually plenty of ways the course can be set up to focus more or less on things that are likely to be 'triggering' to some people, so the warning is worth including.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Zixinus »

I think one of the fundamental problems with this thread's discussion, when it does occur, is that a lot of people are making a simple error.

The OP article discusses the appearance of two movements taking place in high-education environments: the introduction of trigger-warnings on lectures and the removal of microaggressions from facility premises.

The error is that the article conflates the two to be the same thing. It may be true that both measures may come a similar source, but in practice they are two separate things.

The introduction of trigger-warnings is something that lecturers would have to do about content that is highly disturbing, such as displaying or in-depth discussion of violence, rape, etc. The goal is to provide warning for people who are particularly sensitive about such subjects and would be triggered by it to have traumatic recollection.
A consequence of such measure would be these students may need to skip that lecture and need assistance in form of material for them to study.
Note that this measure at no point requires that the student may skip learning about the material altogether, or make changes to the curriculum for the sake of these students, or these students to be otherwise not held to the same standard as other students on the same course.

This is a minimal measure that I expressed support for. I would like to note that universities can provide measures (skipping class and giving material to make up for it) that are effectively the same for other reasons, such as if the person who are crippled and could not attend the lecture. It would not burden most lecturers at all.

The second, wholly separate thing, is the removal of microaggressions. I am not in favor of this because there is no universal guideline (to my knowledge, the article certainly does not mention one) that specifies to high detail what exactly constitutes a microaggression in everyday life.

Some people may have also got the idea that if the first is introduced, the second would be a necessary consequence. This is not true. The first is a measure that university staff are to undertake and right now, it is attempted to be done voluntary by them. The second seems to be student councils organizing such things.

Another thing, is that the article throws quotes around and after digging into some of the source material, it conflates arguments made by an organized student council to implement certain measures with student making complaints. There are always students complaining on any course in any university "Why do I have to learn, can't we skip learning that?" about any aspect of a subject. Women, even those who are not particularly sensitive to the subject, are not often eager to learn about rape and rape laws, for example. That does not mean that some people are seriously suggesting not to teach it, especially if it was noted in the curriculum.
But they are asking for it to happen not just in settings where it would be reasonable and appropriate but above and beyond that. They seek to do so in places of education (where I and others have plainly explained why this would be a bad idea)
Except that there are three university educators on this very thread (plus Simon who is a teacher IRRC) who dispute this and tell that trigger-warnigns places close to zero burden on them.

In fact, giving trigger-warnings is to the university's benefit: it places responsibility solely on the student. The lecturer has given his warnings, all obligations are on the student. If they can't handle it, they have been warned. If they need to take it in on their own, they can ask for material from the lecturer (something they already are supposed to do for any student). If the student decides they don't want to learn it, the university is under no obligation to pass the student any more than any other student who failed to learn the material for any other reason.
as well as in constant day to day human behavior (which is plain ludicrous).
If you are talking about trigger warnings, you are talking bullshit. Trigger warnings are specifically tied to university lectures. They are also tied to certain subject (rape, corpses, violence, etc.), not just to anything.

If you are talking about removing microaggerssions, I do not support that in general for the reason I mentioned in the beginning of my post.
They fail to understand that at the end of the day ultimately suffering and horrible suffering are things that happen to people on a daily basis.
This is an idiotic statement, especially regarding the people whom trigger-warnings are meant for.

Do you know who understands the true depth of this? People who have been raped. People who have seen their relatives die in horrible diseases before their eyes (Alyrium students). You do not get counseling and psychological treatment just for being queasy or being sensitive.

Because, get this, these people already know they can't censor reality because reality exists to regardless of consent. The real world exists for them and they have to interact with it anyway. In fact, they may experience painful reminders every day because they cannot control the world. Especially if everyday things can be those reminders.

But a lecture hall is not a regular place, especially if its a public facility. Lectures are held to certain standards and in the last half-century, those standards does in fact include restrictions on presentation that extend to things like words used. This is most evident in the case of racist slurs and terms but also other language. Academics are known to have their own terminology.

That is why trigger-warnings are reasonable. Adding a small change to those standards to accommodate a relevant minority in a way that actually streamlines the education is not that amazing or difficult to ask. Remember, warning of potentially disturbing content is something that most media already does: age ratings on TV, on DVD boxes, online, etc.

It just strikes me as odd, since someone taking the course should already know that Renaissance art often depicted gruesome subject matter. It's like someone being surprised that a history course covering the Civil War would feature photos of mangled corpses at Antietam.
Nobody is saying that people don't make mistakes. And if they do, nobody (at least, I don't think so) is saying that the student isn't responsible for their mistake. The goal with trigger-warnings and such is to make it the student's mistake, not the university's.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Purple »

Ralin wrote:
Elfdart wrote: It just strikes me as odd, since someone taking the course should already know that Renaissance art often depicted gruesome subject matter. It's like someone being surprised that a history course covering the Civil War would feature photos of mangled corpses at Antietam.
Yes they should, but speaking as someone who spent enough time in college to have four degrees I say that this is not something you can safely assume.
That depends on what you mean as safely. Safely for the student no. But safely for our own peace of mind absolutely yes. Because this is something they should know. And thus if they do not and end up suffering for it they have nobody but them self to blame.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Crown »

Terralthra wrote:
Purple wrote:And as I've said before it depends on the field. Reading it alone in private works well if it is say history. But if it's a field philosophy where discussion is key to understanding or medicine where practical experience is everything than it does not work so well. And we are back to going around in circles.
Yeah, except I, and at least three other people in this thread, do this for a living. We are uniformly saying it works out. You, on the other hand, are not a professor nor a teacher, to the best of my knowledge, so perhaps you should acknowledge our expertise instead of pretending your forum cred matches in any way to professional experience in the field of education.
Look, I'm not going to cast aspersions on you or any other people who work in teaching in this thread, I'm sure you're all competent, diligent and conscientious individuals. But appealing to your own authority in this matter is a logical fallacy because you share the same space as this fascist walking talking cretin who is also was a professor;



And before everyone loses their fucking shit at a YouTube video; this is the face of the subject matter of the OP.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Ralin »

Purple wrote: That depends on what you mean as safely. Safely for the student no. But safely for our own peace of mind absolutely yes. Because this is something they should know. And thus if they do not and end up suffering for it they have nobody but them self to blame.
...No, it isn't. Not for anyone even vaguely concerned about their students' well-being. Warning students that there be explicit rape and racism discussion ahead is so fucking minor that not bothering to do is fucking irresponsible.

This is one of those examples of how you're either a troll, severely out of touch with reality IRL or both. Listen to the goddamn people who know what they're talking about. Jesus fucking Christ I can stand stupid people and arrogant people but stupid arrogant people are just unforgivable.
Crown wrote: Look, I'm not going to cast aspersions on you or any other people who work in teaching in this thread, I'm sure you're all competent, diligent and conscientious individuals. But appealing to your own authority in this matter is a logical fallacy
Nah. There's a difference between appealing to authority as an argument and appealing to authority to backup the fact that you have more knowledge and practical experience with a subject. Terralthra, Alyrium et all have given breakdowns of why this makes sense to do. Arguments become irrelevant when the person they're aimed at either cannot or will not process them.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Look, I'm not going to cast aspersions on you or any other people who work in teaching in this thread, I'm sure you're all competent, diligent and conscientious individuals. But appealing to your own authority in this matter is a logical fallacy because you share the same space as this fascist walking talking cretin who is also was a professor;
When the lot of you are making claims about what is and is not harmful to the educational process and making predictions about what will and will not be the reaction of students, it is not a fallacy at all. We have actually done what we describe doing. It works.

The Mizzou case is a clusterfuck. Sometimes an institution fails its population in various and sundry ways. They let a metaphorical resentment reservoir fill (see Social Exchange Theory in social psych), and eventually something pretty minor will cause it to overflow and you get crazy shit from people. This happened in Ferguson, Baltimore etc and has contributed to the general resentment of black people in the US. Mizzou is just another instance and the failures dont even have to be that egregious if there is enough general resentment built up in a population.

If it keeps happening, you get feedback loops. People in the faculty and administration of a university circle wagons (often separate wagons because the administrators parachute in with their MBAs and management style unsuited to public education and ruin everyone's life. But I am not bitter or anything)

People actually do respond pretty well if you let them know you give a shit about them, and take reasonable steps to make their lives easier, even if you never water down intellectual standards.
The OP article discusses the appearance of two movements taking place in high-education environments: the introduction of trigger-warnings on lectures and the removal of microaggressions from facility premises.

The error is that the article conflates the two to be the same thing. It may be true that both measures may come a similar source, but in practice they are two separate things.
This. This right here.

I would even make the claim further that while they come from the same ideological milieu (intersectional feminism, which is something I fundamentally subscribe to), they come from MUCH different wings of that milieu. Someone who would like to see trigger warnings more often has seen a problem. Namely, that people with certain psychological issues are having avoidable issues with some subjects, and want to make reasonable accommodations for those individuals without watering down the course material. This is not only reasonable, but the argument could be made that not doing it where it is reasonable is a violation of the Americans With Disabilities Act (for those of us in the US) or is at least a violation of its spirit, if not the letter.

Even having Safe Spaces and trying to tamp down Microaggressions is not a bad idea.

A bit of context is necessary for this.

The original intent of Safe Spaces was to create exactly that. For LGBT students. Back in the late 90s and early 2000s, teachers would put a little sticker on their door with a rainbow on it and the words Safe Space. It was a place where an LGBT student knew they would not be subject to harassment, bullying, or violence, because the adult in the room would not permit it. Their doors were open during lunch, before school, and after school, depending on who could be around and when.

This is a good thing. And this is what Safe Spaces used to be. Easily extendable to race, religion etc. I let my own students know I wont tolerate bigoted bullshit (I dont use the word bullshit), and that I reserve the right to remove someone who is being a bigoted douchebag from my classroom for the day. I never even had to make good on that threat, but if it made my muslim students (The DFW area has a huge muslim population, and UTA has one of the largest muslim populations in the US as a proportion of enrollment) feel safe in Texas (they get treated like shit) for 2 hours, that is awesome. Never had a complaint.

Microaggressions are an extension of this. The basic concept is that there are little things that people say without even realizing they are doing it that hurt other people. Good example "This is so gay". On its own, its mildly annoying. Numerous times a day all day every day... it starts to make one feel loathed.

"Come on people, you are adults, you can think of a better way of expressing frustration that does not hit gay students in the crossfire"

Put like that, it tends to put a damper on it because people realize it is kinda douchebaggy and people dont usually want to be douchebags.

It would not work, and would be counter-productive, if I started calling them bigots for doing it. They would get defensive. And I cannot crack down much further than that legally anyway.

................

And that is where tumblrites and twitterphiles go off the rails.

In their minds, the concept of a Safe Space has been morphed into a place where they are to be free of all criticism or critique from outsiders, because that is what it is in the echo-chambers of Twitter and Tumblr. They have entered into an Ideological-Purity feedback loop that bears almost no resemblance to this little thing called "reality". Plus they are all young, want to save the world, and arrogantly think they have found The Perfect Thing for doing that.

You find it cropping up in some places (like in the OP WRT the word Violate). And when it occurs, it ought be smacked down. But it is not by any means actually common on the university landscape. The news does not report Business as Usual with respect to progressives on university campuses. We're everywhere (except the administration, but fuck admin)

But that does not mean one has to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Dont throw out perfectly good concepts because someone has taken it and used it as a platform to jump the shark.
The second, wholly separate thing, is the removal of microaggressions. I am not in favor of this because there is no universal guideline (to my knowledge, the article certainly does not mention one) that specifies to high detail what exactly constitutes a microaggression in everyday life.
There are a few things that are obvious. "That is so gay", and calling men "pussies" due to the misogynistic connotation. There is no universal rule though, and they are almost all so embedded in the english language that punishing people in some way other than a gentle reproof that gets them to think before they open their mouths is going to be counter-productive and silly.

The solution to microaggressions is just gentle persuasion. You dont need any more than that most of the time.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by biostem »

The original intent of Safe Spaces was to create exactly that. For LGBT students. Back in the late 90s and early 2000s, teachers would put a little sticker on their door with a rainbow on it and the words Safe Space. It was a place where an LGBT student knew they would not be subject to harassment, bullying, or violence, because the adult in the room would not permit it. Their doors were open during lunch, before school, and after school, depending on who could be around and when.

This is a good thing. And this is what Safe Spaces used to be. Easily extendable to race, religion etc. I let my own students know I wont tolerate bigoted bullshit (I dont use the word bullshit), and that I reserve the right to remove someone who is being a bigoted douchebag from my classroom for the day. I never even had to make good on that threat, but if it made my muslim students (The DFW area has a huge muslim population, and UTA has one of the largest muslim populations in the US as a proportion of enrollment) feel safe in Texas (they get treated like shit) for 2 hours, that is awesome. Never had a complaint.

Microaggressions are an extension of this. The basic concept is that there are little things that people say without even realizing they are doing it that hurt other people. Good example "This is so gay". On its own, its mildly annoying. Numerous times a day all day every day... it starts to make one feel loathed.
I want to touch on a few points:

1. While safe spaces *used to* refer to areas where people would be free from harassment, they are now often treated as areas where simple dissent/differences in ideologies are not permitted. I am fully in favor of protecting people's fundamental rights, but when it comes to things like religion, where those beliefs are in direct conflict with western freedoms, such people should not benefit from their beliefs being protected, (like calling for apostates to be killed, etc), while others are restricted in their ability to call them out on it.

2. As I mentioned earlier, offense it taken, not given. Terms like "queer" were used to describe something odd or unusual, well before it applied to homosexuality, (or wherever you stand on the spectrum). My right to use that, or other terms, should not be restricted simply because a person or group has adopted it and "claimed ownership" over it. This is doubly the case if some people will take offense or even resort to actions like doxing or contacting people's employers, while simultaneously making accusations of misogyny/sexism/racism/rape with no repercussions for wrongful accusations.

In short, the trend has been that unless you tow the SJW/feminist/intersectionalist line, then you support rape culture/are a misogynist/are a rape apologist, or any other number of vile things, which never require proof on the accuser's part, and can be very damaging to a person's life.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Jub »

I'm going to abandon my devil's advocate position, mainly because arguing from that point of view is tiring.

Instead, I'll say this, I support the idea that certain known triggers such as rape, extreme gore, and things should be handled in a sensitive fashion. This could be by noting it down as part of a course syllabus or even in the course description so people would be aware of it when signing up for the course. A warning before some lessons would also be a nice courtesy to extend before a class on those topics. If something gets missed and somebody gets aggravated, well, unfortunately, shit happens, that's part of life and the professor/teacher shouldn't be punished for it unless they pointedly go out of their way to offend students.

However, I don't think that the actual material taught should change. The teaching of animal behavior should include such things as rape, cannibalism, traumatic insemination, etc. in as much detail as is required to teach the material.

In history war should me made to sound like the most awful thing people can imagine. I'd probably even go so far as to show footage of people being gunned down in the middle east to get the point across. My war and society teacher back in high school didn't go this far, but he didn't shy away from the human side of warfare either and some of the footage and the interviews were hard to sit through and take detailed notes on. Still, I appreciate that he taught the way he did and I have a better understanding of warfare than I would have gotten by just looking at overviews of battles.

As for microaggression, I'm not in a position to have experienced it. I was outright bullied in middle school, but as a fairly average white dude, I don't face the kind of situation that minorities would face. I can say that I'd be wary of outright censorship, people shouldn't be punished for an honest mistake, or for using the term in context to describe something in a paper or whatever. At the same time, minorities shouldn't have to hear things like 'this is gay', 'they only got into this school because of diversity', or other ignorant shit like that on a daily basis. I don't have the answer to this last problem because one way lies censorship and the other can lead to suicide; neither of those things are what I would call good.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by biostem »

As for microaggression, I'm not in a position to have experienced it. I was outright bullied in middle school, but as a fairly average white dude, I don't face the kind of situation that minorities would face. I can say that I'd be wary of outright censorship, people shouldn't be punished for an honest mistake, or for using the term in context to describe something in a paper or whatever. At the same time, minorities shouldn't have to hear things like 'this is gay', 'they only got into this school because of diversity', or other ignorant shit like that on a daily basis. I don't have the answer to this last problem because one way lies censorship and the other can lead to suicide; neither of those things are what I would call good.
While I agree with what you're saying in general, let me ask you this: What if people are getting positions/being admitted in order to fill a quota, or where requirements are being lowered to accommodate one group, but not another? Is it still a micro-aggression to point that out?
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

1. While safe spaces *used to* refer to areas where people would be free from harassment, they are now often treated as areas where simple dissent/differences in ideologies are not permitted. I am fully in favor of protecting people's fundamental rights, but when it comes to things like religion, where those beliefs are in direct conflict with western freedoms, such people should not benefit from their beliefs being protected, (like calling for apostates to be killed, etc), while others are restricted in their ability to call them out on it.
When I say my classrooms are safe spaces from bigotry, I bloody well mean it. Which means that if someone is going to say something like "apostates should be killed" that is not a protected religious statement. Neither are those that directly contradict reality.

What it DOES mean is that I wont tolerate people being called ragheads in my classroom, making little snide remarks about the sex life of Mohammed, or ranting about a conspiracy of world jewry.

Intolerance... will not be tolerated.
2. As I mentioned earlier, offense it taken, not given. Terms like "queer" were used to describe something odd or unusual, well before it applied to homosexuality, (or wherever you stand on the spectrum).
No. Pretty sure it can be given. The intent matters. Someone coming in and talking about how platypuses are damnably queer creatures in a British accent using the old usage is not in itself objectionable. Someone coming in and calling someone else a filthy queer with disgust in their voice is trying to give offense. They are in the wrong and get booted from my fucking class. Someone coming and identifying as gender queer is just fine.

Same word. Different meanings. That is how language works. News at 11.

Protip: Try not to go off on an irrelevant tangent. Neither I nor the ideas I espouse are any more accountable to the nutbag fringe of tumblr than you are to the MRA subreddit.

If you have an objection to my actual position, and the common practices of those educators who have posted in this thread, make that objection. Dont reduce us to the rare absurdity that are the strawman feminists what tumblr has apparently permitted to manifest in real life periodically.
Is it still a micro-aggression to point that out?


Seeing as how that is not how affirmative action works in education, yes.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by biostem »

Seeing as how that is not how affirmative action works in education, yes.
So are you saying that scholarships and acceptance into various universities/colleges are not divvied out based upon race, religion, or sex, and only merit/academic performance are considered?
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

biostem wrote:
Seeing as how that is not how affirmative action works in education, yes.
So are you saying that scholarships and acceptance into various universities/colleges are not divvied out based upon race, religion, or sex, and only merit/academic performance are considered?
No, you moron. Here is how it works.

There are people, we will call them minorities. We know damn well from a shitload of research that A) the schools they tend to go to suck and so do their neighborhoods etc, which artificially decreases their performance even when they are perfectly capable; and we also know B) that if we do a randomized controlled trial wherein application materials are identical, but race differs, that the minority students are evaluated worse. In fact, it even happens in math where partial credit is given. It is kinda ridiculous.

What affirmative action programs do is apply a correction factor to deal with both of those problems.

Typically, there are two modes of admission. The top 10-20% of in-state high school students get automatic admission (that number depends on the state). Everyone applying in from out of state, and those who dont make the cutoff, go into The General Admissions Pool.

Everyone who gets in has to meet all requirements for admission (GPA, Test Scores, courses yadayada). After that, GPA, Test Scores, Application Essays etc are ranked on a point system. After that, a correction factor is applied that partially (it does not even do it fully) corrects for the combined effect sizes of A and B. The result is that a few otherwise qualified minority students get admitted over some other otherwise qualified white students who otherwise would have enjoyed a larger unfair advantage due to society-systemic racism, and individual bias that the admissions officer does not even know they are committing.

That does not happen with sex (Though particularly in STEM programs it probably should) and it does not occur with religion at all.

There are SOME scholarships that do, but those are mostly in the hands of foundations outside the university.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Jub »

biostem wrote:
As for microaggression, I'm not in a position to have experienced it. I was outright bullied in middle school, but as a fairly average white dude, I don't face the kind of situation that minorities would face. I can say that I'd be wary of outright censorship, people shouldn't be punished for an honest mistake, or for using the term in context to describe something in a paper or whatever. At the same time, minorities shouldn't have to hear things like 'this is gay', 'they only got into this school because of diversity', or other ignorant shit like that on a daily basis. I don't have the answer to this last problem because one way lies censorship and the other can lead to suicide; neither of those things are what I would call good.
While I agree with what you're saying in general, let me ask you this: What if people are getting positions/being admitted in order to fill a quota, or where requirements are being lowered to accommodate one group, but not another? Is it still a micro-aggression to point that out?
In the abstract, no, but due to the fact that it is a thing a minority might hear dozens of times daily, it might be wise to ask people not to say it anyway.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Simon_Jester »

It's an accusation that some people in the majority routinely throw at people in the minority, even without evidence, for a lot of ugly little psychological reasons.

For example, it spares you a need to feel responsible for your academics if you blame 'affirmative action' for why you didn't get into college and someone else who worked their ass off but happens to be black and got an SAT score thirty points lower than you.

It spares a bunch of misogynistic creeps the need to seriously consider the ideas of the woman on their committee and view her as something other than furniture with breasts, if they can just say "oh, she's on the committee so there'd be a woman on the committee."

And so on.

As a result, a lot of spiteful assholes spend time denigrating minorities and claiming, sometimes to their faces, that every good thing they achieve is the result of affirmative action. Given that this is so, why would any decent person feel the need to bring it up in such a crude way too?

It's like the problem outlined here:

http://www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/ ... -a-coffee/

Sure, you personally may protest that you personally are being 'honest' by bringing up affirmative action... but you are one of many, many others are not particularly honest about it, and the cumulative result is that all the black students in your university, including the extremely talented ones, are going around dealing with people shitting on them about affirmative action.

Just because you don't see it as a touchy subject doesn't mean it isn't one.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

The above is also something I should have mentioned.

Biostem, people get called "affirmative action hires" and dismissed by white people and men as such, and not taken seriously. When someone gets rejected from their top-pick school, they will complain to their friends about being rejected because affirmative action admissions stole their spot (there is a case about this in Texas Right Now) within earshot of black people.

They [ethnic minorities, women etc] deal with that shit all the time (and women also have to deal with accusations of having been hired for their tits). Just like they deal with being followed by mall security when they walk into an upper-end store to get clothes or electronics, or being catcalled all the fucking time. You dont need to add to that. If you walk up to a black person and point out what you perceive as some horrible injustice perpetrated against white people (while I laugh at your ignorance), you are being an asshole.

There is one place where it is relevant in the context of universities to discuss affirmative action with a black student, and that is a class discussion where the matter is germane. Such as an applied ethics course where affirmative action is being discussed, a course on public policy with respect to race etc. At most any other time (so I can hedge against other circumstances I have not thought of), you are being an asshole. And for that matter depending on how you go about it, you might very well be being an asshole even within the proper context.
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Re: The Coddling of the American Mind

Post by Adam Reynolds »

One issue with things like affirmative action is that people who are rejected can blame things like affirmative action, even if they were never serious candidates to begin with.

Lets say you have 10 people who apply for a job. Eight of them are white men and two are black women. If one of the two black women gets the job, all eight white men are going to blame affirmative action, even if only three of them were actually competitive.
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