Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by mr friendly guy »

Alexander wrote:
The massive numbers of Muslim migrants that are coming to Europe, that are being accepted by leftist politicians. There are already far too many Muslims in Europe as it is, at this rate Europe will ultimately become a Muslim caliphate. Although, maybe that is what the globalists and leftists running the EU want.
I have heard about this, but no one has actually put numbers. Can you actually give us
a. Numbers of Muslims in Europe vs number of non Muslims
b. Define how much is "too many Muslims."
c. Show some maths to how they will become a majority using growth rates

Thanks.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by Crown »

mr friendly guy wrote:
Alexander wrote:
The massive numbers of Muslim migrants that are coming to Europe, that are being accepted by leftist politicians. There are already far too many Muslims in Europe as it is, at this rate Europe will ultimately become a Muslim caliphate. Although, maybe that is what the globalists and leftists running the EU want.
I have heard about this, but no one has actually put numbers. Can you actually give us
a. Numbers of Muslims in Europe vs number of non Muslims
b. Define how much is "too many Muslims."
c. Show some maths to how they will become a majority using growth rates

Thanks.
I'm not advocating Alexander's positions, but regarding point c, it should be noted that ridiculous non-sensical positions on population is not limited to (what I assume are) right wing thought; Closing EU borders will lead to incest, German finance minister warns. Just let that sink in a moment. :lol:
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by mr friendly guy »

This specific brand of stupidity is news to me, but then I am not surprised that stupidity is spread across both the Left and the Right.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

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LaCroix wrote:There are 2 solutions to this - roll the EU back and get rid of Euro and Schengen or go forward towards an actual federal government. But right now, we are at a point that is not sustainable. I prefer going on, because it is the solution that will yield better results in the long term, even if slightly more painful at the moment.
The EU isn't going to survive that path. The more you tighten your grip, the more countries will slip through your fingers.

And the euro was a dumb idea yes, we know that now looking back.

e:
The only tighter type of union I could envision would be one with the nordic countries only. We're close enough to each other and our social state is more extensive than the rest of europe. Our tax codes and modes of life and values could not function if forced to conform to the free market fundamentalism the EU is founded on.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by K. A. Pital »

I think the entire North-Western Europe that use some versions of dirigisme in economics and social-democratic political base to support it could very well function together. But not with the market fundies, in that you are right. With them the entire experiment turns into a bloody game of "who imports more slave labour from our poorer Southern and Eastern satellites slash posessions".
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by Iroscato »

Alexander wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
Alexander wrote: The economic crisis and the flood of Muslim migrants being brought in by leftist politicians speak for themselves.
The economic crisis started in america iirc. And what flood?
The massive numbers of Muslim migrants that are coming to Europe, that are being accepted by leftist politicians. There are already far too many Muslims in Europe as it is, at this rate Europe will ultimately become a Muslim caliphate. Although, maybe that is what the globalists and leftists running the EU want.
Muslims, Muslims, Muslims. That's all these fuckers bang on about these days. It makes me so tired.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

His Divine Shadow wrote:A lot of this is happening because the attempt at more integration and federalization... It's the cause of the problems, not the solution. And the more problems it will generate if the EU keeps ignoring it and steaming ahead.
It's a good thing that the UK will never join the Euro- the single European currency is all well and good for the EU mainland- as an island nation the UK is fundamentally different. To ignore this is stupid in the extreme.

The anti-Euro domestic sentiment is partly comprised of bitterness at EU laws overriding ours, and run by un-elected, appointed officials. The second part was torpedoed by Nicola Sturgeon at the last debate when she pointed out that this is exactly the same as the UK House of Lords, whose role in drafting UK laws is conveniently ignored.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by madd0ct0r »

Wha? Why does having a wet border impact our economy? Why does this not apply to ireland?
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

madd0ct0r wrote:Wha? Why does having a wet border impact our economy? Why does this not apply to ireland?
It's far easier to move around from country to country when you share land borders, and a common currency this is even more so. The UK by virtue of its location is a very different entity to the EU mainland- and the majority of the population are against adopting the Euro.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by mr friendly guy »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
madd0ct0r wrote:Wha? Why does having a wet border impact our economy? Why does this not apply to ireland?
It's far easier to move around from country to country when you share land borders, and a common currency this is even more so. The UK by virtue of its location is a very different entity to the EU mainland- and the majority of the population are against adopting the Euro.
I really do not understand why being an island by itself should matter. I mean Australia has Tasmania, the US has Hawaii and China has Hainan. From a logistics point of view, the fact that these islands do not share land borders with the mainland, does not cause problems for them using the same currency as the mainland. Can you explain this argument differently, because it seems like a non issue when there are other reasons not to join the Euro (eg not all countries are equal in terms of being financially prudent, so having a common currency leads to financial institution treating a country like Greece the same it would Germany with lending).
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by Dartzap »

Aren't your island examples part of one cultural hegemony, though?

As for the Lords comparison, surely it's the reverse? The commission sets outs the laws it wants passed, which the EP then scrutinies, whereas the Lords bats back legislation sent it's way if it's shit?

I must admit, I'm getting more befuddled by the day. None of my colleagues know how they intend to go, so I can't even succumb to peer pressure!
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by Hillary »

Dartzap wrote:Aren't your island examples part of one cultural hegemony, though?

As for the Lords comparison, surely it's the reverse? The commission sets outs the laws it wants passed, which the EP then scrutinies, whereas the Lords bats back legislation sent it's way if it's shit?

I must admit, I'm getting more befuddled by the day. None of my colleagues know how they intend to go, so I can't even succumb to peer pressure!
The Lords do initiate legislation as well.

I'm voting to stay in for the simple reason that I can't see a single advantage to leaving, whereas there are several significant disadvantages.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by Crown »

mr friendly guy wrote:This specific brand of stupidity is news to me, but then I am not surprised that stupidity is spread across both the Left and the Right.
Perhaps my initial post was poorly worded but I wouldn't consider Schäuble as someone on the Left of the spectrum. He's party is Center Right (in German politics which might just be considered as centrist in Australian terms I guess), but I'm quoting him more as an example of what "the establishment" is saying. And then they wonder how the "Far Right" is gaining popularity in Europe.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

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George Osbourne shoots own campaign in foot
The BBC wrote:
Tory backbenchers have reacted angrily to George Osborne's warning of cuts to public spending and tax increases in the wake of a vote to leave the EU.
A letter claiming the chancellor's position would be "untenable" if he tried to cut NHS, police and school spending has been signed by 65 MPs.

They said they would block any attempt at a so-called "punishment" Budget.

But Downing Street has backed Mr Osborne, saying the economic crisis that would ensue could not be ignored.

The UK votes on whether to remain in the EU or to leave on 23 June

In other referendum news:
  • Vote Leave set out a roadmap of what the government should do in the aftermath of a vote to leave the EU
  • Home Secretary Theresa May says the government "should look at further reform" of free movement of people, if the UK votes Remain
  • Nigel Farage and Sir Bob Geldof, leading rival Leave and Remain flotillas, trade verbal blows on the Thames
  • The CBI said business groups from countries including Norway, Switzerland and Canada had outlined the "serious shortcomings" in their alternative relationships with the EU
  • Rolls-Royce writes to its staff saying it backs a Remain vote
  • Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon warned that the UK voting to leave the European Union could present the risk of a "right-wing Tory takeover"
.


In the latest of a series of government warnings about the consequences of a vote to leave, Mr Osborne said emergency action would be required to deal with the "black hole" in public finances that some economists have warned would open up following Brexit.
In a joint appearance with his Labour predecessor, Lord Darling, Mr Osborne said this could include a two pence rise in the basic rate of income tax and a three pence rise in the higher rate,

The chancellor also said spending on the police, transport and local government could be cut by 5% and the ring-fenced NHS budget could be "slashed", along with education, defence and policing.

The two men said the measures - £15bn of tax rises and £15bn of cuts - were based on the Institute for Fiscal Studies' predictions about the economic impact of a vote to leave from lower trade, investment and tax receipts.

Mr Osborne said leaving the EU would be an "irreversible" step causing "financial instability" and leaving the UK "with no economic plan".

The UK, he suggested, would not be able to "afford the size of the public services that we have at the moment" outside the European Union and would have to "cut its cloth accordingly".

But Conservative Leave campaigners said it would be a clear breach of the party's 2015 manifesto commitment not to raise income tax rates, VAT or National Insurance for the duration of the Parliament, and to protect NHS and defence spending.

Former Cabinet ministers Iain Duncan Smith, Liam Fox, Owen Paterson and Cheryl Gillan are among Conservative MPs who signed a statement saying they "cannot possibly allow" cuts of that scale to go ahead, arguing they were unnecessary and a "scare tactic"

"It is absurd to say that if people vote to take back control from the EU that he would want to punish them in this way...If he were to proceed with these proposals, the chancellor's position would become untenable."

During prime minister's questions, a succession of Conservative MPs challenged the chancellor's plans, one describing them as "vindictive" and another accusing the Remain side of "hysterical scaremongering".

'Damascene conversion'

Andrew Bridgen, one of the signatories, said afterwards that the chancellor "needed to get a grip".

"He's basically used up all his political credibility with this final failed throw of the dice at project fear. There's no way that so-called Brexit Budget would ever get through the House of Commons."

Mr Osborne has played down the threat of Conservative MPs blocking an emergency Budget, suggesting that Labour and Conservative MPs would join forces to "take the necessary measures".

But Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, whose party is on the same side as Mr Osborne in the referendum debate, said he would not support an emergency budget and criticised Tory MPs who had undergone "a Damascene conversion to the anti-austerity movement".

"We would oppose any post-Brexit austerity Budget, just as we have opposed any austerity Budget put forward by this government," he told David Cameron at Prime Minister's Questions.

In response, Mr Cameron said "nobody wants to have an emergency Budget, nobody wants to have cuts in public services, nobody wants to have tax increases," but he said the economic "crisis" that would follow a vote to leave could not be ignored.

"We can avoid all of this by voting Remain next week," he told MPs.

Amid pressure on the Remain side to address public concerns about immigration, George Osborne has ruled out seeking any further concessions from the EU, saying his focus was on implementing restrictions on benefits negotiated by David Cameron earlier this year.
I disagree with the Leave campaign about leaving. But they've certainly got the Remain campaign's number in regards to scare tactics.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

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I suspect that many of the Remain people are themselves scared about the consequences. I'm not sure it counts as scare tactics to say "this is what we would need to do to balance the budget if we vote Leave, and you won't like it."
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Simon_Jester wrote:I suspect that many of the Remain people are themselves scared about the consequences. I'm not sure it counts as scare tactics to say "this is what we would need to do to balance the budget if we vote Leave, and you won't like it."
Considering the economy is still recovering from the last financial crisis, the last thing we need to do is risk another one. Essentially, the leave campaign doesn't have a fucking clue what effect bailing on the EU is going to have on the economy. They accuse the remain side of scaremongering, but like most politicians they have yet to actually refute any of what the remain group is saying.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by Crazedwraith »

Saying 'if we leave things will be worse off, the economy will shrink, we'll be worse off. I'll have to raise taxes' is a reasonable warning to me. And very likely true.

Whereas saying 'if you vote to leave I'll do an emergency budget and hike taxes straight away' is scare tactics and worse to me. Even we leave, it's going to take what a couple of years to implement? So things aren't going to change that fast to need said budget. It feels like a way to put the thumbscrews on voters rather than convince them.

That said, it's likely if we exit the pounds going to plummet pretty quickly. We see it already which just the possibility of it.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

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Simon_Jester wrote:I suspect that many of the Remain people are themselves scared about the consequences. I'm not sure it counts as scare tactics to say "this is what we would need to do to balance the budget if we vote Leave, and you won't like it."
Oh you sweet summer child; Project Fear has been banging on about the sky will fall for so long that it's refreshing to see someone look for a non-nefarious motive for Chancellor of the Exchequer's latest faux pas. :lol:
EnterpriseSovereign wrote:Considering the economy is still recovering from the last financial crisis, the last thing we need to do is risk another one. Essentially, the leave campaign doesn't have a fucking clue what effect bailing on the EU is going to have on the economy. They accuse the remain side of scaremongering, but like most politicians they have yet to actually refute any of what the remain group is saying.


That is truly interesting for me to read that; as an EU citizen living and working inside the UK I am obviously affected (most likely) negatively by a Brexit, but I swear to God I can't think of any single convincing argument Project Fear has presented to actually make me want to believe that Brexit would be a bad thing. It's mostly non sequitur nonsense and Putin! It's a truly shambles of a campaign.

EDIT :: Typo correction
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

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Well the leave campaign painted a lie on the side of their bus...

About the only outcome has been to sell more papers.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

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I have to wonder if Boris actually believes the crap he spouts, or whether he jumped on the leave bandwagon purely to further his own political ambitions. The moment he did that, I lost all respect for him. I'm sure there's a sizeable percentage of the population who are not willing to follow the Brexit lemmings off the proverbial cliff.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

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It seems like a lot of the atheist and philosophy channels I subscribe to are talking about a Brexit, since most of them are British citizens. But even the non British want to talk about it, because sovereignty wah wah. I must admit, because these channels are interested, it go me interested so I did watch Brexit the movie.

Most of them support a Brexit, but the stupidity is too funny not to share


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6fq0YUJ4xQ

Go to the section where it talks about how the "total value of trade deals". Basically the argument is the EU "total value of trade deals" is miniscule compared to even tiny Singapore. Unfortunately for this person, once you add up the "total value of trade deals" for the three small countries it says has a better deal than the EU, the total value is 130 trillion pounds or 184 US dollars. That sounds nice and all if you can't be bothered to spend one minute on a search engine. Because you might find the WORLD's total GDP is signficantly less. GDP includes exports - imports and other things like consumption and investment. Now I know GDP has exports - imports, but generally those imports would be consumed (say China imports Apple products to sell to local Chinese consumers) or used in things like government spending (eg a country imports iron ore from Australia for its steel industry), so it would be counted anyway in those other sections of GDP. So there is no way trade for 3 small countries is bigger than the entire GDP of the world.

I suspect they used the Brexit movie method of calculating "total value of trade deals," ie add the economies of all countries with free trade deals with that particular country, so a country with more free trade agreements would end up with having the highest number based on this methodology. However I would argue this methodology is not as accurate for discussing trade as simply counting the value of your exports + imports with a particular country. Otherwise if I traded with a country with a large economy (and had a FTA with them), even if what is trade is miniscule, under this Brexit methodology we would have a large "total value of trade deals." I suspect if they simply counted the actual trade (imports + exports) they would find that most of the EU's trade is with itself.

*************************
Oh and the other thing that's funny. A lot of these channels are anti SJWs, heck I am anti some of the more extremist SJWs, and one of the reasons I subscribe to them. But what's funny is that they mock the SJWs cries of oppression on the grounds that this particular individual cannot be oppressed because they are rich, live in the first world etc (even though one would think they aren't mutually exclusive, but apparently they are). What's really funny is that they either whine about being oppressed by.....the EU (not letting them trade, no democracy, affecting sovereignty etc + insert Nazi reference, no I am not kidding with that) or are strangely silent when another Brexit supporter whines about it, when the same conditions also applies to them. Oh the irony.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Crown wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:I suspect that many of the Remain people are themselves scared about the consequences. I'm not sure it counts as scare tactics to say "this is what we would need to do to balance the budget if we vote Leave, and you won't like it."
Oh you sweet summer child; Project Fear has been banging on about the sky will fall for so long that it's refreshing to see someone look for a non-nefarious motive for Chancellor of the Exchequer's latest faux pas. :lol:
Well no, seriously, do you think that Britain leaving one of the largest free trade zones in the world is going to result in growth of the British economy?

You can reasonably argue that the "this is what our budget will look like" argument is getting presented as a scare tactic. But based on very, very elementary facts about modern economies, it's not pointless alarmism. If Britain leaves the EU, Her Majesty's Government ends up with less money to pay the bills, due to a loss of EU funding for projects, a loss of international trade, and so forth. The reality is that to face that situation they will have to borrow, raise taxes, cut spending, or some combination of the three. Maybe not immediately, but they will. And postponing that inevitable consequence won't make the consequences more favorable.

I get that the current British government is trashy and lies a lot, but that doesn't mean they're automatically wrong to say that bad things will happen if Britain leaves the EU. Or that you can just utterly ignore the "bad things will happen" argument because it's a 'scare tactic.'
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by mr friendly guy »

The Leave camp seems to use the "scare tactic" of the EU superstate, loss of sovereignty etc. Both sides use scare tactics because on some level, they work.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by Dartzap »

A Labour MP has been shot, by a chap screaming "Britain First!!!" in Yorkshire. The campaigns have suspended for the day as a result.

beeb

What the fuck is going on? I thought the Battle of the Thames Morons was bad enough yesterday, now it's assassination attempts? This is well beyond the usual bollocks.
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Re: Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

Post by Crazedwraith »

Shot and stabbed. And in critical condition. Bloody hell.
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