So... basically what Yates did then, or am I missing something?TimothyC wrote:Do this and be ready to be canned faster than you can say "revolt" or resign.Simon_Jester wrote:TimothyC, what would you expect a government official who genuinely believed they were being ordered to violate their oath to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution" in a case like this?
Okay.
I will note that TimothyC appears to be about people who carry out foreign surveillance in the absence of an Attorney General to sign off on it. Not, apparently, about any other order.Ralin wrote:Ever since learning that the president could pardon people I've always wondered why, theoretically speaking, the president couldn't have their minions murder anyone who opposes him and then pardon them afterward.TimothyC wrote:Fire her, and preemptively pardon those conducting any of the surveillance until such time as Sessions is confirmed.[/url]
Guess maybe I'm going to find out!
I'm not sure if TimothyC means the type of surveillance that the US government has been doing on a routine basis for many years with the Attorney General's rubberstamp. Or if he means other surveillance of different categories of foreign persons. Or both. Or something completely different.
This is neither agreement with, nor disagreement with, his position. It is, to the best of my ability, a clarification.
That depends. It's entirely possible that continuing to ignore court orders on his behalf will result in some of his subordinates getting arrested for contempt of court. For a guy who can't do anything directly unless his minions are willing to do it for him, that's a pretty serious consequence. Because it means every Trump appointee is going to be looking over their shoulder nervously when they carry out his instructions.Ralin wrote:It's a pretty effective way to sort out the obedient from the disobedient. And to keep up a non-stop stream of outrages to make sure everyone constantly on edge and drain people's energy for the next batch.Raj Ahten wrote:Trump's incompetence here is stunning. What did he think would happen? Everyone would just go along with his power grab, even holdovers from the previous administration? He couldn't even wait until his own cronies were in place.
Trump hasn't exactly lost anything and he's set a precedent that he can do things like this without consequences. Assuming he's not impeached or something. Which he won't be.
Unless he figures he can just pardon them for the contempt of court, but that then leads to more constitutional crisis and we'll have to see how that goes.
Basically, the presidential pardon does have a fairly long history of being abused for political reasons. And it has, on at least one occasion, been used by a president to protect one of his own subordinates (Scooter Libby). If Trump starts spamming pardons or pre-emptive pardons ("What has been done, has been done for the good of the state...") Well, again, that triggers more constitutional crisis, but the outcome is not obvious.
I'm pretty sure the pardon has never been used before someone was convicted of a crime, and I'm not sure it can be or that anyone would honor it if it were.