'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake

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Post by Broomstick »

MKSheppard wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:*waits for Shep to acknowledge the official DoD documents which show pretty much the same thing as these disputed 60 minutes documents*
The only ones I'm aware of are the ones saying that Bush never took
a flight physical in the twilight years of his ANG career, which is no
surprise considering *GASP* that his plane was being decommed, and
there was an enormous glut of trained pilots for the other types.
I wasn't aware that showing up or not for a physical was even an option for any in the military, even in the ANG. You are ordered to do something, you do it, correct?

Granted, blowing off a physical is hardly worth a court-martial, but it doesn't not speak very well of him as a soldier, now does it?

Back in the Vietnam era, failure to fulfill your commitment as part of the guard could get you shipped to Viet Nam itself... unless, I suppose, your daddy had inordinate influence....
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Broomstick wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:*waits for Shep to acknowledge the official DoD documents which show pretty much the same thing as these disputed 60 minutes documents*
The only ones I'm aware of are the ones saying that Bush never took
a flight physical in the twilight years of his ANG career, which is no
surprise considering *GASP* that his plane was being decommed, and
there was an enormous glut of trained pilots for the other types.
I wasn't aware that showing up or not for a physical was even an option for any in the military, even in the ANG. You are ordered to do something, you do it, correct?

Granted, blowing off a physical is hardly worth a court-martial, but it doesn't not speak very well of him as a soldier, now does it?

Back in the Vietnam era, failure to fulfill your commitment as part of the guard could get you shipped to Viet Nam itself... unless, I suppose, your daddy had inordinate influence....
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Post by Glocksman »

This settles it for me: Signature block was sloppy cut & paste job
Second, The top of the signature is cut off. It is cut off in the exact place it would be cut off if the memo body were cut and pasted over the signature block using a computer program such as Word or Photoshop.
The CBS docs are clumsy forgeries. This stupid attempt at being clever is benefiting Bush by drawing attention away from the legit documents that raise questions about his actions at the time.

If I had a tinfoil hat, I'd put it on and wonder if Karl Rove did it. :twisted:
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Post by MKSheppard »

Really, I find it funny that the left is pulling the old "Nixon's Secretary" trick
in trying to "authenticate" these documents. It's possible that these documents
could have been made on a typewriter in 1972, but what are the chances
that an ANG office would have the latest and greatest typewriter?

Occam's Razor, people...
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Post by Joe »

I won't lie, I'm somewhat happy that this is going to take Rather down.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Joe wrote:I won't lie, I'm somewhat happy that this is going to take Rather down.
And the revelations from the legitimate DoD documents with it. More proof that if Karl Rove isn't a diabolical conspiratorial genius, then George W. Bush is just a Teflon president.
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Post by Elfdart »

Pretty good rebuttal to the nonsense posted above.

http://www.mahablog.com/2004.09.05_arch.html
Even I think I am spending way too much time on the Killian memo issue, but I'm visiting it again because, dammit, I'm an expert. And I don't think they are forgeries.

I studied typography as an academic discipline (circa 1971) as part of the old journalism school curriculum at U of Missouri. I spent roughly 30 years in the book publishing business, most of which was on the production side dealing with type compositors and printers. I have worked with typography and printing processes from the end of the raised-metal-type era to current digital technology. I have designed and written complete type specifications for more books than I can remember.

As a production editor in the 1980s I became especially good at measuring the type in books to be reprinted so that corrections could be made by patching the film. To do that, I had to measure the old type and match font, body size, ledding, and letter spacing exactly. This is not a skill people need much any more, since books are stored digitally. But I still know how to do it.

I'm bouncing around the web seeing wingnuts flying off about proportional letter spacing and kerning and whatnot, and I'm telling you these people are off the wall.

Why? Because, if you need to measure type (body size, ledding, letter spacing) and match it exactly, you have to work with original documents. If you are measuring a photocopy of an original document, the measurements can be off by half a point or more. If you are measuring a photocopy of a photocopy, the distortion grows to more than a point. If you are measuring a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy scanned into a PDF file, e.g. the Killian documents, forget it. The "kerning" and letter spacing you think you see may or may not exist on the original document. Probably not, in fact.

I know this because I learned it from my old film patching days. If all I had to work with was a photocopy, my patch wouldn't match. I had to measure the original printed page.

So, let's dispense with the "proportional type" theory. I've looked at the PDF files, and IMO the quality thereof is too far removed from the original (the wavy baselines are a dead giveaway) to know what the original type proportion was. And any "kerning" one might see is probably the result of distortion that occurs in photocopies that are generations removed from an original.

Now, let's shift focus onto the capabilities of common electric typewriters, circa 1972. As I've already explained, the IBM Selectric was very common. By 1972 the offices of America had replaced old manual uprights for electric typewriters, and the Selectric II, introduced in 1971, was the best.

By the time I graduated college in 1973 it would have been shocking to walk into a business office and not see Selectric IIs or similar. It would be as unusual as using a rotary phone today.

And Selectrics produced documents in a variety of type fonts, including Greek letters and all manner of esoteric scientific/mathematical symbols. You really could type open and close quotation parks and curly apostrophes. Superscript type was easily created by shifting. Even a reduced superscript "th" was technically possible, in spite of what the wingnuts are saying now.

It's true that some whizbangs took a couple of extra steps. People ask, Why would Killian have gone to the trouble of creating a reduced superscript "th"? But we're talking about the early 1970s here. Let's be frank -- in those dear departed times, real men did not touch typewriters. Trust me on this. It's highly probable Killian scribbled a note and gave it to one of the office "girls" to type up for his signature. The office "girls" hardly ever bothered about putting their initials on such documents, in spite of what the secretarial practice books said. But the "girl" would have typed the document very nicely.

Finally, I understand the wingnuts find it astonishing that the type seen in the Killian documents can be reproduced exactly in word processing documents today. But to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of typography, this is not astonishing at all. Times Roman characters produced on a lintotype machine in 1960 will match Times Roman characters created in Microsoft Word today. If two Times Roman characters were not exactly the same, one of them would not be classic Times Roman type, but something else.

Type faces have been consistent for many generations. We still use some type faces that pre-date machine-made type, in fact; e.g., Garamond, still in use after four centuries.

I've collected a few books published and printed in the 19th century. I promise you it is possible to recreate the pages of those books digitally. You could set pages in Quark that exactly match the fonts, spacing, margins, etc.; save as PDF files; and "age" the files in PhotoShop, and I doubt any expert in the world could tell the difference by looks alone. Probably an analysis of ink and paper would reveal the difference, but that's outside my expertise.

Today at Body and Soul, Jeanne d'Arc wrote about the way Right and Left deal with uncertainty -- "In general, people on the left face uncertainty the way I did in that post -- asking for answers, and weighing evidence (and often giving people with an ax to grind more credit than they deserve). On the right, 'evidence' is just whatever supports what you want to believe."

Yes. And I am not writing this today for the "righties" who will believe whatever nonsense they have to believe to keep their heads from exploding. I'm writing for the "lefties" I've seen all over the Web today who are hanging their heads and ready to admit to forged documents.

Stop it. Just stop it. Could the Killian documents be forgeries? Could Paul Wolfowitz be a space alien? Anything is possible.

But there is no evidence I've seen so far that has persuaded me the documents are forgeries. And I'm the best expert I know.
What this goes to show is that not only do right-wingers lie to others, but they save their juiciest bullshit to tell themselves.

Let's face it, folks: Comparing Kerry and Numbnuts objectively shows there's no contest. Kerry is superior in every way. Intellect, character, you name it -AND EVERY SINGLE BUSH SUPPORTER KNOWS IT! What's really painful for Bush supporters is that Kerry and Bush started with similar backgrounds, both went to Yale, and so on. So the starting point is about as close as you'll ever get in a campaign.

So, since they can't come up with any category where Dubya can measure up, they have to make shit up. Kerry fought bravely in Vietnam while Dubya was a male cheerleader? Find some Freikorps types to claim Kerry didn't fight in Vietnam and didn't bleed enough. Do all Pentagon documents and eyewitness statements back Kerry? Kerry wrote all the reports himself. :lol: Do Penatgon documents prove beyond any and all reasonable doubts that Bush is a liar, a coward and a deserter? They were forged. The only area where Bush exceeds Kerry is in lying and defamation.

Not only are Bush supporters piling one lie on top of another, they are making up more and more preposterous ones.
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Post by MKSheppard »

"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

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Post by Elfdart »

If these are fakes, it wouldn't be a first for the Republicans. Remember the phony photo showing Kerry and Jane Fonda on a stage together? Back in 1986, when Rove worked for Bill Clements, Rove planted electronic bugs in Clements' campaign office and started shrieking that Mark White's people did it. Police dropped the investigation when they realized Rove probably did it (The batteries had such a short life they couldn't have been planted the night before and still have power.).

Clements won because White signed a law requiring high school football players to pass their classes in order to play. Clearly, he was a satanic communist fag and had to go.
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Post by Beowulf »

Elfdart wrote:If these are fakes, it wouldn't be a first for the Republicans. Remember the phony photo showing Kerry and Jane Fonda on a stage together? Back in 1986, when Rove worked for Bill Clements, Rove planted electronic bugs in Clements' campaign office and started shrieking that Mark White's people did it. Police dropped the investigation when they realized Rove probably did it (The batteries had such a short life they couldn't have been planted the night before and still have power.).

Clements won because White signed a law requiring high school football players to pass their classes in order to play. Clearly, he was a satanic communist fag and had to go.
Ah yes, blame it all on the Republicans... :roll:
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Elfdart wrote:If these are fakes, it wouldn't be a first for the Republicans. Remember the phony photo showing Kerry and Jane Fonda on a stage together? Back in 1986, when Rove worked for Bill Clements, Rove planted electronic bugs in Clements' campaign office and started shrieking that Mark White's people did it. Police dropped the investigation when they realized Rove probably did it (The batteries had such a short life they couldn't have been planted the night before and still have power.).

Clements won because White signed a law requiring high school football players to pass their classes in order to play. Clearly, he was a satanic communist fag and had to go.
Russian school got attacked? Must be the Israelis!

WTC got destroyed? Must be the Jews!

Pentagon got attacked? Must be the CIA!

Memo attacking Bush was forged? Must be Karl Rove!
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Elfdart wrote:If these are fakes, it wouldn't be a first for the Republicans. Remember the phony photo showing Kerry and Jane Fonda on a stage together? Back in 1986, when Rove worked for Bill Clements, Rove planted electronic bugs in Clements' campaign office and started shrieking that Mark White's people did it. Police dropped the investigation when they realized Rove probably did it (The batteries had such a short life they couldn't have been planted the night before and still have power.).

Clements won because White signed a law requiring high school football players to pass their classes in order to play. Clearly, he was a satanic communist fag and had to go.
... Yeah, the Republican Party is attacking itself. Brilliant deduction there, Holmes! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over... :wtf:
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Post by Elfdart »

Various numbskulls wrote: If you think Republicans are capable of dirty tricks, you believe in UFOs and other looney things!
The Republicans have a forty-four year track record of dirty tricks in presidential campaigns. Bush's supporters have already produced two proven forgeries: the Kerry/ Fonda photo and Bob Anderson's name on the Shit Boaters' letter. IF, and this is a huge "if", these are forged, it fits the m.o. of Karl Rove, who bugged his own office and claimed his opponents did it in 1986.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Elfdart wrote:
Various numbskulls wrote: If you think Republicans are capable of dirty tricks, you believe in UFOs and other looney things!
The Republicans have a forty-four year track record of dirty tricks in presidential campaigns. Bush's supporters have already produced two proven forgeries: the Kerry/ Fonda photo and Bob Anderson's name on the Shit Boaters' letter. IF, and this is a huge "if", these are forged, it fits the m.o. of Karl Rove, who bugged his own office and claimed his opponents did it in 1986.
So if its not a forgery it makes look bad, and if it is a forgery it counterintuitively makes Bush look worse. :roll: I'm pretty sure that's a fallacy, but I can't place the name...
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Post by Darth Wong »

Rogue 9 wrote:So if its not a forgery it makes look bad, and if it is a forgery it counterintuitively makes Bush look worse. :roll: I'm pretty sure that's a fallacy, but I can't place the name...
Don't be stupid, Rogue; it's one thing to say that you doubt it's a forgery for other reasons, but it's quite another to inject your head with concrete and pretend that there's no conceivable benefit to the Bushies in this situation.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Darth Wong wrote:but it's quite another to inject your head with concrete and pretend that there's no conceivable benefit to the Bushies in this situation.
The other side could have rocks for brains, you realize?
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Post by MKSheppard »

Or the people running the DNC want Kerry to lose to clear the decks
for Hillary in '08....
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Post by Elfdart »

MKSheppard wrote:Or the people running the DNC want Kerry to lose to clear the decks
for Hillary in '08....
Now who's peddling conspiracy theories? :roll:

Hillary has already been in the White House for eight years. Maybe after one dittohead fired a rifle at him through the White House fence and another tried to crash a plane into the building, she's had enough.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Elfdart wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:Or the people running the DNC want Kerry to lose to clear the decks
for Hillary in '08....
Now who's peddling conspiracy theories? :roll:
I think he was making fun of you.
Hillary has already been in the White House for eight years. Maybe after one dittohead fired a rifle at him through the White House fence and another tried to crash a plane into the building, she's had enough.
Or maybe she and the martians want to show those crazy New Zealanders a thing or two about raising sheep, so she's got this plan set up to allow for them to use the White House lawn as prime grazing land in order to transform the country back into an agrarian ideal like in Thomas Jefferson's fantasies.
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Or maybe she and the martians want to show those crazy New Zealanders a thing or two about raising sheep, so she's got this plan set up to allow for them to use the White House lawn as prime grazing land in order to transform the country back into an agrarian ideal like in Thomas Jefferson's fantasies.
I think you mean cattle, Ossus, that would explain those cattle futures she got involved with back in the late 70's. See, it's all coming together now!
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Post by Durandal »

I see that those crying "forgery!" are still ignoring the burden of proof.

IN ORDER TO SHOW THAT THESE ARE FORGERIES, YOU MUST SHOW THAT THESE DOCUMENTS COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN PRODUCED ON A TYPEWRITER FROM THE 1970's.

The people advocating the forgery theory have not done this. If you look at the picture of the IBM Executive's output I posted earlier, you'll see that a 1970's typewriter was perfectly capable of producing such output with a super-script add-on, which was available at the time.

So these documents could have come from a 1970's typewriter. There is absolutely no physical reason they could not have. What we're left with is a bunch of nitpicking about signature blocks and periods i acronyms. But what these nitpicks don't change is that these documents could have easily come from a 1970's printer, which makes the theory that they are genuine the simplest explanation and therefore the most logical one, given that they bring no outrageous accusations to the table. (It'd be one thing if Killian wrote a memo about how he and Bush did a few lines and then sodomized a goat.)

They tell us that Bush skipped out on a required medical exam. This is corroborated by DoD documents known to be genuine. The only new thing they tell us that Bush's failure to perform his duty was "sugar-coated" by someone with influence at the top. This is corroborated by the absence of required documentation that should accompany an officer's failure to miss a required examination. So the best theory is that those documents are, in fact, real. Piss and whine about it all you want, but welcome to Deductive Reasoning.
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Post by Elfdart »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Elfdart wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:Or the people running the DNC want Kerry to lose to clear the decks
for Hillary in '08....
Now who's peddling conspiracy theories? :roll:
I think he was making fun of you.
Hillary has already been in the White House for eight years. Maybe after one dittohead fired a rifle at him through the White House fence and another tried to crash a plane into the building, she's had enough.
Or maybe she and the martians want to show those crazy New Zealanders a thing or two about raising sheep, so she's got this plan set up to allow for them to use the White House lawn as prime grazing land in order to transform the country back into an agrarian ideal like in Thomas Jefferson's fantasies.
Please. :roll: Shepster's idea of humor is yukking it up over the photo of the napalmed Vietnamese girl.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Durandal wrote:IN ORDER TO SHOW THAT THESE ARE FORGERIES, YOU MUST SHOW THAT THESE DOCUMENTS COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN PRODUCED ON A TYPEWRITER FROM THE 1970's.
So you admit that the 18 minutes on the Nixon tape was a genuine
mistake by his secretary?
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Post by Beowulf »

Asking us to prove a negative? Wow... I thought you knew better than that.

So Col Killian has this expensive typesetting machine in his office, that looks extremely complicated, with a bunch of extra dials and knobs, and which is mostly used to produce photo ready text for printing. And which happens to cost more than a new car. Yes, the Composer has proportional spacing, and special type balls could be ordered, but it's not very plausible that a Col's office would have such a device. The Selectric Composer was not used for ordinary typewriting.

This neglects mentioning the fact that type spacing is extremely variable, even between two copies of what is ostensibly the same font. There's also the fact that the signatures do not match what we know to be Col Killian's signature looks like.

Find a type writer, on which you can type up the contents of the memos, and have it match exactly, and Bravo, you've merely proved they might be authentic.
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Post by Elfdart »

MKSheppard wrote:
Durandal wrote:IN ORDER TO SHOW THAT THESE ARE FORGERIES, YOU MUST SHOW THAT THESE DOCUMENTS COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN PRODUCED ON A TYPEWRITER FROM THE 1970's.
So you admit that the 18 minutes on the Nixon tape was a genuine
mistake by his secretary?
Was she ever charged with obstruction of justice? I doubt it. Besides, Nixon was run out of town even without it.
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