Lets talk about the Scottish referendum

[Broomstick]

In the US, for instance, predominantly rural states almost never pay as much in taxes as they receive in federal funds.

And when people whine about money flowing from cities to the rural countryside they should be slapped upside the head and told "that's where your FOOD comes from, you fucking morons!". As well as other resources. Sure, money flows out of the cities but those other areas do provide something in return.

[Civil War Man]

Pretty much what I was expecting. I had no idea what the percentage would be, but I was guessing that No would win, but with a much smaller margin than Cameron was expecting when the referendum was allowed.

Here's hoping the UK government learns the correct lesson from this whole ordeal. Namely, don't take your people for granted. I say this because I sense there is a possibility that instead what they'll take away is "Don't let Scotland have another independence referendum."

[jwl]

Pretty much what I was expecting. I had no idea what the percentage would be, but I was guessing that No would win, but with a much smaller margin than Cameron was expecting when the referendum was allowed.

Here's hoping the UK government learns the correct lesson from this whole ordeal. Namely, don't take your people for granted. I say this because I sense there is a possibility that instead what they'll take away is "Don't let Scotland have another independence referendum."

"Don't let Scotland have another independence referendum" was a given way before the vote even happened. Salmond pledged that SNP wouldn't press for another referendum for a generation if the country votes No, that's why he kept going on about it being the scotland's only chance at independence.

[Zaune]

Ten years ago, the UK spent a lot of time and money verifying that no-one agrees with you. North-east England rejected the proposal to give them an elected assembly by 696,519 votes to 197,310; a result so bad (given that the NE was polling the highest of all regions to vote yes) that the referendums for all the other local assemblies were cancelled. The reason was of course that an additional layer of expensive corrupt worthless politicians in between the county and national levels would do nothing but waste more money, bother people with even more campaigns and ballots, and create more pointless drama.

I know. I thought it was a bad idea at the time, come to that. But one hell of a lot has changed in the intervening decade; we've had a massive recession, we've seen two hideously expensive foreign military adventures fail to achieve much of anything, and technological unemployment has ceased to be something we can talk of as a purely abstract concept. And those are just the things I can't legitimately blame the current government for!

At the very least, I think another referendum on the issue is worth looking into.

[Sharp-kun]

"Don't let Scotland have another independence referendum" was a given way before the vote even happened. Salmond pledged that SNP wouldn't press for another referendum for a generation if the country votes No, that's why he kept going on about it being the scotland's only chance at independence.

The only way I see another referendum happening this generation is if Westminister fucks up on additional powers. If they do there'll be a strong sense of betrayal and a lot of people on both sides will push for another vote.

At 55/45 that still means that almost half of Scotland voted to leave. At that level you can't just say "well that's the end of that" - there needs to be a meaningful follow up or this won't end.


I voted no, however I'd made my peace with both options. I would not have been sad at a yes win and felt that both options had their strengths, I just felt that no was the slightly better option (I would have loved to see Westminister debate what to do with Trident though).

I do feel sorry for the yes voters this morning - a lot genuinely expected a win and are very disappointed (and some angry, but I think that will settle down for most people in a week). I do think though that the belief they'd win has been self-reinforcing to some extent. They've been the more vocal and visible side and for some its given them the believe that they were the bigger side. I had friends cheerful yesterday as the only badges they saw people wearing when they went to vote were yes badges and that they hadn't seen a single no voter. I don't think a lot of them appreciated the silent vote and set themselves up for a fall.

[Dartzap]

Man falls on sword, says 'ow'

Alex Salmond is to step down as first minister of Scotland after voters decisively rejected independence.

He will also resign as leader of the Scottish National Party (SNP) after the "No" side won Thursday's referendum by 2,001,926 to 1,617,989 for "Yes".

[Simon_Jester]

In the US, for instance, predominantly rural states almost never pay as much in taxes as they receive in federal funds.

And when people whine about money flowing from cities to the rural countryside they should be slapped upside the head and told "that's where your FOOD comes from, you fucking morons!". As well as other resources. Sure, money flows out of the cities but those other areas do provide something in return.

I would fondly imagine that you did not just attribute whiny and ignorant views to me, and I hope that is the case.

But then, I'm having a bad day and it's making me suspicious and cranky.

Now, let me point out that the US case is interesting precisely because the highest concentration of antitax, anti-federal-spending voters are found in areas that are heavily dependent on federal spending sustained by taxes.

I would also like to point out that I just said that overall, one of the major roles of even having a government is to ensure some kind of transfer of resources, so that you don't end up with a patchwork of briefly-successful places getting dragged down into a sea of decay.

[Steve]

How much of that federal spending is highly visible to the local population though? Additionally, one of the oldest principles of power is that those with the purse strings can control how the money is spent. Accepting federal dollars can (and sometimes does) lead to having to spend it how the federal government wants, or can be used to compel local government to relent to federal authority on a local issue (see: speed limit laws, which can be tied into federal highway money).

So it's not too surprising that rural populations might get an anti-tax, anti-federal tendency regardless of how much they may need federal tax dollars.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well that's relieving. Not because of the result (as an Englishman living in Wales I don't get a say anyway, but I'd have voted "No") but because now the referendum and independence won't be the sole thing people are bellyaching about on Facebook.

[K. A. Pital]

The chance to get an independent nation of one's own is something that happens once a century.

Good that people squandered it for some Westminster FUD talk and good sleep. Can't underestimate the value of good sleep.

[UnderAGreySky]

Good that people squandered it for some Westminster FUD talk and good sleep. Can't underestimate the value of good sleep.

Who is this laden-with-subtext post targeted at?

[K. A. Pital]

Good that people squandered it for some Westminster FUD talk and good sleep. Can't underestimate the value of good sleep.

Who is this laden-with-subtext post targeted at?

At no one in particular, but when faced with 'business as usual' and 'GET OWN NATION' option two wins for me, as it is a once in a lifetime chance. So I am dissappointed.

[Kane Starkiller]

The chance to get an independent nation of one's own is something that happens once a century.

Good that people squandered it for some Westminster FUD talk and good sleep. Can't underestimate the value of good sleep.

Hey remember that discussion we had several years back about Taiwan declaring de iure independence from China? You know where you declared that Taiwanese attempts were "stupid" because they are risking worsening the booming trade relationship with China?
And how, since it is a very divisive issue among Taiwanese, there is no reason to push for it? How it's all "abstract shit"? How they should create ROC-PRC union?


But now when the country in question is UK it is a ONCE IN A LIFETIME opportunity!!!!! Why don't they break the UK apart already?!!?!?!?!

[K. A. Pital]

Heheh, but that is the thing - if you actually pay for independence in blood (like most nations or would be nations do), you tend to think that it be valued more if you can get it without fighting.

My opinion on the Taiwanese has actually changed from that day, believe it or not. I think that if they can and wish to achieve a de-jure independence (they do have a de-facto one), they should go for it and consequences be damned. It is too rare a prize.

I also dislike Britain very much, but everyone knows that. Consider me biased. I think of Taiwan better than I do of Britain.

[Guardsman Bass]

How much of that federal spending is highly visible to the local population though? Additionally, one of the oldest principles of power is that those with the purse strings can control how the money is spent. Accepting federal dollars can (and sometimes does) lead to having to spend it how the federal government wants, or can be used to compel local government to relent to federal authority on a local issue (see: speed limit laws, which can be tied into federal highway money).

So it's not too surprising that rural populations might get an anti-tax, anti-federal tendency regardless of how much they may need federal tax dollars.

Most of them did have to choose to accept it, though. It's like with Medicaid - they could decline the federal funding and not have to set up the program, and a couple of them did do that for a few years when Medicaid first came out (and many are doing it now with the Medicaid expansion).

[Zaune]

At no one in particular, but when faced with 'business as usual' and 'GET OWN NATION' option two wins for me, as it is a once in a lifetime chance. So I am disappointed.

It's perhaps worth noting that the binary 'status quo' vs 'total secession' choice was insisted upon by the ruling party in London as a condition of having the referendum at all, when the SNP originally wanted a third option for more extensive regional autonomy while still remaining part of the union.

From that point of view, since even Cameron has to be dimly aware that going back on his promises of greater devolution will have ugly consequences, I'd say the result could have been an awful lot worse.

[Starglider]

Alex Salmond is to step down as first minister of Scotland after voters decisively rejected independence.

That is more dignified than I expected. I will increase my respect assignment from 0% to 1%.

I also dislike Britain very much, but everyone knows that.

Yes, well, your mental illness does slowly seem to be decreasing. You used to be a hardcore Stalinism apologist. Projecting on the observed rate of behavioural change, two decades before you appreciate that Britain is awesome (+-3 years assuming no invasive engram modification).

[Simon_Jester]

Heheh, but that is the thing - if you actually pay for independence in blood (like most nations or would be nations do), you tend to think that it be valued more if you can get it without fighting.

My opinion on the Taiwanese has actually changed from that day, believe it or not. I think that if they can and wish to achieve a de-jure independence (they do have a de-facto one), they should go for it and consequences be damned. It is too rare a prize.

Well, the fundamental question is, is independence always desirable? If so, then the logical endpoint is anarchy: everyone independent from everyone else.

So there comes a point at which, rationally, it is not desirable for a province to seek independence. The heart of the debate over Scottish independence was (and is) whether or not Scotland is at that point.

I also dislike Britain very much, but everyone knows that. Consider me biased. I think of Taiwan better than I do of Britain.

But do you like Scotland more than you like Taiwan? And/or do you like China more than you like Britain?

If China somehow asserted rule over Taiwan, it is likely that some number of Taiwanese would be killed or imprisoned. No one's going to jail over the Scottish independence referendum, not even the leaders of the 'rebel' side of the debate.

What matters is not whether Britain is bad and therefore it is automatically good to break it up. What matters is whether independence is right for the people of Scotland.

[Bedlam]

Heheh, but that is the thing - if you actually pay for independence in blood (like most nations or would be nations do), you tend to think that it be valued more if you can get it without fighting.

My opinion on the Taiwanese has actually changed from that day, believe it or not. I think that if they can and wish to achieve a de-jure independence (they do have a de-facto one), they should go for it and consequences be damned. It is too rare a prize.

Well, the fundamental question is, is independence always desirable? If so, then the logical endpoint is anarchy: everyone independent from everyone else.

So there comes a point at which, rationally, it is not desirable for a province to seek independence. The heart of the debate over Scottish independence was (and is) whether or not Scotland is at that point.

I would say that independence is not always desirable and that independence on the grounds that it benefits yourself financially at a penalty to others is not morally defendable. States should function for the greater good of all of their population. If Scotland has seeded on the grounds that say, money from north sea oil would have made them all better off (whether that was true or not) could not than argue any higher ground if a tiny island in the oil fields with a population of 100 in tern seeded from them on the grounds it would be richer without the rest of Scotland.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, the catch is that it's not just about enriching yourself in Scotland's case. The other side of the coin is that the Scots believe that British overall policy is NOT being made with an eye to the well-being of Scotland. This is an important issue and it's one of the main things that triggers independence movements in general. Because if the central government is not "functioning for the greater good of" your part of the population, you have very little incentive to obey it.

So when the people of an entire territory collectively feel that their voice is not heard, that their interests are not protected by their government... you get a secessionist movement, and rightly so. And it's not purely a matter of personal gain for the people of the seceding province.

[K. A. Pital]

Yes, well, your mental illness does slowly seem to be decreasing. You used to be a hardcore Stalinism apologist. Projecting on the observed rate of behavioural change, two decades before you appreciate that Britain is awesome (+-3 years assuming no invasive engram modification).

Oh, that is not my supposed 'mental illness' decreasing (although for a person who is blind to suffering and shielded by one of the most extensive First World barriers, any other position than his may seem like a mental illness indeed). That is your nation sliding into well-deserved oblivion - not as fast as I'd want to see it, but fast enough. When the enemy is falling, why not be a bit more... forgiving, shall we say?

[Ralin]

In the US, for instance, predominantly rural states almost never pay as much in taxes as they receive in federal funds.

And when people whine about money flowing from cities to the rural countryside they should be slapped upside the head and told "that's where your FOOD comes from, you fucking morons!". As well as other resources. Sure, money flows out of the cities but those other areas do provide something in return.

Isn't most of America's food grown by huge agribusiness companies that require relatively few people to do so?

[Broomstick]

In the US, for instance, predominantly rural states almost never pay as much in taxes as they receive in federal funds.

And when people whine about money flowing from cities to the rural countryside they should be slapped upside the head and told "that's where your FOOD comes from, you fucking morons!". As well as other resources. Sure, money flows out of the cities but those other areas do provide something in return.

I would fondly imagine that you did not just attribute whiny and ignorant views to me, and I hope that is the case.

No, sir, my comment was also meant in a general manner. Given that I don't ever recall you whining about your taxes flowing out of the city to the hinterlands that goes double for you.

[Simon_Jester]

Isn't most of America's food grown by huge agribusiness companies that require relatively few people to do so?

Relatively few people are involved in directly operating the farms. But those people couldn't live in the relevant areas unless there was an infrastructure. The farms don't mean anything and can't function without roads (including major highways), schools, towns with a community and social life, suppliers of the numerous kinds of agricultural goods required to make modern farming possible... it adds up.

We are a LONG way from a "Caves of Steel" scenario in which all or nearly all humans can retreat inside massive arcologies while the food is grown by robots, even if we wanted to live that way, which I really don't.

[Ralin]

Isn't most of America's food grown by huge agribusiness companies that require relatively few people to do so?

Relatively few people are involved in directly operating the farms. But those people couldn't live in the relevant areas unless there was an infrastructure. The farms don't mean anything and can't function without roads (including major highways), schools, towns with a community and social life, suppliers of the numerous kinds of agricultural goods required to make modern farming possible... it adds up.

We are a LONG way from a "Caves of Steel" scenario in which all or nearly all humans can retreat inside massive arcologies while the food is grown by robots, even if we wanted to live that way, which I really don't.

I was more getting at the idea that there's probably a limit to how much investment they really need before people in the cities start having legit complaints. But eh, not like I'm in any position to weigh in on that math