The 2016 US Election (Part I)

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Re: The US Election 2016

Post by The Romulan Republic »

And in other news, The Economist ranked "Donald Trump wins the US presidential election" as a "Global risk", between "The rising threat of jihadi terrorism destabilizes the global economy" and ""Grexit" is followed by a euro zone break-up"

https://gfs.eiu.com/Archive.aspx?archiveType=globalrisk
Global risk
April 2016
Global risk intensity|High probability, Very high impactChina experiences a hard landing
Global risk intensity|High probability, High impactRussia's interventions in Ukraine and Syria precede a new "cold war"
Global risk intensity|High probability, High impactCurrency volatility culminates in an emerging markets corporate debt crisis
Global risk intensity|Moderate probability, Very high impactBeset by external and internal pressures, the EU begins to fracture
Global risk intensity|Moderate probability, Very high impact"Grexit" is followed by a euro zone break-up
Global risk intensity|Moderate probability, High impactDonald Trump wins the US presidential election
Global risk intensity|Moderate probability, High impactThe rising threat of jihadi terrorism destabilises the global economy
Global risk intensity|Low probability, High impactThe UK votes to leave the EU
Global risk intensity|Low probability, High impactChinese expansionism prompts a clash of arms in the South China Sea
Global risk intensity|Very low probability, High impactA collapse in investment in the oil sector prompts a future oil price shock
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Re: The US Election 2016

Post by Crazedwraith »

Also of interest, though not to this thread so much is Brexit as 'low probability, high impact'
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Re: The US Election 2016

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NPR
Erick Erickson Urges Republicans To Prepare 'Third-Party Alternative'

Updated March 17, 201612:44 PM ET
Published March 16, 20164:21 PM ET
NPR's Ari Shapiro speaks with Erick Erickson, founder of conservative website, "The Resurgent." The prominent Republican believes if Donald Trump wins the party's presidential nomination, Republicans should prepare to launch a third party candidate as an alternative.
If this happens, I imagine it will be rather like the 1992 Presidential race, with Ross Perot being the spoiler for a Republican victory back then that Trump is now. Or will Republicans bite the bullet and have Trump as their candidate?
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Re: The US Election 2016

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Interesting exchange about Bernie vs Hillary
I respect what Bernie is trying to do, but America will not elect a socialist. I understand what Democratic socialism is, but that is something that needs to be sold to the American people. And a presidential election is not the time or the place to sell new ideas.

We can't risk the Supreme Court by trying to sell democratic socialism.
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Re: The US Election 2016

Post by Civil War Man »

Lord MJ wrote:Interesting exchange about Bernie vs Hillary
I respect what Bernie is trying to do, but America will not elect a socialist. I understand what Democratic socialism is, but that is something that needs to be sold to the American people. And a presidential election is not the time or the place to sell new ideas.

We can't risk the Supreme Court by trying to sell democratic socialism.
I can see where they're coming from, but I think they are overselling American aversion to the word socialism. That fear is mostly a relic of Red Scare, Cold War thinking, primarily among conservative Baby Boomers.

I also figure most people who wouldn't vote for Sanders because they're afraid of socialism are probably not going to vote for Clinton, either, so it's not really much of an argument in favor of supporting Clinton over Sanders.

On top of that, Republicans spent years calling Obama a socialist, and he was elected twice, so those accusations alone are not enough to make someone unelectable.

There are legit criticisms people can make about Sanders, but I don't think "Americans are scared of the word socialism" is all that relevant.
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Re: The US Election 2016

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I'm taking offense more of : And a presidential election is not the time or the place to sell new ideas.

Given that a theme of this election is people are fed up with the status quo and the establishment, the solution should of course be stick with a centrist establishment candidate and not try to sell "new ideas" which would risk getting Trump elected.

Same person said calling out Clinton for her corruption and crony-capitalism only serves the interests of Donald Trump, and if Donald Trump wins because Bernie Supporters smear her, then they are to blame...
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Re: The US Election 2016

Post by Flagg »

Lord MJ wrote:Interesting exchange about Bernie vs Hillary
I respect what Bernie is trying to do, but America will not elect a socialist. I understand what Democratic socialism is, but that is something that needs to be sold to the American people. And a presidential election is not the time or the place to sell new ideas.

We can't risk the Supreme Court by trying to sell democratic socialism.
WAT?! (To bolded).
1) We already are Democratic Socialists. We're in a democracy that practices all sorts of socialism. If you're an American, you're a Democratic Republican Socialist! Well, maybe not as "democratic" as it used to be, but close enough.
2) A presidential election is exactly the time and the place to sell new ideas. But let's talk about why that doesn't even apply to Bernie "Brings a sharpie and a stick-on name card to a wedding reception and writes Mr. <grooms last name> On it to steal cocktail shrimp and booze" Sanders.

Sanders' issue is that he has none. You know the Biden line about Dick Cheney? "A noun, a verb, and 9/11"? Well that's the exact same issue with Bernie. Only his answer to everything is "A noun, a verb, and We have to reign in Wall Street!" Now, I agree with the assertion that Wall Street needs to be "reigned in" (I'd use the term "hobbled").
But when asked how to handle the delicate balance of keeping the brutal Assad regime in check, while also fighting ISIS and keeping the Russians involved in that fight and the myriad of other factors, if the answer, like Sanders' answers usually do, resembles: "Well, first of all, we need to reign in Wall Street!", that's a no-go.

You don't get to pick what kind of President you want to be when it comes to domestic or foreign policy. I'm not Hillary Clinton's #1 fan. In fact I think she's too far to the right of Obama on foreign policy and is more of the same Wall Street big money bullshittery, but since no actual democrats were strong enough to challenge her in the primaries (as opposed to Liberal independents loved by the NRA who hated Super-Delegates until they were the only way he could win) and the GOP has gone full-drooling idiot, she's the only one who has any credible experience both foreign and domestic, and thus is the only one remotely qualified.

Which is a sad fucking testament to our "Democracy" which will have 2 Clinton's and 2 Bush's as President within a span of 30 years.
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Re: The US Election 2016

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Lord MJ wrote:I'm taking offense more of : And a presidential election is not the time or the place to sell new ideas.

Given that a theme of this election is people are fed up with the status quo and the establishment, the solution should of course be stick with a centrist establishment candidate and not try to sell "new ideas" which would risk getting Trump elected.

Same person said calling out Clinton for her corruption and crony-capitalism only serves the interests of Donald Trump, and if Donald Trump wins because Bernie Supporters smear her, then they are to blame...
Yeah, I was in a rush to get out the door, so I didn't have enough time to include that part in my post.

Also, "a presidential election is not the time or the place to sell new ideas" is a similar line of thinking to what gave us people saying "Is America ready for a black president?" in 2008. It's not apples to apples, but it's a similar mindset. It even has a similar "I'd be fine with it, but I'm just worried that all these other unenlightened people around me would not be able to grasp it with their primitive reptilian brains" vibe with the first two sentences. It was a poor argument then, and I consider it a poor argument now, both when it's used against Bernie's progressive politics or Jewish religion, or against Hillary's gender.
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Re: The US Election 2016

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Flagg wrote: WAT?! (To bolded).
1) We already are Democratic Socialists. We're in a democracy that practices all sorts of socialism. If you're an American, you're a Democratic Republican Socialist! Well, maybe not as "democratic" as it used to be, but close enough.
2) A presidential election is exactly the time and the place to sell new ideas.
She knows that already that America already practices socialism, but says it's risky to try to sell that during a presidential election where the price of failure is electing Donald Trump.
But let's talk about why that doesn't even apply to Bernie "Brings a sharpie and a stick-on name card to a wedding reception and writes Mr. <grooms last name> On it to steal cocktail shrimp and booze" Sanders.
Oh dear...
Sanders' issue is that he has none. You know the Biden line about Dick Cheney? "A noun, a verb, and 9/11"? Well that's the exact same issue with Bernie. Only his answer to everything is "A noun, a verb, and We have to reign in Wall Street!" Now, I agree with the assertion that Wall Street needs to be "reigned in" (I'd use the term "hobbled").
He specifically mentions that we need to put back Glass-Stegall in place and break up the banks since they are too large now and the collapse of one could collapse the economy due to how much wealth is concentrated into them.

You also fail to mention all of Bernie's other policy positions such as dealing with money in politics, raising minimum wage, getting college to be tuition free, single payer, eliminating the gender wage gap, etc, etc.
But when asked how to handle the delicate balance of keeping the brutal Assad regime in check, while also fighting ISIS and keeping the Russians involved in that fight and the myriad of other factors, if the answer, like Sanders' answers usually do, resembles: "Well, first of all, we need to reign in Wall Street!", that's a no-go.
Bernie's stance has been we need to stop the policy of fighting both Assad and ISIS at the same time. Focus on fighting ISIS and stop with the cause of regime change in ousting Assad. He's in general an opponent of the US conducting regime change in other countries.

On the topic of "Wall St" he also mentioned other firms are buying our politicians, including the defense industry which influences all these military conflicts we end up getting into.

You don't get to pick what kind of President you want to be when it comes to domestic or foreign policy. I'm not Hillary Clinton's #1 fan. In fact I think she's too far to the right of Obama on foreign policy and is more of the same Wall Street big money bullshittery, but since no actual democrats were strong enough to challenge her in the primaries (as opposed to Liberal independents loved by the NRA who hated Super-Delegates until they were the only way he could win) and the GOP has gone full-drooling idiot, she's the only one who has any credible experience both foreign and domestic, and thus is the only one remotely qualified.
So your issue with Bernie is that he's an independent. So only long serving card carrying Democrats supported by the party establishment can run for the Democratic nomination now? I guess were resigned to mostly corrupt politicians from here on out then...

How is Bernie loved by the NRA? Except for a few occasions he's voted against NRA interests.

As far as Super-Delegates goes, you realize they were created specifically because the party establishment was cranky they were left out of the process so the party created Super Delegates to placate them?

I would argue if not for Hillary being Secretary of State under Obama, Bernie Sander's foreign policy experience would outstrip Hillary's or at least be equal.
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Re: The US Election 2016

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You just said what I said using more words. Wall Street! Big Money! RAAAAR! That's all he has.

And I'm not debating-by-proxy, so your friend can join and speak for herself or not.

And Sanders got an A+ rating from the NRA. So yeah.

Also, Sanders has flat out said in the past few weeks that he ran as a Democrat for money and media exposure despite him being an Independant in the Senate forever.
He also was against Super-Delegates, until they became the only way he could realistically get the nomination. Right now he seems to like them and wants them all to vote for him.

And honestly, your last statement may be the dumbest thing I've ever heard this week. You know, I bet that guy begging for change on the street would know as much or more about veterinary medicine than my veterinarian if he went to vet school for 4 years! :lol: :wanker:
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Re: The US Election 2016

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Flagg wrote:You just said what I said using more words. Wall Street! Big Money! RAAAAR! That's all he has.
Considering that that is an underlying issue, him calling it out is pretty important. Most other issues are completely meaningless unless the fundamental issue of big money controlling our government is solved.
And Sanders got an A+ rating from the NRA. So yeah.
Where are you getting this A+ rating stuff from? All evidence I've seen shows him getting a D- rating, and the highest rating he ever got from the NRA is a C.
Also, Sanders has flat out said in the past few weeks that he ran as a Democrat for money and media exposure despite him being an Independant in the Senate forever.
So? He actually wants to win the election and isn't running just for show.
He also was against Super-Delegates, until they became the only way he could realistically get the nomination. Right now he seems to like them and wants them all to vote for him.
He actually said that as he wins more votes and actual delegates that he hopes the superdelegates start to come around to his side. Most of them are establishment insiders so the likelihood of that happening without Sanders taking the lead in pledged delegates is low, but its a fair statement to make.

And honestly, your last statement may be the dumbest thing I've ever heard this week. You know, I bet that guy begging for change on the street would know as much or more about veterinary medicine than my veterinarian if he went to vet school for 4 years! :lol: :wanker:
How is it dumb. Bernie has been in Congress for almost 30 years. Which gives plenty of time to get foreign policy experience. Which if not for Hillary being secretary of state, I would argue would surpass Hillary's. Espescially since a lot of Hillary's foreign policy experience involves her being hawkish.
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Re: The US Election 2016

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Lord MJ wrote:How is it dumb. Bernie has been in Congress for almost 30 years. Which gives plenty of time to get foreign policy experience. Which if not for Hillary being secretary of state, I would argue would surpass Hillary's. Espescially since a lot of Hillary's foreign policy experience involves her being hawkish.
How is it dumb? Is that a serious question?

I'm going to get on the desktop to easier post the rest, but I have to do this now.

Hillary has the experience, Sanders does not. Saying that "Well if she hadn't been THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR 4 YEARS then she'd have the same amount of, or less experience than Mr. Independant Senator From Vermont is like saying that Einstein wouldn't have been a genius if he hadn't figured out how the universe works! It's one, fucking obvious, and two, doesn't fucking matter because she WAS SECRETARY OF STATE FOR 4 YEARS. So it's beside the point and overall an incredibly stupid fucking argument to make.
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Re: The US Election 2016

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Flagg wrote:
Lord MJ wrote:How is it dumb. Bernie has been in Congress for almost 30 years. Which gives plenty of time to get foreign policy experience. Which if not for Hillary being secretary of state, I would argue would surpass Hillary's. Espescially since a lot of Hillary's foreign policy experience involves her being hawkish.
How is it dumb? Is that a serious question?

I'm going to get on the desktop to easier post the rest, but I have to do this now.

Hillary has the experience, Sanders does not. Saying that "Well if she hadn't been THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR 4 YEARS then she'd have the same amount of, or less experience than Mr. Independant Senator From Vermont is like saying that Einstein wouldn't have been a genius if he hadn't figured out how the universe works! It's one, fucking obvious, and two, doesn't fucking matter because she WAS SECRETARY OF STATE FOR 4 YEARS. So it's beside the point and overall an incredibly stupid fucking argument to make.
Because we are comparing her to someone whose been in government for almost 30 years, not some Joe off the street (which comparatively speaking Obama was when she ran against Hillary last time). The gulf between Sanders/Clinton is much more narrow the Obama/Clinton even taking into account that Hillary got 4 years of foreign policy experience since the last election she was in.
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Re: The US Election 2016

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Lord MJ wrote: Because we are comparing her to someone whose been in government for almost 30 years, not some Joe off the street (which comparatively speaking Obama was when she ran against Hillary last time). The gulf between Sanders/Clinton is much more narrow the Obama/Clinton even taking into account that Hillary got 4 years of foreign policy experience since the last election she was in.
You're saying this like you get to ignore parts of peoples resume just for your own convenience.

Well. Do you?
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Re: The US Election 2016

Post by Flagg »

Lord MJ wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Lord MJ wrote:How is it dumb. Bernie has been in Congress for almost 30 years. Which gives plenty of time to get foreign policy experience. Which if not for Hillary being secretary of state, I would argue would surpass Hillary's. Espescially since a lot of Hillary's foreign policy experience involves her being hawkish.
How is it dumb? Is that a serious question?

I'm going to get on the desktop to easier post the rest, but I have to do this now.

Hillary has the experience, Sanders does not. Saying that "Well if she hadn't been THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR 4 YEARS then she'd have the same amount of, or less experience than Mr. Independant Senator From Vermont is like saying that Einstein wouldn't have been a genius if he hadn't figured out how the universe works! It's one, fucking obvious, and two, doesn't fucking matter because she WAS SECRETARY OF STATE FOR 4 YEARS. So it's beside the point and overall an incredibly stupid fucking argument to make.
Because we are comparing her to someone whose been in government for almost 30 years, not some Joe off the street (which comparatively speaking Obama was when she ran against Hillary last time). The gulf between Sanders/Clinton is much more narrow the Obama/Clinton even taking into account that Hillary got 4 years of foreign policy experience since the last election she was in.
It doesn't matter, you cretin. Again, the statement is idiotic at best. She has the experience that he doesn't. So you can't just pretend that she wasn't Secretary of State for 4 years and call it even you twit. She has more foreign policy experience than Bernie "Noun, Verb, and Wall Street" Sanders ever will. That's not why he will never be president, but seems to be about the level of intelligence the Alamo Sanders supporters have. Will you cry when he gets laughed out of the convention (assuming the magical brain fairy doesn't come and rub a few of his brain cells together to make him realize he's a loser and a joke)?

Now, on to your prior buffoonery:
Lord MJ wrote:
Flagg wrote:You just said what I said using more words. Wall Street! Big Money! RAAAAR! That's all he has.
Considering that that is an underlying issue, him calling it out is pretty important. Most other issues are completely meaningless unless the fundamental issue of big money controlling our government is solved.
The current president seems to be mostly with that. Too bad for the SCOTUS and entire legislative branch. Is Bernie going to just wave a magic wand? What makes you think him being President (he will never be) would give him any more power than Obama had? And it may be the root of a lot of issues, but it's not an answer to specific questions regarding foreign policy and like I said, his answers for questions that have nothing to do with fiscal policy start and end with "Reign In Wall Street!"
And Sanders got an A+ rating from the NRA. So yeah.
Where are you getting this A+ rating stuff from? All evidence I've seen shows him getting a D- rating, and the highest rating he ever got from the NRA is a C.
Well there's This from Slate. I can't find an A+ from the NRA, so I retract that, but this is worse, IMO:
Slate wrote:Bernie Sanders, Gun Nut

He supported the most reprehensible pro-gun legislation in recent memory.

By Mark Joseph Stern

When Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders jumped into the 2016 presidential race, he was widely hailed as a far-left socialist who would appeal to the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. A liberal challenge to Hillary Clinton, said Politico. True progressives’ liberal alternative, trumpeted FiveThirtyEight. But before liberal Democrats flock to Sanders, they should remember that the Vermont senator stands firmly to Clinton’s right on one issue of overwhelming importance to the Democratic base: gun control. During his time in Congress, Sanders opposed several moderate gun control bills. He also supported the most odious NRA–backed law in recent memory—one that may block Sandy Hook families from winning a lawsuit against the manufacturer of the gun used to massacre their children.

Sanders, an economic populist and middle-class pugilist, doesn’t talk much about guns on the campaign trail. But his voting record paints the picture of a legislator who is both skeptical of gun control and invested in the interests of gun owners—and manufacturers. In 1993, then-Rep. Sanders voted against the Brady Act, which mandated federal background checks for gun purchasers and restricted felons’ access to firearms. As a senator, Sanders supported bills to allow firearms in checked bags on Amtrak trains and block funding to any foreign aid organization that registered or taxed Americans’ guns. Sanders is dubious that gun control could help prevent gun violence, telling one interviewer after Sandy Hook that “if you passed the strongest gun control legislation tomorrow, I don’t think it will have a profound effect on the tragedies we have seen.” (He has since endorsed some modest gun control measures.

None of these views are particularly shocking for a Vermont representative: Sanders’ deep-blue state has both high gun ownership and incredibly lax gun laws, and it’s perfectly logical for the senator to support his constituents’ firearms enthusiasm. And a close friend of Sanders once said that the senator “thinks there’s an elitism in the anti-gun movement.”

The act’s primary purpose is as simple as it is cold-blooded.

But Sanders’ vote for a different kind of pro-gun bill is more puzzling—and profoundly disturbing. In 2005, a Republican-dominated Congress passed the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA). This law doesn’t protect gun owners; it protects gun manufacturers, distributors, dealers, and importers. The PLCAA was the No. 1 legislative priority of the National Rifle Association for years, because it shields gun makers and dealers from most liability when their firearms are used criminally. It is one of the most noxious pieces of pro-gun legislation ever passed. And Bernie Sanders voted for it. (Sanders’ campaign has not replied to a request for comment.)


Because the PLCAA deals with tort law—not a topic of great interest for most Americans—it didn’t stir much outrage when first passed. But the act’s primary purpose is as simple as it is cold-blooded. Every state imposes liability on manufacturers who are negligent in their production and sale of products. If I crash my Prius because its accelerator malfunctions, I can sue Toyota for negligently manufacturing a faulty pedal. If my child dismembers himself with a blender at Sears, I can sue Sears for negligently leaving that blender within a child’s reach. If I get stabbed by a teenager with a switchblade, I might be able to sue the pawn shop owner who illegally sold a knife to a minor.


Before the PLCAA, most states imposed some form of tort liability on gun makers and sellers. If a gun manufacturer made an assault rifle that could slaughter dozens of people in a few seconds, for instance, one of its victims might sue the company for negligently making a gun that could foreseeably be used for mass murder. If a gun seller sold a gun to a customer without performing any kind of background check—and then the buyer opened fire on the subway—his victims might sue that seller for negligently providing a gun to a mentally unstable person. The standards in each state differed, but the bottom line remained the same: Victims of gun violence and their families could recover financially from the people and companies who negligently enabled gun violence.


The PLCAA changed all that. Remarkably, the act wiped out gun liability laws in all 50 states, rendering them invalid except for a handful of narrow exceptions. (So much for states’ rights.) Thanks to the law, victims of mass shootings are barred from suing the companies that produced a wartime weapon that no civilian could ever need. With few exceptions, victims cannot sue a gun seller for negligently providing a semiautomatic weapon to a lunatic who shoots them in a movie theater. Even if a jury decides a gun maker or seller should be liable, the PLCAA invalidates its verdict. The law tramples upon states’ rights, juries’ rights, and fundamental precepts of America’s civil justice system. And it received Bernie Sanders’ support—in both 2003 (when it was first introduced) and 2005 (when it finally passed).


Every few years, the families of mass shooting victims take gun makers to court for creating a weapon seemingly designed to kill as many people as possible in as short a time as possible. Every time, they run headfirst into the PLCAA. Right now, the families of Sandy Hook victims are searching for a loophole in the law, so they can sue Bushmaster for making the gun that sent 154 bullets through 20 children and six adults in 264 seconds. They will probably fail.


Several liberal congressional representatives have recently spoken out against the PLCAA, and if Democrats retake both houses of Congress, they may make repealing the law a priority. Hillary Clinton, who voted against the act as a senator, would almost certainly sign a repeal bill. Would a President Bernie Sanders? Until he says otherwise, we have every reason to believe the ostensible progressive hero would stand behind the vile legislation he championed just a decade ago.
Also, Sanders has flat out said in the past few weeks that he ran as a Democrat for money and media exposure despite him being an Independant in the Senate forever.
So? He actually wants to win the election and isn't running just for show.
So you don't have a problem with someone who has run as, and won as, an independent for decades jumping onto a major parties ticket solely for money and media exposure? You don't care that Bernie Sanders is essentially a political whore?
He also was against Super-Delegates, until they became the only way he could realistically get the nomination. Right now he seems to like them and wants them all to vote for him.
He actually said that as he wins more votes and actual delegates that he hopes the superdelegates start to come around to his side. Most of them are establishment insiders so the likelihood of that happening without Sanders taking the lead in pledged delegates is low, but its a fair statement to make.
So super delegates voting for the person who has been a member of the party she's on the ticket for pretty much her entire political life while she's far ahead in the delegate count and thus they would just be supporting the will of the party majority is bad, but super delegates voting for the guy who admittedly jumped on board at the last minute for fame and fortune who is far behind in the delegate count thus overturning the will of the majority of democrats is OK?

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Re: The US Election 2016

Post by Gaidin »

Flagg wrote: So super delegates voting for the person who has been a member of the party she's on the ticket for pretty much her entire political life while she's far ahead in the delegate count and thus they would just be supporting the will of the party majority is bad, but super delegates voting for the guy who admittedly jumped on board at the last minute for fame and fortune who is far behind in the delegate count thus overturning the will of the majority of democrats is OK?

Are you from Mars?
Legitimately that's how they work. Obama did it to her eight years ago. At least the ones that are politicians anyway. The ones that are just members of the committee may or may not give two craps but I don't know. If Bernie were to Start turning the table on her outrageously enough they'd have a public enough reason to turn tail on her. But, while he's filling speech halls, he's not filling ballot booths. That's the irony of his campaign.
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Re: The US Election 2016

Post by Simon_Jester »

The argument that Sanders is an opportunist who wouldn't be with the Democrats if it weren't for his political ambitions...

Frankly, I agree with it but don't care. We have a two-party system; we should expect that there will be American politicians working with or in both parties for reasons of personal convenience, even if they have always preferred to walk their own path when possible. In a multiparty system this wouldn't be an issue- but we don't have one of those.

Heck, I wish Ralph Nader'd had the sense to do in 2000 what Sanders is doing now, instead of running in a third party. We might have been better off for it. Being too proud to see the difference between Bush and Gore did NOT end well.

Principles are important, but when they stop you from building coalitions to defeat an unprincipled opponent, they become a suicide pact.
Gaidin wrote:
Lord MJ wrote: Because we are comparing her to someone whose been in government for almost 30 years, not some Joe off the street (which comparatively speaking Obama was when she ran against Hillary last time). The gulf between Sanders/Clinton is much more narrow the Obama/Clinton even taking into account that Hillary got 4 years of foreign policy experience since the last election she was in.
You're saying this like you get to ignore parts of peoples resume just for your own convenience.

Well. Do you?
Mrs. Clinton may not have held office during her husband's presidency and governorship, but she was assuredly "in politics."

There are people in American politics who can claim an experience advantage over Clinton, but just 'being a senator' is not, in my opinion, enough to justify such a claim.
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Re: The US Election 2016

Post by Gaidin »

Simon_Jester wrote:Mrs. Clinton may not have held office during her husband's presidency and governorship, but she was assuredly "in politics."

There are people in American politics who can claim an experience advantage over Clinton, but just 'being a senator' is not, in my opinion, enough to justify such a claim.
Forgive me for calling bullshit on him trying to pretend her four years at State doesn't exist. Carry on. :wtf:
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Re: The US Election 2016

Post by Flagg »

Gaidin wrote:
Flagg wrote: So super delegates voting for the person who has been a member of the party she's on the ticket for pretty much her entire political life while she's far ahead in the delegate count and thus they would just be supporting the will of the party majority is bad, but super delegates voting for the guy who admittedly jumped on board at the last minute for fame and fortune who is far behind in the delegate count thus overturning the will of the majority of democrats is OK?

Are you from Mars?
Legitimately that's how they work. Obama did it to her eight years ago. At least the ones that are politicians anyway. The ones that are just members of the committee may or may not give two craps but I don't know. If Bernie were to Start turning the table on her outrageously enough they'd have a public enough reason to turn tail on her. But, while he's filling speech halls, he's not filling ballot booths. That's the irony of his campaign.
Well, Obama was ahead pretty much most, if not the entire time, once the primaries and caucuses really started going, IIRC. I remember Clinton making the "caucus delegates aren't real delegates" argument, but no one really bit. By the time of the convention he had it in the bag and that was that.

But the Sanders campaign from the start seemed to think he'd be ahead of Clinton (they assumed, incorrectly, that they would get an overwhelming percentage of young and minority voters) just a smidgen and the super delegates would go for her, thus undermining the will of the primary voters. But that hasn't been the case. Sanders has been behind for quite a bit and by a bit (over 300 delegates as of now if I'm reading 538 right) and now he's wanting the super delegates to do exactly what he was saying they shouldn't do, only they should do it in his favor. The guy has the scruples of a fake Coke dealer at Mardi Gras at this point.
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Re: The US Election 2016

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I'm struggling to find Sanders having said anything about wanting superdelegates to switch to voting for him. Can you link that for me?
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Re: The US Election 2016

Post by Flagg »

Gaidin wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Mrs. Clinton may not have held office during her husband's presidency and governorship, but she was assuredly "in politics."

There are people in American politics who can claim an experience advantage over Clinton, but just 'being a senator' is not, in my opinion, enough to justify such a claim.
Forgive me for calling bullshit on him trying to pretend her four years at State doesn't exist. Carry on. :wtf:
I don't know what his point there even is. The entire argument put forward by MJ is so stupid it's offensive. And there's no need to even fall back on her time as First Lady and 8 years as a Senator anymore. Since she was Secretary of State from 2009 to 2013 that argument is sooo 2008. :lol:
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Re: The US Election 2016

Post by Flagg »

Simon_Jester wrote:The argument that Sanders is an opportunist who wouldn't be with the Democrats if it weren't for his political ambitions...

Frankly, I agree with it but don't care. We have a two-party system; we should expect that there will be American politicians working with or in both parties for reasons of personal convenience, even if they have always preferred to walk their own path when possible. In a multiparty system this wouldn't be an issue- but we don't have one of those.

Heck, I wish Ralph Nader'd had the sense to do in 2000 what Sanders is doing now, instead of running in a third party. We might have been better off for it. Being too proud to see the difference between Bush and Gore did NOT end well.

Principles are important, but when they stop you from building coalitions to defeat an unprincipled opponent, they become a suicide pact.
If it were just that one thing, I wouldn't care, either. But there's this theme or vibe I'm getting that Sanders has more integrity than Clinton, and he's done things that show he doesn't. And worse, he is shaping up as a single issue candidate at a time when we need someone with a lot more depth. I don't want another Clinton for president, but I want all of the others less.
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Re: The US Election 2016

Post by Flagg »

Terralthra wrote:I'm struggling to find Sanders having said anything about wanting superdelegates to switch to voting for him. Can you link that for me?
I think it's here. He's basically starting to make a case for the Superdelegates to switch support from Clinton to him. And that was when he was behind by less than he is now. So when Clinton goes to the DNC ahead, Sanders may be in the position of doing something (wanting Superdelegates to overrule the primary voters) that he was demanding they not do when his campaign assumed he was going to be winning.
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Re: The US Election 2016

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Flagg wrote:Well there's This from Slate. I can't find an A+ from the NRA, so I retract that, but this is worse, IMO:
Slate wrote:None of these views are particularly shocking for a Vermont representative: Sanders’ deep-blue state has both high gun ownership and incredibly lax gun laws, and it’s perfectly logical for the senator to support his constituents’ firearms enthusiasm.
Vermont is a fairly rural place that fought as an independent power against the motherfucking British Empire in the 1770s because fuck you, United States, we're the Green Mountain Boys and we don't want to deal with their shit or your shit, either. Being anti-guns there is more or less political suicide.
Last edited by Raw Shark on 2016-03-17 08:18pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The US Election 2016

Post by Flagg »

Actually it's here at Politico. Sorry, tablets being a pain today.
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