the BREAKING NEWS debate thread

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-04-08 01:34am

God, 4th Brigade of the 4th ID is in theatre now... that was who I was with when I was active! I've got my old homies there and my new one from the local Engineering unit, working for 3rd ID! Man!

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-04-08 01:47am

Fucking A, you Brits just started a widespread spree of looting...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83362,00.html

At the Central Bank of Iraq, Basra residents streamed out carrying chairs, tables and carpets. A group of looters targeted schools and shops and one man walked with a chandelier under his arm. And at the Sheraton Hotel, people loaded chairs and sofas into horse-drawn carts. Some even wheeled the hotel's grand piano down a street.

have fun regaining law and order.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-04-08 01:52am

MKSheppard wrote: have fun regaining law and order.

Two whole goddamn weeks of gaining the trust of the residents of Basra
gone when the first Royal Marine inevitably shoots a looter.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-04-08 05:55am

Oh, joy, we're seeing the Shiites screaming, murdering, and generally causing mayhem...

The British commanders say it's a normal reaction, the population is venting off the decades of repression, things should be back to normal in a few days.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-04-08 06:30am

The best image of looting:

A guy towing a BOAT behind a bus!

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-04-08 06:32am

Warspite wrote:The best image of looting:

A guy towing a BOAT behind a bus!

I thought it was the guy towing a generator behind a SUV.....

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-04-08 06:32am

Warspite wrote: The British commanders say it's a normal reaction, the population is venting off the decades of repression, things should be back to normal in a few days.

Looting a fucking SCHOOL is a sign of venting?

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-04-08 07:32am

Stuart Mackey wrote:I thought it was the guy towing a generator behind a SUV.....

That one was the other day, this one happened today. (Sorry, no images.)

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-04-08 07:56am

MKSheppard wrote: Looting a fucking SCHOOL is a sign of venting?

Hey, I'm not the one using that term, it's the British commanders, 'kay?

The British commanders stance is, they consider themselves still in a combat zone, and can't apply law and order until they say.

Note that there aren't murders, arson, and general mayhem, like one would expect from a loot.
I saw a recent report from BBC, where a news reporter was next to a few Iraqis obviously looting, and it looked like business as usual, they went to their lives as if nothing was happening, and the reporter continued there, doing her job. (Remember the scenes from LA, a few years back? Totally different...)

Anyway, the looting may be "exagerated" by the media (no, I'm not saying the looting of schools isn't happening), I've saw footage from a convoy going around Basrah, and most of the populace (around 85%) was back to their normal life, like every other town in the Middle East.
After all, it's a million people's town, if a few hundreds are looting it may be considered there's looting all over the town, when percentage-wise it's negligelibe.

In the end, we have to wait for the next days, to see if this activity continues, or if it's finally stopped.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-04-08 09:59am

Law and order should be enforced- hell, the Allies made sure that looting in post-war Germany was strictly prohibited. I see no reason why the population should be allowed to go ape-shit her- this is just BS 'let's make the most out of the collapse of law and order', it's got nothing to do with 'we're repressed- let's nick that TV!'

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-08 10:07am

Vympel wrote:Law and order should be enforced- hell, the Allies made sure that looting in post-war Germany was strictly prohibited. I see no reason why the population should be allowed to go ape-shit her- this is just BS 'let's make the most out of the collapse of law and order', it's got nothing to do with 'we're repressed- let's nick that TV!'

Nor do I. But the British didn't really have the troops to both search and secure the city and chase down looters. But by now they should be able to spare them to fan out and guard public buildings and stores.

Too bad the palace they captured didn't have much in it, the looters could have been sent to clear it out.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-04-08 10:22am

Looters should be shot on sight. I've always felt that way, and I'm still reminded of the worthless individuals who looted after the distaster of Hurricane Andrew in S. Florida years ago. If looters feel that their acts of worthlessness may cost them their lives, then perhaps they will be less inclined to break into places and take was is not their's.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-04-08 05:36pm

It's a different mentality.

If your world has been turned upside down, why not try to make a damn buck off of it? It's not right - but then again, neither is the way with the world.

Looters should be curbed or punished, not shot on sight.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-04-09 01:31am

I tend to agree with the sentiments jegs expressed, but you just can't do it there, it'd be a PR catastrophe of epic proportions. The problem is that the Brits don't have enough troops to police Basra. Hell, it's a city of 2 million people, and short of martial law and strict curfews and a lot more troops, it's impossible to prevent the looting from happening. The Iraqis will have to fix things up themselves anyway, so just let it lie.

Edi

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-09 01:34am

I understand the feeling of anger at looters, but human life will always be worth more than property. Flame me if you will, but I see no ambiguity or doubt about that simple valuation.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-04-09 02:57am

And in some cases, like this one, the looters may be people who are taking things that had been denied them under the regime (the Shia'a were not exactly favored folks under Saddam) or folks looking to steal to survive; either taking supplies or taking things they could sell for supplies.

Of course many are just profiteers, too... the UK forces should announce a general curfew and laws for dealing with looters, and enforcing those laws, within a few hours. So far it looks like they are; sending tanks o guard warehouses and chasing down looters in the streets, etc...

I think this is different from Hurricane Andrew in that many of these people may actually be trying to survive rather than profiteer. Still, law needs to be introduced since it will be better for all concerned if the supplies they desperately need are distributed in a proper fashion.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-04-09 02:59am

There isn't, Mike. I understand that too, and it's not a question of actually shooting them on sight here, it's about capability of enforcement of law and order (with less lethal means), and that capability simply is not present.

Edi

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-09 08:10am

Warspite wrote:The best image of looting:

A guy towing a BOAT behind a bus!

With no trailer....

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-04-09 08:16am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Warspite wrote:The best image of looting:

A guy towing a BOAT behind a bus!
With no trailer....

The true ship of the desert?

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-04-09 09:09am

Edi wrote:There isn't, Mike. I understand that too, and it's not a question of actually shooting them on sight here, it's about capability of enforcement of law and order (with less lethal means), and that capability simply is not present.

Edi

I would support less lethal means IOT prevent looting and establish order, even to the point of firing warning shots or neutralizing targets with less-than-lethal shots (i.e. firing a shot into the target's leg), but I imagine you wouldn't have to neutralize too many before word quickly spread that looting is a more dangerous practice than it's worth.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-09 03:14pm

Anyone else seeing the shoot up A-10 on CNN right now? Thing must have a hundred plus bullet holes in it.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-04-09 04:58pm

theski first brought light to this story:

From this story:

He added that after examining the scene he concluded it was virtually impossible for the US tank to have fired on the 15th floor room.

"I have to say I rather doubt it and, having been underneath it and looking up now just before it got dark at the hole again in the side of the hotel, I still doubt it.

"For a start the damage to the hotel is superficial, it's only the masonry that's been torn off in a very small area, a tank shell would have done more damage I feel.

"Secondly the angle that the tank would have to have reached to hit that roof, it would more or less have had to have shot just round the corner and I don't think even the Americans have got those kinds of weapons."

Discuss.