Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

[streetad]

Good times for Scottish independence I guess?

It puts Sturgeon in a bit of a bind in the short term tbh.

They don't have the numbers to be confident of winning a second independence referendum. Their strength is somewhat exaggerated by FPTP and Brexit confusion.

55% of Scotland still voted for Unionist parties last night. And polling on independence has barely shifted since 2014.

She really wants to wait a few years in the expectation that Brexit will turn bad. But the pressure on her from the SNP core to call for one will be immense.

Potentially she will only call for a referendum in the expectation that it will be denied by Johnson.

[Vendetta]

His economic policies and willingness to criticize Israel are fair points. A candidate with his policies but not his baggage would work. It’s a shame Boris and the conservatives are going to fuck things up though

What baggage? You will have to look long and hard to find a person with less baggage than Corbyn.

Baggage for a politician is whatever the press decides is baggage. You'd have to look long and hard to find a person with more baggage than Boris "writing sexist and racist articles hiding in a fridge from all my illegitimate children" Johnson, but the media decided it didn't want that to be baggage so it got no column inches in any papers that old white people who reliably vote are ever going to read.

[His Divine Shadow]

I've already seen the british press has switched from corbyn is antisemitic to the labour leadership is antisemitic.

You'll see how much baggage the next leader will find himself saddled with. If he is jewish they will simply forget about antisemitism and become antisemites and nobody will bat an eye. Like they did with "Red" Ed Millband.

[His Divine Shadow]

Silver lining:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 44996.html

Every centrist MP who defected from Labour and the Tories looks to have lost their seat at the general election.

Over a dozen parliamentarians left the two major parties, most citing Brexit or antisemitism.

Some of the MPs stood as Liberal Democrats, others for the new party Change UK, and others as independents.

The three most high-profile Lib Dem defectors – Chuka Umunna, Sam Gyimah and Lucinia Berger – failed to win their London target seats, as did the other defectors.

In Altrincham and Sale West, former Labour MP Angela Smith came a distant third running as a Lib Dem, while former Tory Philip Lee came second in Wokingham. Sarah Wollaston lost to the Conservatives in Totnes.

Also I've gone over the last couple of years in my head and I cant help but feel Corbyn was right from the start but wasn't able to pursue the path he wanted. I remember when he whipped for article 50, and everyone complained and moaned about it.

He didn't want to come out for a 2nd referendum either but wanted to deliver a Labour brexit that's how he started out if you remember... I don't know how you people remember it but to me it looked like he was strong armed into a 2nd referendum by his own allies, everyone told him to go remain and/or 2nd referendum, but to me it looked like Corbyn himself would have instead focused around delivering a Labour Brexit instead of a 2nd referendum and this staying neutral stuff.

So it seems to me Labours mistake was not trying to deliver a Labour soft brexit instead. I believe Corbyns political instincts told him this and it's what he was going for initially, and contrary to some people who have bought the media narrative, Corbyn has shown to have good political instincts on plenty of occasions, better than his allies. But in this case his allies were rebelling too much against his too pro brexit stance.

[ray245]

Silver lining:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 44996.html

Every centrist MP who defected from Labour and the Tories looks to have lost their seat at the general election.

Over a dozen parliamentarians left the two major parties, most citing Brexit or antisemitism.

Some of the MPs stood as Liberal Democrats, others for the new party Change UK, and others as independents.

The three most high-profile Lib Dem defectors – Chuka Umunna, Sam Gyimah and Lucinia Berger – failed to win their London target seats, as did the other defectors.

In Altrincham and Sale West, former Labour MP Angela Smith came a distant third running as a Lib Dem, while former Tory Philip Lee came second in Wokingham. Sarah Wollaston lost to the Conservatives in Totnes.

Also I've gone over the last couple of years in my head and I cant help but feel Corbyn was right from the start but wasn't able to pursue the path he wanted. I remember when he whipped for article 50, and everyone complained and moaned about it.

He didn't want to come out for a 2nd referendum either but wanted to deliver a Labour brexit that's how he started out if you remember... I don't know how you people remember it but to me it looked like he was strong armed into a 2nd referendum by his own allies, everyone told him to go remain and/or 2nd referendum, but to me it looked like Corbyn himself would have instead focused around delivering a Labour Brexit instead of a 2nd referendum and this staying neutral stuff.

So it seems to me Labours mistake was not trying to deliver a Labour soft brexit instead. I believe Corbyns political instincts told him this and it's what he was going for initially, and contrary to some people who have bought the media narrative, Corbyn has shown to have good political instincts on plenty of occasions, better than his allies. But in this case his allies were rebelling too much against his too pro brexit stance.

If Labour took a clear pro-leave stance, they would have lost the support of the bigger metropolitan areas.

Fair enough.

Someone posted this but take it with a grain of salt as I can't find a good source for this.




If you tally up the Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, Green's vote, they would outnumber the Tory's votes as a whole. So the majority of the UK people didn't vote for Tory, the Tories just won under the First Past the Post system.

[Vendetta]

Someone posted this but take it with a grain of salt as I can't find a good source for this.

The numbers are p. acccurate.

Green got as many votes as all the non-Scottish regional parties put together, but only got one seat. Brexit Party got as many votes as all the Northern Irish parties put together but got none (for all the people who would say this is a good thing, they have consistently done more damage wagging the dog from outside of parliament than they would ever have done in it).

[His Divine Shadow]

If Labour took a clear pro-leave stance, they would have lost the support of the bigger metropolitan areas.

This is nothing we'll ever know for sure now. To paraphrase starglider, who would they vote for? The lib dems? They went all out on remain and got nothing for it, if they remained the same party in this alternate timeline I am not sure that remainers would not vote Labour to a greater extent than brexiteers would.

[ray245]

This is nothing we'll ever know for sure now. To paraphrase starglider, who would they vote for? The lib dems? They went all out on remain and got nothing for it, if they remained the same party in this alternate timeline I am not sure that remainers would not vote Labour to a greater extent than brexiteers would.

They could vote for the LIb Dems if Labour is too pro-leave for the urban voters, because the votes will not be split between the Lib Dems and Labour. Labour tried to have their cake and eat it, by giving people a very ambiguous position (second referendum), so people will not throw all their support behind the Lib Dems.

[His Divine Shadow]

That could happen, or what I said could happen. We'll never know...

[ray245]

That could happen, or what I said could happen. We'll never know...

True, but it explains the reason why Labour took the position they did. The Brexit referendum showed the Tories how to gain the Northern Labour strongholds. The Tories know the vast majority of their political base have already aligned with them and wanted to vote for Brexit, so they can feel very safe taking a strong pro-leave stance. They know they have no hope of gaining the big metropolitan seats, so they doubled down on their traditional support base and tried to take down Labour's red wall. The Tories know they will get enough seats from the more rural South no matter what, and gaining enough seats in the formerly-industrial North will be enough to gain a decent majority.

Labour on the other hand is built upon support from two power-base, the former industrial-towns ( which are pro-leave) and the big metropolitan cities ( which are pro-remain). They have a big contradiction between the two segments of their supporters, who might defect if one stance is taken at the expense of others. So no matter what, Labour will lose because the coalition they have built up over the years is destroyed.

A very cynical take on this election is to show how the rich can utterly fuck over the poor and still gain their support. Destroy the industries, wait for industrial decay to set in, then wait a few decades before those people living in the former industrial towns gets angry with another issue and they will gain the support in the end. It's a 30-35 years long wait, but it all worked out for the Tories in the long run.

[Elfdart]

His economic policies and willingness to criticize Israel are fair points. A candidate with his policies but not his baggage would work. It’s a shame Boris and the conservatives are going to fuck things up though

What baggage? You will have to look long and hard to find a person with less baggage than Corbyn.

And you will see any leftist politician replaces him will be bodied in exactly the same way. It has zero to do with the person and everything to do with the politics.

You want a politician who doesn't get treated like this? Give up on the idea of leftist policies.

Thank you for writing this so I don't have to. Corbyn didn't have any "baggage", which is why the Tories (aided and abetted in character assassination by the media and the scummier members of his own party) had to invent it. Any other Labour leader who advocates similar policies will get similar treatment. These ARE the same Tories who Jew-baited Ed Milliband a few years ago and he wasn't as far left as Corbyn.

Just as I write this, George Monbiot of The Guardian is whining about the results on Democracy Now!. Doesn't this asshole read his own paper? They helped stab Corbyn in the back and now their columnist is fretting about bloodstains on the floor. Oh, and he's still peddling the whole "Oh Noes! Labour Is Anti-Semitic!" line. Hey dumbass, you got what you wanted! You and your paper wanted a Johnson victory, did your damnedest to take down Corbyn, and can't wait 24 hours before showing buyer's remorse? Fuck you!


This reminds me of what Norman Finkelstein wrote about another Guardian hack by the name of Jonathan Freedland, who peddled the same garbage about Corbyn (boldface mine):

[W]hen my book, The Holocaust Industry, came out in 2000, Freedland wrote that I was ‘closer to the people who created the Holocaust than to those who suffered in it’. Although he appears to be, oh, so politically correct now, he didn’t find it inappropriate to suggest that I resembled the Nazis who gassed my family.

We appeared on a television program together. Before the program, he approached me to shake my hand. When I refused, he reacted in stunned silence. Why wouldn’t I shake his hand? He couldn’t comprehend it. It tells you something about these dull-witted creeps. The smears, the slanders – for them, it’s all in a day’s work. Why should anyone get agitated? Later, on the program, it was pointed out that the Guardian, where he worked, had serialised The Holocaust Industry across two issues. He was asked by the presenter, if my book was the equivalent of Mein Kampf, would he resign from the paper? Of course not. Didn’t the presenter get that it’s all a game?

It also reminds me of The Guardian's disgraceful support of last month's Nazi putsch in Bolivia. They had the gall to clutch their New Labour pearls when the new regime's first act was to grant preemptive amnesty to soldiers who torture or murder the Untermenschen, which they did with gusto.

Labour has faced the same claims of anti-Semitism as the Conservatives have of Islamophobia- disturbingly it mirrors the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Except that the charges of anti-Muslim bigotry against Johnson are true and the charges of anti-Semitism against Corbyn are a Goebbelian lie. This leaves aside the fact that anti-Jewish bigotry is mostly taboo after Nuremberg, while baiting Muslims isn't. Britain isn't in the business of bombing, shooting or torturing Jews but they are in the business of doing all that and worse to Muslims.

IMO this will be as bad for the UK as Trump has been for the US, if not worse.

Our friends in the UK are in for a real treat over the next five years. They will soon experience the joys of rationing insulin and other life-saving drugs, going deep into debt after going to the hospital and of course having to beg on social media for money to pay the medical bills of sick, injured or dying relatives. We Americans are numb to this sort of thing, but for Britons it's going to be a real punch in the gut.

[Vendetta]

Good times for Scottish independence I guess?

It puts Sturgeon in a bit of a bind in the short term tbh.

They don't have the numbers to be confident of winning a second independence referendum. Their strength is somewhat exaggerated by FPTP and Brexit confusion.

55% of Scotland still voted for Unionist parties last night. And polling on independence has barely shifted since 2014.

She really wants to wait a few years in the expectation that Brexit will turn bad. But the pressure on her from the SNP core to call for one will be immense.

Potentially she will only call for a referendum in the expectation that it will be denied by Johnson.

On the other hand, Mary Lou MacDonald has started talking about an Irish Unity referendum, which the government is required to carry out under the terms of the GFA if there's a reasonable chance it would succeed both in both the North and the Republic.

This is based not just on the status of NI and the border on the island of Ireland during Brexit but also because the SDLP and Sinn Fein got more votes and seats than the DUP. So there's a strong case that the North may be achieving a tipping point in favour of reunification.

And if that shoe drops, then Scotland will not be far behind.

[ray245]

Our friends in the UK are in for a real treat over the next five years. They will soon experience the joys of rationing insulin and other life-saving drugs, going deep into debt after going to the hospital and of course having to beg on social media for money to pay the medical bills of sick, injured or dying relatives. We Americans are numb to this sort of thing, but for Britons it's going to be a real punch in the gut.

The Tories won't be so quick to implement it. They know they will need to unravel the system slowly bit by bit.

[madd0ct0r]

Britain receiving the payback for imperial arrogance and centuries of imperialism, with Brexit as such possibly leading to a direct dismemberment of the UK.

Well, well. If people want to rule the waves, rule the waves they will.

yes, but as a member of the privelaged class who beenfited from that wealth, I am unlikely to be directly effected by the consquences. Worse case I shall simply emigrate again.

there is no justice here, only 'you've been framed, self mutilation for a fiver edition'.

[Coop D'etat]

Now that the votes are in, can we dispense with the magical thinking that all the opinion polls were wrong and that Corbyn was a popular and effective leader? Because he just lead his party into a humiliating and historic total defeat against a party that's already been in power for 10 years. The manifesto might have been popular but the leadership transparently was not and that matters a lot more.

[Starglider]

The vote clearly shows that Corbyn's dithering, noncommital, pathetic have-it-both-ways stance on Brexit succeeded in alienating both remain and leave voters:



but losing remain voters to the liberals was only one third as damaging (half as damaging per vote and smaller swing) as losing leave voters to the direct competition, even without considering the possibility of a coalition government; and they probably would've been easier to regain in the next election. Idiocy, although probably for the best given the manifesto this time around. It will be interesting to see where they go from here, as a resurgence of New Labour will only address the votes lost (mostly to remainers) in wealthier southern areas, it won't do anything to help (and may actually hinder) trying to get their old northern / working class base back.

[Xisiqomelir]

I tend to oppose secession on principle, both because of my contempt for nationalism in general and because I prefer working to reform a country rather than abandon it to create multiple weaker, more isolated nations.

Bro, wait, what? You don't like imperialist superpowers and you don't like weak, isolated nations? Do you want a world full of Frances?

On the independence point, how do you feel about:

• Quebec

• Catalonia

• Jaffna

• Kurdistan

• Transnistria

?

[The Romulan Republic]

I tend to oppose secession on principle, both because of my contempt for nationalism in general and because I prefer working to reform a country rather than abandon it to create multiple weaker, more isolated nations.

Bro, wait, what? You don't like imperialist superpowers and you don't like weak, isolated nations? Do you want a world full of Frances?

I am an internationalist/political (as opposed to corporate) globalist. I want a more unified planet.

I reject the false dichotomy of "imperialist superpower or isolationist nationalism".

On the independence point, how do you feel about:

• Quebec

Idiotic, selfish, and hypocritical. Quebec faces no great persecution (in fact it enjoys a disproportionate influence and a number of benefits other provinces do not), and the secession movement basically seeks to tear Canada apart over xenophobic nationalism and a three hundred year old grudge that has very little relevance to the modern world. I also wonder whether the Quebec separtists would show any regard for the people in their territory who do not want to leave Canada, or at least don't want to be part of Quebec. Based on their past track record, I'm guessing no.

• Catalonia

I don't like the idea in theory, I think it will set a bad precedent, though I also fault Spain's heavy-handed response for needlessly making the situation worse. Basically, a plague on both their houses.

• Jaffna

Not familiar enough with it to comment.

• Kurdistan

While I support greater unity in principle, the region is such a clusterfuck that letting the Kurds have their own region is probably the lesser evil, especially since they seem to be one of the few factions in the Middle East that has their shit relatively together. Trump's backstab wrt Turkey was also an utterly shameful way to treat an ally against ISIS.

• Transnistria

?

I don't know enough about it to comment meaningfully.

[The Romulan Republic]

https://globalnews.ca/news/6295452/move ... -election/

With the U.K. Tories scoring a majority win and Prime Minister Boris Johnson vowing to get Brexit done, it seems like some Britons are seeking greener — or colder — pastures.

Searches in the U.K. for ‘moving to Canada’ spiked significantly on Dec. 12, according to Google.

Johnson campaigned on a “get Brexit done” slogan. The result for Thursday’s election was the Conservative Party’s strongest showing since Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s, with 365 Tory MPs elected to the 650-seat House of Commons.

Johnson called the election result “a powerful new mandate” to end three years of Brexit uncertainty and move forward with the country’s long-stalled deal to leave the European Union.

It’s not the first time residents of another country have set their eyes on Canada in the aftermath of a polarizing election.

In March 2016, Google searches for moving to Canada spiked after Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton moved closer to becoming their respective parties’ presidential candidates on Super Tuesday.

After the U.S. election in 2016, American applications to universities in Canada also increased.

Canada isn’t the only contender for Britons upset with five more years of a Conservative government.

Online interest for ‘move to Scotland’ also saw a similar spike on Dec. 12. So did ‘move to Denmark’ and ‘move to France.’

In 2017, there were 5,293 people from the U.K. and its overseas territories admitted as permanent residents of Canada, according to data posted online by Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship Canada (IRCC).

That same year, Canada admitted more than 286,000 permanent residents, with more than half of them (56 per cent) granted entry under economic programs. The U.K. was one of the top 10 source countries in 2017.

Information on how to immigrate to Canada can be found here.

Looks like we're not just a popular option for American liberals.

[His Divine Shadow]

It does say something about remainers, they're the traveling kind, who pick up and move easily, wearing a country like a coat. Not like the working brexit classes who might live in the same aera for generations and for whom moving isn't even possible a lot of the time.

[His Divine Shadow]

The vote clearly shows that Corbyn's dithering, noncommital, pathetic have-it-both-ways stance on Brexit succeeded in alienating both remain and leave voters:

How easily you forget Corbyns stance was getting brexit done as well. Did you forget that his hand was forced, by his allies who all were remainers and the membership he granted power who voted for this policy. If Corbyn had been Stalin and a strongman (while still weak and effeminate, of course) then he would have continued on the same path as he staked out when he three line whipped for article 50 and brought the UK out of the EU.

https://www.thefullbrexit.com/why-labour-lost

Can't pin this particular policy on Corbyn, pin it on the labour membership and his allies, inner city fart huffing and ignoring the labour heartlands, which Corbyn did not want to.

[The Romulan Republic]

The vote clearly shows that Corbyn's dithering, noncommital, pathetic have-it-both-ways stance on Brexit succeeded in alienating both remain and leave voters:

How easily you forget Corbyns stance was getting brexit done as well. Did you forget that his hand was forced, by his allies who all were remainers and the membership he granted power who voted for this policy. If Corbyn had been Stalin and a strongman (while still weak and effeminate, of course) then he would have continued on the same path as he staked out when he three line whipped for article 50 and brought the UK out of the EU.

https://www.thefullbrexit.com/why-labour-lost

Can't pin this particular policy on Corbyn, pin it on the labour membership and his allies, inner city fart huffing and ignoring the labour heartlands, which Corbyn did not want to.

Which is why I'm not heartbroken over Corbyn's downfall.

He's just another stripe of xenophobic isolationist, when you get down to it. The Lib Dems are the only party that would hold much appeal to me, were I a UK voter. A pity they weren't even in the running.

[His Divine Shadow]

I'd like to see evidence for Corbyn being the least bit xenophobic.

And we did see how much appeal the Lib Dems held. Wasn't much, does seem your type of politics has reached the end of the road to me.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'd like to see evidence for Corbyn being the least bit xenophobic.

Supporting Brexit?

And we did see how much appeal the Lib Dems held. Wasn't much, does seem your type of politics has reached the end of the road to me.

I expect your idea of "my type of politics" is very different from what it actually is. But if the desire for a more united, multicultural world and opposition to xenophobia has indeed reached the end of the road, its a dismal and brutal future indeed that we have to look forward to.

Also, that's some mighty big talk from a supporter of the guy who just also lost to Boris Johnson.

Face it, Corbyn's done. He had his shot. He lost. Maybe that's not entirely on him, but it doesn't change the fact that he lost, and when you lose at that level, playing for those stakes, you seldom get a second try. Time to find a new champion.

[His Divine Shadow]

Brexit is not an inherently xenophobic position. There are reasons one does not want to be in the EU that are not racist or xenophobic.

And face what? Corbyns done and stepping down, who is questioning this?