Massive attacks against trains in Spain/Madrid

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-12 06:49pm

If I may say so it seems like some people are doing their damnedest to blame this on Eta, even though the more evidence we get, the more it looks like alQaeda. Why is this?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-03-12 06:50pm

Its times like this I'm glad I read spanish fluently. Not so much Olrik's portugese, though

And yes, its sad how little this is getting covered.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-03-12 06:51pm

They want to blame it on ETA because if it was them, this is a lot easier to deal with.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-12 06:54pm

Joe wrote:If I may say so it seems like some people are doing their damnedest to blame this on Eta, even though the more evidence we get, the more it looks like alQaeda. Why is this?

I am going to be cynical, but it is nonetheless a bit true.

governmental elections sunday.

ETA being the culprit = very "good" for the current PP government.

alqaeda being the culprit = "good" for the opposition.

Of course this is for the most part badmouthing. I don't think they were lying when they said the police intercepted eta vans full of explosives in route to Madrid, in the last weeks.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-03-12 06:56pm

Joe wrote:If I may say so it seems like some people are doing their damnedest to blame this on Eta, even though the more evidence we get, the more it looks like alQaeda. Why is this?

The Spanish government supported the Iraq War. Some people are bound to say that was the cause for the attack, if it was Al Quada. This ignores the fact that they've targeted places like Turkey that (as I recall), refused to let coaltion troops use facilities during the war.

If its Al Qaeda some people will blame the goverment. If it's Eta, then its simply the usual suspects for attack's in Spain. Bad, but the goverment will likely get off a bit more lightly.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-12 07:02pm

Joe wrote:Yes, this hasn't been covered particularly well in the American media, apparently Martha Stewart and John Kerry's latest whine is bigger news than an ally being attacked.

This morning, gay-marriage news was easily eclipsing the bomb coverage on cnn.com, which says a lot about the self-absorbed face Americans project to the world.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-03-12 07:05pm

I remember the fuss on one forum I frequent when the BBC gave live coverage to an earthquake in India over Saddam's statue falling. Nobody here complained, but a lot of American members were angry that the BBC ignored such a"major" event to cover some earthquake. -_-

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-12 07:06pm

ABC News ran a 20 minute story about (wait for it) Michael Jackson last night and also a completely irrelevant early 90s country music singer, Billy Ray Cyrus. Even my dad, who doesn't really pay much attention to international affairs, was getting angry.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-03-12 07:10pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Joe wrote:Yes, this hasn't been covered particularly well in the American media, apparently Martha Stewart and John Kerry's latest whine is bigger news than an ally being attacked.
This morning, gay-marriage news was easily eclipsing the bomb coverage on cnn.com, which says a lot about the self-absorbed face Americans project to the world.

Tell me about it. This is not only extremely embarrassing, it throws into sharp relief the fact that even two and a half years later, 9/11 stuff still gets at least a column on page A1 of any major American broadsheet.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-03-12 07:16pm

It's disgraceful the way the American media has been fucking ignoring this. Not to mention, nobody with a brain gives a flying fuck about the things that are being covered in favor of real news.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-03-12 07:41pm

RedImperator wrote:It's disgraceful the way the American media has been fucking ignoring this. Not to mention, nobody with a brain gives a flying fuck about the things that are being covered in favor of real news.

I wasn't going to comment on this because I haven't got access to the full US media, but I did notice it being the front page stuff of every UK paper, tabloid and broadsheet and on the frontpages of most Net based agencies too. The thread about this at SB.com isn't even near 2 full pages yet.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-03-12 07:49pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote: The thread about this at SB.com isn't even near 2 full pages yet.

Same over on Animenation. It has to be said though that the Serious Discussion forum only caters for a minority of the members.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-03-12 07:55pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Fuck, they even say there were numerous, albeit, failed or aborted attempts in the past months and some sources see ETA and al-Qaeda as linking up on some jobs, but I call bullshit on that.

As for nuke safety, that's no problem, it's losing stuff that's the problem. The cargo pods used to transport stuff from Sellafield and Springfield nuclear plants and processing stations in the UK routinely have multiple carriage freight trains going over 100mph rammed into them and suffer not a scratch.

There's some impressive footage of the US version being hit broadside by a rocket propelled 95mph locomotive (a speed most locomotives can't reach even without a train behind them) , flung through the air, and then landing without damage. They also took one down to Aberdeen Proving Ground and proceed to repeatedly hit it with LAW's, Dragoons and TOW missiles, none of which breached it.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-12 08:01pm

translation from www.publico.pt (take that, phong!) wrote:a phone call for the independentista periodical Basque "Gara", "any responsibility" in the attempted against ones of yesterday in Madrid, that they had provoked 199 dead. This declaration joins it other indications that point with respect to the possibility of the attack not to have been of the authorship of the armed group. According to a source of that daily one, cited for the international agencies, the phone call was made by an interlocutor anónimo that it said to speak on behalf of the ETA. "organization ETA does not have any responsibility in the attempted against ones of thursday", affirmed the author of the call, cited for the periodical. The "Gara" is the habitual canal of communication of the organization etarra, wants to launch alerts for the attempted against imminence of one, wants to demand previous shares. Urged to comment this declaration, also communicated to the public television of the Basque Country, the Ministry of the Spanish Interior said "not to be to the chain" of the phone call. Unbroken joined bomb "opens new tracks of inquiry" Minutes before being known this declaration, the minister of the Spanish Interior, Angel Acebes, admitted that the discovery of a bomb for blowing up, in the night of yesterday, "opened new tracks in the inquiry to the attempted against ones". according to authorities, the bomb was hidden in a removed knapsack of the convoy that blew up together to the station of El Pozo, about 07h42 of yesterday. The composition was reached by two explosions, provoking a total of 67 died and hundreds of wounded. After to have been discovered the content of the knapsack, the bomb was carried to a zone protecting and desactivada by the connoisseurs of the Spanish policy. Acebes confirmed the information of the Cadena radio To be, that this morning notified that the bomb was strengthened for small metal pieces (that when blowing up they are projectados with great violence) and was on for a copper detonator to one telemóvel equipped with timer. according to station, citing a source of the antiterrorist policy, "this is not the habitually used type of bomb for the ETA", but a bomb "of other on terrorist groups to the islamismo". The same information is advanced for the edition online of the daily "El Country", that it underlines the fact of the joined copper detonator to be, while the used bombs for the ETA use aluminum wires habitually. The source still indicates that the used dynamite in the bomb is of Spanish production and not titadine, normally used an industrial explosive in the shares etarras. Also the form as the device was mounted does not coincide with the method of the organization, adds the periodical. Still thus, Acebes underlines that the "way operandi" of the attempted against ones is not incompatible with other shares demanded for the terrorist organization. In this direction, "the main line of inquiry continues to be the ETA, argued the minister, adding that" it does not have no fiável data "that point with respect to the" responsibility of a terrorist group of Islamic origin ".

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-03-12 08:02pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Fuck, they even say there were numerous, albeit, failed or aborted attempts in the past months and some sources see ETA and al-Qaeda as linking up on some jobs, but I call bullshit on that.

As for nuke safety, that's no problem, it's losing stuff that's the problem. The cargo pods used to transport stuff from Sellafield and Springfield nuclear plants and processing stations in the UK routinely have multiple carriage freight trains going over 100mph rammed into them and suffer not a scratch.

There's some impressive footage of the US version being hit broadside by a rocket propelled 95mph locomotive (a speed most locomotives can't reach even without a train behind them) , flung through the air, and then landing without damage. They also took one down to Aberdeen Proving Ground and proceed to repeatedly hit it with LAW's, Dragoons and TOW missiles, none of which breached it.

Exactly. The only way to get past the concrete and DU/steel shell is to have a hell of a lot of high explosive placed strategically around the thing and do a good job of it too.

There's a Spooks (MI-5 in the US, annoyingly with that hyphen which shouldn't be there) episode where a rogue army colonel forms a plan to steal one of these toxic waste containers and transports it into the centre of London because he's pissed at how the gov't has treated his force (obviously not a happy bunny with the SA-80A2 either).

Thing is, the gov't knows he can't get into it, but the guy only had it on a truck full of C4 and sitting in the middile of the city's largest oil refinery. That would've been nasty, but don't worry about al-Qaeda even thinking up that.

I'd love to know what they have planned though, if only so we can catch them in the act.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-12 09:40pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
RedImperator wrote:It's disgraceful the way the American media has been fucking ignoring this. Not to mention, nobody with a brain gives a flying fuck about the things that are being covered in favor of real news.
I wasn't going to comment on this because I haven't got access to the full US media, but I did notice it being the front page stuff of every UK paper, tabloid and broadsheet and on the frontpages of most Net based agencies too. The thread about this at SB.com isn't even near 2 full pages yet.

The bombing was on the front page of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution this morning.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2004-03-12 10:04pm

To give Fox news some credit they ran it as hard or harder then CNN or the BBC at first.... My local paper Charleston Post ran it front page today...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-03-12 11:48pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
There's a Spooks (MI-5 in the US, annoyingly with that hyphen which shouldn't be there) episode where a rogue army colonel forms a plan to steal one of these toxic waste containers and transports it into the centre of London because he's pissed at how the gov't has treated his force (obviously not a happy bunny with the SA-80A2 either).

Thing is, the gov't knows he can't get into it, but the guy only had it on a truck full of C4 and sitting in the middile of the city's largest oil refinery. That would've been nasty, but don't worry about al-Qaeda even thinking up that.

Sounds like stupid writing; those containers weigh more than main battle tanks and require transporting railcars or trucks of matching capacity (and speed, 15mph for the truck). You're not going to smuggle such a thing into an oil refinery, or more then fifty feet from where it was stolen without bringing down a mighty hellstorm of police and special forces onto you.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-13 12:15am

You know, it's easy to pillory the people who claim that this is all the US's fault.

However, if they were smarter, then instead of blaming the US for making this happen, they could point out that the invasion of Iraq was sold to us partly on the notion that it would somehow cripple Al-Quaeda's ability to pull off scores like this. Remember all of the people who said that the invasion of Iraq would "cut off Al-Quaeda's financing" and "cripple their ability to conduct terrorist operations?"

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-03-13 12:20am

The explosives seem to be Spanish-made:

CNN Link

The explosive used came from inside Spain and is similar to explosives used in previous attacks by ETA, according to Glenn Schoen, a security analyst who has seen the latest police analysis.

On the other hand, the copper detonators used in the backpack bombs were more sophisticated than the aluminum detonators previously used in bombs linked to ETA, said Schoen, who has worked with Spanish police on train security.

The preliminary analysis determined the explosive is a type of dynamite called ECO, manufactured in Spain and normally used in construction and mining, Schoen said

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-13 12:25am

fgalkin wrote:The explosives seem to be Spanish-made:

Not surprising. It's more difficult to smuggle explosives and an operative into the country than to simply get an operative into the country.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-03-13 12:27am

Joe wrote:The bombing was on the front page of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution this morning.

It was front and center on the front page of the St. Petersburg Times and on the top-right of the Wall Street Journal.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-03-13 12:30am

It was on the front page of almost every paper I've seen today while in Manhattan.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Captain tycho · Post by **Captain tycho** » 2004-03-13 12:44am

Wow..just..wow.

I give my sincere condolences to those who have have lost family members .

Rest in peace.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-03-13 01:16am

Iceberg wrote:Tell me about it. This is not only extremely embarrassing, it throws into sharp relief the fact that even two and a half years later, 9/11 stuff still gets at least a column on page A1 of any major American broadsheet.

I haven't been checking major TV news, but he only cable news on I've walked by and heard Madrid stuff on is FOX News, sadly.