Egyptians protesting across the country

[Dartzap]

BBC world affairs editor John Simpson, in Tahrir Square, says: "I am among a group of Mubarak supporters. They have been preparing all sorts of weapons - pulling down iron railings, breaking up paving stones - and using them against anti-government protesters. There has been a kind of counter-attack by the pro-Mubarak groups, who are determined to force the remaining protesters out of the square. The soldiers are right here, sitting on their tanks, looking on and occasionally taking shelter, but are not trying to intervene. People know the army is not going to fire on either side, so their presence is not intimidating. The Mubarak supporters are forcing their way into the square through all the main entrances, and trying to force out the protesters gathered there."

Beeb

Yeah, this is going to turn into a bloodbath fairly rapidly.....

[Prannon]

I'm watching Al-Jazeera English right now via this link. The clashes have been going on for three hours and there has been an ebb and flow to the "front lines" as each side throws rocks at each other. It's been nasty and it just doesn't seem to want to end. The army isn't doing anything and there aren't any emergency response to the clashes at all.

[FSTargetDrone]

WARNING! LARGE IMAGES

<snip>

My dad is the one with the white hair.

Man, I'm sure I don't have to tell you (or your parents) this, but because I will feel better if I do, please stress to your parents and anyone else you are in contact with over there: "be careful who you point a camera at." I'm sure they will be fine, but all you need is for some hothead to see a lens aimed at him and it could set him off.

[Big Orange]

I attended a lecture by Jonas Haertle from the UN about the Global Compact and the PRiME program (our school signed on). He mentioned that democracy is not necessarily the expected outcome of these revolutions. Democracy needs institutions and nurturing. Basically, as long as people's needs and demands are met, the form of government doesn't matter as much. He pointed to China as an example of an autocratic regime that is improving the standard of living and quality of life for its people without being a democracy. So while it is possible for a democratic form of government to be an outcome, we should not necessarily expect it over any other form. At the end of the day, if the people of Egypt are satisfied that their needs have been met, they will be satisfied with whatever form of government is in power.

I agree that an economically competent/populalist and comparatively benign dictatorship is better than a dysfunctional, immature democracy that's been rendered almost meaningless when the economy gets even more deformed/destroyed by a small international clique of mad, stupid billionaires who are now even wearing down the better developed Western democracies. But it gets worse when a dictatorship has deregulated the economy, like the deposed President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali regime in Tunisia had done, stoking up discontent amongst unemployed people on or below the poverty line.

And I agree that the atmosphere on the streets has gotten noticeably a lot less festive now, with weary and ill tempered looking soldiers pulling protestors off armoured vehicles, etc. And with many of the dams suddenly breaking across the Southern/Eastern Mediterranean, I wonder if the dominos are falling in the direction of Iberia or Italy...

[Simon_Jester]

What do you mean 'dominos', Orange?

Portugal, Spain, and Italy are democracies; there are viable channels for the public to compel the government to stop doing something it dislikes without having to go to such lengths. The problems they face are different, and the fact that they aren't putting up with thirty-year dictators will change the reaction. I don't think this kind of thing can cross the Med; the phenomenon has a lot to do with the fact that the north and south shores of the Med are different.

I attended a lecture by Jonas Haertle from the UN about the Global Compact and the PRiME program (our school signed on). He mentioned that democracy is not necessarily the expected outcome of these revolutions. Democracy needs institutions and nurturing. Basically, as long as people's needs and demands are met, the form of government doesn't matter as much. He pointed to China as an example of an autocratic regime that is improving the standard of living and quality of life for its people without being a democracy. So while it is possible for a democratic form of government to be an outcome, we should not necessarily expect it over any other form. At the end of the day, if the people of Egypt are satisfied that their needs have been met, they will be satisfied with whatever form of government is in power.

What matters, I think, is that the government actually keeps it in their heads that they need to do something to maintain the well-being of the people. That civilization isn't something that "just happens," and that they can't keep it happening by sitting on top and skimming off a few percent to hand to their cronies.

The Chinese autocrats understand this; the old Soviets did too, though the modern Russian oligarchic-pseudodemocracy generally doesn't. Around the world, some dictators get it, others don't. Nearly all democratic governments do... but democracy isn't a prerequisite for that.

The danger is, as Stas points out, that if Mubarak is allowed to get off the hook this way, step down from power peaceably and transfer it to another person who is, basically, King Mubarak II... it defeats the purpose of the demonstrations, and yet may appease said demonstrators enough that they give the new guy a five or ten-year honeymoon to run Egypt into the ground before doing anything about it.

[Broomstick]

Guys, if there's one thing that has been made EXTREMELY clear to me during this whole crisis, both talking to my father and in reading articles, it's that the Egyptians aren't angry at foreigners in general or the United States in particular. Yes, El Baradei came out and said something about Obama not taking sides. Even though, in the same sentence, he said that he had great respect for the man.

Well, yeah, it can be good thing if a global superpower takes your side in a dispute but it sounds like (from what I've read) that the Egyptians understand why other nations would rather not take one side or the other in this matter.

I don't know how much clearer you can get, and this is what my father, who lives in Egypt, is telling me. The articles that are reporting about how the tear gas canisters and jets and tanks were all made in the US or assembled with US parts are all missing the point, chasing after red herrings. Yeah...duh...OF COURSE they are! The US has been supplying Egypt for years! This isn't some sort of war profiteering that the US is suddenly doing on the spot, more like what the Egyptians are using simply because...that's all they've been getting for decades.

I'm sure most Egyptians have long been aware that their government buys stuff from the US, or is given stuff by the US. Thing is, you get reporters showing up for the "hot story" on a short deadline who are looking for something, anything, that will make attention-grabbing headlines. The whole "tear gas canisters are made in the US!" story angle seems to have been dropped in the past couple days because, really, it's not news and not a story.

They care that Mubarak has been abusing them and that he gets out as soon as possible.

That does seem to be the bottom line here.

[Big Orange]

What do you mean 'dominos', Orange?

Portugal, Spain, and Italy are democracies; there are viable channels for the public to compel the government to stop doing something it dislikes without having to go to such lengths. The problems they face are different, and the fact that they aren't putting up with thirty-year dictators will change the reaction. I don't think this kind of thing can cross the Med; the phenomenon has a lot to do with the fact that the north and south shores of the Med are different.

They're legitimate democracies and have far less brutal governments, with no secret police who have no compunction of sticking people's dicks into the power mains, nor riot police and military infantrymen more likely to use live ammunition against protestors, etc. However countries like Italy still have the same fundamental problem of high youth unemployment, the Devil makes work of idle thumbs, but their public discontent will more resemble Greece's than Egypt's.

Maybe I'm going OTT about the dominos falling, but there does seem to be growing discontent amongst millions of people, and it flared up more violenly in Egypt where fall more people fall below the grinding poverty line and felt the imposed economic austerity much more keenly, hitting them in their stomachs. And there may be trouble ahead for the UK and the ConDems when even the traditionally Torytard supporting, rightwing tub thumping Daily Mail claims only a paltry 3% of the 200, 000 jobs created in the UK were permanent and this is in light of Tories going through the usual motions of decrying unions, while taking a sledge hammer to the UK public sector (a band aid in many UK unemployment black spots).

[Zaune]

What Mubarak doesn't seem to understand is that the Egyptian people didn't want to wait until September, they have in a sense called a special election this week and Mubarak has been "voted" out of office. They want him gone. Period.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but do they have any consensus on who and what they want to replace him with yet? If Murabak goes now he's going to leave behind one hell of a power vacuum, and I needn't remind anyone of the consequences of ousting a dictator without giving some thought to what to do next.

[Broomstick]

I am not familiar enough with the details of the Egyptian power structure and politics to have an intelligent answer to that. I just hope this winds up with a better life for the average Egyptian when the dust settles.

[Big Orange]

Stas Bush decried someone else from the remains of the ruined Mubarak regime will take his place, and while this replacement leader would likely be a crook himself, he may be less of crook and more importantly stop Egypt from spiralling deeper into anarchy and be more inclined to beneficial political/economic reforms. A compromise.

[Seggybop]

Pro-Mubarak mobs are now attacking reporters-- Anderson Cooper, of all people, got beaten up.

Twitter reports continue to claim that the Pro-Mubarak groups are composed of police (one was caught one and they posted what they claim is the guy's police ID) and employees of government-owned corporations being paid to protest.

Even worse, they've apparently begun tossing Molotov cocktails and rocks at the anti-Mubarak people and the Egyptian Museum. [ALL OF MY RAAAGE]

mubarak thugs are throwing molotov cocktail bombs on the egyptian museum !!! eyewitness just called me !!!

Just left Tahrir Sq. Soldier told us we would not be allowed back in. Meanwhile it it being encircled by pro-govt supporters/thugs #jan25

One of Mobarak thugs caught, turns out he is a police officer.Yasin Ali Mohamed Ali, from 10th of Ramadan police station. ID 89015191 #Jan25

TRUSTED SOURCE RT @TravellerW: Pro-Mubarak thugs are police. This is POLICE MASSACRING CIVILIANS, make no mistake #Egypt #Jan25

[Broomstick]

So the old power elite decided not to go quietly. Such a pity.

[weemadando]

I'd heard about some looting of the Museum earlier in the week. For a while the Beeb report had me chuckling because the curator was talking about how the part that they broke into was the gift shop and they'd looted that assuming that they were genuine wares apparently. But then he went on to say that another section had been looted where they had apparently smashed EVERYTHING while trying to find hidden gold.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

And if it turns out, that like it was suspected, that pro-Mubarak groups were doing this in an effort to discredit...


Double-FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU


Then again, having followed pretty closely (as best you can as a civilian) the international illegal antiquities trade since the debacles of Iraq, it wouldn't surprise me if there were some "to order" looters involved in this given the brilliant distractions available now.

[ShadowDragon8685]

It sounds like the military needs to start guarding museums and such-like, and firmly rebuking these "pro-Mukbarak protesters" if they want to keep things orderly, or else this could turn very, very disorderly very soon.

[Zaune]

It sounds like the military needs to start guarding museums and such-like, and firmly rebuking these "pro-Mukbarak protesters" if they want to keep things orderly, or else this could turn very, very disorderly very soon.

I'm not sure they can "firmly rebuke" the security forces, which if Mubarak follows tin-pot dictator SOPs have plenty of firepower of their own, without making a bad situation worse. And do they even have any proper riot equipment?

[ShadowDragon8685]

It sounds like the military needs to start guarding museums and such-like, and firmly rebuking these "pro-Mukbarak protesters" if they want to keep things orderly, or else this could turn very, very disorderly very soon.

I'm not sure they can "firmly rebuke" the security forces, which if Mubarak follows tin-pot dictator SOPs have plenty of firepower of their own, without making a bad situation worse. And do they even have any proper riot equipment?

I was thinking more akin to what they did earlier, what with interposing their heavily armored vehicles between the crowds and police and saying "we're not letting you guys get into fighting range."

[Edward Yee]

According to an Egyptian member of Something Awful (living in a Cairo suburb about ten kilometers from Tahrir Square) who claims to have been protesting on Friday and Tuesday and is planning to join again this Thursday and Friday, a "[f]ormer Mubarak adviser, NDP member and Shura council (upper house of parliament) member" admitted to NDP "businessmen" staging the pro-Mubarak protests, with a mix of police and "unemployed thugs" paid in the area of $30-100/day.

According to him Mubarak didn't just pull the police from the streets to leave a security vacuum, but "let loose prisoners everywhere" too.

Apparently he's lost three friends (one distant) in Egypt to the violence already, two seemingly during the Internet blackout and one today to suicide ("sick of Egypt").

As for the military situation:

From what I've heard from military officers, there's 2 schisms in the military institution in Egypt right now. There's a horizontal schism between the higher ranking officers and the middle and lower officers, and a vertical schism between the top brass.

The mid/lower officers in Cairo basically got orders to fire on the protesters in Tahrir square and end the protest immediately, I believe sometime after midnight on Monday. The mid/lower officers on the ground completely refused to obey this order, and then some time later the same night another order from high command came saying "Shooting at demonstrators is completely forbidden", but other contradictory orders followed throughout the day. This means there is or was possibly a disagreement within the ranks of the top leaders. But what is certain is that the middle/lower officers who were mostly trained in the U.S refused direct orders to fire on the protesters.

He pointed out by the way that Hosni Mubarak did not mention, much less exclude from the upcoming election, his son Gamal in his speech.

Supposedly both CNN (besides Anderson Cooper?) and even FOX teams have been confronted by pro-Mubarak people...

[spartasman]

Anderson Cooper was assaulted and punched repeatedly in the head. Part of me is laughing, as it seems that every time a natural disaster or major incident takes place, Cooper is there trying to soak up ratings; while the other part of me is shocked that "pro-Mubarak" thugs are allowed to carry out such blatant acts of violence right under the eyes Egyptian Army.

[Academia Nut]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Egyptians have an enormous amount of pride in the artefacts of their antiquity? I had heard that during the first round of looting on the Museum some of the protestors attempted to protect it from looters and vandals. Would that not lead to the possibility of a massive freak out if the anti-Mubarak crowd finds out that the government hired people to attack and firebomb the Museum?

Either way, I hope someone protects the artefacts there because it just makes me furious when priceless cultural treasures are destroyed because of greed, stupidity, and malice.

[Duckie]

Anderson Cooper was assaulted and punched repeatedly in the head. Part of me is laughing, as it seems that every time a natural disaster or major incident takes place, Cooper is there trying to soak up ratings; while the other part of me is shocked that "pro-Mubarak" thugs are allowed to carry out such blatant acts of violence right under the eyes Egyptian Army.

Ugh. The comments on those articles.

"Maybe they found out he is a pole smoker"

"Probably an ex-boyfriend."

"Shows him that not all Muslims are on the side of Arch-Leftists"

"This is the Muslim response to anything. VIOLENCE. [...] We're at war, whether you like it or not. Pick a side."

I'm somewhat dubious that all the thugs are paid. There's people like those commenters in every country- Authoritarian-followers who just need an excuse for their behavior and believe anything someone in a uniform or shiny suit says.

[Edward Yee]

FWIW, Duckie, there's also the prospect of coerced public employees; I didn't report that one earlier since I haven't heard independent confirmation.

According to one of the Something Awful threads, a bus actually came from the pro-Mubarak lines deep into the protesters' crowd... only to then be swarmed by said protesters. Apparently moving slowly, but again, A BUS.

[Broomstick]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Egyptians have an enormous amount of pride in the artefacts of their antiquity?

From the first time an ancient Egyptian was buried in a sand dune with some jewelry on there has been a conflict between those who respect the dead and their cultural heritage and those who rob the dead for a quick profit.

Many Egyptians value their heritage and the treasures of the past, but there are also some who see gold and want to make immediate profit for themselves.

[Edward Yee]

The aforementioned Goon is now claiming that "some escaped convicts" were amongst the pro-Mubarak people (mainly police/security forces) who were grabbed by the anti-Mubarak protesters.

[Patrick Degan]

It is not at all a stretch to surmise that we're seeing Mubarak's security goons and agents-provacateur making up a good percentage of the "pro regime" counter demonstrators. Mubarak is fighitn for his life at this point and all the stops are going to get pulled out the longer this crisis lasts, until either Mubarak just outright crushes the revolt or the revolt crushes him.

[Big Orange]

There's a massive bonfire building up and Molotov cocktails being slung about not that far away from the Cairo Museum.

This "astro turf" rent-o-mob of political party members and secret police officers blending in amongst an assortment of random idiots and thugs should hopefully be Mubarak's last throw of the dice, since Egypt's armed forces seem to be in the middle of a low intensity mutiny, with the guys in the tanks not willing to let rip with their coaxial cannons and the commanding officers themselves split into "pro" or "anti" Mubarak factions. And if Mubarak has it his own way and the US manufactured tanks start flattening everything, then that's it for Mubarak's regime and America's influence anyhow.

Pack it in, Mubarak, you crazy bar steward!