Trump/Republican Coup Thread

[Elfdart]

You are welcome.

I feel sorry for whomever has to mop up after Trump's head explodes over this.

I feel sorry for Biden, who will have to undo so much of what this fucker has done while 25% of the population are so crazy they supported this domestic terrorist attack.

Heh... It's already on the front pages of most Norwegian newspapers that Trump will be impeached again.

The instant he takes office, Biden needs to do what Charles de Gaulle did when he took over in France at the end of WW2: announce that every edict, proclamation, executive order, general order, etc enacted from January 2017 to present is null and void.

[Batman]

While I am absolutely behind that would Biden have the legal authority to do that? You don't want to give the republican whine of 'waah! Unconstitutional!!!!' fodder by Biden trying something that actually is.

[Solauren]

Can Biden strike down Trumps Executive Orders?

Yes, Yes he can. No it's not unconstitutional. In fact, it's actually standard practice.

From Wikipedia

Presidential executive orders, once issued, remain in force until they are canceled, revoked, adjudicated unlawful, or expire on their terms. At any time, the president may revoke, modify, or make exceptions from any executive order, whether the order was made by the current president or a predecessor. Typically, a new president reviews in-force executive orders in the first few weeks in office.

So, Biden can walk in, sit down, and sign an order suspending every Executive Order that ex-President Trump issued while in office, pending full review. He could then hold up why each order each of Trumps former orders that was active when Biden took office, is being revoked.

[Batman]

Well that clears that up for executive orders at least . Thanks

[MKSheppard]

So...

LINK

Local and federal security officials expect about 20,000 National Guard members to be involved in securing Washington, D.C., for President-elect Joe Biden's inauguration next week.

"I think you can expect to see somewhere upwards of beyond 20,000 members of the National Guard that will be here in the footprint of the District of Columbia," Washington Metropolitan Police Chief Robert Contee said on Wednesday.

It represents an uptick in National Guard troops that will be deployed to the area. Army Times reported earlier this week that the Pentagon had authorized 15,000 National Guard members to be sent to the District for the inauguration.

So hum......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... rces_Korea

Size 23,468 personnel

Conclusion: North Korean Invasion of DC imminent. Homefront nao?

[Solauren]

Considering..

... The sheer number of people showing taking part of the ''Storming of the Capital"
... members of them were planning to kill government officials
... reporters were being threatened for covering the event
... at least 'protestor' had a military semi-automatic weapon and explosive devices ready to go
... how many police officers were injured (116)
... that it took the National Guard to but down the entire thing
... extremists are calling for even more wide-scale, violet action, up to and including attempting to kill Biden
... hostile foreign interests may try to use anything Americans attempt to do on that day as cover for their own attempt at destablisation
... how fucking embarrassing the entire situation was in the first place, and how embarrassing a second similar incident would be
.. Trumps hard-core supporters seem more then happy at the idea of forcing a second US Civil War

20,000 soldiers seems somewhat reasonable. Especially if there are more standing by in reserve.

My thinking is this; if the Trump-Supporters want to 'fight for Trump!'.....

Well, they're fighting the lawful, legally upheld, and by all accounts honest, process of the country with the largest military in the world, based on the false claims of a deluded self-serving individual.

If they want to pick that fight, I say, give it to them. Hard. Crush them like the annoyances they are.
20,000 soldiers kited out for battle seems like a good way to start.

[MKSheppard]

James Harnett -- 7:14 PM · Jan 13, 2021·Twitter Web App

MPD confirms at @ANC2B meeting that the entire National Mall will be closed to everyone (pedestrians, vehicles, etc) beginning tomorrow thru to after the Inauguration.

All sightlines of the Capitol building will be blocked for the Inauguration. Do not try to watch it in-person.

[wautd]

Hang on... Does this mean that 186 representatives are OK with Trump behaving like he does??? What the actual fuck? What is WRONG with these people?

Tribalism?

[FSTargetDrone]

This is an old one, but a good one. Thinking about how many of those faces are no longer in the administration...
Too many right wing nutters in the US for anything to happen, I'm afraid...

Incidentally, Comey thinks Biden should consider pardoning Trump (jump to 6:05 for that bit):



I'm not particularly interested in "healing" the country right now. I want to see an example made of Arrogant Orange.

[Solauren]

For those hoping for a trial and conviction of Trump on Jan 19 - DON'T

Why?
During that period between Trumps removal from office and Biden taking office, Pence would be POTUS.
For all we know, there is a pardon with Trumps name on it, waiting for Pence to sign.

Let the trial happen after Jan 20. With Trump, Pence, and the remains of his direct supporters out of office.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

For those hoping for a trial and conviction of Trump on Jan 19 - DON'T

Why?
During that period between Trumps removal from office and Biden taking office, Pence would be POTUS.
For all we know, there is a pardon with Trumps name on it, waiting for Pence to sign.

Let the trial happen after Jan 20. With Trump, Pence, and the remains of his direct supporters out of office.

Straight from the US Constitution: "The President ... shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of impeachment."

Trump cannot be pardoned in the event that he's convicted as a result of an impeachment trial. He can be pardoned for everything else federal, but not that; and a Presidential pardon cannot save him from state criminal proceedings, such as the ones New York will eventually levy against him.

New York State's investigation into Trump's finances are still the only realistic route to meaningful criminal justice against Donald Trump.

EDIT:

It's all a moot point. Unless Mitch McConnell has a change of heart, the Senate will stay in recess until after Biden's inauguration.

[Solauren]

I meant for any Federal offenses Trump could be charged with, not the Impeachment himself. I want him to leave office with all that hanging over his head.

[bilateralrope]

I wouldn't be worried about a pardon. If Trump is going to pardon himself*, it will happen before any removal vote in the Senate can take place. If he's going to resign and get Pence to pardon him, that will also take place before any Senate vote. If the vote doesn't happen, the pardon still will because Trump is still facing Federal charges.

*There is some talk that a self-pardon may be used against him in civil cases. Which is the only thing I can see stopping him from attempting a self-pardon.

It's all a moot point. Unless Mitch McConnell has a change of heart, the Senate will stay in recess until after Biden's inauguration.

The most important parts of the impeachment process here are:
- Getting a list of senators who pick Trump over Democracy. Which we will get from the Senate vote.
- Blocking Trump from holding office again.
Those can still happen after Biden's inauguration.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Issues with a self-pardon: Unlikely to stand up in court. Open him up to gargantuan civil liabilities as accepting a pardon is often taken as an admission of wrong-doing. It is not terribly unlikely that some of the Federally illegal shit he's done would open his ass up to State crimes. See Civil Liabilities on this matter. He can be compelled to testify, even if it would self-incriminate since a pardon means he will be immune to legal consequences (if it stands up in court).

Roadblock for a Pence Pardon: Pence is probably really fucking pissed at him and would tell him to pound sand. See: everything but "not stand up in court" above.


I don't think Biden is likely to intervene if his DoJ decides to prosecute Trump. I don't see him issuing a pardon, pressing for no investigation, pressing for investigation... I expect he will just stay out of it.

And then the huge issue for Trump? He likely owes a shitload of money to people who won't try to sue him for it. They'll deal with unpaid debt in far, far more unpleasant ways. If Putin does have ties to the fucker? Well, Putin's got some very talented people working for him that are amazing at making liabilities go away. Once out of office, regardless of if he gets convicted in the Senate or faces Federal charges he's going to have a very bad time.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

It's all a moot point. Unless Mitch McConnell has a change of heart, the Senate will stay in recess until after Biden's inauguration.

The most important parts of the impeachment process here are:
- Getting a list of senators who pick Trump over Democracy. Which we will get from the Senate vote.
- Blocking Trump from holding office again.
Those can still happen after Biden's inauguration.

Barring Trump from holding office again seems like it should be very tempting to certain Senate Republicans. Even so, I'm struggling to come up with seventeen Republicans who would vote to convict him. We should save some time and probably just assume that list of pro-authoritarian Senators will include all the Republicans minus, like, two or three.

[Ralin]

And then the huge issue for Trump? He likely owes a shitload of money to people who won't try to sue him for it. They'll deal with unpaid debt in far, far more unpleasant ways.

Would take a pretty ballsy mobster to order a hit on an ex-president of the United States. And the Secret Service is by all accounts very good at their job, even factoring in that guarding Trump after he leaves office will be their punishment detail for the foreseeable future.

[Ralin]

Accidentally submitted early.

and a Presidential pardon cannot save him from state criminal proceedings, such as the ones New York will eventually levy against him.

Has this ever been hashed out in court or is it one of those tradition things everyone just understands is how it works and that turn out to be the underpinnings for a big chunk of how our government functions?

[bilateralrope]

While a self-pardon might not hold up in court, that is still an uncertainty. Maybe enough of an uncertainty that federal prosecutors decide not to charge him.

If he's planning to flee the country, the pardon doesn't need to hold up in court. It only need to hold for long enough for him to leave.

Barring Trump from holding office again seems like it should be very tempting to certain Senate Republicans. Even so, I'm struggling to come up with seventeen Republicans who would vote to convict him. We should save some time and probably just assume that list of pro-authoritarian Senators will include all the Republicans minus, like, two or three.

Sure. But it's still worth getting the others to make the vote. So that it can be brought up when they next run for reelection.

[Solauren]

The President has NEVER been able to pardon anything but Federal level crimes. Only that states governor can issue pardons for State level crimes.

So, if Trump were to get a presidential pardon that held up in court, any state level crime he is charged with can still proceed.

So, really, to be safe from criminal prosecution in the United States, Trump would need a presidential pardon, and then 50 governor pardons.

And that would still leave him open for civil liabilities.

Trump is screwed no matter what. I think that's the real reason he ran for President the first time, and wanted the election results changed this time.
It's his only possible defense against a massive legal shit storm.

[bilateralrope]

The President has NEVER been able to pardon anything but Federal level crimes. Only that states governor can issue pardons for State level crimes.

Question is, has any president tried to pardon a state crime ?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

The President has NEVER been able to pardon anything but Federal level crimes. Only that states governor can issue pardons for State level crimes.

Question is, has any president tried to pardon a state crime ?

They can't. The wording of the US Constitution specifically limits the Presidential pardon power to "Offenses against the United States". So not against one state, but all of them, ergo a Federal crime.

[Ralin]

The President has NEVER been able to pardon anything but Federal level crimes. Only that states governor can issue pardons for State level crimes.

Question is, has any president tried to pardon a state crime ?

They can't. The wording of the US Constitution specifically limits the Presidential pardon power to "Offenses against the United States". So not against one state, but all of them, ergo a Federal crime.

The United States is by definition made up of individual states. Whether it has been traditionally interpreted that way or not I don't think it's at all obvious based on the wording that the pardon power is limited to federal crimes.

[Broomstick]

For those hoping for a trial and conviction of Trump on Jan 19 - DON'T

Why?
During that period between Trumps removal from office and Biden taking office, Pence would be POTUS.
For all we know, there is a pardon with Trumps name on it, waiting for Pence to sign.

Let the trial happen after Jan 20. With Trump, Pence, and the remains of his direct supporters out of office.

Allow me to quote chapter and verse:

Article II, Section 2

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

Since Trump was impeached, NO ONE can pardon him for that. Not now, not in the future.

Let Pence be President for a day, or for 20 minutes, he simply can't pardon Trump for an impeachment. And for whatever faults the man might have, we do know that he has some respect for the constitution. Probably because he swore an oath to his god about upholding it, but who cares where it comes from?

I meant for any Federal offenses Trump could be charged with, not the Impeachment himself. I want him to leave office with all that hanging over his head.

I'd prefer he be vulnerable to those as well, but the presidential pardon is only for Federal offenses and New York is cranking up the indictment machine for their state. There may be others.

Also, Trump is not Nixon and Pence is not Ford. I mean, Nixon was suspected of being part of a scheme involving breaking and entering, which is small potatoes compared to a coup d'etat, and Nixon didn't send an angry mob towards the Capitol chanting "Hang Gerald Ford". It's not the same situation.

[Broomstick]

And then the huge issue for Trump? He likely owes a shitload of money to people who won't try to sue him for it. They'll deal with unpaid debt in far, far more unpleasant ways.

Would take a pretty ballsy mobster to order a hit on an ex-president of the United States. And the Secret Service is by all accounts very good at their job, even factoring in that guarding Trump after he leaves office will be their punishment detail for the foreseeable future.

Unless he is convicted in the Senate and they vote his Secret Service privileges away....

I suspect there are more Senators than currently suspected who would love to see Trump get a comeuppance. After all, we did get more Republican Representatives voting to impeach than we thought we would. Once he's convicted in the Senate with a 2/3 stripping away privileges only takes a simple majority vote.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Question is, has any president tried to pardon a state crime ?

They can't. The wording of the US Constitution specifically limits the Presidential pardon power to "Offenses against the United States". So not against one state, but all of them, ergo a Federal crime.

The United States is by definition made up of individual states. Whether it has been traditionally interpreted that way or not I don't think it's at all obvious based on the wording that the pardon power is limited to federal crimes.

Yes, and the authors of the Constitution envisioned states far more independent of each other than we do today. As a result, throughout the document, there is a clear distinction in the Constitution between "States" and "United States."

A couple of quick examples:

The first sentence of the same paragraph that outlines the President's pardon powers: "The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States ..."

The Tenth Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

With that being said, if the authors of the Constitution intended Presidential pardon power to extend down to crimes committed at the state level, I'd say that they would not have used the phrase "the United States", but would've written "the States."