Taiwanese march to back UN bid

[septesix]

The REASONABLE thing to do is a EU-like entity that allows the trades to flow through freely while still allow each government to work at their goals. We can use economical cooperation just every one else would.

So, why not do it and call it a ROC-PRC union? I doubt current China leaders would fervently oppose a unification in an overstate entity like EU. After all, wouldn't that boost their prestige too?

Beats me. But the simply truth is they won't go for it. Taiwan wouldn't have any problem with an EU entity where the government in taiwan and in china seats face-to-face , on the level. China is the one that INSIST that the government in taiwan MUST kowtow to it (I can think of no better ways to describe what they want).

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

I think the term "Federation of China" (Zhong Hua Bang Lian, 中華邦聯) or something like that has been circulating in some scholars and political people for awhile but rarely seen on mainstream media. Besides what septesix mentioned, it seems that the current politcal situation in Taiwan is too polarized into "Pro-unify vs. Pro-independence vs. (who cares?)everyone else" to let the Taiwanese think over it.

[septesix]

I think the term "Federation of China" (Zhong Hua Bang Lian, ????) or something like that has been circulating in some scholars and political people for awhile but rarely seen on mainstream media. Besides what septesix mentioned, it seems that the current politcal situation in Taiwan is too polarized into "Pro-unify vs. Pro-independence vs. (who cares?)everyone else" to let the Taiwanese think over it.

One of the problem with a EU-like system or the Federation of China is that the CCP-China governemnt is unwillying to accept this concept.

Essentially, PRC consider itself the Ultimate Chinese Authority in the world. Anything Chinese should falls under their control, any chinese political entity should be subject to itself, etc etc etc. Under this idealogy, it is simply Unthinkable for them to either accept Taiwan as an equal, or to accept another layers of chinese organization atop of them.

[Androsphinx]

Essentially, PRC consider itself the Ultimate Chinese Authority in the world. Anything Chinese should falls under their control, any chinese political entity should be subject to itself, etc etc etc. Under this idealogy, it is simply Unthinkable for them to either accept Taiwan as an equal, or to accept another layers of chinese organization atop of them.

To summarise:

As long as Taiwan claim the whole of China, and call the Communists in Bejing a bunch of land-grabbing gangsters, everyone is happy.

But if the Taiwanese concede that the Communists are the legitimate government of China, but that they have a right to self-determination and declare independance, that's an act of war? The entire thing is completely insane.

Oh, and Christopher Hum thought it was just as likely that the Chinese might invade during the Olympics (would the US counter-attck with so many hostages in Bejing?) as the reverse- the Taiwanese declaring independance with the hope that the large foreign presence will prevent the Chinese from starting a war. You pays your money...

[K. A. Pital]

"Attack"? Holy shit, I forgot how many people are insane. There's no fucking way China would risk ruining itself by attacking Taiwan.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

"Attack"? Holy shit, I forgot how many people are insane. There's no fucking way China would risk ruining itself by attacking Taiwan.

Not least, a lot of unhappy peasants = dead Communists.

[ray245]

What would happen if...the UN still recongize the ROC as the government of taiwan until the end of 1997, just to ensure Hong Kong is under a more democractic country?

Also, the KMT is pushing for the ROC to rejoin UN under ROC, not as taiwan.

Seriously, why can't the US decide to push the mainland china back a bit more, just to make china into a north vs South China scenario? That way, the most valuable coastal cities will be under the ROC.

[Battlehymn Republic]

That would be a wonderful solution. In an alternate history.

[K. A. Pital]

Seriously, why can't the US decide to push the mainland china back a bit more, just to make china into a north vs South China scenario?

So, which are the rational motives for that?

NONE. The US perfectly deals with PRC. End of story. I doubt the US leadership cares for either ROC or PRC. It's all just PR fluff for "we the sheeple". National interest and realpolitik only exist, the rest is a mirage.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Aside from economic reasons, Taiwan does serve as a nice jump pad to attack China from.

[K. A. Pital]

Why attack China? It is a consumer of natural resources, not a producer. Besides, it has already made itself a factory for the world, so it's manpower it accessible. Attacking China is plain stupid.

[ray245]

I never said attack china in the modern times. I mean sometime around the korea war. Well...one can dream of this though.

If only US was a 'little' more aggressive...

[K. A. Pital]

I mean sometime around the korea war

Involving in a conflict that will claim dozens of millions via American nuclear bombing and possibly lead to World War III? Hmm... what could be smarter?

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Chiang Kai Shek actually proposed to send ROC troops during the Korean Conflict link, this was rejected by Truman, though.

[K. A. Pital]

Of course it was, Truman also stopped Mc Arthur who went ballistic and proposed to attack China during the Korean War.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I never said attack china in the modern times. I mean sometime around the korea war. Well...one can dream of this though.

If only US was a 'little' more aggressive...

Ah, the stupidity runs in a river like emissions from the gargantuan members of horses once again.

Modern times means USA starts WWIII with the nukes and giant land battles in China that entails. A hundred million die, best case scenario, NOT COUNTING ECONOMIC REPERCUSSIONS of likely every major city of any importance having been glassed, which would cause a total shutdown of the economy, which means no agricultural supplies and medicine. Famine and Pestilence swiftly follow War to culminate in mass Death that makes the actual war seem trifling.

Korean war means USA again starts WWIII with the nukes and slightly smaller but still XBoxhuge land battles in China and areas roundabout. Maybe not a hundred million, but definitely close enough, best case scenario. Again that assumes no economic repercussions...

In summary. You are a fucking moron, an asshole, and a fucktard. Oh, and your mother was a hamster and your father reeked of elderberries. Now go away before i shall be forced to taunt you again!

[ray245]

I never said attack china in the modern times. I mean sometime around the korea war. Well...one can dream of this though.

If only US was a 'little' more aggressive...

Ah, the stupidity runs in a river like emissions from the gargantuan members of horses once again.

Modern times means USA starts WWIII with the nukes and giant land battles in China that entails. A hundred million die, best case scenario, NOT COUNTING ECONOMIC REPERCUSSIONS of likely every major city of any importance having been glassed, which would cause a total shutdown of the economy, which means no agricultural supplies and medicine. Famine and Pestilence swiftly follow War to culminate in mass Death that makes the actual war seem trifling.

Korean war means USA again starts WWIII with the nukes and slightly smaller but still XBoxhuge land battles in China and areas roundabout. Maybe not a hundred million, but definitely close enough, best case scenario. Again that assumes no economic repercussions...

In summary. You are a fucking moron, an asshole, and a fucktard. Oh, and your mother was a hamster and your father reeked of elderberries. Now go away before i shall be forced to taunt you again!

Oh please. By your logic, does that mean all the alternate history and RAR! Threads are stupid? I'm a asshole because I asked something? And dreaming of this idea makes me a moron? Just asking

Moreover, I've already said that I'm not referring to modern day. Also, since when did I said that this scenario will have a chance of happening in real life?

I'm simply asking about how a north vs. south china scenario would be like.

[starfury]

Oh please. By your logic, does that mean all the alternate history and RAR! Threads are stupid? I'm a asshole because I asked something? And dreaming of this idea makes me a moron? Just asking

Moreover, I've already said that I'm not referring to modern day. Also, since when did I said that this scenario will have a chance of happening in real life?

I'm simply asking about how a north vs. south china scenario would be like.

All the Blood and Killing of the Korean War, only Scaled up with Russia Taking the Role of China in the Original Scenario, With North China vs South China and Russia using North China as A Puppet.

Or Maybe Russia Being a little More aggressive also at the Time and stop pussyfooting and simply turn the whole thing into World war III, after all you wanted to push things up to that point.

You mean Like this Little Blood Alternative History

A longer Blooder World war II, complete with your Lovely North China vs South China Scenario.

[Ypoknons]

That would be a wonderful solution. In an alternate history.

As a Hong Kong Democrat, I'd definitely prefer more democracy. This definitely makes doing business in the PRC more difficult, not mention tying us to a government that is really quite far away. It'd really make more sense to go for independence, since I think the PRC might find Hong Kong handed off to the RoC even more offensive.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I never said attack china in the modern times. I mean sometime around the korea war. Well...one can dream of this though.

If only US was a 'little' more aggressive...

Ah, the stupidity runs in a river like emissions from the gargantuan members of horses once again.

Modern times means USA starts WWIII with the nukes and giant land battles in China that entails. A hundred million die, best case scenario, NOT COUNTING ECONOMIC REPERCUSSIONS of likely every major city of any importance having been glassed, which would cause a total shutdown of the economy, which means no agricultural supplies and medicine. Famine and Pestilence swiftly follow War to culminate in mass Death that makes the actual war seem trifling.

Korean war means USA again starts WWIII with the nukes and slightly smaller but still XBoxhuge land battles in China and areas roundabout. Maybe not a hundred million, but definitely close enough, best case scenario. Again that assumes no economic repercussions...

In summary. You are a fucking moron, an asshole, and a fucktard. Oh, and your mother was a hamster and your father reeked of elderberries. Now go away before i shall be forced to taunt you again!

Oh please. By your logic, does that mean all the alternate history and RAR! Threads are stupid?

No, just yours.

I'm a asshole because I asked something?

No, you're a moron. And not for asking something, asking this stupid something

And dreaming of this idea makes me a moron? Just asking

No, it makes you an asshole. Dreaming about millions dead?

Moreover, I've already said that I'm not referring to modern day. Also, since when did I said that this scenario will have a chance of happening in real life?

That's why I ran both Modern Day and Korean War scenarios for you, you asstastic cocktard.

I'm simply asking about how a north vs. south china scenario would be like.

I'm simply stating what a U.S. attack on China would be like, both Modern Day and Korean War.

Oh, and NC vs SC would be a giant-size Vietnam Redux.

And remember this?

If only US was a 'little' more aggressive...

You basically wished for a more warlike U.S. How's Iraq for ya?

[Battlehymn Republic]

If you want a reasonable "South China" scenario you'd have to go back to at least the Second Chinese Civil War, in 1949. Such a scenario has already been written up several times, not least in "China Without Tears" in the What if? anthology. Where you basically have most of southern China in the hands of the Nationalists, and with the PRC holed up in Manchuria.

It's all rather unlikely without massive differences, considering how unpopular the KMT got, and how much support the Communists got in comparison. In terms of realism, I personally favor an AH where the ROC manages to hold on to not just Taiwan and the outlying islands in the Strait, but also Hainan. An ROC that holds on to all of China would be nice, but it's kind of hard to see.

[ray245]

No, just yours.

Don't make me laugh. Why is this scenario more stupid than a thread where US decides to invade the rest of the world.

No, you're a moron. And not for asking something, asking this stupid something.

I thought you should be calling the question idiotic rather than calling me a moron because I ask something?

No, it makes you an asshole. Dreaming about millions dead? .

So that means people who create threads like US invade rest of the world are all assholes as well? Because people still die in those scenario. Moreover, even those people who write about alternative world war 3 scenario are assholes right?

Does that mean people who support the invasion of Iraq at first are asshole because they are hoping people will die?

That's why I ran both Modern Day and Korean War scenarios for you, you asstastic cocktard.

Why thank you for spending your extra time on typing something which I don't need you to tell me.

I'm simply stating what a U.S. attack on China would be like, both Modern Day and Korean War.

Oh, and NC vs SC would be a giant-size Vietnam Redux.

And remember this?

I am grateful for that. However, I do think that this part is rather unnecessary don't you think?

In summary. You are a fucking moron, an asshole, and a fucktard. Oh, and your mother was a hamster and your father reeked of elderberries. Now go away before i shall be forced to taunt you again!

You basically wished for a more warlike U.S. How's Iraq for ya?

There are right and wrong wars to fight. From what you are saying, US should not help in the Korean War right?

The reason I wish for a ROC as south china scenario is because it is the only way ROC can retain their seat in the UN in the first place, and have a chance of maintaining the ROC name. Right now, ROC could either cease to exist if Taiwan succeeds at gaining independence, or rejoining mainland china. Which means a democratic 'china' would disappear.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

ray245, you did know that the US actually contemplated using nukes during the Korean war, right?

[K. A. Pital]

Moreover, even those people who write about alternative world war 3 scenario are assholes right?

If they actively support this scenario, they are assholes.

Not realizing what implications a massive land war in China would bring, namely World War III and one-sided nuclear mass-slaughter on unprecended scale, means either being a moron or a genocidal warmonger.

Pick one.

[ray245]

ray245, you did know that the US actually contemplated using nukes during the Korean war, right?

Ya...I know that MacArthur was the one that wanted to nuke china. I don't support the idea of nuking china. What I support is the coastal cities like Hong Kong and shanghai can remain under the ROC control. So hoping for coastal cities remain free from the CCP is a bad thing? And since when did I say the US must invade the whole of china?

Not realizing what implications a massive land war in China would bring, namely World War III and one-sided nuclear mass-slaughter on unprecended scale, means either being a moron or a genocidal warmonger.

People died in wars, I know that. Does that mean people who support the invasion of Iraq are asshole because people died in the invasion? It's like saying between a nazi controlled Western Europe and a liberated Europe, which one is better? Are you telling me that liberating Europe from nazi's control is a bad thing because millions of people died in the war? I understand your point Stas bush. I never support the idea of having millions dying in war for a useless cause.

If Einhander Sn0m4n can justify the fact that I enjoy the idea of millions dying, I will rest my case. I don't dream of people dying. I was wishing for a more intact ROC. The same reason I hope North Korea would never take out south Korea and the same reason I support the US pushing north Korea back to the 38th parallel line.


I was hoping that ROC can remain intact with something more than Taiwan and a few surrounding island and to ensure that ROC can retain their seat in the UN. And stupid things like the Cultural Revolution would not make such a impact if more cities are under the ROC control.

Is there any possibility of the ROC being able hold the ground in mainland china during the civil war?