Steeeeeeeeeerike!

[fgalkin2]

Compare the price of a screenwriter to the cost of actors sallaries, driector's sallaries and overall budget of a film.

Once again, appealing to other people in the same industry. Totally incestuous argument.

What's unreasonable about it? An unskilled immigrant doing construction work gets paid less than a skilled worker, an actor, or a CEO. Does that mean that none of them may ask for a raise, ever?

Do you think that you, as an engineer, cannot ask for more money, because the worker who builds the things you design earns less than you do, if everyone else in the industry is making a lot more than you.

The point is, if an actor can be paid millions for a few days' shooting, then a writer who is just as important, may ask for a comparable salary. If everyone else gets a piece of the DVD sales, then why shouldn't writers get it?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Wong]

Compare the price of a screenwriter to the cost of actors sallaries, driector's sallaries and overall budget of a film.

Once again, appealing to other people in the same industry. Totally incestuous argument.

What's unreasonable about it?

It's a circular argument: justifying the entertainment industry's unusual compensation scheme by simply appealing to ... the entertainment industry's unusual compensation scheme. Do you understand what circular logic is?

An unskilled immigrant doing construction work gets paid less than a skilled worker, an actor, or a CEO. Does that mean that none of them may ask for a raise, ever?

We're not talking about a raise. We're talking about the exceptional arrangement that people in the entertainment industry have, whereby they receive lifetime compensation for working once. No construction worker expects that. For that matter, not even managers expect that. They're only paid while they're working, not forever after.

Do you think that you, as an engineer, cannot ask for more money, because the worker who builds the things you design earns less than you do, if everyone else in the industry is making a lot more than you.

What the fuck do you think my argument is, moron? I never said that everyone in an industry should be paid the same wage. I said that the whole entertainment industry has a bizarre and exceptional attitude toward compensation that is not shared by any other industry and cannot seriously be considered the intrinsic moral expectation that most of its defenders think it is.

The point is, if an actor can be paid millions for a few days' shooting, then a writer who is just as important, may ask for a comparable salary.

Who said actors actually deserve millions for what they do?

If everyone else gets a piece of the DVD sales, then why shouldn't writers get it?

And who said they deserve that?

I'm not attacking writers in particular, compared to other people in the entertainment industry as you so stupidly think I am. I'm criticizing the entire industry and the way they do business.

[Majin Gojira]

Compare the price of a screenwriter to the cost of actors sallaries, driector's sallaries and overall budget of a film.

Once again, appealing to other people in the same industry. Totally incestuous argument.

Which actually describes the entire industry to a T.

Anyway, since it's TV Writers, I can't really claim any further understanding of it (as my main area is film, despite having two Killer TV series pitches).

I guess it just is an extension of playwrite philosophy to recorded media.

[Terralthra]

Assuming the screenwriter writes an original script and then sells it, not giving him a cut of the profits is akin to not giving the author of a book a cut of it's sales.

Which would be perfectly reasonable if the author signs away those rights, which he might do if he doesn't think he'll find a better way to get paid. Construction workers would surely prefer a cut of gate receipts at an amusement park too, if that option were available. Since no one is offering such terms, they don't expect it.

I think the answer to the original question of "What makes them think they deserve this?" is simply "They think they have enough power that if they strike, the other side will give it to them."

If construction workers could realistically strike and demand a cut of gate receipts at an amusement park, they probably would. The WGA obviously thinks they are exclusive enough holders of script-writing skill that their demand will be caved to.

[fgalkin2]

Darth Wong

Oh, I agree that people in the entertainment idustry are ridiculously overpaid. I am not disputing that. However, since writers are part of that industry, they expect to be compensated according to the standards of that industry (that is, ridiculously overpaid), and they have every right to ask the same pay others in the industry get for doing similar work. Whether they are overpaid or not compared to the average person is irrelevant to this discussion.

A person in a third world country earns a dollar a day. A burger flipper at McDonalds earns 5 times that in a hour, a lawyer can earn many times that. Is it circular reasoning to suggest that if another person earns $2 a day, or $10 dollars an hour for the same job, that they are being overpaid?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Stravo]

Bwa, haha! The last time they tried this the studio's just bought ass-loads of scripts from complete unknowns. Gave us lots of shitty movies but it didn't seem to affect their baseline any. Good luck to them, all the same.

I'm not sure about this, but didn't the last time they had one of these strikes and the studios snapped up shitty scripts and made them into movies the movie industry suffered that months long crash of theater attendance and losses in profit?

[Admiral Valdemar]

The more prudent studio execs bought a load of scripts in September and October in anticipation of this, so we have a while to go before they run out, which should be around spring next year. The current affairs shows that rely on witty writing will already be suffering, though.

[Dartzap]

Didn't they also buy up a load of bloody reality TV shows as well? Most depressing year for American Television?

Welcome to the UK TV Industry for the last few years....

[Turin]

If construction workers could realistically strike and demand a cut of gate receipts at an amusement park, they probably would. The WGA obviously thinks they are exclusive enough holders of script-writing skill that their demand will be caved to.

Which I don't understand. Construction workers unions associate with trade schools to do apprenticeships and the like, actually giving (skilled) construction workers some moderately exclusive skills. What does the WGA do for writers that holds them to some level of "professional skill" that the studios can't just find some other writers to do the work?

[Kanastrous]

I said that the whole entertainment industry has a bizarre and exceptional attitude toward compensation that is not shared by any other industry and cannot seriously be considered the intrinsic moral expectation that most of its defenders think it is.

If different industries have different cultures, then making value judgments regarding the morality of a given industry's expectations sounds kind of like judging Bedouin behavior by the standards of Kalahari Bushmen.

I conceded the 'objective morality' argument to Darth Wong on another thread, and the concession stands. So FWIW I'll just offer the observation that we all have things we want, in this business, when it comes to compensation, benefits, credits, etcetera...and we push for what we want, because we want it, and because we [/i]can.[/i] I don't see any reason that needs justifying...

Producers, writers, actors, grips, teamsters, whoever - we're all angling for the best deal. And, why not?

[Kanastrous]

What does the WGA do for writers that holds them to some level of "professional skill" that the studios can't just find some other writers to do the work?

Nothing.

It's not about maintaining levels of professional quality or creativity - which you have probably noticed, watching a lot of the product out there.

It's about collective bargaining, and the power deriving from that.

Studios can and do hire scab writers, and those people are duly noted and shit-listed by the Guild, in anticipation of the day they come looking to get their WGA cards. Which is why a lot of scabs, write under pseudonyms.

[Kanastrous]

Sorry for the triple post, but...

Just heard that there is talk of a picket line around the studio here, come Monday...so I have to decide whether or not I am willing to cross it, since my guild is not striking, nor is the guild's position that they will protect members who choose not to cross.

Well, I didn't cross the grocery workers' lines, when they struck, a couple years ago. And I have plenty of money in the bank.

So I'm left to consider the career implications, of turning my back on the above-the-lines, on this show.

Hmm.

[Vendetta]

And the physical structure isn't the backbone of an amusement park? Are you on drugs?

The difference is between "do people die on your ride" and "is your ride going to keep attracting new punters".

One is functional, discrete, and binary, the other is a lot fuzzier. Script writers are paid for the latter. Construction workers or the former.

[CmdrWilkens]

Every industry creates its own compensation scheme and the workers will always seek to maximize their return while the ownership/management will seek to maximize their profit line. That's basic. You could make the analogy of the cut on all film revenues (including merchandising, TV, the whole nine yards) to any other performance based incentive. As a retail manager if I perform well against my expectations then I receive a performance bonus. The writers who produce scripts leading to successful movies expect a performance bonus in terms of a percentage of either net or gross receipts and they are seeking to extend that bonus to all receipts including distribution.

The problem is that saying writers shouldn't appeal to the compensation standards of the rest of their industry is falacious is just wrong. EVERY industry sets its own compensation scheme. Construction pays on premiums on speed and reliability of meeting deadlines, retail pays premiums based on sales volume, industrial pays on produciton quotas, law on billing hours and litigation won, marketing based upon clients billed, we could go on. EVERY industry creates a means of rewarding performance and it NEVER applies to the entire structure from top to bottom. The writers have every right to deman that the rung within the film/TV industry be moved lower to include them as well. Whether they get it or not isn't a matter of right they have to this compensation but rather the same right they, and every other collective group of workers has, to petition management for an increase in compensation or a change in compensation structure. The UAW doesn't have a right to its coporately funded pension plan but it does have the right to organize a strike to force management to fund it so as to deter productivity losses from missing workers. If all the accountants at say ERnst and Young decided they didn't like their pay structure and bonus system then they have every right to collectively petition management for a change in that compensation structure and then threaten (and possibly enact) a walk off the job in order to force it. In turn there is nothing other than the balance sheet of aceeding to employee demands versus hiring new employees which forces management to accept such demands.

Sure we all think the entertainment industry is overcompensated yet the money is coming from somewhere and so long as it rolls in then those who work to create the cash flow have every right to demand they get more of it even if they never get it. Just because screenwriters are hideously overpaid for the work they do doesn't mean they don't have the right to organize a strike and request more it just means we don't have to like it.

[Darth Wong]

Producers, writers, actors, grips, teamsters, whoever - we're all angling for the best deal. And, why not?

I'm not saying that you shouldn't angle for the best deal you can get. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't expect sympathy from the general public, most of which does not enjoy your absurd compensation schemes. It's like politicians; they genuinely feel as if they're being horribly oppressed if they're made to work 5-day weeks, because their industry has no real expectation of work. Maybe that's the norm in their industry, and maybe there's nothing intrinsically wrong with them feeling this way. But they shouldn't be fucking surprised if others don't say "oh you poor baby".

[Kanastrous]

Producers, writers, actors, grips, teamsters, whoever - we're all angling for the best deal. And, why not?

I'm not saying that you shouldn't angle for the best deal you can get. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't expect sympathy from the general public, most of which does not enjoy your absurd compensation schemes.

That all sounds eminently reasonable.

As usual.

[Erik von Nein]

I'm not sure about this, but didn't the last time they had one of these strikes and the studios snapped up shitty scripts and made them into movies the movie industry suffered that months long crash of theater attendance and losses in profit?

No, that happened a couple years later.

[Flagg]

I'm not sure about this, but didn't the last time they had one of these strikes and the studios snapped up shitty scripts and made them into movies the movie industry suffered that months long crash of theater attendance and losses in profit?

No, that happened a couple years later.

Yeah, that was during the leadup to a possible directors strike that never took place, wasn't it? I remember that being when a shitload of reality TV series started to premier.

[Quadlok]

I'm not saying that you shouldn't angle for the best deal you can get. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't expect sympathy from the general public, most of which does not enjoy your absurd compensation schemes. It's like politicians; they genuinely feel as if they're being horribly oppressed if they're made to work 5-day weeks, because their industry has no real expectation of work. Maybe that's the norm in their industry, and maybe there's nothing intrinsically wrong with them feeling this way. But they shouldn't be fucking surprised if others don't say "oh you poor baby".

Exactly. Writers, actors, directors and etc have jobs that for millions of people would be a wish come true. Acting, writing, playing sports and entertainment in general are supposed to be things you do because you like doing them, as opposed to working accounts receivable or doing roofing. Its really hard to have sympathy for people striking over something that for most people fits more under the category of a hobby rather than work, especially when they're already being payed better than average to do it.

[Lord Poe]

I asked Kevin Smith if he could add new scenes (or pages) to his recently completed script for his next movie, when the strike occurs. He said, "As the writer, no. As the director, yes."

Pretty nice loophole, there.