National American Religious History Week!

[Lusankya]

I always thought that America was primarily founded on a tax dispute with Britain. And making sure that the King of England couldn't come into your house and boss you around.

[Guardsman Bass]

I think you are the one who is confusing rhetoric with reality. As I pointed out, most of the colonies weren't defined by their religion in their founding; Rhode Island was founded as the anti-religious establishment colony, and only Massachusetts and Maryland were overtly religious settlements. Religious rhetoric was used as a means of expression by many groups throughout American history, but to claim that America is based on religion for that is idiotic.

Do you understand the difference between the nation and the state? A nation can be religious even if the state has a secular political constitution. The American nation is religious, not secular. I would've thought this be obvious considering the amount of bitching I hear here regularly on the excessive overt religiosity of Americans.

Of course I understand the difference between a nation and a state; my point was always that religion was a primary basis only for a minority of the original 13 Colonies. Religion existed and was prevalent in the colonies, but I would hardly call it a foundation of American nationalism; the kind of colony nationalism among the colonies was apparent even before the Great Awakening, and religion played only a weak role in the development of American nationalism as a whole.

For that matter, you could make the same argument about capitalism. Technically, the greater part of America was founded upon Capitalism; the first settlement of the Thirteen Colonies was founded by a Chartered Corporation trying to get rich off their investment, business-related slavery kept slavery alive in America, the US intervened heavily in Latin America in order to protect business investments - I'd argue that the sort of bourgieous capitalism that was held by much of the colonies, religious or not, has been far more prevalent in the American identity that religion has been. Hell, the greater part of the US-Soviet divide was defined as a difference between fundamental views of the economic order, with all the connotations associated therein.

Even if that was true - you obviously do not understand the difference between a Royal charted joint-stock corporation and a modern business corporation, or the difference between mercantilism and modern capitalism - what does qualify as something a country is built on, if fundamental economic principles and common or characteristic practices would somehow belong to inappropriate criteria? What kind of things are you allowed to say that America is built on? Why can't America be built on different things in different ways and depending on what aspect of America you're talking about?

Don't nitpick - I never even commented on whether or not the Virginia Company was a mercantilistic operation (I merely pointed out that it was a royally chartered corporation trying to make a buck). Moreover, my point was never that capitalism was somehow automatically excluded from being a founding cause of American nationalism; I was disputing HemlockGrey's characterization of religion as an influence in American nationalism with no real rival, and pointing out that by the same definition (consistent influence over the entire span of American history), business and a version of capitalism could fit in that categorization.

[DrMckay]

Actually, many of the Founding Fathers expressed Deist (belief in a higher power,) beliefs, rather than expressed belief in the Christian "God."

As to Rhode Island, The Touro Synagogue, the first in colonial America is located there.

(from Wikipedia:)

In 1790, the community wrote to George Washington, expressing its support for his administration and its good wishes for him. He sent a letter in response, which read in part:

...the Government of the United States...gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance...May the children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and figtree, and there shall be none to make him afraid. May the father of all mercies scatter light and not darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy."[1] George Washington (hypocrisy and slaveowning aside,)

emphasis mine. Nowhere was the Christian Deity specifically mentioned.

Washington, hypocrisy about slave owning aside was a Deist who was in favor of religious tolerance. The more things change....

[DrMckay]

oops. linky:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touro_Synagogue#_note-0

[Darth Wong]

Washington, hypocrisy about slave owning aside was a Deist who was in favor of religious tolerance. The more things change....

I don't think those guys believed they were hypocrites. When they talked about the rights of people, they meant "white people". That's one of the reasons I hate the whole "founding fathers' intentions" line of reasoning. Their intentions were quite often much worse than the letter of the laws they created. I have no doubt that they never intended human rights to fully apply to blacks.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Some did. Hamilton was an anti-racist and an early abolitionist. He also was the only self-made man amongst them; an immigrant and illegitimate child who advanced himself through merit.

[Darth Wong]

Some did. Hamilton was an anti-racist and an early abolitionist. He also was the only self-made man amongst them; an immigrant and illegitimate child who advanced himself through merit.

Sure, just like there were a few who were outright and unapologetic haters of religion in all its forms. But by and large, it's fair to say that they were aristocratic Christian white racists.

[wjs7744]

There is far more basis for claiming that america was based on racism, like Mike pointed out, than there is for it being based on religion. Was religion enshrined into American law, only to be finally overthrown in the mid 20th century? No? I thought not. The whole "country is based on" and "will of the founding fathers" bullshit is just that. The only reason people do it in America is that the country is still so young. Do you see us going on about what England was based on?

[Lusankya]

There is far more basis for claiming that america was based on racism, like Mike pointed out, than there is for it being based on religion. Was religion enshrined into American law, only to be finally overthrown in the mid 20th century? No? I thought not. The whole "country is based on" and "will of the founding fathers" bullshit is just that. The only reason people do it in America is that the country is still so young. Do you see us going on about what England was based on?

Actually, I think it's just an American thing. You don't see Australians harping on about what our founders would have wanted either. Then again, Australia was pretty much formed because England said, "You're costing us too much money. Go become your own country, with your own debt." So maybe that had some kind of influence as well.

[Adrian Laguna]

You know, I think that owning slaves does not necessarily make you racist or a supporter of the institution. It's quite possible to be morally opposed to slavery, not think blacks are inherently different than whites, and still own slaves simply because it is as profitable enterprise.

[Imperial Overlord]

Franklin was also strongly anti-slavery in his later years.