What happens when you let teens drive really fast cars

Sephirius · Post by **Sephirius** » 2008-01-30 10:14am

Jesus Fucking Christ.

DON'T SET THE GODDAMN CAR TO RACE MODE UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE DOING, IT DISENGAGES TRACTION CONTROL, AND MOST OF THE ASM SYSTEM.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-01-30 10:16am

Sephirius wrote:Jesus Fucking Christ.

DON'T SET THE GODDAMN CAR TO RACE MODE UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE DOING, IT DISENGAGES TRACTION CONTROL, AND MOST OF THE ASM SYSTEM.

Jesus fucking Christ. DON'T POST IN ALL CAPS, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE GOING TO SAY SOMETHING FUCKING STUPID. Do you really think BMW's safety systems can somehow allow the car to ignore the laws of physics? Once you get going at 150mph on a runway with only a few hundred feet left, YOU ARE FUCKED. No traction control or any other system will save your sorry ass in that case. What part of my previous post flew over your head, exactly?

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2008-01-30 10:16am

Hooray for stupid dead Florida teenagers. Bonus points for writing off a Bimmer while trespassing on private property. Extra style points for literally flying off a runway and wrapping the car around a tree. The only way it could've been better is if they were all drunk.

Cars these days have a scary amount of performance, even a Toyota Camary has something like 260hp which is more than what many sports cars had 20 years ago. Almost any car can go stupid fast these days, the problem is keeping them rubber side down. It's far too easy for a dumbass driver to get in way over his head before he even knows what's going on.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-01-30 10:22am

aerius wrote:Hooray for stupid dead Florida teenagers. Bonus points for writing off a Bimmer while trespassing on private property. Extra style points for literally flying off a runway and wrapping the car around a tree. The only way it could've been better is if they were all drunk.

Cars these days have a scary amount of performance, even a Toyota Camary has something like 260hp which is more than what many sports cars had 20 years ago. Almost any car can go stupid fast these days, the problem is keeping them rubber side down. It's far too easy for a dumbass driver to get in way over his head before he even knows what's going on.

Plus, a lot of people have no comprehension of basic physics. Once you build up that kind of inertia, there's no practical way to bleed it off quickly. Unless that car had a parachute and an ejection seat, by the time the kid reached 150 mph he was past the point of no return already. He just didn't know it until a few seconds too late, and at 150 mph, a few seconds is a loooong time.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2008-01-30 10:28am

No kidding, at 150mph the car is covering over 2/3 of a football field every second. Cars don't handle the way people expect at that kind of speed, it's a whole different world and the margin for error is very small.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2008-01-30 10:29am

I've driven a high performance car before, and can understand the mentality of these kids that drive like they do. There's no substance to the goddamn things. They feel exactly like those little racecars at an amusement park. Flick your wrist the wrong way, and you're spinning out of control. You can just feel that there's no way you'd even survive a 20 mph crash, they're so flimsy!

If you think its a fuckin' toy, you shouldn't be on the road.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-01-30 10:38am

Lord Poe wrote:I've driven a high performance car before, and can understand the mentality of these kids that drive like they do. There's no substance to the goddamn things. They feel exactly like those little racecars at an amusement park. Flick your wrist the wrong way, and you're spinning out of control. You can just feel that there's no way you'd even survive a 20 mph crash, they're so flimsy!

If you think its a fuckin' toy, you shouldn't be on the road.

True, although the BMW M5 is a high-powered sedan, not a traditional sports car. Its curb weight is 1820 kg, or roughly 4000 lbs (and that's without the extra weight of 5 guys in it; if they weighed 160 lbs each, that's another 800 lbs!). That's a heavy car, which makes it even more unsafe at very high speeds. One of those insubstantial actual race cars could decelerate far more quickly: Formula 1 race cars can decelerate at stupendous gut-wrenching rates of up to 4 Gs (so it would take an F1 car 1.7 seconds to stop from 150mph instead of 6.8 seconds, during which it would cover 190 feet instead of 750).

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2008-01-30 10:44am

Lord Poe wrote:I've driven a high performance car before, and can understand the mentality of these kids that drive like they do. There's no substance to the goddamn things. They feel exactly like those little racecars at an amusement park. Flick your wrist the wrong way, and you're spinning out of control. You can just feel that there's no way you'd even survive a 20 mph crash, they're so flimsy!

If you think its a fuckin' toy, you shouldn't be on the road.

I don't know about other "high performance cars", but a M5 isn't exactly a light and nimble car and it certainly has a lot of substance to it. It's close to 2 tons of weight.
I just have experience with a 320d, but even at 240, it is rock-solid on the road and you have to do a lot more than to flick a wrist to spin it out of control.

CaptHawkeye · Post by **CaptHawkeye** » 2008-01-30 10:47am

It's great that the FAA seperates high performance aircraft or acrobatic aircraft from the Normal/Utility category of aircraft. In aviation, whenever you want to expand your yourself to new types of aircraft, you pretty much need training and a certification to do so. Want to fly a Cessna? Get your private pilot's license. Simple. Oh but now you want to fly a twin engine Baron? Sorry, go get more training. Want to a fly an Extra 300S? Go get training and come back with a cert. The FAA learned a LONG TIME AGO that simply allowing people to control aircraft they didn't fully understand was a very bad thing.

I understand that the sheer number of drivers in the modern world vastly increases the likelyhood of accidents, and that it decreases the ease of enforcing regulation. But their are times the DMV could really learn something from FAA policies.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-01-30 11:00am

Dahak wrote:I just have experience with a 320d, but even at 240, it is rock-solid on the road and you have to do a lot more than to flick a wrist to spin it out of control.

At 240 km/h in a sedan, control is an illusion. If you needed to make a real emergency maneuver, you wouldn't be able to. Hell, these kids got their car turned sideways before it launched, and it was still going forward in pretty much its original direction.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-01-30 11:32am

Streetracer wannabees offing themselves in a spectacularly idiotic fashion... I guess I got kind of used to that news over here too.

I'd say stupid yuppie kids should have psych tests before they are given a license. Really, I don't know what to do here.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2008-01-30 12:01pm

aerius wrote:Cars these days have a scary amount of performance, even a Toyota Camary has something like 260hp which is more than what many sports cars had 20 years ago.

Just for perspective, (in keeping with the subject of this thread), a modern V6 Camry can accelerate as fast as a 20-year old M5, and run the quarter mile as fast, and it's electronic limiter only kicks in 10 mph lower. The Camry isn't alone here, as it seems just about all V6 family sedans are moving into this league. Seriously, look how fast the current V6 Chevy Malibu has become, only two generations ahead of your own.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2008-01-30 12:09pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Dahak wrote:I just have experience with a 320d, but even at 240, it is rock-solid on the road and you have to do a lot more than to flick a wrist to spin it out of control.
At 240 km/h in a sedan, control is an illusion. If you needed to make a real emergency maneuver, you wouldn't be able to. Hell, these kids got their car turned sideways before it launched, and it was still going forward in pretty much its original direction.

Within its limits, you can very well do emergency maneuvres without insta-kill. At least twice, I had to make an emergency swerve on the motorway at speeds larger than 180. You feel the electronic do a lot, but it is not like Poe hinted at, that "do one tiny thing wrong, and it's gone".

Sure, it is by far not as safe as driving at 50, but it behaves a LOT better at those speeds than older cars or cars less designed for high speeds.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-01-30 12:12pm

Dahak wrote:Within its limits, you can very well do emergency maneuvres without insta-kill. At least twice, I had to make an emergency swerve on the motorway at speeds larger than 180. You feel the electronic do a lot, but it is not like Poe hinted at, that "do one tiny thing wrong, and it's gone".

Sure, it is by far not as safe as driving at 50, but it behaves a LOT better at those speeds than older cars or cars less designed for high speeds.

An "emergency swerve on the motorway at speeds larger than 180" will actually cover a lot of ground, and only feels like a rapid move because of the sheer speed. The identical maneuver, executed over the same distance at 60 would feel like a lazy drift. In the case where you needed to do a real emergency maneuver, you'd be fucked.

Vain · Post by **Vain** » 2008-01-30 01:31pm

I think paying for a car yourself makes for a big difference in responsibility. When I was younger, I drove a little 4 banger cavalier that my father gave to me. It was mine, but I didn't have to work for it and as a result I didn't respect it. I, admittedly, did some pretty silly things with it.

Now I drive a car that is pretty much identical to the M5 in performance, but I paid for it myself, and so I'm more concerned about preserving it. I'm neurotic enough about cosmetic things. I would be DEVASTATED if I totalled it out (assuming I survived

). As a result, I'm careful with it. Keeping your expensive possession (the result of your personal hard work) in good condition might not be the most enlightened reason not to drive like a lunatic, but the results are ultimately the same.

Of course, in this particular case, it wasn't even his own car. As a teenager, I would have been drooling over the chance to drive my father's $100K high performance automobile, but given the chance I wouldn't have gotten it over 2500 RPMs or even driven it in the city where it might get scratched. Carelessly damaging your parents' valuable possessions shows a complete lack of respect for them. What kind of person does that?

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2008-01-30 01:42pm

Ma Deuce wrote:Just for perspective, (in keeping with the subject of this thread), a modern V6 Camry can accelerate as fast as a 20-year old M5, and run the quarter mile as fast, and it's electronic limiter only kicks in 10 mph lower. The Camry isn't alone here, as it seems just about all V6 family sedans are moving into this league. Seriously, look how fast the current V6 Chevy Malibu has become, only two generations ahead of your own.

It's pretty nuts when seems like almost any passenger car can be ordered up with a V6 performance package that'll allow it to keep up with the high performance sports sedans from 15-20 years back.

Another fun thought, a current Z06 Corvette would likely smoke any car from around 20 years ago, and the upcoming ZR1 is going to be even faster. I've driven a Z06 on the track at Mosport and it is goddamn scary how fast it gets going in the blink of an eye, yet I never even came close to using the full capabilities of the car. I've also driven an RX-8 on the same track and it's nowhere close to being as fast & intimidating as the Vette, they weigh about the same but the 'Vette has twice as much power and more than 3 times as much torque. And unlike Ferraris and Lamborghinis, these cars are fairly widely available and all you gotta do to buy one is take out a loan or a 2nd mortgage on your home.

Sephirius · Post by **Sephirius** » 2008-01-30 02:48pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Sephirius wrote:Jesus Fucking Christ.

DON'T SET THE GODDAMN CAR TO RACE MODE UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE DOING, IT DISENGAGES TRACTION CONTROL, AND MOST OF THE ASM SYSTEM.
Jesus fucking Christ. DON'T POST IN ALL CAPS, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE GOING TO SAY SOMETHING FUCKING STUPID. Do you really think BMW's safety systems can somehow allow the car to ignore the laws of physics? Once you get going at 150mph on a runway with only a few hundred feet left, YOU ARE FUCKED. No traction control or any other system will save your sorry ass in that case. What part of my previous post flew over your head, exactly?

ASM would have helped a little, if not outright kept them going in a straight line, and iirc the race mode turns off ABS too.

They might have survived this if they didn't go RAR! Hardcore mode on the iDrive settings.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2008-01-30 03:02pm

Sephirius wrote:ASM would have helped a little, if not outright kept them going in a straight line, and iirc the race mode turns off ABS too.

They might have survived this if they didn't go RAR! Hardcore mode on the iDrive settings.

So instead of literally flying off the runway sideways and into a tree, they would've launched off the raised end of the runway while going straight, and still gotten themselves killed on landing when the car either noses into the ground or flips and rolls 20 times after the suspension bottomed out. Read the article, the car launched off the raised end of a runway and flew 200' through the air, driving aids would just ensure that they launched front first and maybe taken 10mph off the lauch speed. Either way they're still dead, and only a shitload of dumb luck would save them.

Napoleon the Clown · Post by **Napoleon the Clown** » 2008-01-30 03:50pm

Saying "modern family sedans have more power/better performance than sports cars from 15-20 years ago" is stupid as hell and pushing inaccurate. Cars from 20 years ago were shit in almost all aspects. During the time period referenced, emissions and the like were still making it hard to accurately compare them to cars now. Compare the cars from the sixties to the cars from the eighties and guess which ones will perform better given the same tire quality? Up until the mid nineties cars were gutless pieces of shit because the technology for computer controls in the engine weren't nearly what they are today. But that's an aside, really.

The age of the driver in this case isn't the issue so much as the lack of maturity and experience. An 18 year old can be a better driver than a thirty year old, given the proper mindset. I'll readily admit that it's rare for a punk ass kid to be responsible and mature. It isn't people under a certain age that should be barred from driving certain vehicles. It's about maturity. If there were a way to test that it'd be a better standard than basing it off a number. Too bad there isn't an effective way of determining that...

Five fewer idiots on the road. His family can have condolences, but the sympathy meter (for his parents) drops a bit for letting their dumbass kid drive their 500hp sports sedan. He may have been an adult legally, but he still had the mind of a child, IMO.

Kanastrous · Post by **Kanastrous** » 2008-01-30 03:57pm

havokeff wrote:There are a few motorcycles that you actually have to apply for to get, just so this type of thing doesn't happen.

For street-legal bikes?

I know about the CM1/CM2 split, but I didn't know about special permits for anything street-legal...

(BMW R1150GS, R1100S, R100GS)

Good riddance to the bunch of them. If they'd survived that day they could have gone on to cause a disaster on a public road.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2008-01-30 04:10pm

aerius wrote: Another fun thought, a current Z06 Corvette would likely smoke any car from around 20 years ago, and the upcoming ZR1 is going to be even faster.

Corvettes was actually talking about requiring a driver training course for anyone who wants to buy a ZR-1 a while back, before it got that designation, but I’m not sure if they’ve made a decision yet. But then, at least the Z06 and ZR-1 don’t really try to make a pretext of being anything but a road legal race car, unlike say a BMW M5.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2008-01-30 05:07pm

The new M5s are able to get up to 200 MPH without a sweat. I wonder if we'll get any teens trying to break this record in stupidity. There's something about Beamers and arrogant idiots.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2008-01-30 05:14pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:The new M5s are able to get up to 200 MPH without a sweat. I wonder if we'll get any teens trying to break this record in stupidity. There's something about Beamers and arrogant idiots.

As long as they only kill themselves and other stupid teens, I'm all for it.
The world could use a lot more stupid teenage organ donors.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-01-30 05:17pm

OT, but these trends in motorcar design are a perfect example of why people are barking up the wrong tree when they expect efficiency improvements to solve our energy problems in future. When car engines became more efficient thanks to all of these improvements in fuel control technology, did our automotive society become more efficient overall? Nope, we just started buying bigger and more powerful cars, thus more than offsetting any efficiency improvements.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-01-30 05:18pm

aerius wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:The new M5s are able to get up to 200 MPH without a sweat. I wonder if we'll get any teens trying to break this record in stupidity. There's something about Beamers and arrogant idiots.
As long as they only kill themselves and other stupid teens, I'm all for it.
The world could use a lot more stupid teenage organ donors.

I doubt any usable organs were left behind from that crash. Did you see the picture of the wreckage?

http://www.autounleashed.com/5-dead-in- ... in-florida