Female Muslim medical students disobey hygiene rules

[Plekhanov]

Just as in the case with the Hindu's wanting their sacred bull to be excepted from being culled to prevent the spread of bovine tb I'm all in favour of these theocratic nuts being excepted from the rules.

On the sole condition that they can get microbes to agree respect the sanctity of their religion and not infect patients via 'modest' unscrubbed wrists or long sleeves.

[fgalkin]

Since they so insist on following their quaint custom of covering themselves, they should also follow that quaint custom that women are not allowed to work. Or walk outside the home without a male relative.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[FSTargetDrone]

So I'm rhetorically assuming that anyone going in for surgery can be assured that everyone on the surgical team is going to be following standard rules of hygiene... And if there is question that a member of the surgical team isn't going to follow the rules, well then can we please not have them in the room when they cut me open, doc? Go ahead there and replace such persons with others who are happy to comply, I'd appreciate that.

Going in for surgery is risky enough without some religionist complicating matters because he or she doesn't want to scrub up and abide by the rules.

[darthbob88]

Since they so insist on following their quaint custom of covering themselves, they should also follow that quaint custom that women are not allowed to work. Or walk outside the home without a male relative.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I must agree; one should not be allowed to pick and choose one's batshit crazy religious customs to follow.

[Sidewinder]

I must agree; one should not be allowed to pick and choose one's batshit crazy religious customs to follow.

Giving its followers the option of picking and choosing which batshit crazy religious customs to follow is the ONLY WAY a religion can survive into the 21st century, when mass media makes it easy to see how retarded a certain custom is in comparison to the way the rest of the world lives. Why do you think there are so many damn denominations of Protestant Christians?,

[Napoleon the Clown]

Giving its followers the option of picking and choosing which batshit crazy religious customs to follow is the ONLY WAY a religion can survive into the 21st century...

And the survival of religion into the 21st Century benefits mankind, how?


Free practice of religion ends when it has a reasonable chance of harming others. Period. If you can't obey a rule because of your religion, you shouldn't be picking a religion with such idiotic beliefs.

[Sidewinder]

Giving its followers the option of picking and choosing which batshit crazy religious customs to follow is the ONLY WAY a religion can survive into the 21st century...

And the survival of religion into the 21st Century benefits mankind, how?

The survival of a religion may yield no benefit to the human race, but let's be honest: no religious leader will allow his faith to fade into history and erase him/her importance in the lives of his/her followers. For comparison, try getting a politician, even a retired politician, to shut the fuck up whenever something newsworthy comes up; they just don't want to fade away from the voters' minds.

[Superman]

There comes a time when we seriously have to consider invalidating certain religions from working in certain fields because this is not just a matter of respecting differences. This is about not following rules that can kill people because you don't want to be immodest. Go be immodest in another profession.

A fucking men.

The sad thing is that, despite being medical students and knowing about the potential for danger, they would put that aside for their silly pie in the sky bullshit and take the risk. Gee, I wonder if this type of thinking has anything to do with why most people who inhabit Muslim countries are living in dark ages where stoning people publicly and putting women to death for "crimes" like adultery are common practice.

[Superman]

I just wish the western world was "enlightened" enough to just deal with this type of situation by saying, "oh, ok... Don't want to follow the rules that modern humans follow? Guess what. You're gone." That would be the end of it. The Islamic rights groups would just be told to shut the fuck up and get with the program, or go back to their sand pit and practice medicine on a dune.

[Darth Wong]

There comes a time when we seriously have to consider invalidating certain religions from working in certain fields because this is not just a matter of respecting differences. This is about not following rules that can kill people because you don't want to be immodest. Go be immodest in another profession.

A fucking men.

The sad thing is that, despite being medical students and knowing about the potential for danger, they would put that aside for their silly pie in the sky bullshit and take the risk. Gee, I wonder if this type of thinking has anything to do with why most people who inhabit Muslim countries are living in dark ages where stoning people publicly and putting women to death for "crimes" like adultery are common practice.

It's more a function of people who don't think life in the real world is as important as "the next life" after death. Anyone who believes in an eternal afterlife in paradise could be easily made to think this way if put in the right environment.

[Superman]

It's more a function of people who don't think life in the real world is as important as "the next life" after death. Anyone who believes in an eternal afterlife in paradise could be easily made to think this way if put in the right environment.

It's funny, all the Muslims I know are because of the medical group that I belong to. There are quite a few that go into medicine, and I would wonder why anyone would bother if the next life is real and so damn great. Why even try to heal people? Wouldn't trying to convert them be more important? I understand that the religion has crap in it about "helping" people too; this kind of bullshit just never ceases to amaze me.

[PainRack]

Bullshit.

NOWHERE in the Koran does it prescribe this rule - it says that one must dress "modestly" but does not specify in detail.

That's just the kicker, now isn't it? Seeing that the Koran is distinctly moored in 7th century Arabic cultural ideas "modestly" means covered up. The debate that I've seen centers around what means "covered up". Does it mean only hands and face exposed, or full on veil?

Except that the passage is explicit in what it means by modesty. It states that women should have a scarve or something to cover up the BREASTS. IOW, no low cut dresses or gowns as you can't show cleavage. Neither can you reveal your midriffs and IIRC, legs(in another passage).

[Darth Servo]

Anyone else in medical programs doesn't properly wash (even low level CNA programs), they fail the course. Why should these people be any different.

Whats next, a woman's burka gets in the way of the surgical mask so they don't have to wear the mask?

[hongi]

Tell them nicely that they go along with the program. It isn't to oppress their religious beliefs, it's to save people's lives. If they persist, fuck em.

[Guardsman Bass]

Couldn't they (the students) simply go into the restroom or somewhere more private to wash their forearms, if they are so concerned about the exposure? If they won't do something like that, I'm inclined to say "Too bad, so sad" to these folk.

[Jaepheth]

Couldn't they (the students) simply go into the restroom or somewhere more private to wash their forearms, if they are so concerned about the exposure? If they won't do something like that, I'm inclined to say "Too bad, so sad" to these folk.

From my understanding, no. You have to have the foot pedal operated sinks and once you've scrubbed, you can't touch anything. You have someone help you get your gloves on, and then still without touching anything, you push the door to the OR open without touching the door either.

So unless hospitals want to make "private" scrub rooms next to the OR to cater to medical personnel who don't want other people fapping to the sight of their forearms; I'd say the only acceptable solution is that these people need to find a new line of work where they can where long sleeves at all times.

[Superman]

From my understanding, no. You have to have the foot pedal operated sinks and once you've scrubbed, you can't touch anything

Correct. Touching something after you've sterilized your hands amounts to contaminating them with all sorts of fun microscopic organisms. If Muslim women can't do this, I would have no problem telling them that a career in medicine isn't for them. In fact, this might be exactly what needs to happen. Eventually, the ones who want it bad enough will do it.

[Justforfun000]

I can't believe this is even an ARGUMENT in the field! How the fuck can you possibly bring up a nebulous religious argument against standards that are objectively laid out in a manner that lists quite clearly that any deviation can result in mortality?

Even if these idiots are so convinced that they MUST have these foolish extremes of 'modesty', shouldn't their sensibility at least tell them that "Well...I guess my beliefs are just not compatible with proper hygiene needed to be a medical practitioner."

Are they really so fucking selfish that they would risk KILLING people just to force their batshit ideas of morality on a secular profession? If they have a problem with they way things are, then take it up with God and demand he changes the rules of microbes.

It just boggles my mind!

[Napoleon the Clown]

Are they really so fucking selfish that they would risk KILLING people just to force their batshit ideas of morality on a secular profession?

Yes, yes they are. An opinion I've heard expressed many times is that there's a great deal of narcissism involved in religious convictions. My personal observations largely back this up.

If they have a problem with they way things are, then take it up with God and demand he changes the rules of microbes.

But that would be questioning God, er, Allah, now wouldn't it?


What it really boils down to is that they don't truly give a damn about their fellow human beings. They're out for themselves, first and foremost. They go into medicine because they find it interesting or think they can make good money, not out of a genuine desire to help others.

[Superman]

What it really boils down to is that they don't truly give a damn about their fellow human beings. They're out for themselves, first and foremost. They go into medicine because they find it interesting or think they can make good money, not out of a genuine desire to help others.

Yeah, I've always said that, no matter how you slice it, religion is the ultimate expression of narcissism.

[Chardok]

What's that? You won't obey basic sanitation protocol and you want to be a medical practitioner? That's too bad. You could have made something of it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Hey Valdemar, you know how I love pointing out Outside context problems, right? Check this one out: The Muslim students are experiencing one, sort of, only this OCP will kill other people, and not themselves. So it's the patients who adapt or die. Interesting quandry, no?

[The Vortex Empire]

You don't want to follow medical rules because you don't want to show some skin? Boo-hoo, you're kicked from the course. Religion is no excuse for helping disease spread.

[Qwerty 42]

I'm a little "meh, whatever" when it comes to religious exemptions for parts of courses, like religious objections to dissection in biology, for instance.

But as was pointed out, this isn't just about their own personal objections. Improper sanitation in hospitals is liable to kill someone.

[eyl]

I have to wonder how widespread this really is; I suspect this is a small minority of Muslim docters/students making a disproportionate amount of noise.

Besides the problems already discussed with the medical staff not washing up, this caught my eye:

But the Islamic Medical Association insisted that covering all the body in public, except the face and hands, was a basic tenet of Islam.

"No practising Muslim woman - doctor, medical student, nurse or patient - should be forced to bare her arms below the elbow," it said.

Apparently, any women with an injury above the hand (or internal conditions requiring surgery and such) is SOL, by this rule.

Since they so insist on following their quaint custom of covering themselves, they should also follow that quaint custom that women are not allowed to work. Or walk outside the home without a male relative.

Apparently Dr Majid Katme would agree

What I have found in all the agendas of all these international UN conferences is the same evil agenda, which is at all times against the unborn, the family, God, and morality.

Under the different titles of the international UN conferences, they were PUSHING at all times for:
:
:
The devaluation of womanhood, femininity, and motherhood; and the facilitation for mothers and wives to go like the men to the labor market, with the neglect of her natural, great job as a mother and a wife.

Is it possible to strip someone of his medical license for gross stupidity?

[Warsie]

You say it is your custom to not roll up your sleeves in the presence of men, regardless of reason. Very well. We also have a custom. When medical students disobey hygiene rules, we dismiss them with a failing grade. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.

'

LOL....Am I the only person who got that. That's hanged from what some UK General said when he was pacifying India and Pakistan when referring to burning widows