Kids who murder their own parents

[Broomstick]

Indeed, I am very much in favor of controlling access to guns. However, unlike some of the more anti-gun activists I don't want to remove all access to guns from responsible adults.

It's not that I oppose controls to prevent guns from falling into the hands of impulsive, murderous teens - in this instance I don't feel that's enough. There's too much focus on the particular weapon here. Teens murdering - or attempting to murder - their parents with anything else is just as unacceptable to me as killing parents with guns.

[K. A. Pital]

The problem is the scale. Would you say that industrial-scale murder is "the same" level unacceptable as generic individual murders? No? The difference here is less, but it's still there: the power of a gun is enabling to kill easier, more and faster.

[Broomstick]

The PROBLEM is that there are teens not only desiring to kill, but also willing to act on that desire. Again, I think there is over-much focus on the particular weapon rather than eliminating the cause of the killing. WHY do these kids do this? It's not normal. It's not even normal for most people who endure abuse to actually kill their tormentors. What makes the difference for these few people? Of course we should not make it easier to act on that impulse, but because they have overcome the inhibitions on killing I seriously doubt removing guns is really going to stop most of them in the long run.

[K. A. Pital]

People have already stated that this is an impulsive action as opposed to meticulously planned one. Therefore, access to weapons can mean more than just other means of murder.

Suddenly having a firearm pointed at the person with a 100% certainity of kill is not the same, even psychologically, as pointing a kitchen knife at the same person.

[Oskuro]

I think the feeling of power when holding a gun is one of those things that people just don't want to talk about in threads like this. Gun owners don't want to mention it because it is beneficial to the gun control argument (sudden feeling of power + teen angst + poor impulse control = problem). And anti-gun people don't want to mention it because they don't like to admit that they've ever held a gun and it felt good.

This might be a bit off-topic, so apologies, but recently, listening to the director commentary from the original Predator, John McTiernan commented that the scene where the soldiers fire for like 5 minutes into the jungle, and hit nothing, was a parody of his to the "erotic" of guns often promoted by hollywood movies (although he sadly pointed that this idea was later copied by others, except that they forgot to remove people from the firing line).

Anyway, the point here is that I suddenly realised that yes, the simple act of seeing a gun firing made me feel some kind of joy, the same kind I can feel when playing a shooter game and emptying clip after clip on the enemy. I've never held a real weapon, but I bet I'd like the experience, even when I hate guns.

The problem is more complex than simply blaming it on hollywood pro-gun agendas (or other simplistic scapegoats), though, but the fact that the power of weapons is appealing is an issue, specially when those wielding them are too immature (or stupid) to understand the consequences of pulling the trigger.

[Broomstick]

Suddenly having a firearm pointed at the person with a 100% certainity of kill is not the same, even psychologically, as pointing a kitchen knife at the same person.

Guns are not 100% lethal. Obviously, having someone hold one to your skull is pretty damn dangerous and even a non-lethal wounding is not something anyone would want to experience, but guns are not magical killing machines. In particular, handguns are notoriously inaccurate under many circumstances. I'd be much more afraid of being targeted by a shotgun than a handgun - which is not at all to say I would be fearless in front of a handgun, it's a potentially lethal threat as well. I don't want to minimize the threat, but "100% certainty of kill" is not reality. If it was I wouldn't be here as I've been shot at more than once in my lifetime - in both instances I wasn't even wounded although the second time the shooter did get the car.

While there is a psychological difference impulse murders can and do occur using weapons of opportunity, and that happens even in areas where guns are legal and obtainable. In this instance I don't believe controlling guns is enough, it won't make the problem go away even if fewer people are killed. Nor does a crime of passion or even pre-meditated murder require a gun - OJ didn't shoot his wife and Ron Goldman, after all, he used a knife although there is no reason he couldn't have obtained a gun. I find death by knife just as repugnant as death by bullet. In fact, in terms of the suffering of the victim, it may be worse with a more prolonged period of pain before the victim dies.

Even if these are definitely impulse kills that doesn't mean they will go away if you take the guns away. These teens aren't going around with a holster on their hip, after all, they still had to go get the gun from wherever it was stored. Remove the gun and it's likely they'll just search for another weapon, and any household is full of potential weapons. The murder rate from these circumstances is not going to drop by the number of gun killings we have at present, you'll see instances of use of other weapons go up. The net gain of lives saved still has merit, of course, that's very important, but it's not enough - I want to save the lives of parents killed by knives, clubs, and other means as well.

[CmdrWilkens]

Going to the point of feeling of power I think, don't know but think,it relates very much to the degree of training. I was trained in consistent and occasionally ominoustones about the importance and potential elthality of the weapons I was going to handle. By timeI actually had the opportunity to operate one, and then under very close supervision, I had a great respect for the amazing amount of damage it could do if handled improperly which resulted in me spending the majority of my time focusing on being safe. It wasn't until I finally got comfortable and the routines of safe operation ebcame second nature that I was able to enjoy shooting.

For someone handling a gun, paticularly hadnguns and shotguns, for the first time if you haven't been drilled in the danger they represent then it is an amazing power in your hands and there is no incentive to learn how truly deadly they can be, even by accident, until experience or repetitive teaching shows you otherwise. In a way this goes back to the Brit MP who wanted to teach young boys proper weapons handling techniques. Yes it would certianly make someone inclined to kill much mroe efficient but it also removes the mystique around guns, they are no longer magical devices but rather tools whose safe operation has been drilled into you. For cases like this gun safety likely wouldn't have changed anything (the boy just snapped) and taking the guns away not much changes either (he killed them after they had gone to sleep so defense against a knife wasn't going to be forthcoming).

Now all this being said home firearm safety is probably one place where far too many people are lax. I own a firearm and even with no kids around it is kept in a locked box with a cable running through the action that prevents loading a magazine (or even individual rounds) without unlocking and removing the cable. Far too many people just put the gun in a "safe" place and then take no further precautions which is probably the height of stupidity. If you want to own firearms then be safe about them because otherwise kids will find ways to get around basic security so design your defense in depth.

[wjs7744]

Anyway, the point here is that I suddenly realised that yes, the simple act of seeing a gun firing made me feel some kind of joy, the same kind I can feel when playing a shooter game and emptying clip after clip on the enemy. I've never held a real weapon, but I bet I'd like the experience, even when I hate guns.

I hate to break it to you, but playing an FPS =/= using a real gun. No, nor is watching Predator.

[RogueIce]

Going to the point of feeling of power I think, don't know but think,it relates very much to the degree of training. I was trained in consistent and occasionally ominoustones about the importance and potential elthality of the weapons I was going to handle. By timeI actually had the opportunity to operate one, and then under very close supervision, I had a great respect for the amazing amount of damage it could do if handled improperly which resulted in me spending the majority of my time focusing on being safe. It wasn't until I finally got comfortable and the routines of safe operation ebcame second nature that I was able to enjoy shooting.

I'd have to agree with this. Every time I have ever gone to the range, I was far more concerned about being safe with it (not fucking up and pointing the muzzle where I wasn't supposed to) than I ever was thinking "Yay I'm at the range and shooting yippee!"

That's not to say I was like DEATH and nervous or even afraid of it (the first time a little, but not really after that), I was just much more conscious of safe handling than I would've been thinking "boy it's cool I'm holding an M-16 and gonna get to shoot it".

This was even back in the Boy Scout days when I did the shotgun and rifle shooting merit badges. So you don't even need crusty, mean old NCOs to achieve this effect.

Now all this being said home firearm safety is probably one place where far too many people are lax. I own a firearm and even with no kids around it is kept in a locked box with a cable running through the action that prevents loading a magazine (or even individual rounds) without unlocking and removing the cable. Far too many people just put the gun in a "safe" place and then take no further precautions which is probably the height of stupidity. If you want to own firearms then be safe about them because otherwise kids will find ways to get around basic security so design your defense in depth.

Indeed. If the firearm is properly secured (and your kids don't know the combination or what-have-you to unsecure it), then that should, as far as I'm aware, take care of the "impulse shooting" problem as well as not having firearms at all. Frankly, if they're going to go to the trouble of planning out how to get the gun out of its safe, with trigger locks and everything, then they would probably have come up with another means of inflicting violence anyway if the gun wasn't there at all.

[Darth Wong]

Why is the feeling of power necessarily exclusive of an understanding of the safety issues? I'm quite aware of the dangers of a firearm and I was very concerned about safety the last time I handled one. It doesn't change the fact that as soon as you have one in your hands, you feel a sense of power.

[AMX]

For the record, not everyone responds with a "feeling of power" - I, for example, don't (and am, in fact, worried about people who do).

[Oskuro]

I hate to break it to you, but playing an FPS =/= using a real gun. No, nor is watching Predator.

Erm, that's why I pointed out that I've never handled a real weapon.

I brought up the Predator movie because my first reaction to McTiernan talking about the "erotic of guns" was "I don't like that!"... Then I realized that I do like it.
I think that's precisely the point that Darth Wong is trying to get across, that guns give a sense of power that people enjoy, regardless of their attitude towards guns, and that mostly everyone denies it out-of-hand.

And, if you mix that with irresponsability, or sheer stupidity, then you get "fun" results.

[wjs7744]

Erm, that's why I pointed out that I've never handled a real weapon.

I brought up the Predator movie because my first reaction to McTiernan talking about the "erotic of guns" was "I don't like that!"... Then I realized that I do like it.
I think that's precisely the point that Darth Wong is trying to get across, that guns give a sense of power that people enjoy, regardless of their attitude towards guns, and that mostly everyone denies it out-of-hand.

And the fact that he was talking about the feeling you get when you are actually holding a gun rather than watching a film or playing a game escaped you? They are in fact two entirely different feelings. I get the "Heh, cool!" from watching stuff in films blow up, but I didn't get the feeling of power from a real gun. Do you think watching porn is comparable to having sex? (couldn't think of a better analogy, but I doubt I'll offend many people here)

[CmdrWilkens]

Why is the feeling of power necessarily exclusive of an understanding of the safety issues? I'm quite aware of the dangers of a firearm and I was very concerned about safety the last time I handled one. It doesn't change the fact that as soon as you have one in your hands, you feel a sense of power.

I think the feeling of power is a very individual thing. I certinaly ENJOY shooting. I take pleasure in the ability to place a very small piece of metal in a relatively small target over considerable distance. What I don't feel is some sense that I am somehow more powerful than I was before except in the same sense that I feel more powerful with a sledgehammer as oppossed to a tack hammer. Guns which one learns to treat as tools will still give a sense of excitement, call it power if you will, for knowledge of what they can accomplish. The difference is that someone who is well trained to understand that it is a tool will have greater respect for it. Kids in shop classes can certianly cause themselves and other great injury with the tools at their disposal yet once they learn how to safely handle them they still retain the excitement or power to craft materials yet the mystique which can lead to their abuse is gone. Now obviously its a lot easier to hurt someone with a pistol than with a jigsaw but not by nearly as much as one might suspect. In both cases properly instilling in young people a sense of respect for the tools leads to greater restraint.

Part of the problme with teen driving is not just that we start them too young but so few parents and organizations actually impart to kids the danger and care needed in handling cars. Kids treat a car like it is a right they should have instead of a tool they must learn to use, I think changing THAT perception would do volumes in helping cure teen driving stupidity.

[Oskuro]

And the fact that he was talking about the feeling you get when you are actually holding a gun rather than watching a film or playing a game escaped you? <snip>

No, it didn't. Sorry for not making it clear, my point was how I came to realize that I enjoy things that I am conceptually opposed to, not to state that I know how holding a gun feels, because I don't.

The equation is the following:

a) McTiernan critizises the "erotic of guns" in his commentary
b) I agree with his opinion, and think "luckily I don't like that stuff"
c) Watching the scene, I come to the realization the I do like the stuff, even if I'm morally opposed to it.

Now, this was to agree with Darth Wong's opinion on how many people do not admit these impulses to themselves, by explaining a similar thing that happened to me. The point is not the gun holding, but accepting that you can like something you don't agree with.

There are many things out there that we shouldn't like, but we do (for whatever reasons). The bottom line (in my opinion) is that we must be mature enough both to control our impulses, and specially to accept that we have those impulses.


...and that was my point. Hope it's clearer now.

[K. A. Pital]

Teens are in general still irresponsible. Responsibility is something that comes with age. It's when a person knows that actions bear consequences, and due to his age and experience understands more or less clearly what the consequences are. A teenager is not like that. He's a child, and he doesn't fully realize the responsibility mechanism.

That's the same reason why we try pedophiles, right? Because they fuck people who aren't yet conscious enough, isn't it? So why car and gun owners, or people who give booze to their children, should be except from that rule? Now, I understand that the level of damage might be different, but I think that a child who killed his parents is a pretty high level of damage.

No gun access for those legally deemed not fully empowered citizens (in most countries - people under the 18-21 barrier years) should be a rule. Safe storage of guns, just like safe storage of cars, should be a top priority of the owner. Yes, explaining may lead to greater respect for the "tool" as it is, but better yet the person has no chance in hell of getting his hands on it before he's old enough and his mind is more or less ready for perception of responsibility.

[Starglider]

I think the feeling of power is a very individual thing. I certinaly ENJOY shooting. I take pleasure in the ability to place a very small piece of metal in a relatively small target over considerable distance.

Plinking targets with an airgun or hosing someone down with a full-auto paintball guns is fun. This is quite distinct from the power to kill and maim people.

What I don't feel is some sense that I am somehow more powerful than I was before except in the same sense that I feel more powerful with a sledgehammer as oppossed to a tack hammer.

When I was younger I did a fair amount of rifle shooting and a few sessions of shotgun shooting. I recall that when I first started doing rifle shooting, I was very safety conscious but in the same sense as using a chainsaw or a nailgun; 'I'd better be careful with this or I might hurt someone'. Handling shotguns was a different sensation. I actually felt slightly sick with the unescapable fact that I could turn around and instantly extinguish the life of anyone in the group - and that this is an ability that I really did not want to have. Obviously I didn't have any thoughts of actually doing such a thing, and I suppose with time one could take a certain pleasure in being responsible enough to have powerful weapons and the skills to use them while knowing that you don't constitute a danger. I don't think I'd ever lose that 'I wish I didn't have to have this ability' feeling though, even if I'd decided that it was necessary for me to own guns. In the general sense, the enormous human capacity for self delusion makes that 'I'm responsible enough to handle this' feeling worthless anyway; appropriate checks by qualified independent humans are the only reasonably accurate way to ensure people are responsible enough to be trusted with such effective weapons.

Now obviously its a lot easier to hurt someone with a pistol than with a jigsaw but not by nearly as much as one might suspect.

Danger like that isn't comparable to weapons like guns and knives because they only exist in particular limited contexts. No one is applying for concealed carry licenses for power tools, or robbing convenience stores with them.

[Darth Wong]

I think the feeling of power is a very individual thing.

On the contrary, I think that the willingness to admit that one recognizes this feeling of power is a very individual thing. The feeling of power is almost certainly universal, unless one is so fucking stupid that he honestly does not recognize that he objectively does now hold the power to very easily take the life of another human being.

And of course, most people are reluctant to describe it as a feeling of power, because there are too many people out there who will react like this imbecile:

For the record, not everyone responds with a "feeling of power" - I, for example, don't (and am, in fact, worried about people who do).

See how he tries to not-so-subtly insinuate that anyone who admits to this sense of empowerment must become intoxicated by it and then turn into a sociopath? Hooray for closeting your feelings in order to avoid bullshit pseudo-moral judgments!

[Rye]

I'd be more worried about people who don't feel powerful when they pick up a lethal weapon. If you have command over life and death you are powerful and you should probably recognise that. Do they not feel "powerful" when they're controlling a car either, especially one that can drive fast?

[wjs7744]

No, it didn't. Sorry for not making it clear, my point was how I came to realize that I enjoy things that I am conceptually opposed to, not to state that I know how holding a gun feels, because I don't.

The equation is the following:

a) McTiernan critizises the "erotic of guns" in his commentary
b) I agree with his opinion, and think "luckily I don't like that stuff"
c) Watching the scene, I come to the realization the I do like the stuff, even if I'm morally opposed to it.

Now, this was to agree with Darth Wong's opinion on how many people do not admit these impulses to themselves, by explaining a similar thing that happened to me. The point is not the gun holding, but accepting that you can like something you don't agree with.

There are many things out there that we shouldn't like, but we do (for whatever reasons). The bottom line (in my opinion) is that we must be mature enough both to control our impulses, and specially to accept that we have those impulses.


...and that was my point. Hope it's clearer now.

Oh, I see now. I wasn't sure whether you were one of those idiots who thinks that playing a computer game is in some way analogous to real combat experience, or whether you were calling me, Broomstick, DEATH etc. liars when we say we didnt get the whole "gun rush" thing.

Turns out you were neither, but making a legitimate (if somewhat obvious) point. Sorry for attacking you, but there are a hell of a lot of people who think that playing Doom or something makes them a weapons expert.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I'd be more worried about people who don't feel powerful when they pick up a lethal weapon. If you have command over life and death you are powerful and you should probably recognise that. Do they not feel "powerful" when they're controlling a car either, especially one that can drive fast?

I enjoy driving with the window open in my tiny little Volkswagon golf (1.6cc), but mainly I feel nervous and terrified when navigating or in dense urban areas or side-walks, with the mantra ("It only takes a moment of in-concentration") playing in my head like a broken record.
Then again, as I said before, I'm not a very good case sample

[Havok]

I'd be more worried about people who don't feel powerful when they pick up a lethal weapon. If you have command over life and death you are powerful and you should probably recognise that. Do they not feel "powerful" when they're controlling a car either, especially one that can drive fast?

I enjoy driving with the window open in my tiny little Volkswagon golf (1.6cc), but mainly I feel nervous and terrified when navigating or in dense urban areas or side-walks, with the mantra ("It only takes a moment of in-concentration") playing in my head like a broken record.
Then again, as I said before, I'm not a very good case sample

No, that is a good example. You are the other side of the coin. You are the person that picks up the gun and the power frightens you. Just like the driving makes you nervous.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I'd be more worried about people who don't feel powerful when they pick up a lethal weapon. If you have command over life and death you are powerful and you should probably recognise that. Do they not feel "powerful" when they're controlling a car either, especially one that can drive fast?

I enjoy driving with the window open in my tiny little Volkswagon golf (1.6cc), but mainly I feel nervous and terrified when navigating or in dense urban areas or side-walks, with the mantra ("It only takes a moment of in-concentration") playing in my head like a broken record.
Then again, as I said before, I'm not a very good case sample

No, that is a good example. You are the other side of the coin. You are the person that picks up the gun and the power frightens you. Just like the driving makes you nervous.

So my dreams of being a ruthless, power-mongering tyrant are doomed? . I was going to make you the court painter and everything...

[darthbob88]

No, that is a good example. You are the other side of the coin. You are the person that picks up the gun and the power frightens you. Just like the driving makes you nervous.

So my dreams of being a ruthless, power-mongering tyrant are doomed? . I was going to make you the court painter and everything...

Not quite; if you are anything like me in this respect, you are extremely aware of this power and the responsibility that comes with it. Only a momentary lapse in concentration while driving, and you, or somebody else, is a grease spot. Only a brief lapse in self-control while holding a firearm, and somebody has cranial ventilation. You know the awesome and terrible power you hold, and it makes you very Gods-damned careful about how you use it. By my lights, this is a desirable trait in a ruler.

[Winston Blake]

I think the feeling of power is a very individual thing.

On the contrary, I think that the willingness to admit that one recognizes this feeling of power is a very individual thing. The feeling of power is almost certainly universal, unless one is so fucking stupid that he honestly does not recognize that he objectively does now hold the power to very easily take the life of another human being.

And of course, most people are reluctant to describe it as a feeling of power, because there are too many people out there who will react like this imbecile:

This is like a fundamentalist saying 'Deep down you know God exists'. A response of 'No, I really don't' is replied to with 'You do, you just don't want to admit responsibility for your sins'.

Almost certainly universal? The vast majority of people who grew up around firearms first used a dinky little airgun, with which you'd be hard pressed to take a rabbit. Any mystique surrounding firearms leaks away in the 'airgun/.22' stage. On farms, guns are associated with ordinary pest control and target shooting, not murder.

Anyone with a driver's license holds the power to very easily take the life of another human being. Is it 'almost certainly universal' that this comes with 'Fuck yeah, I have command over life and death'? Having the power to kill does not automatically mean a feeling of power, which is different to simply having a feeling of responsibility.

For the record, not everyone responds with a "feeling of power" - I, for example, don't (and am, in fact, worried about people who do).

See how he tries to not-so-subtly insinuate that anyone who admits to this sense of empowerment must become intoxicated by it and then turn into a sociopath? Hooray for closeting your feelings in order to avoid bullshit pseudo-moral judgments!

What are you talking about? What sociopathy? In Australian gun culture at least, there's a universally derided class of people variously called 'townies', 'kewls' or simply 'wankers'. When someone is handed a gun and gets hyperactive about it ('Kewl dood!', etc), that person is a damn liability. 'Hoo-ah tacticool' bullshit is the most repulsive thing about American gun culture. Your 'feeling of power' is almost certainly not universal.

Rather than myself and others in this thread being in denial, I think that in this case you're projecting.