Thousands dead in Burmese Cyclone

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Post by Sidewinder »

Stuart wrote:Than Shwe is incredibly superstitious, he never does anything without consulting astrologers, so the same thought may well have occurred to him.
Is the source of this info publicly available, i.e., can I look it (and info on Chinese governmental leaders) up on the internet? Or will you have to kill me after I see it?
Doubt the Junta would like to have an ESG sitting less than a mile off the coast, though.
I think they'd love it. They'd be quite dumbstruck with delight. So would the Myanmarese people who keep writing to the US Embassy in Bangkok, pleading for some American air strikes.
Burmese people are PLEADING for the US military to bomb their own country?!

By the way, what does ESG stand for? Expeditionary strike group?
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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The aid included 38 tons of high-energy biscuits and arrived in Myanmar on Friday on two flights from Bangladesh and the United Arab Emirates.

"All of the food aid and equipment that we managed to get in has been confiscated," U.N. World Food Program spokesman Risley said.
I'm sure being an American barbarian has something to do with my total lack of comprehension in this matter, but could someone please explain the inhuman mindset that results in this bullshit? WHY do these tinpot governments refuse entry of aid, confiscate material, etc.? Yes, I can see that they might want to feed the army first, but seriously, WTF is it with denying the most basic needs of their subjects? What is it, in their twisted minds, that makes it OK to have tens of thousands hungry, thirsty people sleeping unsheltered among corpses and ruins? Are they conducting a dress rehearsal for hell? They view this as an opportunity to thin the herd? What?
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Post by Broomstick »

Sidewinder wrote:Burmese people are PLEADING for the US military to bomb their own country?
Well, not to in any way condone violence or warfare, but after we bombed the shit out of Japan we rebuilt the country and life improved for the Japanese. I can't imagine anyone wanting their country occupied by foreign forces but if you HAVE to be invaded there are worse folks than the US to put up with. And there's some chance we'll eventually go home. And we try to build weapons that blow up restricted targets instead of leveling entire cites. At least in the past couple decades (obviously, we do have weapons capable of leveling entire cities, too).

Some of these cesspit nations are as bad as anything we saw in WWII, where much of Europe was happy to see a new invading army, in hopes of something better than what they had. Since the US is known for being able to kick ass, well, you might as well call for the best, I suppose, so they can get the job done quick. I'm not sure these folks are aware of just how badly the US has at times messed up quick invade/occupation scenarios.
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Post by Lonestar »

Sidewinder wrote:
By the way, what does ESG stand for? Expeditionary strike group?
Yup. In that case, I rolled with the Bonnie Dick.
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Post by SpacedTeddyBear »

Broomstick wrote:
The aid included 38 tons of high-energy biscuits and arrived in Myanmar on Friday on two flights from Bangladesh and the United Arab Emirates.

"All of the food aid and equipment that we managed to get in has been confiscated," U.N. World Food Program spokesman Risley said.
I'm sure being an American barbarian has something to do with my total lack of comprehension in this matter, but could someone please explain the inhuman mindset that results in this bullshit? WHY do these tinpot governments refuse entry of aid, confiscate material, etc.? Yes, I can see that they might want to feed the army first, but seriously, WTF is it with denying the most basic needs of their subjects? What is it, in their twisted minds, that makes it OK to have tens of thousands hungry, thirsty people sleeping unsheltered among corpses and ruins? Are they conducting a dress rehearsal for hell? They view this as an opportunity to thin the herd? What?
If I were a complete douchebag meglomaniac, I actually would see this as an opportunity to thin the herd. A smaller civilian population is easier to control. What little populace that can be helped with existing and seized supplies will be grateful for the aid given by the government. Those who recieve nothing will die anyway so they'll just bitch and moan for the next few days before they get cholera and die.

Also, accepting foreign aid workers would also undermine their political and military hold on the country. Especially if some of those handing out supplies happens to be American Marines and other armed forces.
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Post by weemadando »

SpacedTeddyBear wrote: If I were a complete douchebag meglomaniac, I actually would see this as an opportunity to thin the herd. A smaller civilian population is easier to control. What little populace that can be helped with existing and seized supplies will be grateful for the aid given by the government. Those who recieve nothing will die anyway so they'll just bitch and moan for the next few days before they get cholera and die.
Congratulations, you've just detailed the precise plans of the Burmese junta.

After all, if you control the aid, you can make sure that it's only those pesky monks and other activists and their families who don't get food.
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Post by Sidewinder »

Cannibalism reportedly occured during the Great Leap Forward (see here). If the Burmese junta's concerns about saving face (not letting foreign nations think they're "easy meat" for conquest) is a reason to turn down foreign aid, they should consider how bad they'll look when word of THAT gets out.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Lonestar wrote:The Indonesian Military tried to do the same in the '04 Tsunami. Of course,t hat aid relief was facilitated by the American, french, Australian, and Singaporean militaries.

It turns out the Indonesian military had a hard time intimidating any of 'em. :)
Ah... more news suppressed by my glorious government.... Is there more to this?
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Sidewinder wrote:Cannibalism reportedly occured during the Great Leap Forward (see here). If the Burmese junta's concerns about saving face (not letting foreign nations think they're "easy meat" for conquest) is a reason to turn down foreign aid, they should consider how bad they'll look when word of THAT gets out.
Word gets out? To whom? Their own people probably detest the junta by now, but quite frankly, the big question is whether there's any fight left in them. After this incident, probably not a lot.

And the junta has never given a fibb about international opinion and are quite happy to have people dying on the streets if it takes that to maintain their power.
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Post by MichaelFerrariF1 »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080510/ap_ ... ar_cyclone
YANGON, Myanmar - Myanmar's military regime distributed international aid Saturday but plastered the boxes with the names of top generals in an apparent effort to turn the relief effort for last week's devastating cyclone into a propaganda exercise.

The United Nations sent in three more planes and several trucks loaded with aid, though the junta took over its first two shipments. The government agreed to let a U.S. cargo plane bring in supplies Monday, but foreign disaster experts still were being barred entry.

Despite international appeals to postpone a referendum on a controversial proposed constitution, voting began Saturday in all but the hardest hit parts of the country. With voters going to the polls, state-run television continuously ran images of top generals including junta leader, Senior Gen. Than Shwe, handing out boxes of aid at elaborate ceremonies.

"We have already seen regional commanders putting their names on the side of aid shipments from Asia, saying this was a gift from them and then distributing it in their region," said Mark Farmaner, director of Burma Campaign UK, which campaigns for human rights and democracy in the country.

"It is not going to areas where it is most in need," he said in London.

State media say 23,335 people died and 37,019 are missing from Cyclone Nargis, which submerged entire villages in the Irrawaddy delta. International aid organizations say the death toll could climb to more than 100,000 as conditions worsen.

The U.N. estimated that 1.5 million to 2 million people have been severely affected and has voiced concern about the disposal of bodies.

With phone lines down, roads blocked and electricity networks destroyed, it is nearly impossible to reach isolated areas in the delta, complicated by the lack of experienced international aid workers and equipment.

The junta has refused to grant access to foreign experts, saying it will only accept donations from foreign charities and governments, and then will deliver the aid on its own.

Despite such obstacles, the U.N. refugee agency sent its first aid convoy by land into Myanmar on Saturday and began airlifting a 110 tons of shelter supplies from its warehouse in Dubai, it said.

Two trucks carrying more than 20 tons of tents and plastic sheets for some 10,000 cyclone victims crossed into the country from northwestern Thailand, said the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees.

"This convoy marks a positive step in an aid effort so far marked by challenges and constraints," said Raymond Hall, UNHCRs Representative in Thailand. "We hope it opens up a possible corridor to allow more international aid to reach the cyclone victims."

A total of 23 international agencies were providing aid to people in the devastated areas, said Elisabeth Byrs, spokeswoman for the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

But a large number of organizations still were awaiting government clearance for more aid shipments, staff and transport.

"It's a race against the clock," Byrs said. "If the humanitarian aid does not get into the country on a larger scale, there's the risk of a second catastrophe," she said, adding that people could die from hunger and diseases.

Health experts have warned there was a great risk of diarrhea and cholera spreading because of the lack of clean drinking water and sanitation.

Farmaner suggested that aid be delivered to the country, also known as Burma, even if the regime does not give its permission.

"We have had a week to convince the regime to behave reasonably, and they are still blocking aid," he said. "So the international community needs to wake up and take bolder steps."

However, aid providers are unlikely to pursue unilateral deliveries like airdrops because of the diplomatic firestorm that it could set off.

So far, relief workers have reached 220,000 cyclone victims, only a small fraction of the number of people affected, the Red Cross said Friday. Three Red Cross aid flights loaded with shelter kits and other emergency supplies landed Friday without incident.

The international Red Cross sent 31 tons of relief goods from Geneva Friday evening, including pumps, generators, water tanks and other water treatment equipment, as well as basic health care for about 10,000 people and surgery material, according to spokesman Marcal Izard.

The shipment was designated for those in labor camps and prisons, he said. He said the agency planned to distribute the aid in coordination with the Myanmar Red Cross, which is the leading relief agency in Myanmar.

The government seized two planeloads of high-energy biscuits — enough to feed 95,000 people — sent by the U.N. World Food Program. Despite the seizure, the WFP was sending three more planes Saturday from Dubai, Cambodia and Italy, even though those could be confiscated, too.

"We are working around the clock with the authorities to ensure the kind of access that we need to ensure it goes to people that need it most," WFP spokesman Marcus Prior said in Bangkok, Thailand.

Richard Horsey, a spokesman for U.N. humanitarian operations, said an international presence is needed in Myanmar to look at the logistics of getting boats, helicopters and trucks into the delta area.

"That's a critical bottleneck that must be overcome at this point," he said in Bangkok.

Heavy rain forecast in the next week was certain to exacerbate the misery. Diplomats and aid groups warned the number of dead could eventually exceed 100,000 because of illnesses and said thousands of children may have been orphaned.

Survivors from one of the worst-affected areas, near the town of Bogalay, were among those fighting hunger, illness and wrenching loneliness.

"All my 28 family members have died," said Thein Myint, a 68-year-old fisherman who wept while describing how the cyclone swept away the rest of his family. "I am the only survivor."

Officials have said only one out of 10 people who are homeless, injured or threatened by disease and hunger have received some kind of aid since the cyclone hit May 3.

The government's abilities are limited. It has only a few dozen helicopters, most of which are small and old. It also has about 15 transport planes, primarily small jets unable to carry hundreds of tons of supplies.

"Not only don't they have the capacity to deliver assistance, they don't have experience," said Farmaner, the British aid worker. "It's already too late for many people. Every day of delays is costing thousands of lives."
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Post by MichaelFerrariF1 »

Whoop. Forgot to add my take.

So now the government's using this as a propaganda tool. They're making the generals look good and distributing relief to areas most likely to vote for them.
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Post by wautd »

The only thing that I see working at this point would be droping those supplies out of planes
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Post by Mayabird »

weemadando wrote:
SpacedTeddyBear wrote: If I were a complete douchebag meglomaniac, I actually would see this as an opportunity to thin the herd. A smaller civilian population is easier to control. What little populace that can be helped with existing and seized supplies will be grateful for the aid given by the government. Those who recieve nothing will die anyway so they'll just bitch and moan for the next few days before they get cholera and die.
Congratulations, you've just detailed the precise plans of the Burmese junta.

After all, if you control the aid, you can make sure that it's only those pesky monks and other activists and their families who don't get food.
Sometimes I think we might be giving them too much credit. Maybe they sincerely don't give a rat's ass about their population, and they just don't want those pesky foreigners with their weird ways coming in and bothering them.

Though determining who lives and who dies through controlling aid is a really basic thing. Even Mugabe did that with food aid, withholding from people who opposed him.


Would the people who saw generals' names on crates of food buy it? I mean, would they genuinely believe the propaganda, or just think sarcastic thoughts about it?
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Post by CJvR »

MichaelFerrariF1 wrote:So now the government's using this as a propaganda tool. They're making the generals look good and distributing relief to areas most likely to vote for them.
Well that is hardly surprising, cant keep up the illusion of the military valiantly guarding the border against the evil world if the world starts pouring in aid. IIRC the NorKs did the same during the massive famine - grain sacks marked by the doner nation had to be reloaded in unmarked sacks before it could be distributed, or sold.
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Post by RedImperator »

The Burmese junta is terrified of any foreign influence leaking into their country. I don't think they actually want hundreds of thousands of people to die. Even if they have no regard whatsoever for the lives of their subjects, the last thing a dictatorship needs is a populace that feels as if it has nothing to lose by fighting, and starving, homeless people have very little to lose indeed. So from their perspective, they're stuck--try to conduct humanitarian relief themselves and risk touching off a rebellion, or allow thousands of foreigners to crawl all over their country and spread their dangerous foreign ideas. It looks as if they've taken the former option, which just proves (as if any more proof was needed) that the Burmese government is easily one of the most despicable regimes in the world.
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Post by Stuart »

Sidewinder wrote:Is the source of this info publicly available, i.e., can I look it (and info on Chinese governmental leaders) up on the internet? Or will you have to kill me after I see it?
The best source for information on what is happening in Myanmar is HERE. The Irrawaddy is a very good insight into the Myanmarese regime and its little foibles.
Burmese people are PLEADING for the US military to bomb their own country?!
Sure. Look on it from their point of view. The Junta is sitting in a self-contained, isolated fortress called Napyidaw. An airstrike would take it out without causing as much as a broken window in the rest of the country. Then the Marines land, disperse the Tatmidaw (or the Thai Army crosses does likewise although for historical reasons the Myanmarese would prefer the Marines). It woudl take the Marines a couple of weeks at most, the RTA probably about the same, and everything in the garden is lovely. A bit idealistic and naive I agree but there we are.
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Post by CJvR »

Nice of the junta to isolate themselves in a perfect bombtarget. Good idea against internal insurrection, about as bad an idae as you can get against regular enemies.
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Post by weemadando »

Stuart wrote:
Burmese people are PLEADING for the US military to bomb their own country?!
Sure. Look on it from their point of view. The Junta is sitting in a self-contained, isolated fortress called Napyidaw. An airstrike would take it out without causing as much as a broken window in the rest of the country. Then the Marines land, disperse the Tatmidaw (or the Thai Army crosses does likewise although for historical reasons the Myanmarese would prefer the Marines). It woudl take the Marines a couple of weeks at most, the RTA probably about the same, and everything in the garden is lovely. A bit idealistic and naive I agree but there we are.
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Post by Lonestar »

Looks like the 'phibs are going in
The U.S. Navy is sending four ships on exercises in Thailand towards Myanmar, and French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said he was sending a naval ship with 1,500 tonnes of aid to arrive by the middle of next week.

The vessel, Le Mistral, is capable of carrying heavy-lift helicopters and was the same one used to evacuate French nationals from Lebanon in 2006.

State-run TV in Myanmar warned of "foreign interference" in a repeatedly broadcast message urging people to cast their ballots for the new constitution. Voting in cyclone-devastated areas, including Yangon, has been postponed for two weeks.

The broadcast showed five young women performers in colorful clothing and singing songs, including the lyrics: "let's go voting" and "come along for voting" with upbeat background music.

"To approve the state constitution is the national duty of the entire people today," state propaganda messages in Burmese and English said.

A written message on the screen said: "Let us all who oppose foreign interference and manipulation; oppose puppet government with strings of colonialists. Vote Yes."
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Post by Sidewinder »

"We have had a week to convince the regime to behave reasonably, and they are still blocking aid," he said. "So the international community needs to wake up and take bolder steps."
I hope this guy isn't advocating a coup to overthrow the junta. The last thing the Burmese need is civil war and political instability ON TOP OF a natural disaster, famine, and possibly an epidemic.

On a (barely) related note:
ZEENEWS wrote:Indian & French navies to conduct joint amphibious exercises

New Delhi, May 08: The Indian Navy will conduct its biggest ever amphibious exercises jointly with the French Navy in the east coast from May 14.

The Varuna-08 exercises will involve night beaching, carrying fully armed personnel with heavy armaments in the high seas, in which the landing ship docks, guided missile destroyers, missile corvette and submarines will take part.

Close on the heels of inducting a huge landing ship dock INS Jalshva from the US Navy, the Indian Navy plans to use the warship in the battle manoeuvres in which humanitarian intervention for disaster relief would also be practised.

This would be the second time in five years that the Indian Navy would be working out amphibious tactics with the French Navy. Four years ago Indian Navy practised amphibious warfare tactics with the US Navy's elite marine and seals forces off the Kochi coast.

Along with Jalshva, the 16,900 tonne Ship Landing dock capable of carrying more than 600 fully armed personnel, the French Navy would be fielding its largest amphibious warships Mistral in the war games.

The wargames, in which cooperative capability for humanitarian assistance and disaster relief would play a major part, come in the backdrop of Indian Navy and other naval forces playing a major humanitarian task in providing relief to cyclone devastated people in Myanmar, just a few hundred nautical miles away from Indian territorial water.

Bureau Report
Which raises the question, what'll happen if there's an... altercation... between the Burmese governmental forces and the Indian military units providing relief?
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Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Post by Pelranius »

The Indians would bitch slap the Tatmadaw into the 18th century then.

I wonder how viable it would be for the junta to try fighting a guerrilla war against China, India and Thailand? It's not as if there's too many people outside of the officer corps who'd probably actually take to the jungles.
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Post by Mayabird »

The Red Cross is now estimating 128,000 deaths plus 2.5 million currently in need of aid.

Meanwhile...
Myanmar Military Accused Of Stealing And Diverting International Aid
5/14/2008 10:17 PM ET

(RTTNews) - Wednesday, several relief organizations said that International aid coming into Myanmar for the victims of Cyclone Nargis was being stolen, diverted or warehoused by the army.

Local government officials have been accused of selling aid and bribing residents for making profit, according to local sources. Officers of the local township are allegedly refusing families their quota of cooking oil and rice and instead diverting it to the black market.


The directors of the organizations, however, were not willing to be quoted for fear of invoking the military junta's anger and further jeopardizing their relief operations. Marcel Wagner, country director of the Adventist Development and relief Agency, confirmed that aid was being misused or diverted by the army. The military has barred any credentialed diplomat or aid worker from accompanying the aid. There were rumors that high-energy biscuits were replaced with inferior ones.

The World Health Organization-WHO, however, said that their medical supplies were neither diverted nor replaced with substandard items.

More aid is regularly arriving at Yangon, but international rescue teams and disaster-relief experts are being kept away from the country. A small French team has arrived in the country, but it was not clear whether they had received official permission. About 160 relief workers are expected from neighboring countries, including China, India, Bangladesh, and Thailand.

The United Nations has sharply increased its estimate of those severely affected by Burma's cyclone to 2.5m people up from the 1.5m previously thought to be in need, following the storm 12 days ago.

According to the latest Burmese official figures, the death toll stood at almost 38,500 with 27,838 more missing but the Red Cross warned as many as 128,000 could be dead.

Meanwhile, U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon convened talks with donors and the Association of South-East Asian Nations in New York on Wednesday following pressure from Britain to call an emergency summit.

Ban said he "regretted" the U.N. had spent more time arranging rather than delivering help, amid claims of roadblocks being put by the junta. "Even though the Myanmar government has shown some sense of flexibility, at this time it's far, far too short," he said.

Fears of a fresh storm eased on Wednesday as forecasters said a tropical depression off Burma's coast had weakened and was unlikely to brew into a cyclone. The Joint Typhoon Warning Center in Hawaii downgraded the cyclone risk to "poor".

by RTT Staff Writer
Well, at least they might not get hit with a second one now.
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