Soviet-style Breadlines come to America.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Which is why of course there was plentiful amounts of high calorie meat in the USSR in the same period?

I forgot a word back there, I meant to say invest in more bread ovens, that’s the real Soviet failure but its result was an actual shortage of bread. As Stas already pointed out they could fatten up cattle because they imported feed for them, which would not be fit for human consumption, especially if you couldn’t bake it. Still not the same thing as a food bank for the poor having a line.

And yet it was a failure of government planning that affected the lowest sectors of the economy, yes? Just like in the United States, it is a failure of government planning that has affected the lowest sectors of the economy, yes? For the Soviets, it was a failure to invest in the necessary resources--for the United States, it was the conscious decision to divert food production to fueling vehicles for the very rich, intentionally forcing the poor into this position (even if not knowingly because of their ignorance). In both cases, the governments in question decided they had better priorities than giving a fuck about the lowest sectors of the economy.

[Sikon]

Wheat prices over this year:



Up until the bubble collapsed, it was profitable to delay selling wheat to make more profit by waiting for higher prices, decreasing the supply at the time and contributing to raising prices higher. Such increased the effect of a temporary drop in supply, leading to the rise from January to March before it went back down between March and June.

Longer history:



Yields per unit area are more fundamental than prices, not influenced as much by temporary variations or by commodity speculation going from $13+ billion in 2003 to reach actually $260+ billion in March of this year:

[Executor32]

Here, at least, there are two food banks. One is a church-run one, while the other (which has a larger supply and gives larger rations) is government-run. Neither of them charges anything, but your name and information are entered into a list at each of them, such that you can only get your free food at each one once a month. That's not really a problem, though, given that I alone got 3 sizable boxes of food the last time I was at the gov't one. Both also base their rations on how many are living in your household.

[Surlethe]

Seriously, all of the food banks are tied to religious institutions? That's not the case here.

It shouldn't be surprising, given the typical right-wing attitude toward charity -- i.e., that it is exclusively the province of religious organizations. It's better than having no food banks at all, but I've argued for a long time that a government system is preferable to a non-profit system because the government is obligated to cover everybody, while a non-profit system is not.

[Dark Hellion]

One of my girlfriend's friends came over to America from a wealthy family in the Ukraine. She talks about Soviet style bread lines. When people wealthy enough to pick up and leave the fucking country have to stand in breadlines, then we are starting to get Soviet style. Otherwise, yes there are problems in America, especially when it comes to any socialistic system like food banks. It is because of America's piss poor social safety nets and are moronically lax attitudes about such things. It will get worse. Being a drama queen about it makes you look like a shrill bitch. This is the kind of overacting bullshit we pan Hillary on. Why do you expect Skimmer or IP to treat it differently, because it's you?

[Darth Wong]

Seriously, all of the food banks are tied to religious institutions? That's not the case here.

It shouldn't be surprising, given the typical right-wing attitude toward charity -- i.e., that it is exclusively the province of religious organizations. It's better than having no food banks at all, but I've argued for a long time that a government system is preferable to a non-profit system because the government is obligated to cover everybody, while a non-profit system is not.

We have non-governmental, non-religious food banks here, although we also have a more generous governmental social welfare system than you do. The big problem with letting religion tie charity to itself is that it increases the social influence of religion, and once you give influence to religion, it starts trying to tell people what they can and can't do with their penises.

Hezbollah and Hamas did the same thing in Palestine and Lebanon: the run all of the charities, and they use them in order to recruit people into their cause and increase their socio-political influence. Sure, you might argue that they're also doing it out of the good of their hearts, but if that's all it is, why is it so important for them to take credit for it?

In the Bible, there is a passage where Jesus remarks on the rich man who makes a very public show of his charity. Ironically, the Christian churches themselves do that; if they contribute to charity, they make damned sure you know who did it.

[Big Phil]

Seriously, all of the food banks are tied to religious institutions? That's not the case here.

It shouldn't be surprising, given the typical right-wing attitude toward charity -- i.e., that it is exclusively the province of religious organizations. It's better than having no food banks at all, but I've argued for a long time that a government system is preferable to a non-profit system because the government is obligated to cover everybody, while a non-profit system is not.

We have non-governmental, non-religious food banks here, although we also have a more generous governmental social welfare system than you do. The big problem with letting religion tie charity to itself is that it increases the social influence of religion, and once you give influence to religion, it starts trying to tell people what they can and can't do with their penises.

Hezbollah and Hamas did the same thing in Palestine and Lebanon: the run all of the charities, and they use them in order to recruit people into their cause and increase their socio-political influence. Sure, you might argue that they're also doing it out of the good of their hearts, but if that's all it is, why is it so important for them to take credit for it?

In the Bible, there is a passage where Jesus remarks on the rich man who makes a very public show of his charity. Ironically, the Christian churches themselves do that; if they contribute to charity, they make damned sure you know who did it.

I don't know where people claiming all food banks are tied to religious institutions are getting their data. Two of the largest food networks in the country - United Way and America's Second Harvest - are not affiliated with any particular religious institution. Many of them originated in religious institutions (United Way), but they are non-profit, non-denominational today.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

One of my girlfriend's friends came over to America from a wealthy family in the Ukraine. She talks about Soviet style bread lines. When people wealthy enough to pick up and leave the fucking country have to stand in breadlines, then we are starting to get Soviet style. Otherwise, yes there are problems in America, especially when it comes to any socialistic system like food banks. It is because of America's piss poor social safety nets and are moronically lax attitudes about such things. It will get worse. Being a drama queen about it makes you look like a shrill bitch. This is the kind of overacting bullshit we pan Hillary on. Why do you expect Skimmer or IP to treat it differently, because it's you?

Jesus fucking christ, you stupid dolt, when have I said anything about the situation about to fall apart right now? The actual fact was that this has been continuously manipulated. And by the way, the modern-day Ukraine is not part of the Soviet Union--which has actually, at least initially, made things worse for them, since they were no longer part of the integrated economy of the USSR. I repeat, things got worse after the USSR collapsed, and if she came over from the Independent Ukraine that is the actual interpretation.

At any rate, I said there would be bread lines, and there are bread lines. Nice long ones. I love the massive amounts of spin you throw up over this fact. Does this mean our society is falling apart? Fuck no; the Soviets were launching Mir at the same time they had bread lines. I'm far more optimistic than Valdemar is.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

More to the point, these problems would go away if we just halted production of ethanol out of corn, and would not reappear for at least decades.

[Big Phil]

At any rate, I said there would be bread lines, and there are bread lines. Nice long ones. I love the massive amounts of spin you throw up over this fact. Does this mean our society is falling apart? Fuck no; the Soviets were launching Mir at the same time they had bread lines. I'm far more optimistic than Valdemar is.

Bread lines at food banks = Soviet style bread lines?

What about the 90%+ of the country that gets their bread from the supermarket rather than food banks? I haven't noticed any breadlines there.

[Sea Skimmer]

And yet it was a failure of government planning that affected the lowest sectors of the economy, yes? Just like in the United States, it is a failure of government planning that has affected the lowest sectors of the economy, yes? For the Soviets, it was a failure to invest in the necessary resources--for the United States, it was the conscious decision to divert food production to fueling vehicles for the very rich, intentionally forcing the poor into this position (even if not knowingly because of their ignorance).

Your assuming that rising food prices are all from biofuel; that’s a much a brainbug as the idea that boifuel was practical in the first place, thank you mornic media for spreading both ideas the world around.

Numerous, interrelated factors are driving up food prices, the US government does not control them all and many of the controls it does have are indirect. Reality is that biofuels have already hit a production wall in the US, and many ethanol plants actually shutdown because of the impracticality of transporting the product, and yet food prices keep going up. He’s the list of what’s really screwing us as far as I can tell.

• Biofuel production
• Growing world population
• A richer population in China and India, which is buying immensely more milk and meat products at a disproportionate cost in grain for feed. China is actually mass importing powdered milk from the US now and its demand is still growing 25% per year.
• Rising fuel prices
• Rising Fertilizer prices (this is partly from biofuels, partly from simple rises in demand and the shutdown of Iraqi production)
• Devaluation of US currency driving up the price of everything on top of other increases
• Massive speculation on commodities markets, driving up the price of everything far beyond what supply and demand would dictate, this is a result of the US dollar and other investment markets taking a giant dump.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

And yet it was a failure of government planning that affected the lowest sectors of the economy, yes? Just like in the United States, it is a failure of government planning that has affected the lowest sectors of the economy, yes? For the Soviets, it was a failure to invest in the necessary resources--for the United States, it was the conscious decision to divert food production to fueling vehicles for the very rich, intentionally forcing the poor into this position (even if not knowingly because of their ignorance).

Your assuming that rising food prices are all from biofuel; that’s a much a brainbug as the idea that boifuel was practical in the first place, thank you mornic media for spreading both ideas the world around.

Numerous, interrelated factors are driving up food prices, the US government does not control them all and many of the controls it does have are indirect. Reality is that biofuels have already hit a production wall in the US, and many ethanol plants actually shutdown because of the impracticality of transporting the product, and yet food prices keep going up. He’s the list of what’s really screwing us as far as I can tell.

• Biofuel production
• Growing world population
• A richer population in China and India, which is buying immensely more milk and meat products at a disproportionate cost in grain for feed. China is actually mass importing powdered milk from the US now and its demand is still growing 25% per year.
• Rising fuel prices
• Rising Fertilizer prices (this is partly from biofuels, partly from simple rises in demand and the shutdown of Iraqi production)
• Devaluation of US currency driving up the price of everything on top of other increases
• Massive speculation on commodities markets, driving up the price of everything far beyond what supply and demand would dictate, this is a result of the US dollar and other investment markets taking a giant dump.

A fair enough point; the addition of biofuels, however, was nonetheless an example of government stupidity causing the lower classes hardship. I don't think anyone is prepared to deny that, except maybe Ossus and his charming statement to the effect that if supply decreases, demand will reduce to meet it--i.e., it's all okay, economics works, once enough people starve to death, we'll have enough food again!

[The Duchess of Zeon]

At any rate, I said there would be bread lines, and there are bread lines. Nice long ones. I love the massive amounts of spin you throw up over this fact. Does this mean our society is falling apart? Fuck no; the Soviets were launching Mir at the same time they had bread lines. I'm far more optimistic than Valdemar is.

Bread lines at food banks = Soviet style bread lines?

What about the 90%+ of the country that gets their bread from the supermarket rather than food banks? I haven't noticed any breadlines there.

Neither were food shortages universal in the USSR.

[Ender]

Seriously, all of the food banks are tied to religious institutions? That's not the case here.

The fact that they attempt to tie charity to religiosity hardly exonerates them from any of the criticisms being leveled against them.

The one I used to work at (my parents had me working from age 12 be it charity, under the table, or part time) was technically religious - it got a few donations from the church across the street, was built in a former church itself and had a cross out front, but most of the money to keep it open was private donations, the workers were mostly volunteer retirees (in fact I think everyone was a volunteer), and the bulk of the food came from the local groceries and megastores. We were religious in name only.

[Big Phil]

At any rate, I said there would be bread lines, and there are bread lines. Nice long ones. I love the massive amounts of spin you throw up over this fact. Does this mean our society is falling apart? Fuck no; the Soviets were launching Mir at the same time they had bread lines. I'm far more optimistic than Valdemar is.

Bread lines at food banks = Soviet style bread lines?

What about the 90%+ of the country that gets their bread from the supermarket rather than food banks? I haven't noticed any breadlines there.

Neither were food shortages universal in the USSR.

I'm not sure anyone's claiming they were (universal), simply that they were fairly commonplace among everyday people (in the USSR). I think you're trying too hard to make your theory fit the facts, but the facts simply don't support your theory.

[Sea Skimmer]

A fair enough point; the addition of biofuels, however, was nonetheless an example of government stupidity causing the lower classes hardship. I don't think anyone is prepared to deny that, except maybe Ossus and his charming statement to the effect that if supply decreases, demand will reduce to meet it--i.e., it's all okay, economics works, once enough people starve to death, we'll have enough food again!

I forgot one too, destruction of croplands, and not just from US urban sprawl, be it desertification in Africa, huge dams in China (The Three Georges Dam wiped out the top quality farmland of 2 million Chinese, the land some of them got as replacement is 1/6th as productive) or rising sea level in Bangladesh our raw ability to make food at any price is being destroyed. Can’t forget the exhaustion of many world fishers on top of it all.

Biofuels have been distinctly unhelpful, but people often overlook the reason why ethanol first came to prominence. For years we’ve been using oxygenated gasoline in the US, on the basis that this ever so slowly reduces carbon monoxide emissions and it replaces lead for preventing engine knock. However the main oxygenate being used, MTBE, was found to be contaminating groundwater in the late 1990s, and by the early 2000s numerous states and local jurisdictions had banned its use.

Ethanol, which has been in limited production for decades (though the US imported most of its requirements from Brazil), and was a relatively good replacement for the MTBE so oil companies started using it. Naturally they decided that it would also make sense to start making the stuff in the US, since ethonal is a bitch to transport any distance. Oil prices started rising fast around the same time and it wasn’t long before the media blitz, mostly driven by that wonderful farm lobby, was on to proclaim that ethanol was the fuel of the future. The politicians and the media and most of the population swallowed the BS hook line and sinker. As it stands now E85 is hard to find, impossible to find in some states, and most ethanol is being used in a blend of 2-10% of as an oxygenate.

Its worth noting that we’ve had alternative miracle fuels come onto the market before. Methanol was a big craze for a while in the 1970s, until people realized that it eats up rubber valve and engine seals (so does ethanol, though not as badly given the typical 2-10% blend) causing thousands of engines to be destroyed from the inside out.

[Sea Skimmer]

Seriously, all of the food banks are tied to religious institutions? That's not the case here.

Other then one or two which are subsidized by local government all the ones I’ve seen had some kind of direct religious tie in for support, which is damn useful since it makes recruiting volunteers easier.

The fact that they attempt to tie charity to religiosity hardly exonerates them from any of the criticisms being leveled against them.

I don’t get what you mean. What criticisms? Against who? For what? You certainly cannot make any sweeping criticisms of religiously supported food banks, especially not ones which are supported by multiple denominations and have no agenda save helping those most in need. The one I worked at was supported by numerous different denominations including Jews and Muslims besides of course numerous different Christian denominations and my own Quaker meeting. I’ve never heard of one that would turn away people of different religions if that’s what you’re trying to suggest… at the place I worked we wouldn’t even ask about that kind of thing.

Now Catholic sponsored intercity soup kitchens, those can be a different story, many of them are more or less explicitly for winning converts.

[Broomstick]

Seriously, all of the food banks are tied to religious institutions? That's not the case here.

Not in the Chicago area, although not surprisingly many religious institutions are active in charity work.

The Greater Chicago Food Depository is a charitable, not-for-profit organization that is not an appendage of any church, synagogue, mosque, or other religious institution. Among other things, they have the resources to safely collect, store short-term, and distribute perishable food items, something many food banks do not have, enabling them to distribute meat, fish, and fresh fruits/vegetables every day. Those unused pastries and breads mentioned by some people recently on this forum that are tossed? They can collect and distribute those. Catering services that have last minute cancellations - the sort where the food is already prepared but not yet served - can call these people up and donate the unused food, both hot and cold, to be distributed to the hungry. This results in some homeless shelter and other destitute people enjoying some gourmet eats on occasion, but who the hell cares? Lobster and filet mignon are good sources of protein!

Back when I was receiving food boxes I found that most churches/other religious types didn't give a fuck what your personal beliefs were. You got the occasional sanctimonious twit, and just once I ran into a church that insisted you be a member before getting their help, but it was rare.

I don't have a problem with the various religious types donating to the needy - charity towards the poor is one of the positives of religion when it's genuine. (False charity is a different matter)

[Broomstick]

Which is why of course there was plentiful amounts of high calorie meat in the USSR in the same period?

I forgot a word back there, I meant to say invest in more bread ovens, that’s the real Soviet failure but its result was an actual shortage of bread. As Stas already pointed out they could fatten up cattle because they imported feed for them, which would not be fit for human consumption, especially if you couldn’t bake it. Still not the same thing as a food bank for the poor having a line.

And yet it was a failure of government planning that affected the lowest sectors of the economy, yes? Just like in the United States, it is a failure of government planning that has affected the lowest sectors of the economy, yes?

No - because the US does not plan its economy in any way near the way that the USSR did. I'd say that for the USSR it was a failure of the plan, for the US it is a failure to plan at all, not to mention a dismantling of the social safety net.

For the Soviets, it was a failure to invest in the necessary resources--for the United States, it was the conscious decision to divert food production to fueling vehicles for the very rich, intentionally forcing the poor into this position (even if not knowingly because of their ignorance). In both cases, the governments in question decided they had better priorities than giving a fuck about the lowest sectors of the economy.

Biofuels did not create food pantries. They may be exacerbating the situation, but they are but one factor among many.

Even if we waved a magic wand and tomorrow we had unlimited fossil fuels on tap for prices not since since 1920 there would still be food pantries because it is the nature of capitalism to have losers as well as winners. The "New Deal" constructed safety nets for those who "lost" in the economy, some (though not all) of which were dismantled over the past two decades. Even in the most prosperous times people fall on hard times. I am not alarmed by the existence of such things a food pantries (at the moment, in fact, I'm sort of relieved we have them even if I'm not yet to the point of using them myself), to me, what is important is the percentage of the population using them. A sudden jump, or a significant rise, is MUCH more significant whether there are lines around the block or not.

[FireNexus]

Seriously, all of the food banks are tied to religious institutions? That's not the case here.

It shouldn't be surprising, given the typical right-wing attitude toward charity -- i.e., that it is exclusively the province of religious organizations. It's better than having no food banks at all, but I've argued for a long time that a government system is preferable to a non-profit system because the government is obligated to cover everybody, while a non-profit system is not.

We have non-governmental, non-religious food banks here, although we also have a more generous governmental social welfare system than you do. The big problem with letting religion tie charity to itself is that it increases the social influence of religion, and once you give influence to religion, it starts trying to tell people what they can and can't do with their penises.

Hezbollah and Hamas did the same thing in Palestine and Lebanon: the run all of the charities, and they use them in order to recruit people into their cause and increase their socio-political influence. Sure, you might argue that they're also doing it out of the good of their hearts, but if that's all it is, why is it so important for them to take credit for it?

In the Bible, there is a passage where Jesus remarks on the rich man who makes a very public show of his charity. Ironically, the Christian churches themselves do that; if they contribute to charity, they make damned sure you know who did it.

http://www.philabundance.org/about/about.asp

Philabundance is a non-profit, non-religious, non-government food bank, and they say they're the largest in the reason. I think claims of it being exclusively the province of churches in america are exaggerated.

[apocolypse]

One of my girlfriend's friends came over to America from a wealthy family in the Ukraine. She talks about Soviet style bread lines. When people wealthy enough to pick up and leave the fucking country have to stand in breadlines, then we are starting to get Soviet style. Otherwise, yes there are problems in America, especially when it comes to any socialistic system like food banks. It is because of America's piss poor social safety nets and are moronically lax attitudes about such things. It will get worse. Being a drama queen about it makes you look like a shrill bitch. This is the kind of overacting bullshit we pan Hillary on. Why do you expect Skimmer or IP to treat it differently, because it's you?

Jesus fucking christ, you stupid dolt, when have I said anything about the situation about to fall apart right now? The actual fact was that this has been continuously manipulated. And by the way, the modern-day Ukraine is not part of the Soviet Union--which has actually, at least initially, made things worse for them, since they were no longer part of the integrated economy of the USSR. I repeat, things got worse after the USSR collapsed, and if she came over from the Independent Ukraine that is the actual interpretation.

At any rate, I said there would be bread lines, and there are bread lines. Nice long ones. I love the massive amounts of spin you throw up over this fact. Does this mean our society is falling apart? Fuck no; the Soviets were launching Mir at the same time they had bread lines. I'm far more optimistic than Valdemar is.

But you didn't say there were just bread lines though. The very OP and title of the thread refers to them being "Soviet-style", which is a bit of a difference.

[Darth Wong]

I'm not sure anyone's claiming they were (universal), simply that they were fairly commonplace among everyday people (in the USSR). I think you're trying too hard to make your theory fit the facts, but the facts simply don't support your theory.

You know, when someone mentions a "Soviet-style military parade", everyone understands that it's just a military parade which looks like a Soviet one. No one insists that all of the underlying socio-economic conditions must also match. Why the different standard for a "Soviet-style breadline?" This smells to me like a goalpost which has been recently moved.

[FireNexus]

Ghetto edit: Largest in the region, not reason.

[Elfdart]

There are, objectively, bread lines in America, fullstop.

Read your own freaking title. You said breadlines come to America, implying that it’s a result of very recent problems. That is not true in any way, it’s not like all these food banks sprung into existence in the last three years.

Did they always have long lineups, even during the boom times? If so, that's absofuckinglutely shameful.

Mostly food banks ebb and flow with the economy, as well as things like weather (in very hot and very cold weather, the very poor have to decide whether to pay for heating/cooling, or food). But there's always a number of people (mostly elderly, indigent, single parents) who collect at food banks.

I'm old enough to remember when the government gave away surplus cheese back in 1981-82 (why not? they subsidized farmers to overproduce, and didn't want to pay to store it forever) and in typical Republitard fashion, Von Reagan's chief flunkie Edwin Meese insulted the people who got it as deadbeats, with his infamous "Poor people are poor by choice." line.

So yes, we've always had them and yes people always shit on the poor for a cheap laugh and yes, self-centered people ignore and downplay the problem because it doesn't affect them. And yes, it's disgraceful.

[Big Phil]

I'm not sure anyone's claiming they were (universal), simply that they were fairly commonplace among everyday people (in the USSR). I think you're trying too hard to make your theory fit the facts, but the facts simply don't support your theory.

You know, when someone mentions a "Soviet-style military parade", everyone understands that it's just a military parade which looks like a Soviet one. No one insists that all of the underlying socio-economic conditions must also match. Why the different standard for a "Soviet-style breadline?" This smells to me like a goalpost which has been recently moved.

I interpreted the claim as "Soviet-style breadlines" will be a common sight. Is that not the position Duchess is taking? Is the claim that Soviet-style breadlines will simply occur? In that case, her claim is proven; of course, food lines have been seen before, so I'm not sure how accurate it is to claim that because food kitchens are occasionally forcing people to line up for food, we have "Soviet-style breadlines."