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Post by General Zod »

CaptainZoidberg wrote: Well, if it were 100% about controlling sex and 0% about the fetus, then why do they use those pictures of aborted fetuses to protest? You could say that the people protesting know that such a message will sell better than "Don't have sex", but why would they use the tactic at all if there weren't moderate Pro-Life people who would be swayed by it?
Because it drives home the message to not have sex unless you plan on providing for the child because otherwise you're responsible for murder. Screwy reasoning but it's what they use.
I phrased that poorly. I meant to ask why they would want to protect the rights of anything before the fetal stage where there's a significant brain. I'd imagine that they're just woefully ignorant and think that there's something resembling a full human being from day one.
As far as most fundies are concerned, life begins at conception. When you consider their line of thought usually goes "Abortion is murder. Life begins at conception. Ergo, any attempts to have sex can result in pregnancy and killing any fertilized egg is murder." it's not difficult to see why they're protesting.
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Post by SirNitram »

CaptainZoidberg wrote:
SirNitram wrote: You assume there are such moderates, I really do wonder if they exist. But the reason is simple: IT IS NOT ABOUT THE FETUS. IT IS ABOUT CONTROLLING SEX.
Well, if it were 100% about controlling sex and 0% about the fetus, then why do they use those pictures of aborted fetuses to protest? You could say that the people protesting know that such a message will sell better than "Don't have sex", but why would they use the tactic at all if there weren't moderate Pro-Life people who would be swayed by it?
Dear gods, you can't be this stupid, can you? Moderates aren't brought in by pictures of mutilated unborns. It is done for one purpose.. To demonize and antagonize. Do you understand why they go so extreme? Because society is Golden Rule dominated because thought is hard. If the anti-Woman coalition is this extreme, it's easier to pass off stuff like Purity Balls, deny contraception(Which increases the abortion rate), abstinence-only sex ed(Which increases teen pregnancy), expanding the 'No abortions' window(It's currently founded on science, the last trimester, because that's when there's a brain. People keep wanting to push it back), and so forth.

The farther to the right one side pulls, the 'middle', which the drooling morons will decide must be reasonable, also moves right.
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Post by CaptainZoidberg »

General Zod wrote:Because it drives home the message to not have sex unless you plan on providing for the child because otherwise you're responsible for murder. Screwy reasoning but it's what they use.
When I first learned what abortion was, my first gut reaction was that abortion was murder and should be illegal. But after I researched it some, I realized that brain development was a very gradual process, and even simple things like the ability to feel pain, electrical activity in the brain, or a cerebral cortex didn't really come online until well into the 2nd trimester.

It seems like fundamentalists tend to be Pro-Life because they just form a strong opinion based on the gut instinct, without doing any research. Of course I've only met a handful of Pro-Life people so I'm in no position to generalize about the entire movement.
As far as most fundies are concerned, life begins at conception. When you consider their line of thought usually goes "Abortion is murder. Life begins at conception. Ergo, any attempts to have sex can result in pregnancy and killing any fertilized egg is murder." it's not difficult to see why they're protesting.
I wonder if they think that's when they think that the soul is created, or if there is some deeper reasoning behind it.
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Post by CaptainZoidberg »

SirNitram wrote: Dear gods, you can't be this stupid, can you? Moderates aren't brought in by pictures of mutilated unborns. It is done for one purpose.. To demonize and antagonize. Do you understand why they go so extreme? Because society is Golden Rule dominated because thought is hard. If the anti-Woman coalition is this extreme, it's easier to pass off stuff like Purity Balls, deny contraception(Which increases the abortion rate), abstinence-only sex ed(Which increases teen pregnancy), expanding the 'No abortions' window(It's currently founded on science, the last trimester, because that's when there's a brain. People keep wanting to push it back), and so forth.
When one extreme is "Abortion is murder, ban all abortion", and the other extreme is "Abortion should be free and legal", the golden mean is "Ban some abortions", which to most people means banning abortion for birth control but keeping it for rape or where the woman's life is threatened.

It really doesn't matter whether they show pictures of aborted fetuses or not, their position is still "Ban all abortions", and the golden mean between the two positions is still "Ban some abortions".
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Post by SirNitram »

CaptainZoidberg wrote:
SirNitram wrote: Dear gods, you can't be this stupid, can you? Moderates aren't brought in by pictures of mutilated unborns. It is done for one purpose.. To demonize and antagonize. Do you understand why they go so extreme? Because society is Golden Rule dominated because thought is hard. If the anti-Woman coalition is this extreme, it's easier to pass off stuff like Purity Balls, deny contraception(Which increases the abortion rate), abstinence-only sex ed(Which increases teen pregnancy), expanding the 'No abortions' window(It's currently founded on science, the last trimester, because that's when there's a brain. People keep wanting to push it back), and so forth.
When one extreme is "Abortion is murder, ban all abortion", and the other extreme is "Abortion should be free and legal", the golden mean is "Ban some abortions", which to most people means banning abortion for birth control but keeping it for rape or where the woman's life is threatened.
And then they get to start on birth control, and thus we get that the Pill Kills movement.

And when "The Pill is murder, ban all contraceptives" and the other extreme is equally unfounded in reality as your above claim, we will again see more restrictions.
It really doesn't matter whether they show pictures of aborted fetuses or not, their position is still "Ban all abortions", and the golden mean between the two positions is still "Ban some abortions".
You keep pretending like it doesn't matter that they demonize and antagonize, which is going to have a chilling effect on local women who might have been thinking about actually having some choice over their bodies as opposed to letting it all be in control of old men.
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Post by Plekhanov »

If it's not about sex then why do they oppose contraception and decent sex ed and push anti contraception propaganda?

If you really wanted to reduce the number of 'babies murdered' by abortions you should obviously favour decent sex ed, they have just that in Holland and consequently have one of the lowest abortion rates in the world, far far lower than the US for example.

However 'pro-lifers' do everything they can to sabotage sex ed inevitably pushing up the abortion rate.
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Post by Gerald Tarrant »

Plekhanov wrote:If it's not about sex then why do they oppose contraception and decent sex ed and push anti contraception propaganda?

If you really wanted to reduce the number of 'babies murdered' by abortions you should obviously favour decent sex ed, they have just that in Holland and consequently have one of the lowest abortion rates in the world, far far lower than the US for example.

However 'pro-lifers' do everything they can to sabotage sex ed inevitably pushing up the abortion rate.
And of course they're trying to interfere with the simplest of contraceptives, which will force people to the only other alternative: abortion. It's like they want to force up the abortion numbers so they can feel justified in condemning American deviancy.
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Post by CaptainZoidberg »

SirNitram wrote: And then they get to start on birth control, and thus we get that the Pill Kills movement.
One quote on the ALL website really made me think:

"UNICEF... promotes birth control, abortion and sterilization. Even though there is a lot of good work being done by the organization, it is impossible to ensure that the donation from Pampers will, in fact, go toward vaccinations that will save children and will not instead be used to kill children."

Wait so are they saying that sperm cells count as children now (if using a condom is genocide). Why not make every cell in the body a unique person?
You keep pretending like it doesn't matter that they demonize and antagonize, which is going to have a chilling effect on local women who might have been thinking about actually having some choice over their bodies as opposed to letting it all be in control of old men.
Just from taking a quick glance at the "ALL" website, it looks like most of the focus is on "Saving Babies", and not on preventing sexual deviancy.
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Post by SirNitram »

CaptainZoidberg wrote:
SirNitram wrote: And then they get to start on birth control, and thus we get that the Pill Kills movement.
One quote on the ALL website really made me think:

"UNICEF... promotes birth control, abortion and sterilization. Even though there is a lot of good work being done by the organization, it is impossible to ensure that the donation from Pampers will, in fact, go toward vaccinations that will save children and will not instead be used to kill children."

Wait so are they saying that sperm cells count as children now (if using a condom is genocide). Why not make every cell in the body a unique person?
It's about controlling sex, which is ultimately controlling women and enforcing Puritanical standards. This is not new. This has been the hallmark of the Religious Right for a long, long time.
You keep pretending like it doesn't matter that they demonize and antagonize, which is going to have a chilling effect on local women who might have been thinking about actually having some choice over their bodies as opposed to letting it all be in control of old men.
Just from taking a quick glance at the "ALL" website, it looks like most of the focus is on "Saving Babies", and not on preventing sexual deviancy.
Because men are allowed all the sexual deviancy they like as long as it's not with another man. It's women who they seek to control. My god, are you blind to history, to not notice this undercurrent?
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Post by General Zod »

CaptainZoidberg wrote: Wait so are they saying that sperm cells count as children now (if using a condom is genocide). Why not make every cell in the body a unique person?
"Every sperm is sacred every sperm is great, if a sperm gets wasted God becomes quite irate"

Just from taking a quick glance at the "ALL" website, it looks like most of the focus is on "Saving Babies", and not on preventing sexual deviancy.
Because that's totally not just window-dressing to make their goals seem reasonable to gullible idiots like you. :lol: :lol:
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Post by Lusankya »

CaptainZoidberg wrote: Just from taking a quick glance at the "ALL" website, it looks like most of the focus is on "Saving Babies", and not on preventing sexual deviancy.
If they were really keen on saving babies, they'd be better off supporting improved healthcare for mothers and babies. Except they won't because that's socialist and communist and evil.
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Post by sketerpot »

CaptainZoidberg wrote:I've never really understood why some Pro-Life people oppose the morning after pill. How can you give the fetus personhood before it has a functioning brain?
Others have pointed out that the morning after pill just prevents ovulation, so the egg never becomes fertilized -- but it gets even stupider than that. All the hot air about Plan B being an evil abortion drug is just a line of bullshit that they wave around and even believe themselves, but if you look a little deeper their motivations become clear.

The big problem they have with the morning-after pill is that it removes consequences from sex. Just listen to them: they complain a lot about how making Plan B available will increase the rate of unprotected sex. Of course, there's a long list of peer-reviewed studies saying otherwise. When people actually bother to check the facts, it turns out that the people who use emergency contraception are usually the people who are the most assiduous about using regular contraception. Plan B is exactly what the name suggests: a backup when something goes wrong.

Look at it this way: why would they ignore all the science about how the morning-after pill works and insist that it's an abortion drug? After all, since it just prevents ovulation and they claim that life begins when the egg is fertilized, shouldn't they just declare it okay and move on to something else?

They're just using the abortion-drug scare as a politically correct way of saying that they don't like this modern immoral culture where sex before marriage is okay. It's just like the way people say they don't like Obama because he's "out of touch with regular Americans" as cover for being racist fucks.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

CaptainZoidberg wrote:
SirNitram wrote: You assume there are such moderates, I really do wonder if they exist. But the reason is simple: IT IS NOT ABOUT THE FETUS. IT IS ABOUT CONTROLLING SEX.
Well, if it were 100% about controlling sex and 0% about the fetus, then why do they use those pictures of aborted fetuses to protest? You could say that the people protesting know that such a message will sell better than "Don't have sex", but why would they use the tactic at all if there weren't moderate Pro-Life people who would be swayed by it?
It's called the Appeal to Emotion. Because stating the truth that they don't want people having unsanctioned-by-God sex would cause the public to simply tell these assholes to go fuck themselves.
I meant to ask why they would want to protect the rights of anything before the fetal stage where there's a significant brain. I'd imagine that they're just woefully ignorant and think that there's something resembling a full human being from day one.
They think they're "protecting" a soul which is God's property from minute one.
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Post by Superman »

This really isn't all that new. Religious whackjob pharmacists have refused to issue the morning after pill, RU-486, and other types of birth control for years. I guess declaring the entire pharmacy as being against birth control is the next logical step for their childish religious faith.

And of course this is all about sex. Religious douche bags hate the fact that people can have sex without consequences. Most of these assholes are against the morning after pill, which is NOT an abortion pill. I wonder why they hate it then...

What cracks me up is that the idiot religious tards say they want all babies born... but they'll just end up hating them when they grow up anyway.
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Post by Cairber »

We all saw this coming. I mean....just look at how doctors can turn women away when they don't deem their abortions medically necessary enough. I just read a story in Self magazine about a woman who was pregnant with a condition that made he have no amniotic fluid. In addition, her fetus had that condition where the head is very large and filled with fluid.

The doctors told her that her organs were literally crushing the fetus and it already had numerous broken bones and that this, coupled with the other birth defect, meant that her child would only live a few minutes outside the womb. Then she developed dangerously high blood pressure and they promptly told her they could not perform an abortion and she ended up having to find some clinic to help her out.
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Post by PainRack »

Cairber wrote:We all saw this coming. I mean....just look at how doctors can turn women away when they don't deem their abortions medically necessary enough. I just read a story in Self magazine about a woman who was pregnant with a condition that made he have no amniotic fluid. In addition, her fetus had that condition where the head is very large and filled with fluid.

The doctors told her that her organs were literally crushing the fetus and it already had numerous broken bones and that this, coupled with the other birth defect, meant that her child would only live a few minutes outside the womb. Then she developed dangerously high blood pressure and they promptly told her they could not perform an abortion and she ended up having to find some clinic to help her out.
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Post by Cairber »

Had that been their reason it would have made sense, but it was a combination of the fact that she was past 20 weeks and abortions were contrary to the medical policy of the hospital or something...I'd have to go back and look at the article again.
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Post by Cairber »

ok, i got the two women in the article mixed up.

The first woman had a fetus who was being crushed by her organs and her insurance wouldn't cover it and the hospital required a 1k up front payment to even begin


from the article:
“The doctor had his arms folded and just stared at the pictures,” Vargas says. “He was lost for words.”

What everyone saw above them that day was gruesome and heartbreaking. “The baby’s limbs were bent and broken, and he had facial deformities from being crushed,” Vargas says. Not only were his kidneys not functioning, but this had also prevented his lungs from developing.
Vargas had been told her termination would cost between $4,000 and $12,000, depending on the procedure she and her doctors agreed on. She gets her insurance via her husband’s employer, the federal government, which has a long-standing policy forbidding employees from purchasing any health plan that covers abortion

Then the second woman in the article is told she just has to sit tight and wait for her fetus to die because an abortion would be "murder" (the word her doctor used)
A high-resolution sonogram revealed her son had a vein of Galen malformation, a defect that interferes with drainage from the brain and swells it with fluid — the reason she was carrying so large. She was told her baby would die inside of her or immediately after he was born. “My baby was alive and kicking, and the thought of waiting for him to die in utero was unimaginable,” Audrey says.
She asked her obstetricians when she could terminate. The head of the practice replied, “We call that murder.” Another doctor in the practice was willing to induce, but, Audrey says, warned her “she couldn’t prevent a nurse from running into the OR with life support. The idea of holding a baby as its organs failed — we couldn’t think of anything worse.”

So, in light of having read this article...I can't say I am surprised at where pharmacies are headed...
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Post by CaptainZoidberg »

General Zod wrote: Because that's totally not just window-dressing to make their goals seem reasonable to gullible idiots like you. :lol: :lol:
What makes you think that the anti-birth control people compose the entire anti-abortion movement, and aren't just trying to tack on their seperate agenda?

The very fact that they use "save babies" as their main appeal shows that the majority of the people with a Pro-Life stance are swayed by that and not the "controlling sex" part.
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Post by General Zod »

CaptainZoidberg wrote: What makes you think that the anti-birth control people compose the entire anti-abortion movement, and aren't just trying to tack on their seperate agenda?
I assume you're actually going to point out where I said anything remotely close to that?
The very fact that they use "save babies" as their main appeal shows that the majority of the people with a Pro-Life stance are swayed by that and not the "controlling sex" part.
Who gives a fuck what they're swayed by? The underlying motivation is ultimately the same; they want to control sex through a plethora of programs, including attacks on abortion. Whether or not they openly acknowledge this is irrelevant.
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Post by Graeme Dice »

CaptainZoidberg wrote:The very fact that they use "save babies" as their main appeal shows that the majority of the people with a Pro-Life stance are swayed by that and not the "controlling sex" part.
No, it means nothing of the sort. All that means is that they've decided that this particular message is the best way to sway the emotions of the people who hear it. The vast majority of the "pro-life" brigade are simply determined to punish women for having sex, and since they are religious, they have no trouble lying to themselves and others about the true reasons for their beliefs and arguments.
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Post by Flagg »

Knife wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Guardsman Bass wrote:Of course it's bullshit, particularly if it's the only pharmacy within a reasonable area. I don't see what you can do about it, though; there's technically nothing that's stopping a private business like a pharmacy from acting in such a way.
Yes there is. It's called a license. Simply make it a requirement of the licenses that pharmacies must carry all legal drugs and pharmacists must fill all legally obtained prescriptions. If you have some moral issue with that then get into roofing.
Fuck that, how about we put that on the pharmacists license, not the store. If you're going to distribute meds, you must be willing to distribute all meds.
Yeah, I meant both. Probably could have been a little clearer.
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Post by Knife »

Lusankya wrote:
CaptainZoidberg wrote: Just from taking a quick glance at the "ALL" website, it looks like most of the focus is on "Saving Babies", and not on preventing sexual deviancy.
If they were really keen on saving babies, they'd be better off supporting improved healthcare for mothers and babies. Except they won't because that's socialist and communist and evil.
Indeed. It seems that libertarian ideals go hand in hand with religious fundies, probably because they think small little Christian towns running things is better than big bad government but I digress.

A better healthcare system could indeed help baby, mother, father and everyone else, to bad its evil.
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Post by SirNitram »

CaptainZoidberg wrote:
General Zod wrote: Because that's totally not just window-dressing to make their goals seem reasonable to gullible idiots like you. :lol: :lol:
What makes you think that the anti-birth control people compose the entire anti-abortion movement, and aren't just trying to tack on their seperate agenda?
What makes you think they aren't controlling it and using the rest as pawns, exactly? Your cutting insight which caused you to fully drink the kool-aid and accuse the other side of being 'Free and consequence free abortions'?
The very fact that they use "save babies" as their main appeal shows that the majority of the people with a Pro-Life stance are swayed by that and not the "controlling sex" part.
Total and utter bullshit. That's called 'Lying'.
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Post by Zac Naloen »

She asked her obstetricians when she could terminate. The head of the practice replied, “We call that murder.” Another doctor in the practice was willing to induce, but, Audrey says, warned her “she couldn’t prevent a nurse from running into the OR with life support. The idea of holding a baby as its organs failed — we couldn’t think of anything worse.”

Yeh, cos it's so much better when it happens during actual labour :roll:

It's going to happen either way, so what's the point in continuing pregnancy?
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