College wants debate on drinking age against MADD

[chitoryu12]

Ah, crap. Could someone fix the quote tags up there?

[Big Phil]

2. It's not at all "clandestine". Any idiot high schooler will probably have a Facebook, MySpace, or Photobucket album full of kegs and Solo cups. God knows I've seen enough of them.

It's clandestine in the sense that 20 year olds don't go and get drunk in bars; they do it at house parties, illegally.

That's hardly clandestine. Any underage kid who drinks talks about it all the time as long as nobody in the room will try to tell their parents for an intervention or start screeching at them for it, and I can show you quite a few people with public Facebook and MySpace albums full of beer bongs, nudity, and pot. It's not "clandestine" if any idiot with an Internet connection and working hearing will know everything.

You completely missed the point; just because kids are stupid and publish photos and videos of them doing things they shouldn't doesn't mean that they don't try and hide it from authority figures (i.e., parents, teachers, and cops).

For example, lots of college Freshmen and Sophomores go to football and basketball games completely wasted, but they drink at their Frats or in their dorm rooms, not at the game or in the parking lot before the game; why do you suppose they do that?

[Darth Wong]

For example, lots of college Freshmen and Sophomores go to football and basketball games completely wasted, but they drink at their Frats or in their dorm rooms, not at the game or in the parking lot before the game; why do you suppose they do that?

Because there might be real cops at the game, not campus security which doesn't give a shit about underage drinking because the university's administration doesn't care.

[Big Phil]

For example, lots of college Freshmen and Sophomores go to football and basketball games completely wasted, but they drink at their Frats or in their dorm rooms, not at the game or in the parking lot before the game; why do you suppose they do that?

Because there might be real cops at the game, not campus security which doesn't give a shit about underage drinking because the university's administration doesn't care.

If that were the only reason you'd expect to see kids wandering around college campuses with beers in their hands. Only the really dumb ones do that.

[Darth Wong]

For example, lots of college Freshmen and Sophomores go to football and basketball games completely wasted, but they drink at their Frats or in their dorm rooms, not at the game or in the parking lot before the game; why do you suppose they do that?

Because there might be real cops at the game, not campus security which doesn't give a shit about underage drinking because the university's administration doesn't care.

If that were the only reason you'd expect to see kids wandering around college campuses with beers in their hands. Only the really dumb ones do that.

That doesn't change anything. Campus security has certain things they will look the other way for, and certain things they won't. Students don't walk around with beer in hand because that's over the line even by the lax standards of the campus cops, but it's perfectly acceptable for them to stumble around piss-drunk even though they shouldn't be drinking at all.

[Death from the Sea]

For example, lots of college Freshmen and Sophomores go to football and basketball games completely wasted, but they drink at their Frats or in their dorm rooms, not at the game or in the parking lot before the game; why do you suppose they do that?

Because there might be real cops at the game, not campus security which doesn't give a shit about underage drinking because the university's administration doesn't care.

If that were the only reason you'd expect to see kids wandering around college campuses with beers in their hands. Only the really dumb ones do that.

because aside from Las Vegas or New Orleans, I don't know of another place that lets you walk down the street with a beer in your hands. It would be a super easy MIP ticket on a college campus.

[Illuminatus Primus]

For example, lots of college Freshmen and Sophomores go to football and basketball games completely wasted, but they drink at their Frats or in their dorm rooms, not at the game or in the parking lot before the game; why do you suppose they do that?

Because there might be real cops at the game, not campus security which doesn't give a shit about underage drinking because the university's administration doesn't care.

Campus security in the U.S. usually is real cops. They just can't be everywhere at once, and large univeristies can expect crowds of thousands during games - resources are terribly stretched for cracking down on drinking in dorm rooms privately and inside fraternity houses through game days, and besides which most people know people who live off-campus in rented homes or apartments, and the university has no reach whatsoever there unless the students manage to get city cops inside the house and they let the university know.

[Darth Wong]

Campus security in the U.S. usually is real cops. They just can't be everywhere at once, and large univeristies can expect crowds of thousands during games - resources are terribly stretched for cracking down on drinking in dorm rooms privately and inside fraternity houses through game days, and besides which most people know people who live off-campus in rented homes or apartments, and the university has no reach whatsoever there unless the students manage to get city cops inside the house and they let the university know.

What kind of "reach" do they need? They don't need to arrest people and put everyone through criminal proceedings; they only need to check the house address against the registered addresses of active students at the university, and expel all of the students living there as a matter of policy, for throwing a party where binge drinking occurred.

You don't need people capable of arresting students in order to enforce these kinds of school policies. You only need people who are capable of identifying faces against photo ID records and recognizing a binge-drinking party: not exactly difficult tasks.

People act as if binge drinking among university students is impossible to regulate, as if every student is another Al Capone. That's completely absurd; most of these kids are nothing more than spoiled brats living off Daddy's money and getting piss-drunk every weekend because Daddy can't see what they're doing and they have no foresight or maturity. Can anyone seriously be so uncreative as to be incapable of imagining ways this could be dealt with?

[salm]

For example, lots of college Freshmen and Sophomores go to football and basketball games completely wasted, but they drink at their Frats or in their dorm rooms, not at the game or in the parking lot before the game; why do you suppose they do that?

Because there might be real cops at the game, not campus security which doesn't give a shit about underage drinking because the university's administration doesn't care.

If that were the only reason you'd expect to see kids wandering around college campuses with beers in their hands. Only the really dumb ones do that.

It is probably also because of the price for alcohol. A pint of beer in the supermarket is 50 cents, you can drink it at home. If you want to buy a beer at the football game in the stadium you have to shell out a lot more than that.
Furthermore there is a social component to this. Warming up at home with a couple of friends is just part of it.
Perhaps it is different in the US but somehow i doubt it. Warming up increases the time you spend drinking, so it is almost a logical result for people who have enough spare time like college students.

[Dark Hellion]

Saying that you can deal with college binge drinking by simply arresting and expelling the students is similar to suggesting you can solve hunger in Africa by buying all the Africans food. In a perfect world it is a great solution, but there are so many layers of bullshit in the way that you can't simply do it. For Africa it is logistics and government corruption. Within colleges you have the Greek systems (which act like organized crime in many respects), the alumni who donate money to the system, the simple act of actually catching the responsible ones in the act without getting the random bystanders caught as well (expelling a major portion of any particular major will reek havoc on the school demographics, or god forbid you break up a party for one of the ethnic clubs), and you still haven't solved the fact that the next batch of bastards are still going to be spoiled daddies boys/girls who will do the same thing. It is unsustainable to kick like 5% of you campus off every term for drinking offenses, you are simply going to lose admissions as people go to schools that have lower expulsion rates, regardless of academic performance.

The problem is much more complex than the simplistic enforcement solution you have proposed. No school would do it, because even if handled perfectly (without the biases you have pointed out), it would still be devastating to the school in loss of admissions and reputation, and it would remove students who would otherwise be prime representatives of the school under guilt by association.

[Darth Wong]

Saying that you can deal with college binge drinking by simply arresting and expelling the students is similar to suggesting you can solve hunger in Africa by buying all the Africans food. In a perfect world it is a great solution, but there are so many layers of bullshit in the way that you can't simply do it. For Africa it is logistics and government corruption. Within colleges you have the Greek systems (which act like organized crime in many respects), the alumni who donate money to the system, the simple act of actually catching the responsible ones in the act without getting the random bystanders caught as well (expelling a major portion of any particular major will reek havoc on the school demographics, or god forbid you break up a party for one of the ethnic clubs), and you still haven't solved the fact that the next batch of bastards are still going to be spoiled daddies boys/girls who will do the same thing. It is unsustainable to kick like 5% of you campus off every term for drinking offenses, you are simply going to lose admissions as people go to schools that have lower expulsion rates, regardless of academic performance.

Well duh, why do you think I pointed out that no university would ever do it because of the economic incentives? Thanks for echoing my own arguments back at me.

The point I tried to make (and which you clearly did not understand) is that the universities are lying when they say they take it seriously and want to do something about it. The reality is that they treat alcohol just like Major League Baseball treats steroids. They want the money associated with the drug, so they only pretend to be concerned. And ... oops! I mentioned that earlier as well, didn't I?

The problem is much more complex than the simplistic enforcement solution you have proposed. No school would do it, because even if handled perfectly (without the biases you have pointed out), it would still be devastating to the school in loss of admissions and reputation, and it would remove students who would otherwise be prime representatives of the school under guilt by association.

Learn to read, fucktard. You managed to repeat the whole goddamned point I was making, but you seemed to think it was a rebuttal to that very point.

[Big Phil]

Because there might be real cops at the game, not campus security which doesn't give a shit about underage drinking because the university's administration doesn't care.

If that were the only reason you'd expect to see kids wandering around college campuses with beers in their hands. Only the really dumb ones do that.

It is probably also because of the price for alcohol. A pint of beer in the supermarket is 50 cents, you can drink it at home. If you want to buy a beer at the football game in the stadium you have to shell out a lot more than that.
Furthermore there is a social component to this. Warming up at home with a couple of friends is just part of it.
Perhaps it is different in the US but somehow i doubt it. Warming up increases the time you spend drinking, so it is almost a logical result for people who have enough spare time like college students.

Alcohol is not sold at (most, if not all) college sporting events. That doesn't prevent those over 21 from drinking in the parking lot, which they do. For some strange reason, however, those under 21 drink in secret.

[Darth Wong]

Alcohol is not sold at (most, if not all) college sporting events. That doesn't prevent those over 21 from drinking in the parking lot, which they do. For some strange reason, however, those under 21 drink in secret.

Because they're afraid they'll get in trouble, and they're not afraid of that when they go to a huge dorm keg party because they know nobody at the university gives a damn. It's not as if these keg parties are a secret.

[The Nomad]

We have more in common with other Northern Europe nations i.e Finland and Germany where alcohol plays a major part in our social interactions unlike say France or Spain where it is merely a drink like any other and very few drink to get drunk.

Actually, binge drinking is becoming commonplace in France. Not taken part to any of it, but it sprung on the media this summer.

[The Nomad]

We have more in common with other Northern Europe nations i.e Finland and Germany where alcohol plays a major part in our social interactions unlike say France or Spain where it is merely a drink like any other and very few drink to get drunk.

Actually, binge drinking is becoming commonplace in France. Not taken part to any of it, but it sprung on the media this summer.

Curse lack of edit. By "commonplace" I meant "spreading fast among college students".

[Sea Skimmer]

Advocating that if the legal age was 18 then college age kids would drink less turn into highschool age students would drink more using the same argument? Talking about the forbidden fruit type argument. Is there something that changes about the college age groups like no parental supervision compared to highschool students that affects things more than a legal age limit?

High school students already drink heavily; which is why is many nations gave drinking ages which are more like 15-16, but I don’t personally advocate that. At 17-18 though, you can own firearms, vote, drive a car, join the military and fight to the death in Iraq, donate major organs ect.... the idea that you aren’t responsible enough to drink cannot possibly be supported. The more alcohol is in the open and legal the more aware people are of it, which helps keep things under control. But in the end, some people will drink heavily, some people wont and we already know laws don’t make much of any difference.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Is it actually a responsibility issue that is argued for the age right now? I thought 21 was due to liver development.

[Darth Wong]

At 17-18 though, you can own firearms, vote, drive a car, join the military and fight to the death in Iraq, donate major organs ect.... the idea that you aren’t responsible enough to drink cannot possibly be supported.

Why not? What makes you think that the capacity for good judgment about alcohol must coincide with your 18th birthday? Why do you think that precedents about other social policies should dictate this transition age? You're thinking like a lawyer rather than a scientist.

The more alcohol is in the open and legal the more aware people are of it, which helps keep things under control. But in the end, some people will drink heavily, some people wont and we already know laws don’t make much of any difference.

There's a portion of OP-linked article which mentions this issue of just how much effect these laws have:

McCardell claims that his experiences as a president and a parent, as well as a historian studying Prohibition, have persuaded him the drinking age isn't working.

But critics say McCardell has badly misrepresented the research by suggesting that the decision to raise the drinking age from 18 to 21 may not have saved lives.

In fact, MADD CEO Chuck Hurley said, nearly all peer-reviewed studies looking at the change showed raising the drinking age reduced drunk-driving deaths. A survey of research from the U.S. and other countries by the Centers for Disease Control and others reached the same conclusion.

McCardell cites the work of Alexander Wagenaar, a University of Florida epidemiologist and expert on how changes in the drinking age affect safety. But Wagenaar himself sides with MADD in the debate.

Do you have some source for your claim that the drinking age has no effect whatsoever on behaviour?

In Ontario, we have a lower drinking age: 19 instead of 21. But we also have laws mandating that you can only buy booze at special licensed facilities. We don't have it in every damned variety store and grocery store the way you do, where it's staring you in the face all the time.

[Big Phil]

Alcohol is not sold at (most, if not all) college sporting events. That doesn't prevent those over 21 from drinking in the parking lot, which they do. For some strange reason, however, those under 21 drink in secret.

Because they're afraid they'll get in trouble, and they're not afraid of that when they go to a huge dorm keg party because they know nobody at the university gives a damn. It's not as if these keg parties are a secret.

We're in agreement; I'm trying to hammer home to Chitterling that teenagers drinking in private = drinking clandestinely. If they weren't being clandestine about it, they'd just wander into bars and drink in the open. That doesn't preclude them being stupid about it, of course, and taking and posting pictures, but that's hardly any different than two people cheating on their partners and dining in a public restaurant, where they could be photographed. They're trying to have a secret affair, but they're just idiots about it (see Sienna Miller-Balthazar Getty).

Definitions of "clandestine"

Merriam Webster Online Dictionary: "marked by, held in, or conducted with secrecy"
Freedictionary.com: "Kept or done in secret, often in order to conceal an illicit or improper purpose"

[Illuminatus Primus]

What kind of "reach" do they need? They don't need to arrest people and put everyone through criminal proceedings; they only need to check the house address against the registered addresses of active students at the university, and expel all of the students living there as a matter of policy, for throwing a party where binge drinking occurred.

You do realize my permanent address is my parent's house two hours away, and that's a-okay. In fact, its desired because that way they can establish long-term residency for scholarship purposes (they don't want immigrants to the state jumping in for cheap school).

You don't need people capable of arresting students in order to enforce these kinds of school policies. You only need people who are capable of identifying faces against photo ID records and recognizing a binge-drinking party: not exactly difficult tasks.

So you're saying the school should employ snitches? That is not practical.

People act as if binge drinking among university students is impossible to regulate, as if every student is another Al Capone. That's completely absurd; most of these kids are nothing more than spoiled brats living off Daddy's money and getting piss-drunk every weekend because Daddy can't see what they're doing and they have no foresight or maturity. Can anyone seriously be so uncreative as to be incapable of imagining ways this could be dealt with?

They'd just do it off-campus in homes. Where the police cannot go without probable cause like all other regulations. And universities will never be able to maintain a network of snitches in anything like an equitable student conduct system and without it being prohibitively expensive. Further, half of the students are of legal age. They can have too many drinks at a bar if that is their prerogative. Certainly tighter regulations would make it harder to do and less blatant and excessive, but it'd not eliminate the culture. I find it hard to imagine it'd really change how much some students drink when they choose to.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Why not? What makes you think that the capacity for good judgment about alcohol must coincide with your 18th birthday? Why do you think that precedents about other social policies should dictate this transition age? You're thinking like a lawyer rather than a scientist.

And who do you expect to make, regulate, interpret, and create the reality of these laws and regulations apart from lawyers? We both live in common law countries.

In Ontario, we have a lower drinking age: 19 instead of 21. But we also have laws mandating that you can only buy booze at special licensed facilities. We don't have it in every damned variety store and grocery store the way you do, where it's staring you in the face all the time.

This is probably a better idea, especially in college towns. Ultimately, the fact that an entire economy around college drinking and partying is not only tolerated, but encouraged (to say nothing of the obvious old-boy patronage networks and organized partying that is the Greek life) is the problem.

And a nitpick, not every store here has hard liquor (but almost all have beer). They require licensing and most are completely seperated from the grocery store proper (if its part of one). And of course it varies from state-to-state, like I believe Pennsylvannia is much strict than FL.

[Darth Wong]

You do realize my permanent address is my parent's house two hours away, and that's a-okay. In fact, its desired because that way they can establish long-term residency for scholarship purposes (they don't want immigrants to the state jumping in for cheap school).

So? If you throw a keg party there, they expel you. Simple and clean.

So you're saying the school should employ snitches? That is not practical.

Why not?

They'd just do it off-campus in homes. Where the police cannot go without probable cause like all other regulations.

You don't need the police. You're expelling them, not laying criminal charges. Expulsions are a matter of internal school policy, not criminal law.

And universities will never be able to maintain a network of snitches in anything like an equitable student conduct system and without it being prohibitively expensive.

Nonsense. Just put out a small $500 bounty for reporting keg parties. If there's a blanket rule against anyone enrolled at the university throwing such a party, then it's a simple matter to expel the students who throw such parties. Why would it cost a fortune to operate such a system?

Further, half of the students are of legal age. They can have too many drinks at a bar if that is their prerogative.

So? There's no reason why a school can't adopt a "no binge drinking" policy for their students even if they can legally drink.

Certainly tighter regulations would make it harder to do and less blatant and excessive, but it'd not eliminate the culture. I find it hard to imagine it'd really change how much some students drink when they choose to.

Yes it would. The real problem is, as I said, the fact that nobody really wants to solve the problem. They make too much money off it.

[Darth Wong]

Why not? What makes you think that the capacity for good judgment about alcohol must coincide with your 18th birthday? Why do you think that precedents about other social policies should dictate this transition age? You're thinking like a lawyer rather than a scientist.

And who do you expect to make, regulate, interpret, and create the reality of these laws and regulations apart from lawyers? We both live in common law countries.

Totally irrelevant to an argument about whether people are mature enough to be relied upon to drink responsibly at the age of 18.

This is probably a better idea, especially in college towns. Ultimately, the fact that an entire economy around college drinking and partying is not only tolerated, but encouraged (to say nothing of the obvious old-boy patronage networks and organized partying that is the Greek life) is the problem.

Exactly.

And a nitpick, not every store here has hard liquor (but almost all have beer). They require licensing and most are completely seperated from the grocery store proper (if its part of one). And of course it varies from state-to-state, like I believe Pennsylvannia is much strict than FL.

Well, students get plenty drunk from beer, so the absurdly widespread availability of beer is bound to be a problem even if liquor is harder to get. As for "the culture", right now people have in-your-face keg parties, right on campus and in frat houses, all the time. At the very least, they would have to go underground. People would have to move these keg parties far away, invite people more quietly, not run them at frat houses where they would be afraid of being kicked out of the university, etc.

And yes, I know it won't happen. We have a fucking drunkard in the White House, for fuck's sake. I'm just saying that if the will existed, it could be done. I'm tired of people acting as if every college student on campus is the next Al Capone.

[Isolder74]

One problem with this sort of thing is the fact that many Frat Houses have beer delivered right to them here in the US. When I was living in Dekalb, Ill, the Budweiser truck stopped off at almost all the Frat houses and dropped off almost as much beer to each one as they did at the supermarket.

So the problem is not the drinking age but rather the culture of college drinking.

[Darth Wong]

One problem with this sort of thing is the fact that many Frat Houses have beer delivered right to them here in the US. When I was living in Dekalb, Ill, the Budweiser truck stopped off at almost all the Frat houses and dropped off almost as much beer to each one as they did at the supermarket.

So the problem is not the drinking age but rather the culture of college drinking.

That's another good example of the sort of behaviour that the universities could easily stop if they really wanted to, but of course, they don't.