Police Thugs Storm Homes In Minn.

sketerpot · Post by **sketerpot** » 2008-08-31 05:13pm

The cops don't need to plant jars of urine. Here's a theory:

1. They had pretty reliable indications that a small minority of the protesters were planning some illegal shenanigans.

2. They got warrants to preempt the aforementioned shenanigans.

3. Since protesters don't stay in discrete groups, they effectively had warrants to go around charging into houses that might contain people planning to riot. They can intimidate people and seize possessions, because they have warrants.

4. Since there were a few people planning to get dramatically unruly, they will naturally find some incriminating things like pissjars. They can then use this as justification for their indiscriminate intimidation.

I like this dastardly plan aesthetically. It's sneaky, it's forceful, and they don't need to plant evidence -- they just need to inflate the threat of the anarchist groups, and tar the rest of the protesters with the same brush.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2008-08-31 05:21pm

sketerpot wrote: I like this dastardly plan aesthetically. It's sneaky, it's forceful, and they don't need to plant evidence -- they just need to inflate the threat of the anarchist groups, and tar the rest of the protesters with the same brush.

Only two to three people were arrested. So, what do you mean by tar the others? That being said you should probably know who you are going to protest with so you're not unintentionally part of a riot.

sketerpot · Post by **sketerpot** » 2008-08-31 05:52pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
sketerpot wrote: I like this dastardly plan aesthetically. It's sneaky, it's forceful, and they don't need to plant evidence -- they just need to inflate the threat of the anarchist groups, and tar the rest of the protesters with the same brush.
Only two to three people were arrested. So, what do you mean by tar the others?

When they're justifying their actions to the public, they just need to make it sound like the protesters were a bunch of dangerous radicals. Stereotypes are a very effective PR tool.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2008-08-31 06:12pm

sketerpot wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
sketerpot wrote: I like this dastardly plan aesthetically. It's sneaky, it's forceful, and they don't need to plant evidence -- they just need to inflate the threat of the anarchist groups, and tar the rest of the protesters with the same brush.
Only two to three people were arrested. So, what do you mean by tar the others?
When they're justifying their actions to the public, they just need to make it sound like the protesters were a bunch of dangerous radicals. Stereotypes are a very effective PR tool.

How do they plan on doing that when they only arrested a handful of people that they handcuffed?

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2008-08-31 06:56pm

Winston Blake wrote:Nitpick time:
- Since when do SWAT teams carry full-sized rifles?
- Automatics or semi-automatics? Perhaps they were large, high-powered assault submachine guns?

Quite a few police departments have "normal" officers with AR-15 semi-automatic rifles in case they encounter body armor. I don't know specifically what rifle this SWAT team uses, but various Colt or H&K rifles are most likely. SMGs are also popular, due to their smaller size. At a guess, probably both were in use.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2008-08-31 07:08pm

Ender wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:I cant explain the buckets of urine, if those are indeed buckets of urine that the kids had, more likely they are buckets of urine planted by these unethical cops

Wait, you really think cops are gonna go and just plant buckets of urine? Seriously? Accusing them of a gun I can understand. A knife, sure. But buckets of urine? You realize you are arguing that these guys are driving around with a big bucket full of piss in the trunk, sloshing around all over the place, just in case there are some protesters they want to set up for the fall. And its not even like you have one really weird guy who does it and happened to be on place for it, multiple buckets implies that several members of the MN police force tote around gallons of their own piss so they can cover their asses. This line of reasoning makes sense to you?

It works both ways, the amount of effort required to create a bucket of piss is commensurate with the effort to do a coordinated raid of houses and organizations that might contain hippy protestors.

On the other hand. I did not think of this scenario

The cops don't need to plant jars of urine. Here's a theory:

1. They had pretty reliable indications that a small minority of the protesters were planning some illegal shenanigans.

2. They got warrants to preempt the aforementioned shenanigans.

3. Since protesters don't stay in discrete groups, they effectively had warrants to go around charging into houses that might contain people planning to riot. They can intimidate people and seize possessions, because they have warrants.

4. Since there were a few people planning to get dramatically unruly, they will naturally find some incriminating things like pissjars. They can then use this as justification for their indiscriminate intimidation.

I like this dastardly plan aesthetically. It's sneaky, it's forceful, and they don't need to plant evidence -- they just need to inflate the threat of the anarchist groups, and tar the rest of the protesters with the same brush.

And it makes sense and is more parsimonious

How do they plan on doing that when they only arrested a handful of people that they handcuffed?

THey dont need to. All they need to do is twist what they "find" and make it look like everyone who was going to protest is cut from the same cloth. It isnt like these raids were not politically motivated...

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2008-08-31 07:17pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote: How do they plan on doing that when they only arrested a handful of people that they handcuffed?

Just remind people continually that they were "successful" and had found all this shit (or piss, to be more accurate). That's all they need to do. There's no requirement for them to be fair and note on all those they intimidated unfairly. If they're asked about it, they'll dodge the question and go down the list of talking points. Buckets of piss! McCain was a POW!

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-08-31 07:23pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote: THey dont need to. All they need to do is twist what they "find" and make it look like everyone who was going to protest is cut from the same cloth. It isnt like these raids were not politically motivated...

What kind of peaceful protest groups "just happen" to have members that have buckets of urine in their homes?

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2008-08-31 07:39pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
THey dont need to. All they need to do is twist what they "find" and make it look like everyone who was going to protest is cut from the same cloth. It isnt like these raids were not politically motivated...

And exactly what evidence do you have that they will do this? Why do you think this is more than the police rightfully disrupting a group who had members that were planning to riot?

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2008-08-31 07:41pm

Zuul wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote: How do they plan on doing that when they only arrested a handful of people that they handcuffed?
Just remind people continually that they were "successful" and had found all this shit (or piss, to be more accurate). That's all they need to do. There's no requirement for them to be fair and note on all those they intimidated unfairly. If they're asked about it, they'll dodge the question and go down the list of talking points. Buckets of piss! McCain was a POW!

Intimidated unfairly? You're talking about the use of handcuffs, and the SWAT team?

Sorry, that's an officer safety issue. They aren't telepaths, so they have no idea what people will do when their territory is intruded upon.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-08-31 08:07pm

How do they know it's a bucket of urine and not a bucket of ammonia mixed with water to clean the floors? Urine reeks of ammonia after a while, doesn't it?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-08-31 08:14pm

Elfdart wrote:How do they know it's a bucket of urine and not a bucket of ammonia mixed with water to clean the floors? Urine reeks of ammonia after a while, doesn't it?

Ammonia is generally clear, for starters. Urine usually has a yellowish look to it.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2008-08-31 08:33pm

Elfdart wrote:How do they know it's a bucket of urine and not a bucket of ammonia mixed with water to clean the floors? Urine reeks of ammonia after a while, doesn't it?

Wow.

You guys are really reaching...

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2008-08-31 08:43pm

dragon wrote:
loomer wrote:Fuck, if they confiscated my new gas mask along with my cooking knives, combat sword, fire axe and my urine jars, I'd be far more likely to organize a riot.

Bonus points to anyone who can figure out which of the above I don't actually keep.
Hum hopefully not the urine jars, unless you and your friend are into that.

hey we're college age males, who has time during a blog session or WoW to hit the head? (just kidding)

Post by **Broomstick** » 2008-08-31 08:51pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Many items were seized by the police including PVC pipe, chicken wire and duct tape. The RNC Welcoming Committee wanted to lock themselves together in human barricades called ''sleeping dragons.'' Also included in the raids were knives, flammable liquids, five-gallon buckets of urine, homemade caltrops (which are devices used to puncture bus tires), bolt cutters, sledgehammers, protective padding and plastic buckets that were cut into shields.
Holy shit! I had a lot of PVC pipe and even galvanized steel tubing when I went to see Episode 3. I made my own lightsaber. And what self respecting college student does not have duct tape? As for the chicken wire, there are any number of things you can use it for, like big ceramic light houses.

WHo doesnt have knives, a boltcutter, or sledghammer. Come on, anyone who has been doing some home improvement has that stuff

As for the caltrops, protective padding and shields I have two words. LARP, SCA

I cant explain the buckets of urine, if those are indeed buckets of urine that the kids had, more likely they are buckets of urine planted by these unethical cops
Jesus Christ. You do grasp the concept that if they had planned to use these items in an illegal manner, and the police had reliable intelligence of this illegal activity then it would be a good bust?

OK, I have a LOT of weird shit in my house, which, in addition to knives, "flammable liquids" of several sort, sledgehammer, duct tape, etc. includes a working crossbow and the equipment to build remote control aircraft, but two items stand out in that list: caltrops, and a 5 gallon bucket of urine (that's about 20 liters for you metric types).

Now, I can think of a very bizarre, whacked out reason why a historical re-enactor might have a large quantity of urine on hand but CALTROPS? Who the fuck uses CALTROPS in re-enactments? And frankly, even people who do traditional wool and leather-working usually use commercially made ammonia rather than stale urine for degreasing and bleaching.

It's not just the items, it's also the quantity. For example, I own one sledgehammer. One is not that suspicious. If there's a dozen, though, perhaps a dozen brand-new ones... that's odd. One or two rolls of duct tape, no big deal - but if there's a crate of them? Multiples of those items are indicated, but not the quantity. And 5 gallon buckets of urine are just... bizarre.

I suspect that there were both heavy-handed police tactics and some genuine troublemakers in this, along with a significant number of highly inconvenienced harmless types.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-08-31 09:23pm

General Zod wrote:
Elfdart wrote:How do they know it's a bucket of urine and not a bucket of ammonia mixed with water to clean the floors? Urine reeks of ammonia after a while, doesn't it?
Ammonia is generally clear, for starters.

Before it's been used to mop a dirty floor. Which would explain why it's in a bucket.

Urine usually has a yellowish look to it.

I have a bottle of ammonia under my bathroom sink and it's a yellowish color.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-08-31 09:35pm

Elfdart wrote: Before it's been used to mop a dirty floor. Which would explain why it's in a bucket.

A bucket. Not SEVERAL buckets.

I have a bottle of ammonia under my bathroom sink and it's a yellowish color.

You are aware they smell significantly different as well, yes?

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-08-31 09:44pm

http://www.startribune.com/local/277037 ... page=2&c=y

The alleged urine, Nestor maintained, was actually three buckets, two of which contained dirty water used to flush toilets while conserving water. The third was seized from an illegal apartment occupied by someone not connected to the RNC protests. There was no bathroom in the illegal apartment and urine was collected in a bucket, Nestor said.

Besides, who is going to piss in a bucket, then try pour from the bucket into a balloon?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-08-31 09:49pm

Elfdart wrote:http://www.startribune.com/local/277037 ... page=2&c=y

The alleged urine, Nestor maintained, was actually three buckets, two of which contained dirty water used to flush toilets while conserving water. The third was seized from an illegal apartment occupied by someone not connected to the RNC protests. There was no bathroom in the illegal apartment and urine was collected in a bucket, Nestor said.
Besides, who is going to piss in a bucket, then try pour from the bucket into a balloon?

I'm fairly sure nobody said they were.

Of course with this new information, it's still dubious but simply makes them hippy nutters instead. Of course, it didn't help that this wasn't present in the original articles.

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2008-09-01 08:06am

That's the actual transcript? LOL it sounds like they were having a get together later.

No, that's just my dramatic interpretation of those two article quotes.

The alleged urine, Nestor maintained, was actually three buckets, two of which contained dirty water used to flush toilets while conserving water. The third was seized from an illegal apartment occupied by someone not connected to the RNC protests. There was no bathroom in the illegal apartment and urine was collected in a bucket, Nestor said.

What's an illegal apartment? An apartment that violates plumbing standards perhaps? Like the alleged fire code violations?

That might explain a bucket of urine. It'd be pretty sad - some guy gets home late, carrying a big bottle of water since the plumbing's been screwed all week, sighs, unzips his fly over a bucket and all of a sudden SWAT guys bust in and yell at him and grab his bucket of urine and leave.

General Zod wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote: Considering their other behavior I dont think it is much of a stretch.
You are aware of the effort required to fill several buckets with urine yes?

Requesting sig permission, with out-of-context disclaimer.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2008-09-01 08:11am

Winston Blake wrote:What's an illegal apartment? An apartment that violates plumbing standards perhaps? Like the alleged fire code violations?

Probably one in an abandoned building with no working utilities, with the occupants being squatters/otherwise homeless.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-09-01 01:33pm

Or an attic or room above the garage with no toilet or sink.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-09-01 01:44pm

You can watch live video of the demonstrations here:

http://theuptake.org/

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-09-02 04:18am

The police bloodied the nose of a producer for Democracy Now and arrested Amy Goodman when she complained about it. Goodman just got out of jail last night.

It's obvious the whole point of these raids and arrests is to intimidate reporters and watchdogs who might catch the police abusing others on video. That's why they confiscate the cameras and why the charges are always dropped: the last thing in the world the authorities want is to have to face cross-examination in a trial.

Salon/Glenn Greenwald

Perhaps most extraordinarily, Amy Goodman of Democracy Now -- the radio and TV broadcaster who has been a working journalist for close to 20 years -- was arrested on the street and charged with "conspiracy to riot." Audio of her arrest, which truly shocked and angered the crowd of observers, is here. I just attended a Press Conference with St. Paul Mayor Chris Coleman and Police Chief John M. Harrington and -- after they boasted of how "restrained" their police actions were -- asked about the journalists and lawyers who had been detained and/or arrested both today and over the weekend. They said they wouldn't give any information about journalists who had been arrested today, though they said they believed that "one journalist" had been, and that she "was seemingly a participant in the riots, not simply a non-participant." I'll have video of the Press Conference posted shortly.

Other reporters have also been assaulted, including two AP reporters and CNN commentator Donna Brazile getting pepper sprayed.

Metatwaddle · Post by **Metatwaddle** » 2008-09-02 06:48am

Glenn Greenwald has been covering this really well on his blog. I recommend that everyone go follow Elfdart's link; there's some good muckraking over there. There's video of Amy Goodman's arrest now, not just audio. Apparently she was charged with a misdemeanor (obstructing legal administration) and Sharif Abdel Kouddous and Nicole Salazar, both Democracy Now producers, were charged with felonies (conspiracy to riot?). According to an interview with Goodman, Salazar videotaped her own arrest, so video of that should be coming soon. I don't know why these thuggish idiots were stupid enough to arrest Amy Goodman while she was wearing her press credentials, anyway. Journalists have big audiences almost by definition, and it's not exactly a secret that most of them are quick to shout it from the rooftops whenever one of their own is harassed for doing her job.

My personal favorite was the link Greenwald gave to a video of a woman being pepper sprayed at close range while standing on the side of the road holding a flower. I wish I were making this up.