Canadians Likely Face Fall Election

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Ma Deuce
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Post by Ma Deuce »

Phantasee wrote:Dion is coming to the U of A for a speech tomorrow (well, today in 20 minutes). I'm planning on going, see if I get a chance to meet him and shake his hand. I know you can't completely judge a person by how they seem when you say hi, but I definitely didn't like Kevin Taft (Alberta Liberal Leader) when I met him, and that really affected my perception of the party.
I doubt you'd get a negative impression of Dion from meeting him personally. While I've never met him personally, from what I understand, he's actually a pretty nice guy in person, he's obviously quite intelligent, and he does seem refreshingly honest in his convictions (such as his belief that Quebec doesn't deserve special status, which has long earned him the ire of his fellow Quebeckers). But neither that nor his political views are the real problem, which is that he is simply way out of his element; he doesn't seem to have the experience or the cajones to be an effective political leader.

On the other hand, Harper, for all his faults, is a master politician, and he knows very well how to play the "game". In that regard, his governing style is remarkably similar to that of Chretien, especially his tight-fisted control over his own caucus, and his "take no prisoners" approach in dealing with the opposition, a formula that has proven successful for not only Chretien, but other PMs before him.
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Post by aerius »

Ma Deuce wrote:On the other hand, Harper, for all his faults, is a master politician, and he knows very well how to play the "game".
I was talking with Mike about this around a month ago and he noted that Harper is pretty much what you'd get if Karl Rove was the PM. The guy is a slick and devious motherfucker, Mike mentioned the example of how Harper's party passed a bunch of new environmental regulations, and then he shitcanned the department responsible for enforcing the regulations. That's just brilliantly evil and none of the other parties have a chance against that kind of Marchiavellian genius.
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Post by Phantasee »

What is your position on the Arctic sovereignty issue? It looks like Harper manufactured it into a major one, but I can't say I'm against the idea. I'm not sure who has the better plan, but so far it seems like the Tories have the only plan...
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aerius wrote:
Ma Deuce wrote:On the other hand, Harper, for all his faults, is a master politician, and he knows very well how to play the "game".
I was talking with Mike about this around a month ago and he noted that Harper is pretty much what you'd get if Karl Rove was the PM. The guy is a slick and devious motherfucker, Mike mentioned the example of how Harper's party passed a bunch of new environmental regulations, and then he shitcanned the department responsible for enforcing the regulations. That's just brilliantly evil and none of the other parties have a chance against that kind of Marchiavellian genius.
Was that on this site, or in real life? If it was on this site, I'd like to read the exchange; I've barely even heard of Harper here in America-Land.
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Post by aerius »

Guardsman Bass wrote:Was that on this site, or in real life? If it was on this site, I'd like to read the exchange; I've barely even heard of Harper here in America-Land.
That was in real life. We were having a little chat when I went to grab some computer stuff off him.
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Post by Ma Deuce »

Phantasee wrote:What is your position on the Arctic sovereignty issue? It looks like Harper manufactured it into a major one, but I can't say I'm against the idea. I'm not sure who has the better plan, but so far it seems like the Tories have the only plan...
No it's not a bad idea: If the Northwest Passage does become ice-free in the summer and if it does become a major shipping lane as a result, then we damn well should have sovereignty over it, since the channel is surrounded by land owned by us. Better giving attention to that than wasting time arguing over a strategically worthless lump of rock like Han's Island, a dispute that has gone back decades (let the Danes have it for all I care).
aerius wrote:I was talking with Mike about this around a month ago and he noted that Harper is pretty much what you'd get if Karl Rove was the PM. The guy is a slick and devious motherfucker, Mike mentioned the example of how Harper's party passed a bunch of new environmental regulations, and then he shitcanned the department responsible for enforcing the regulations. That's just brilliantly evil and none of the other parties have a chance against that kind of Marchiavellian genius.
Which is why (as much as I hate to say it) the Liberals need someone like Chretien at the helm if they're going to win again, because like I said (ideological differences aside), Harper is operating very much like him. Look at how he's rolling out the pre-election spending promises right now: That's straight out of Chretien's playbook.
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Post by Phantasee »

Aren't the pre-election spending promises the usual tactic before an election? I grew up under a Chretien government, so I don't know how Mulroney or anyone else did it.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Phantasee wrote:Aren't the pre-election spending promises the usual tactic before an election? I grew up under a Chretien government, so I don't know how Mulroney or anyone else did it.
It's pretty the standard deal, although some governments are slicker than others. Odds are that that a couple years after being elected the government says it will lower taxes and increase spending then it's planning on an election.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The Liberal party seems to have a completely moribund campaign. Why is it that I'm seeing a dozen Conservative political ads on TV a day, but not a single Liberal political ad?
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Post by Aaron »

And it's official:Oct 14 (CBC)
Canadians will head to the polls in a general election on Oct. 14, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Sunday in Ottawa after meeting with the Governor General.

Harper made the announcement outside Rideau Hall after his conversation with Michaëlle Jean.

"Her Excellency, the Governor General, has seen fit to dissolve Parliament," he said.

The vote will take place one day after the Thanksgiving holiday.Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion says the Oct. 14 election may be the most 'crucial' campaign in election history.Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion says the Oct. 14 election may be the most 'crucial' campaign in election history. (CBC)

"Between now and Oct. 14, Canadians will choose a government to look out for their interests at a time of global economic trouble," Harper said.

When asked about what the outcome might be, the Conservative leader said, "We believe it is going to be a tough election. We believe it will be a tight election. And, yes, we believe in all likelihood it will be a minority."

Before taking questions, Harper paused briefly to praise Canada as the "best country in the world," and said serving as prime minister has been an honour.

Harper took direct aim at the Liberals, led by Stéphane Dion, and their promotion of large-scale spending and a new carbon tax.

"This tax will pack a cost on to every expenditure every family and every business makes," said Harper who is the MP for Calgary Southwest.

Dion's plan would levy $15.4 billion in new taxes on Canadian industries that produce high carbon emissions. The higher prices for energy that people would face would be offset by broad-based tax cuts, according to the plan.

Dion has countered that his plan is revenue neutral — offset by income-tax cuts.
Leaders react to election call, outline platforms

The Liberal leader said the October vote poses "a stark choice" for the country, and slammed Harper's party for not planning for future generations.

"Stephen Harper has formed the most conservative government in our history," Dion said in the foyer of the House of Commons.

Dion, who represents the Montreal riding of Saint-Laurent-Cartierville, said he would champion a "richer, fairer, greener Canada," and said he does not mind being "the underdog" going into the campaign. NDP Leader Jack Layton, speaking in Gatineau, Que., urged Canadians to bid farewell to Stephen Harper. NDP Leader Jack Layton, speaking in Gatineau, Que., urged Canadians to bid farewell to Stephen Harper. (CBC)

Bloc Québécois Leader Gilles Duceppe said it was important to send a large number of Bloc MPs to Ottawa, and said his goal was to prevent Harper from gaining a majority.

"In order to have Quebec respected in Ottawa, we need to have a team that puts Quebec first," Duceppe said in Montreal. He represents the riding of Laurier-Sainte-Marie.

"With the Bloc, Quebec can present a united stand in Ottawa," he said. 'We want Quebec to be the winner."

New Democrat Leader Jack Layton, speaking in Gatineau, Que., with the Parliament Buildings behind him, touted his team of MPs and called for a campaign of hope and optimism.Bloc Québécois Leader Gilles Duceppe, speaking in Montreal, said the campaign should put Quebec first.Bloc Québécois Leader Gilles Duceppe, speaking in Montreal, said the campaign should put Quebec first. (CBC)

"Unlike Stephen Harper, I will be a prime minister who puts you and your family first," he said in English, after a lengthy start to his speech in French.

Layton, whose riding is Toronto-Danforth, urged Canadians to tap into the political "winds of change" in the United States, saying in French that it was time to say "goodbye to George Bush and Stephen Harper."

Green party Leader Elizabeth May, speaking in Guelph, Ont., said her top priority would be the environment.

"We must live on this planet as if we plan to stay," May said, saying the election "makes all the difference in the world."

May, who is a candidate in the Nova Scotia riding of Central Nova, called for "a better world for us and for our children," and said she would continue to challenge the "massive unfairness of excluding me from the leaders debate."Green party Leader Elizabeth May, speaking in Guelph, Ont., urged Canadians to make the environment the election's top priority.Green party Leader Elizabeth May, speaking in Guelph, Ont., urged Canadians to make the environment the election's top priority. (CBC)

May's party has been shut out of the leaders debate, usually held in the last few weeks of a federal leadership campaign, because the Greens have never held a federal seat in Canada.

Just last week, they gained their first-ever member of Parliament when former Liberal MP Blair Wilson, a Vancouver-area Independent, joined the party on Aug. 30.

Harper now heads to Quebec City on Sunday and then to Vancouver. Dion will arrive in Montreal later in the day.

Layton will speak in Calgary later Sunday, while Duceppe will attend events in Montreal. May will remain in Guelph before heading to Ottawa.
Conservatives won minority in 2006

Harper's Conservative party has been in power since Jan. 23, 2006, when it won a minority of seats.

Heading into this election, the Conservatives held 127 seats, while the Liberals had 95. The Bloc Québecois had 48 seats, the New Democratic Party 30, and there were three Independent members of Parliament.

The Green party had one MP and four seats were vacant.

The calling of the Canada-wide vote means the cancellation of four federal byelections.

Three were set for Monday in the ridings of Guelph, Saint-Lambert , and Westmount-Ville-Marie. A fourth was to be held on Sept. 22 in Don Valley West.

After Harper made his announcement, Canada's chief electoral officer, Marc Mayrand, issued a press release confirming that the byelections would not take place.

This will be Canada's fifth general election in 11 years and the third in just over four years, dating back to June 2004.

The Conservatives had set a fixed date of Oct. 19, 2009, for the next vote, but Harper recently suggested he was ready to go sooner, and pulled the plug on his current minority government.
Like Mike, I'm hearing at least five Conservative ads on the radio a day and at least that many on TV, on Teletoon no less.

For those of us more familiar with Canadian law than myself: how is this legal since Harper himself passed the fixed election dates? And should the Opposition be taking it to the Supreme Court?
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Post by Solauren »

I don't know why anyone would bother taking him to the Supreme Court.

The idea of the fixed election dates was to make sure there was an election on or before that date. That way, you didn't have stunts like a government putting elections off.
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Post by Darth Wong »

If I were a Liberal campaign organizer, I would make sure my first campaign ad mentioned how much money the Conservative government spent on ads before even calling the election, and then showing a laundry list of all the politically motivated tricks the government has pulled.

Every action this government takes is designed to win elections. That's how they do things in the US. It's not how we'd like to run things in Canada.

But of course, I'm not a Liberal campaign organizer. The imbeciles in charge of the Liberal campaign will just try to make positive talking-point ads about Dion, thus ensuring that they lose. Mind you, simply having Dion as party leader pretty much ensures that they'll lose. He looks like he just recently extricated himself from the locker that Stephen Harper shoved him into in 9th grade.
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Post by Phantasee »

Darth Wong wrote:Mind you, simply having Dion as party leader pretty much ensures that they'll lose. He looks like he just recently extricated himself from the locker that Stephen Harper shoved him into in 9th grade.
This is what will guarantee another Conservative government, minority or not. The NDP are going to eat half of the lost Liberal votes, with the Conservatives taking the other half from the centrist side.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

This isn't looking good..I just saw this article today:

http://ca.reuters.com/article/domesticN ... 2520080908

(Small blurb)
Canada poll predicts strong Conservative majority
OTTAWA (Reuters) - A Canadian poll released on Monday predicted for the first time that Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper would be able to transform his minority government into a strong majority in the October 14 election.

The Segma poll, taken for La Presse newspaper, put support for the Conservatives at 43 percent, which the pollsters said would translate into 183 of the 308 seats in the House of Commons.

It predicted the main opposition Liberals would get 25 percent of the vote, translating into just 62 seats.

The Conservatives had 127 seats in the old Parliament, while the Liberals had 95.

Other big parties are the separatist Bloc Quebecois, with 48 seats and the left-wing New Democrats with 30 seats.
You know I get really pissed off at Quebec sometimes. I am 100% opposed to separation. I simply cannot see any country being stronger by being divided no matter how many pretty speeches are made to the contrary. I've always been willing to have them get special privileges to preserve the french culture, and indeed to have my blessing in doin so with no rancor whatsoever. They are an integral part of Canadian history and could (arguably) have been the dominant language and culture. They were also given quite the shaft in Atlantic Canada when they were all booted down south. So with that being said, I wish they would stop being so fucking selfish. Stop this half ass 'we're with you, but not completely with you" attitude.

As mentioned in the other article above:




Bloc Québécois Leader Gilles Duceppe said it was important to send a large number of Bloc MPs to Ottawa, and said his goal was to prevent Harper from gaining a majority.

"In order to have Quebec respected in Ottawa, we need to have a team that puts Quebec first," Duceppe said in Montreal. He represents the riding of Laurier-Sainte-Marie.

"With the Bloc, Quebec can present a united stand in Ottawa," he said. 'We want Quebec to be the winner."


Why are these fucking clowns in ANY positions of power? They quite clearly espouse separation as their core policy. There is no way in hell that ANY significant portion of the rest of Canada are going to vote for them. They are a complete waste of Quebec's potential in forming a decent government for all of Canada. They could actually be extremely influential if they would just kick that fucking party to the curb and vote responsibly.

'Put Quebec first'. What arrogance! Why the hell should their platform be "Quebec first"? It should be CANADIANS first. It may be culture that's the actual dividing line here, but it sure stinks the same as racism to me.
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Post by Phantasee »

Justforfun000 wrote:Why are these fucking clowns in ANY positions of power? They quite clearly espouse separation as their core policy. There is no way in hell that ANY significant portion of the rest of Canada are going to vote for them. They are a complete waste of Quebec's potential in forming a decent government for all of Canada. They could actually be extremely influential if they would just kick that fucking party to the curb and vote responsibly.
Um, no portion of the rest of Canada can vote for them. They only run in Quebec.

I am of the opinion that, right now, the BQ are a good force. There is no support for seperation right now, which means they aren't going to push us to another referendum, despite Duceppe's wet dreams, so the only role they have right now is to deny Harper a majority, keeping him on a decent-sized leash while the Liberals find their balls, next to their spines.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

Um, no portion of the rest of Canada can vote for them. They only run in Quebec.
Well that makes my point even stronger. They are useless as a federal party if they cannot represent Canada.
I am of the opinion that, right now, the BQ are a good force. There is no support for seperation right now, which means they aren't going to push us to another referendum, despite Duceppe's wet dreams, so the only role they have right now is to deny Harper a majority, keeping him on a decent-sized leash while the Liberals find their balls, next to their spines.
That only makes them a shade away from being COMPLETELY useless as a federal party, but it's not the better solution. Quebec should be voting for parties that ALL Canadians can vote for. It doesn't make sense to split your vote for a "one province only" representation.

Even though separation is on the down low, the party still wants it and that is not a good tenet for people to be tacitly supporting by voting for the Bloc even if they personally don't feel that way.
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Post by Phantasee »

Well, remember what happened last time the Conservatives had a huge majority? The Western half of the party left and formed the Reform party, which I believe only had members from Western Canada (particularly Alberta) elected, although I'm not sure if they ran full slates of candidates across the Country. This ruined the Conservatives last time, along with the start of the BQ, which was much more seperatist then. So even historically, we have had parties that serve barely any other purpose than stopping the Tories from winning. The BQ have risen and fallen with the fortunes of the Liberals since their inception, making the Liberal/NDP/BQ seats an anchor against Tory resurgence.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

Well, remember what happened last time the Conservatives had a huge majority? The Western half of the party left and formed the Reform party, which I believe only had members from Western Canada (particularly Alberta) elected, although I'm not sure if they ran full slates of candidates across the Country. This ruined the Conservatives last time, along with the start of the BQ, which was much more seperatist then. So even historically, we have had parties that serve barely any other purpose than stopping the Tories from winning. The BQ have risen and fallen with the fortunes of the Liberals since their inception, making the Liberal/NDP/BQ seats an anchor against Tory resurgence.
But there is a big difference here...the Reform party was attempting to represent all of Canada, and would eventually have gladly put representatives in every province and territory given the chance. They may have been a little pro-western, but it is fairly true that they have been a little shafted in the past in favour of Ontario and Quebec..

In any event, the big issue here is that the BQ is

A) Separatist as a tenet

B) Almost certain to never expand beyond the borders of Quebec and likely have no sympathy or common ground with the rest of Canada

C) Extremely selfish and culturally racist (if I can use that made up term).

I just cannot see how the people of Quebec can justify voting for them at all without admitting that this sends a clear message of "Here's to me and fuck the rest of you".
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