"If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

[ray245]

I want to find some of these idiots and say, "So what? So what if your kids know about gay marriage? You think homosexuality is some sort of disease that kids can pick up, like cooties? You think your kids are going to pick up cooties and turn gay and marry one of their same-gender friends two decades down the line? That's not how it works! And even if it did, which it doesn't, so what?" And so on. Everyone here has heard the arguments a dozen times at least.

However, I thought that social influence can affect your sexual peference to a certain extend? That there is never a clear cut line between a 'straight' or hetrosexual person and a homosexual person?

[DPDarkPrimus]

If simply finding out that gay people exist is all it's going to take to make little Jimmy swing the other way, then how heterosexual was he, ray?

[ray245]

If simply finding out that gay people exist is all it's going to take to make little Jimmy swing the other way, then how heterosexual was he, ray?

I thought that sexual peferences is never fixed until one reach adulthood? I mean it is possible for one girl or guy to be hetrosexual on his own if he did not have the influence over his sexual peference right?

[Pint0 Xtreme]

If simply finding out that gay people exist is all it's going to take to make little Jimmy swing the other way, then how heterosexual was he, ray?

I thought that sexual peferences is never fixed until one reach adulthood? I mean it is possible for one girl or guy to be hetrosexual on his own if he did not have the influence over his sexual peference right?

That's not true. Sexual orientation for some people are never fixed until adulthood and even if that was the case, there is no evidence that it can be affected socially.

[Alyrium Denryle]

If simply finding out that gay people exist is all it's going to take to make little Jimmy swing the other way, then how heterosexual was he, ray?

I thought that sexual peferences is never fixed until one reach adulthood? I mean it is possible for one girl or guy to be hetrosexual on his own if he did not have the influence over his sexual peference right?

No idiot. Sexual orientation is fixed prior to birth. How someone identifies or acts upon that orientation can be environmentally mediated (such as a bisexual person functioning in society as a heterosexual because it is easier) but what they are attracted to does not change. And even if it did shift until adulthood, every test ever done has ruled out any social factors which could possible effect such a shift.

Do I have to go into the long diatribe on phenotypic plasticity and quantitative genetics again?

[Akhlut]

They believe that ideas they disagree with are like viruses or bacteria, and that their children have some kind of intellectual AIDS, so the only way to "protect" them from these ideas is to scrub their environment clean of them.

Uh, but won't that have a similar effect as keeping one's immune system from ever fighting regular germs, so to speak? So, that when the kid does finally encounter ideas for the first time, the kid's entire worldview shatters?

Oh, right, fundies are retarded about things like that.

[Darth Wong]

They believe that ideas they disagree with are like viruses or bacteria, and that their children have some kind of intellectual AIDS, so the only way to "protect" them from these ideas is to scrub their environment clean of them.

Uh, but won't that have a similar effect as keeping one's immune system from ever fighting regular germs, so to speak? So, that when the kid does finally encounter ideas for the first time, the kid's entire worldview shatters?

Oh, right, fundies are retarded about things like that.

They've got a plan for that: the idea is to create an entire "parallel culture" where fundies can get their own TV shows, wrestling leagues, books, comics, music, and movies, all Christian-Approved. They're already implementing this by the way, and have been for a long time. And by the time they're adults and out into the world, the idea is that they've been so indoctrinated in their preferences that they will avoid the evil secular ThoughtCrime material on their own..

[Akhlut]

They believe that ideas they disagree with are like viruses or bacteria, and that their children have some kind of intellectual AIDS, so the only way to "protect" them from these ideas is to scrub their environment clean of them.

Uh, but won't that have a similar effect as keeping one's immune system from ever fighting regular germs, so to speak? So, that when the kid does finally encounter ideas for the first time, the kid's entire worldview shatters?

Oh, right, fundies are retarded about things like that.

They've got a plan for that: the idea is to create an entire "parallel culture" where fundies can get their own TV shows, wrestling leagues, books, comics, music, and movies, all Christian-Approved. They're already implementing this by the way, and have been for a long time. And by the time they're adults and out into the world, the idea is that they've been so indoctrinated in their preferences that they will avoid the evil secular ThoughtCrime material on their own..

That is downright terrifying. It reminds me of this cartoon.

[Oskuro]

Now why can't they do this in their own gated communities away from everyone progressive?

Because a very important part of making yourself suffer is making sure everyone else suffers too. And I mean it. Know that feeling when you've decided not to do something, say have a chocolate cake, and see someone else do it? That mix of jealousy and anger that often prompts thoughts such as "it'll be worse for him in the long run" or "he doesn't know what he's doing" but that really boils down just to "I don't want others to enjoy what I can't enjoy".

It's basic human egotism, but taken to a very nasty extreme.

[Darth Wong]

Now why can't they do this in their own gated communities away from everyone progressive?

That's their plan. The problem is that they want the entire United States to serve as that gated community.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I still say they should book this as, "vote no, and you may see some money from two male income earner couples throwing a party."

[Pint0 Xtreme]

I'm not sure where to put this as there are like three prop 8 threads but Apple's put in their chip

Apple donates $100,000 to fight Prop. 8
Apple Inc. is donating $100,000 to fight Proposition 8, which aims to end same-sex marriage in California by amending the constitution to define marriage as between a man and a woman.

"Apple was among the first California companies to offer equal rights and benefits to our employees' same-sex partners, and we strongly believe that a person's fundamental rights -- including the right to marry -- should not be affected by their sexual orientation," the company said in a statement posted on its Web site Friday.

Apple joins Google, which came out publicly against Prop. 8 last month. Google founders Sergey Brin and Larry Page reportedly have donated a combined $140,000 to fight the measure.

In revealing its support, Google officials voiced similar points, saying the company sees the issue as one of equality and is opposed to the elimination of fundamental rights.

"While we respect the strongly held beliefs that people have on both sides of this argument, we see this fundamentally as an issue of equality. We hope that California voters will vote no on Proposition 8 -- we should not eliminate anyone's fundamental rights, whatever their sexuality, to marry the person they love," Brin said.

It is not common practice for either company to take a stand on political measures. It remains to be seen what effect the move might have on Proposition 8 supporters, who might avoid doing business with companies that oppose the measure.

[The Yosemite Bear]

here's the deal, you don't finance and create any more of your stupid biggoted policies here, or we in CA start looking into weather or not the CA LDS are members/supporters of the FLDS. After all child molesting polygamists should be a more credible threat to children then this bullshit.

[sketerpot]

I just looked at Apple's and Google's announcements of their opposition to proposition 8, and I still can't believe my eyes. A few years ago it would have been inconceivable for enormous and well-known companies to spontaneously come out and officially support gay marriage. In public. In a tone that suggests that the right choice is obvious. Like the last part of Apple's announcement:

We strongly believe that a person’s fundamental rights — including the right to marry — should not be affected by their sexual orientation. Apple views this as a civil rights issue, rather than just a political issue, and is therefore speaking out publicly against Proposition 8.

I know the world is not substantially more enlightened today than it was yesterday, but this is a fucking good omen, and a sign of how far we've come in the past few years.


Tangentially, I predict that some time next year gay marriage will be legalized in Iowa. A stunned nation won't know what the hell just happened because, hey, it's Iowa. There's a case in the Iowa State supreme court, and I'm betting that they uphold the lower court decision to allow gay marriage. And if that happens, it takes years for a constitutional amendment to even come to a vote in Iowa.

Finally, things are going our way! Big companies are joining us without fear of public outcry, Obama has moved away from the "I oppose gay marriage but it should be left to the states" bullshit and straight-up said he opposes Proposition 8, THE STATES ARE FALLING ONE BY ONE, and NOT EVEN THE FARM STATES ARE SAFE!! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

[The Romulan Republic]

I just looked at Apple's and Google's announcements of their opposition to proposition 8, and I still can't believe my eyes. A few years ago it would have been inconceivable for enormous and well-known companies to spontaneously come out and officially support gay marriage. In public. In a tone that suggests that the right choice is obvious. Like the last part of Apple's announcement:

We strongly believe that a person’s fundamental rights — including the right to marry — should not be affected by their sexual orientation. Apple views this as a civil rights issue, rather than just a political issue, and is therefore speaking out publicly against Proposition 8.

I know the world is not substantially more enlightened today than it was yesterday, but this is a fucking good omen, and a sign of how far we've come in the past few years.

Indeed. We are making progress, and if we, pardon the expression, "stay the course" we could see progress beyond what we imagined a few years ago.

As an aside, I can now point to this whenever PC fans give me shit for being an Apple customer.

Tangentially, I predict that some time next year gay marriage will be legalized in Iowa. A stunned nation won't know what the hell just happened because, hey, it's Iowa. There's a case in the Iowa State supreme court, and I'm betting that they uphold the lower court decision to allow gay marriage. And if that happens, it takes years for a constitutional amendment to even come to a vote in Iowa.

Finally, things are going our way! Big companies are joining us without fear of public outcry, Obama has moved away from the "I oppose gay marriage but it should be left to the states" bullshit and straight-up said he opposes Proposition 8, THE STATES ARE FALLING ONE BY ONE, and NOT EVEN THE FARM STATES ARE SAFE!! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

In contradiction to what I just said, its too early to cry victory. Obama's got a huge lead, but with the fraudulent tactics of the GOP its not over till its over. All that could be reversed with the wrong Supreme Court nominees.

[Darth Wong]

I just looked at Apple's and Google's announcements of their opposition to proposition 8, and I still can't believe my eyes. A few years ago it would have been inconceivable for enormous and well-known companies to spontaneously come out and officially support gay marriage. In public. In a tone that suggests that the right choice is obvious.

Yeah, but this is in California. Think about how backward it is in shitholes like Alabama, where nearly half the population still thought interracial marriage should be illegal as of 2000:

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITIC ... terracial/

[Surlethe]

They've got a plan for that: the idea is to create an entire "parallel culture" where fundies can get their own TV shows, wrestling leagues, books, comics, music, and movies, all Christian-Approved. They're already implementing this by the way, and have been for a long time. And by the time they're adults and out into the world, the idea is that they've been so indoctrinated in their preferences that they will avoid the evil secular ThoughtCrime material on their own..

That's part of the very definition of "fundamentalist": withdraw from society and create a counterculture. They started doing that in the 1920s, after the Scopes Trial, actually. It wasn't until the 1970s that they realized they had real political muscle, and most of them started actively trying to turn America fundamentalist. They refer to the "Moses Generation" as the one that withdrew from society, and the "Joshua Generation" as the one that will take back America for God.

It's fascinating learning about fundamentalism, in a way, until I realize that this is my country; then, it's fucking scary.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

California is indeed different from a place like Alabamba, but CA is a state with a lot of land area, and outside of a few major metropolitan areas it's all cow towns and agriculture. Prop 8, the measure that would recriminalize gay marriage in CA, is by no means guaranteed to fail, and is in fact looking like it will pass.

[sketerpot]

Yeah, but this is in California. Think about how backward it is in shitholes like Alabama, where nearly half the population still thought interracial marriage should be illegal as of 2000:

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITIC ... terracial/

If we can get enough of the country to come to their senses, and if Obama wins the election and gets to appoint supreme court justices who won't ruin everything, then eventually Alabama's idiotic opinions on gay marriage won't matter any more than their idiotic opinions on interracial marriage.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Hey this is the same Alabama that once tried to have Pi=3 be the law of the land in their state.

Gah!

[Durandal]

California is indeed different from a place like Alabamba, but CA is a state with a lot of land area, and outside of a few major metropolitan areas it's all cow towns and agriculture. Prop 8, the measure that would recriminalize gay marriage in CA, is by no means guaranteed to fail, and is in fact looking like it will pass.

Well, let's not get hyperbolic about it. It wouldn't criminalize gay marriage; that would imply that there's some sort of black market for issuing marriage licenses to gay couples. It's just the state saying it won't marry a same-sex couple. It's a civil rights travesty, but it's not criminalizing gay marriage.

Also, the polls on Prop 8 are too close to call. In September, it was a nice, comfortable, 52/38 split against Prop 8. But what the Mormons shrewdly saw beyond that. Polls during the same time showed that Californians were basically equally divided on the concept of gay marriage. In other words, a lot of people saying they were going to vote against Prop 8 simply didn't think that an amendment to the state constitution was the right approach. So all the Mormons had to do was pump millions of dollars into an ad campaign convincing those people that it was the right approach.

And it's succeeded, so far. They lied and played on the fears of (once again) insecure, yuppie parents. One ad showed a little girl doing her homework, and her mother asks "What do you want to do when you grow up?" And the girl says, "I want to marry a princess." And then ... the mother looks confused and uncomfortable! Oh the horror! And then, some piece of shit professor from Pepperdine University talks about how, if Prop 8 doesn't pass, schools will have to teach kids about gay marriage and that churches will lose their tax-exempt status if they don't marry gay couples. (Never mind that the failure to pass a piece of legislation won't impose additional burdens on anyone, since, by definition, it won't change anything. How that little bit of legalese slipped by a professor at a very well-respected law school is beyond me.)

After I saw that slimy ad, I donated money against Prop 8.

[Durandal]

I just looked at Apple's and Google's announcements of their opposition to proposition 8, and I still can't believe my eyes. A few years ago it would have been inconceivable for enormous and well-known companies to spontaneously come out and officially support gay marriage. In public. In a tone that suggests that the right choice is obvious. Like the last part of Apple's announcement:

We strongly believe that a person’s fundamental rights — including the right to marry — should not be affected by their sexual orientation. Apple views this as a civil rights issue, rather than just a political issue, and is therefore speaking out publicly against Proposition 8.

I know the world is not substantially more enlightened today than it was yesterday, but this is a fucking good omen, and a sign of how far we've come in the past few years.

When I heard we were officially coming out against Prop 8, I was really damn proud to be working for Apple.

[Darth Wong]

And it's succeeded, so far. They lied and played on the fears of (once again) insecure, yuppie parents.

The yuppies are generally well above child-bearing age. It's a younger generation which is parenting young children now, and unfortunately, they seem scarcely more enlightened about child-rearing issues than the yuppies were.

One ad showed a little girl doing her homework, and her mother asks "What do you want to do when you grow up?" And the girl says, "I want to marry a princess." And then ... the mother looks confused and uncomfortable! Oh the horror! And then, some piece of shit professor from Pepperdine University talks about how, if Prop 8 doesn't pass, schools will have to teach kids about gay marriage and that churches will lose their tax-exempt status if they don't marry gay couples. (Never mind that the failure to pass a piece of legislation won't impose additional burdens on anyone, since, by definition, it won't change anything. How that little bit of legalese slipped by a professor at a very well-respected law school is beyond me.)

He probably believes that if the constitution is not amended to write anti-gay discrimination into law, the way will be clear for civil-rights groups to sue churches under the existing laws.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

For the longest time, we had been outspent 3-2 for the proposition 8 fight. The "Yes on 8" campaign had waited until October to launch their massive advertising barrage and energize their fundie base. Within a week, we saw the polls drift suddenly from general opposition to general support on prop 8. What happened after was a large counter-donation surge that now puts us neck to neck with the prop 8 supporters in terms of fund raising. In fact, it prompted me to buy over a hundred dollars in No On 8 merchandise (Bumper stickers, buttons, signs etc.). Today's AP report puts us at 32.3 mil and the prop 8 supporters at 28.2 mil.

But the fight isn't over and I expect a large surge in "Yes on 8" donations in response. The fundie base is also mobilizing for a massive rally in San Diego just before the election. The "No on 8" crowd is organizing a display of visibility from Oct30-Nov4th. I'll probably pitch in my time on the weekends to go. This fight is extremely close and it's gotten me incredibly nervous.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I think that where they are saying losing tax exempt status is what they've done in the Prop-8 case. It's been the mormons and the catholic church financing this one.