Gun sales jump following election

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Beowulf
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by Beowulf »

Grenade launchers are overkill, admittedly. They're also nearly impossible to actually get, following under most of the same restrictions as machine guns.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by Coyote »

ray245 wrote:Why can't you use a airsoft gun instead? Why can't you use them for target shooting? I have used a assault rifle in my military cadet days, and I do enjoy it.
Why do I have to use an Airsoft gun? Airsoft doesn't fire the same way a real firearm does, it's not an accurate test of the actual skill. I need more rationale than "to make some guy on the internet feel better".

Just because other people do it is no justifcation for owning a gun in my opinion.
I never used "what other people do" as a justification for my ownership. I did point out that many people own guns (which is true) and they aren't causing crimes (also true) so I still don't see your justification for the restrictions you'd put on me, and others like me, because of what someone else did.

I mean, by that defination, we should allow people to carry guns onto the airplane instead, simply due to the fact I know I will not use the gun and attack others on the plane, and I am not responsible for the action of others.
Actually, a gun on a plane is a bad idea, since the damage of firing a weapon in a plane can be problematic, and in the close quarters the chances of hitting an innocent passenger is too high. I'd prefer crews be armed with non-lethal alternatives. An innocent victim will wake up from a taser, for example, but that's just my thoughts on it.

By the way, I am against private ownership of cars, and consumption of Alcohol as well.
All well and good for you, but you realize that most people do not fit this mindset, right?

Sorry, but the burden of proof is not on me to justify having a gun; the burden of proof, according to US law anyway, is on you to come up with a reason why I should not. The actions of another person are not grounds for you restricting my rights.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by Coyote »

Beowulf wrote:Grenade launchers are overkill, admittedly. They're also nearly impossible to actually get, following under most of the same restrictions as machine guns.
Well, military grade ones are, anyway. Most military grenade launchers are 40mm, while most civilian launchers are 37mm. So you cannot fire a military grenade through a civilian launcher.

Civilian grenade launchers are typically used to launch flares, smoke, tear gas, or "screechers" (used for scaring wildlife in rural areas). And I think the tear gas ones require a purchase order from a law-enforcement or armed security guard organization...
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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ArcturusMengsk
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by ArcturusMengsk »

This issue is the single biggest load of bullshit in American politics. Every gun owner I know in real life, without exception, is a petulant boy-man who needs the security a firearm gives him to bolster his self-confidence. As it is, I'd just as soon the Democratic Party gave the whiners what they want and maybe attract a bit more of the libertarian vote than it already does. But the idea that gun owners would vote against their economic interests just for the primal rush of firing an M16 or whatever is fucking insane.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by Raxmei »

Beowulf wrote:Grenade launchers are overkill, admittedly. They're also nearly impossible to actually get, following under most of the same restrictions as machine guns.
I hear target practice with grenade launchers and inert projectiles is a fine way to kill an afternoon. Of course most people would have a lot of trouble getting their hands on explosive grenades, let alone a launcher.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

ArcturusMengsk wrote:This issue is the single biggest load of bullshit in American politics. Every gun owner I know in real life, without exception, is a petulant boy-man who needs the security a firearm gives him to bolster his self-confidence. As it is, I'd just as soon the Democratic Party gave the whiners what they want and maybe attract a bit more of the libertarian vote than it already does. But the idea that gun owners would vote against their economic interests just for the primal rush of firing an M16 or whatever is fucking insane.
Well, there are several possibilities for this.

1 - You know very few gun owners

2 - Your choice in people you associate with is shitty

3 - You aren't being honest

4 - Not everyone brags that they own a firearm.

It really pisses me off when people use their extremely limited experience and think that experience justifies their stereotype.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by ArcturusMengsk »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:1 - You know very few gun owners
I live in southern fucking Illinois, which is the midwestern equivalent of Virginny. Every redneck worth his weight in barbecue around here has at least a shotgun.
2 - Your choice in people you associate with is shitty
No, it's just that the rednecks around here are shitty people.
It really pisses me off when people use their extremely limited experience and think that experience justifies their stereotype.
Shut the fuck up. The people I know that own firearms are almost walking stereotypes themselves.
Diocletian had the right idea.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by Coyote »

ArcturusMengsk wrote:This issue is the single biggest load of bullshit in American politics. Every gun owner I know in real life, without exception, is a petulant boy-man who needs the security a firearm gives him to bolster his self-confidence. As it is, I'd just as soon the Democratic Party gave the whiners what they want and maybe attract a bit more of the libertarian vote than it already does. But the idea that gun owners would vote against their economic interests just for the primal rush of firing an M16 or whatever is fucking insane.
Hence why I understood what Obama meant when he said "they become bitter, and cling to guns or religion". The economy goes to shit, they ask their Republican masters why everything is going to shit; the Republican leadership waves a Bible or a gun and says "the libruls will take them awaaaayyy..." and the dumbasses go back into zombie-land and vote Repub again.

It's the same reason they get worked up over the "death tax"-- a tax that only impacts people who stand to inherit at least $300,000.00 or more. Or why they screech about "socialism and wealth re-distribution" when, in fact, most of them would be the ones that benefit from it.

The sad truth is, the Republican Party base is made up of a few millionaires, and a teeming mass of really gullible people who are easily sidetracked by "social" issues that the millionaires use to keep 'em voting.

Really, the very idea that filthy, unwashed peasants could bear arms (a right once reserved only for the Nobility) is, in fact, rooted in liberalism, and liberals have as much at stake in gun rights as anyone else, if not more so.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by Coyote »

Raxmei wrote:
Beowulf wrote:Grenade launchers are overkill, admittedly. They're also nearly impossible to actually get, following under most of the same restrictions as machine guns.
I hear target practice with grenade launchers and inert projectiles is a fine way to kill an afternoon. Of course most people would have a lot of trouble getting their hands on explosive grenades, let alone a launcher.
See what I posted above: civilian launchers tend to be 37mm, military launchers are 40mm. You can't fire a military grenade through a civilian launcher, and as far as I know there are no 37mm hi-explosive grenades made for the civilian market.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by Coyote »

ArcturusMengsk wrote:Shut the fuck up. The people I know that own firearms are almost walking stereotypes themselves.
So you admit basing your images of an entire group based on stereotypes. How... progressive.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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ArcturusMengsk
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by ArcturusMengsk »

Coyote wrote:
ArcturusMengsk wrote:Shut the fuck up. The people I know that own firearms are almost walking stereotypes themselves.
So you admit basing your images of an entire group based on stereotypes. How... progressive.
Let me remind you that I presently live in a trailer. I base my view of these people on what I see every day.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by Count Chocula »

Ender, two things, addressed in order:

1) the grenade launcher thing. 40mm grenades are classed as "Destructive Devices" and in states that allow them (I don't believe IL is one of them, BTW) are subject to the same criteria for ownership as automatic weapons and suppressors, i.e. a $600 application fee, fingerprints, and a federal NICS check. The "grenade launchers" that were part of the original AWB were 37mm grenade launchers. 37mm rounds available for sale include tear gas (for police), flare, and bird buster rounds. As a pilot, I sincerely appreciate the "bird busters," which go BOOM and scare away the birds at the airport which may otherwise hit me during takeoff or landing. AFAIK, there are no flechette, HE, or shot rounds available for 37mm.

2) there is no requirement that all guns in all states be sold with trigger locks. In California, where I lived until 1999, trigger locks were made mandatory and were required to be on the gun (IIRC) unless it was at the range. If you did not have trigger locks on your guns, and had children in the house, again IIRC, it was a felony offense. That complicates self-defense a little bit. If you are a good little gun owner, with children, who obeys the laws, your home defense pistol or shotgun will have a lock on the trigger if someone comes through a window or door to your home. Ergo, instead of waking up and grabbing a gun to deal with the threat, you would have to wake up, wake up some more, remember where you put the key to the damn trigger lock, find it, go to your gun, put the key in right probably under extreme stress and in the dark, and THEN deal with the threat. The purpose of the trigger lock legislation, at least in California when I lived there, was to hinder a person's ability to defend themselves.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

ArcturusMengsk wrote: I live in southern fucking Illinois, which is the midwestern equivalent of Virginny. Every redneck worth his weight in barbecue around here has at least a shotgun.
Great. So, you know like ten?
No, it's just that the rednecks around here are shitty people.
So, that relates to this thread how? Why are you even telling us this...? Who gives a shit. You live by stupid people that legally own guns. How about an on topic post...have they used these legally owned guns to murder someone? How does this relate to the issue of the second amendment. Is this your way of saying that there should be an intelligence test, or a maturity test before owning a firearm?
Shut the fuck up. The people I know that own firearms are almost walking stereotypes themselves.
Yay, more unverifiable shit.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by Count Chocula »

Reflections in a mirror, Arcturus. Reflections in a mirror. The demographics and incomes of gun owners vs. non-gun owners may surprise you.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by ArcturusMengsk »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Great. So, you know like ten?
There are more people than that in my own family that own guns, and not a single one of them is worth the flesh they inhabit. If empirical evidence is permissible, I've noticed that weapons and bad personality types seem to go hand-in-hand.
Is this your way of saying that there should be an intelligence test, or a maturity test before owning a firearm?
I hadn't thought of that, but in retrospect it isn't a bad idea. Anyone who applies for a weapon ought to be required to take a battery of psychological tests. I'm pretty certain it would disqualify nine-tenths of the useless trash that live in my town.
The demographics and incomes of gun owners vs. non-gun owners may surprise you.
Yeah, but I'm sure the intelligence quotients wouldn't.

And with that I'm done in this thread.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by Ekiqa »

You know, if you limited the sale of firearms to the government, the supply of arms in the black market would eventually dry up.

Guns HAVE to come from some legal source, either bought or stolen, before they could enter the criminal world. Stop distributing them to places where they could be taken from, i.e. houses or stores, and your problem will eventually go away.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by ray245 »

Coyote wrote: Why do I have to use an Airsoft gun? Airsoft doesn't fire the same way a real firearm does, it's not an accurate test of the actual skill. I need more rationale than "to make some guy on the internet feel better".
What about simulators that armies used? In my military cadet days, we trained using a gun simulator first. Why can't you use that if it is available? In Singapore, where arms are not allowed, people can go down to science centres to use those simulators. Also if I remember correctly, even neighbouring military association clubs do include firing simulators. If your neighbourhood don’t have them, just live with the fact.

There are many enjoyments in life that we cannot have, and since it is only something that is used for leisure, why is it so hard to give up one luxury item? If you don't have a chance to test your skills accurate enough, then just live with it.

And if I remember, even firearms do not fire the same way as well. Every weapon has a different feel when you are shooting it. At the very least, Airsoft allows you to have the enjoyment of shooting something with minimum risk.

If I got the chance, I would rather support the US government taxing guns like crazy, until it becomes a luxury private item, costing millions to buy a single handgun, and thousands of dollars to buy a single bullet.
"to make some guy on the internet feel better"
Please, if my discussion style is not like this, would anyone even like to listen to me or hear me out if I oppose your ideas? If you feel better, or less angry, you will be more open to accepting my views. Angry person are irrational people, most of the time anyway.
I never used "what other people do" as a justification for my ownership. I did point out that many people own guns (which is true) and they aren't causing crimes (also true) so I still don't see your justification for the restrictions you'd put on me, and others like me, because of what someone else did.
Sure, what about the fact those guns give people an easier avenue to kill and injure a person? Due to the fact that society as a whole is irresponsible unless you smack down several hard and strict laws, you have to give up certain rights thanks to society being imperfect.

Look at SD.net for example; the only reason why the board culture is free of conservatism here is due to the heavy enforcement, rules and regulation imposed on this board. You either make the law solid, or you let the law be extremely flexible. We can never tell if a person is responsible or not, until a crime or murder has been committed. And because it is much easier to commit a murder or injuring with a person with a gun compared to other things, you have to take away guns from the public.
Actually, a gun on a plane is a bad idea, since the damage of firing a weapon in a plane can be problematic, and in the close quarters the chances of hitting an innocent passenger is too high. I'd prefer crews be armed with non-lethal alternatives. An innocent victim will wake up from a taser, for example, but that's just my thoughts on it.

Wait, are you saying someone should be allowed to fire a gun on the plane in the first place? Bear in mind I am not talking about crews, but normal passengers being allowed to carry arms onto the plane.

All well and good for you, but you realize that most people do not fit this mindset, right?

Sorry, but the burden of proof is not on me to justify having a gun; the burden of proof, according to US law anyway, is on you to come up with a reason why I should not. The actions of another person are not grounds for you restricting my rights.


Well, I'll do my best to change that mindset, even if it is hard.

The only way to ensure a law is followed is to make the law strict and all encompassing. To restrict irresponsible people in society from using the guns and cause harm, you right have to be taken away as well, or else, the law will have loopholes, such as (how the hell do you define a person being responsible in the first place? His history? So that means people who murder a person is a responsible person until he killed someone? ) defining a responsible person.

In order to prevent loopholes, your right have to be taken away thanks to some irresponsible people in society. Life sucks right?

Even if I support a outright ban, I know that is it impossible in the USA. So, we are left with the option of taxing and raising the price of a gun and bullets to ridiculous price, until the ultra-rich, people who has an asset of over ten million dollars and higher can afford a SINGLE handgun.

To afford a much better gun, your asset needs to be on the level of Warren Buffett to afford a multi-million dollar gun.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by K. A. Pital »

Yeah, figures since most handguns are stolen handguns which were taken from the legal market. If you dry up the gun aquisition channels, illegal circulation volumes would likewise decrease.

However, you forget the massive amount of handguns already on-hands in America. With such a large concentration of firearms, the black market will sustain itself from 200+ million gun pool in citizen hands, even after the government totally bans handgun circulation.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by JCady »

Beowulf wrote:
MRDOD wrote:Wow, now I want a Hello Kitty Assault Rifle. That's a semi-automatic/civilian AR-15, right? So it's not banned under an automatic weapons ban any more than a 9mm pistol would be. Unless there's something horribly wrong with congress's definition of automatic.
It's not Congress's definition of automatic, but their definition of "Assault Rifle", which is basically a bunch of features someone found scary, so they banned having more than two of the features on a gun. One of the features was "detachable magazine". Another was "pistol grip stock".
The California state version is even worse. It basically repeats all of the federal assault weapons ban provisions, PLUS specifically bans all AK and AR series rifles, any detachable magazine semiautomatic rifle with a pistol grip, thumbhole stock, folding/telescoping stock, grenade/flare launcher, flash suppressor, or forward pistol grip, any fixed magazine semiautomatic rifle with a capacity of over ten rounds, and any semiautomatic rifle shorter than 30 inches.

And we're still stuck with it.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by Coyote »

Ekiqa wrote:You know, if you limited the sale of firearms to the government, the supply of arms in the black market would eventually dry up.

Guns HAVE to come from some legal source, either bought or stolen, before they could enter the criminal world. Stop distributing them to places where they could be taken from, i.e. houses or stores, and your problem will eventually go away.
Actually, they'd flood up through Central American and Mexico, and be made in underground operations. You think organized crime won't step in to fill the vacuum? You're naive.

Besides, you still haven't addressed the fact that you're using someone else's behavior to rationalize restricting people who've done nothing wrong. Wasn't that PATRIOT Act type shenanigans?
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by ray245 »

Stas Bush wrote:Yeah, figures since most handguns are stolen handguns which were taken from the legal market. If you dry up the gun aquisition channels, illegal circulation volumes would likewise decrease.

However, you forget the massive amount of handguns already on-hands in America. With such a large concentration of firearms, the black market will sustain itself from 200+ million gun pool in citizen hands, even after the government totally bans handgun circulation.
Ban bullets then, sooner or later, those guns will be useless without any bullets in society. With bullets being extremely rare, the use of guns will drop.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by JCady »

Beowulf wrote:Grenade launchers are overkill, admittedly. They're also nearly impossible to actually get, following under most of the same restrictions as machine guns.
From what I've heard, grenade launchers are not that hard to get. It's the grenade ammunition that's nearly impossible to get, since each individual grenade round is considered a Destructive Device and you have to have a permit for it.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by JCady »

ArcturusMengsk wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Great. So, you know like ten?
There are more people than that in my own family that own guns, and not a single one of them is worth the flesh they inhabit. If empirical evidence is permissible, I've noticed that weapons and bad personality types seem to go hand-in-hand.
Statistical evidence suggests that your empirical evidence is the exception rather than the rule. Statistically speaking, gun owners are the most law abiding demographic in America.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by Count Chocula »

I'd hate to price out a case of 40mm HE. What's your most likely source, FN in Belgium? Ouch. And my local range is only 200 yards; I'd only be able to bang 'em off at Knob Creek, if I could get a range lane.
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Re: Gun sales jump following election

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Kar Kar wrote:
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:Why does anyone need to own replica swords or comic books or bath oils or DVDs? Because some people like collecting that sort of thing, some people think it's cool, some people like going down to the range to pop off a few rounds.
How many people get killed or commit crimes with replica swords or comic books or bath oils or DVDs? I bet DVDs are a real killer.

I'd try to find statistics on the deaths caused by those things, but I doubt anyone has done a study.
You'll find that assault weapons bring very little to the table crime-wise(numbers war from less than a percent to a few from what I've seen).

You see these things which are just regular semi-automatic rifles, they don't hide easily, they are expensive, most people inclined to violent crime can't afford them, nor would they serve them any purpose. Such a criminal would be better off with a knife even. These things they are bought for sporting and recreational purpose by people with a disposable income. And hey you can even own them in Canada and most of Europe(France,Germany,Belgium,Norway,Sweden,Finland,etc, etc.), even bloody England allows them(converted to single shot for centerfires, semiauto is allowed for .22lr).
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
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