Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

Post by mr friendly guy »

General Zod wrote:I wonder if the King of Thailand is aware of the irony of jailing somebody for a number of years for having the audacity to suggest that the king in question might be abusing their power.
According to the article
Bhumibol has no major official role in politics but commands immense respect from most Thais and is credited as being the nation's unifying force in times of crisis.
I am confused about how much role the King actually plays, but I always thought he was mainly just a really really glorified figure head which everyone is supposed to ask for advice only when the shit hits the fan, otherwise the countries elected officials continue governing.

In which case it seems pointless accusing him of abusing power he doesn't seem to have. I do note that in some circumstances he apparently can pardon someone, but without knowing what its hard to really accuse him to abusing power.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

mr friendly guy wrote:I am confused about how much role the King actually plays, but I always thought he was mainly just a really really glorified figure head which everyone is supposed to ask for advice only when the shit hits the fan, otherwise the countries elected officials continue governing.
I suspect the King attempts to portray himself above politics, while his advisory council does his dirty work. The recent coup for example was done with the grace of the head of his advisory council.
In which case it seems pointless accusing him of abusing power he doesn't seem to have. I do note that in some circumstances he apparently can pardon someone, but without knowing what its hard to really accuse him to abusing power.
Well, he has however "told" Prime Ministers to step down before. Of course, given the filmsy respect the Thais have for their constitution, that isn't really regarded as abnormal.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

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Presumably by "told" you mean it can never been proven it was really done by the king but it most probably was?

If the King has real behind the scenes power, then I will withdraw my statement to General Zod.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

Post by AniThyng »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Sarevok wrote:What is it about Asia and the tendency to form cults of personalities that elevate leaders to deity like status ?
We never grew out of our need for a king. There are very few countries in Asia that willingly removed their king and replaced him with a representative government.
Personally, with PAS on the rise, I find it advantageous to have the western educated Malay Sultans as a moderating influence. The whole Yoga fatwa issue (which I admit had nothing to do with PAS) was very publicly opposed by some of the Sultans. Arguably though, the "Kings" in this instance are the ruling party's oliagarchy and not the actual Monarchy...
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

mr friendly guy wrote:Presumably by "told" you mean it can never been proven it was really done by the king but it most probably was?

If the King has real behind the scenes power, then I will withdraw my statement to General Zod.
The story goes that in one of the coups in the 90s, when there was a mass protest and the military intervened, the two rivals who were posturing at each other. THey were summoned to the palace by the King. Later, when they emerged, one of the rivals, the Prime Minister, resigned.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The story goes that in one of the coups in the 90s, when there was a mass protest and the military intervened, the two rivals who were posturing at each other. THey were summoned to the palace by the King. Later, when they emerged, one of the rivals, the Prime Minister, resigned.
No. What happened took place in May 1992, called Black May now. The existing government was a military junta run by General Suchinda. There had been some elections which had elected a civilian government and which the junta had disregarded and that caused mass demonstrations across Bangkok demanding a return to democracy, Suchinda responded by bringing in para-military troops from countryside areas to disperse said crowds. Those paramilitaries had no training in riot control an, in any case, had a deep dislike of Bangkokians. They more or less went berserk and started shooting into the crowds. The death toll went skywards and two things happened. One was that the regularA rmy started organizing an assault on Bangkok to clear the paramilitaries out and protect the demonstrators. The other was that the King saw the shooting on television. He immediately summoned General Suchinda and the leader of the pro-democracy demonstrators to "discuss" the situation on prime time television the next day. In the emantime, people were to go back to their homes and troops were to stay in their barracks. That's exactly what happened. Next day, on prime time television (at high noon actually which was more than symbolic), the King asked General Suchinda to explain himself. The General gave a long-winded speech to which the King listened politely, then he asked the leader of the demonstrators for his explanation. Another long-winded speech. Then the King pointed at the demonstrators leader and said "He is right." Then he pointed at General Suchinda. "You are wrong. Crawl across the floor and apologize."

General Suchinda, on prime time television remember with half the population watching, crawled on his hands and knees across the studio floor and apologized to the leader of the demonstrators and asked forgiveness for his actions and the conduct of his troops.

The King then appointed the leader of the demonstrators as the new prime minister with instructions to restore democracy.
Some more general comments
King Bhumibol is a genuinely good and honorable man. He has very little theoretical power but he has immense influence due to the fact that he is unconditionally loved and respected by the population. He got into that position by sheer hard work and constant attention to the needs of the people. He's spent a lot of his personal time and scads of personal cash on aid to farmers and the rural population. He's done things like making some villages "King's Villages" where new agricultural techniques and so on are tried out. They act as foci for improving the life of farmers in the area. There are King's Projects where he has used his own money to pay for development projects that have no hope of being funded normally due to their lack of obvious financial return but which were badly needed. Whenever there was a disaster, he and his family are there, not just looking around but actually doing things to get help in. There's one famous case during flooding quite a few years back when villagers were trying to repair a dyke that had burst. The villagers were digging away, trying to fill the breech when one of them looked at his neighbor. The King had quietly joined the work crew and was shovelling away with everybody else. No TV cameras, no photo-opportunities, just joining in the effort to do something.

Politically, the King has used that influence to try and keep things quietened down. He cannot, and does not, directly create legislation or rule but he does make his opinions known and, because he has forty years demonstrated history of trying to do the best thing possible for his country, when he does say something, people listen. Traditionally, his main contribution has been to tell people to "cool it". He's kept his own political positions very quiet, his constant refrain has been that violence and civil unrest solve nothing and only make the situation worse. People should cool down and compromise. He's spoken out against several different prime minsters and other rulers who have moved too far away from the center or have been unduly favoring one sector of the population against another. However, just to hammer the point home, he has no official power. He can't repeal or initiate legislation and he can't, on his own, tell a ruling figure to go pound sand. If a Prime Minister gets elected, the King can't change that. If there's a coup (another fun aspect of Thai politics that gets broadly misunderstood) he can't tell the Generals who have just taken power to go away. What he can do is to tell people that "this really isn't a good idea" or "Do you really think this is wise?" Because he has an established reputation (a well-deserved one) for justice and fairness, people listen and act on his advice. That's it.

Example, during the last part of Thaksin Shinawatra's time as Prime Minister, there were massive demonstrations against Thaksin and his TRT Party. The whys and wherefors of that situation aren't important here and they'd need a long essay to go into, but the critical point is that Thaksin was accused of electoral abuse and rigging the results plus a few other things. The King's advice was quite simple "this is an issue that the courts will address as soon as possible". In short, stop demonstrating and leave this issue to the courts. People did. Unfortunately, Thaksin also didn't take the hint and not only ignored teh courts but he tried to pack them with his political appointees. In the end he did the same with the Army promotion list and that cost him his job. Straight word on Thailand. Don't mess with the Thai Army They're very good at what they do. The Army took Thaksin out because he was interfering on Army turf, not because of any back-room machinations.

King Bhumibol is unconditionally loved by the overwhelming majority of the population and publically insulting the Monarchy in Thailand is a good way of getting lynched. An example, I was in a cinema once with my then-girlfriend and there was a foreign tourist in the row in front accompanied by a lady of negotiable virtue. In Thai cinemas, they play the national anthem after each performance and put a picture of the King up on the screen. Everybody stands to attention and nobody tries to leave early. Except, the tourist in front of us was slouching around with his hands in his pocket. His partner looked at him out of the corner of her eyes, then slammed her stilleto heel down on his foot. As soon as the anthem was over, she turned and walked away leaving him flat (and she got polite applause for her action). Remember, in those days, tourists (Walking ATMs as the girls called them) were the Holy Grail for any Thai lady of negotiable virtue. That girl took a big hit financially by walking out on her client, money she probably needed quite badly. The Lese Majeste laws may be antiquated and passe but they reflect the overall attitude of the population. Politicians who have disrespected the King find their careers end rather abruptly.

On Lese Majeste laws. King Bhumibol has made known, very publically, that he does not approve of them and would like to see them repealed. In one of his Brithday speeches (I think the last one) he said (paraphrased). "Nobody in the Kingdom is above criticism, not even me. Criticism is very important and should be encouraged since, without criticism, how can we learn to do our jobs better?" That was a double-barrelled criticism, firstly of the Lese Majeste laws and secondly of the habit developed by some politicians (especially Thaksin Shinawatra) of suing anybody who criticised them for libel. The problem is that the overwhelming majority of people want those laws in place and any attempt to repeal them would be defeated. Also, they do serve a useful purpose. As I said, insulting the King is a good way of getting lynched; one product of the Lese Majeste laws is that it allows the Police to put the perp somewhere relatively safe until the temperature cools down. But, as I said, the King really doesn't like the Lese Majeste laws and invariably he pardons the offender as soon as public attention has moved away from the issue. The problem now is that the Lese Majeste laws are being abused by various political groups for their own ends. This is actually a response to Thaksin's use of libel laws to silence his opponents. This development may give the King the excuse he's been looking for to have the laws abolished.

As to "Australia not allowing" the perp in this case to be jailed, that's an absurd statement and, frankly, racist. Countries are sovereign entities, they have their own laws and legal systems. When somebody goes to a country, they implicitly agree to be bound by the laws of that country and if they break them, they bear the consequences. Usually, an Embassy will try to ensure that its citizen gets a fair trial but that's it. Trying to assert that a country should override the laws of a country in favor of its own is called extra-territoriality and is a much-hated and derided aspect of the racist and colonialist past. If you don't like the laws of a country, don't go there but don't ask your government to commit an act of war to get you out when you break those laws. In this case, the Australian Embassy is doing the best possible thing, keeping their mouths shut because they know the King will pardon the guy in a few days when public attention has shifted to something else. Kicking up a fuss will only prolong public interest and thus the time the guy spends inside. By the way, in this case, it smells to me like the perp offended somebody really important in the Police or government and this is pay-back.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stuart wrote:No. What happened took place in May 1992, called Black May now. The existing government was a military junta run by General Suchinda. There had been some elections which had elected a civilian government and which the junta had disregarded and that caused mass demonstrations across Bangkok demanding a return to democracy, Suchinda responded by bringing in para-military troops from countryside areas to disperse said crowds. Those paramilitaries had no training in riot control an, in any case, had a deep dislike of Bangkokians. They more or less went berserk and started shooting into the crowds. The death toll went skywards and two things happened. One was that the regularA rmy started organizing an assault on Bangkok to clear the paramilitaries out and protect the demonstrators. The other was that the King saw the shooting on television. He immediately summoned General Suchinda and the leader of the pro-democracy demonstrators to "discuss" the situation on prime time television the next day. In the emantime, people were to go back to their homes and troops were to stay in their barracks. That's exactly what happened. Next day, on prime time television (at high noon actually which was more than symbolic), the King asked General Suchinda to explain himself. The General gave a long-winded speech to which the King listened politely, then he asked the leader of the demonstrators for his explanation. Another long-winded speech. Then the King pointed at the demonstrators leader and said "He is right." Then he pointed at General Suchinda. "You are wrong. Crawl across the floor and apologize."

General Suchinda, on prime time television remember with half the population watching, crawled on his hands and knees across the studio floor and apologized to the leader of the demonstrators and asked forgiveness for his actions and the conduct of his troops.

The King then appointed the leader of the demonstrators as the new prime minister with instructions to restore democracy.
Guess I forgot the details, again. I stand corrected.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

Post by Bilbo »

Stuart wrote:
King Bhumibol is a genuinely good and honorable man. He has very little theoretical power but he has immense influence due to the fact that he is unconditionally loved and respected by the population. He got into that position by sheer hard work and constant attention to the needs of the people. He's spent a lot of his personal time and scads of personal cash on aid to farmers and the rural population. He's done things like making some villages "King's Villages" where new agricultural techniques and so on are tried out. They act as foci for improving the life of farmers in the area. There are King's Projects where he has used his own money to pay for development projects that have no hope of being funded normally due to their lack of obvious financial return but which were badly needed. Whenever there was a disaster, he and his family are there, not just looking around but actually doing things to get help in. There's one famous case during flooding quite a few years back when villagers were trying to repair a dyke that had burst. The villagers were digging away, trying to fill the breech when one of them looked at his neighbor. The King had quietly joined the work crew and was shovelling away with everybody else. No TV cameras, no photo-opportunities, just joining in the effort to do something.
So what I said was true. At this point in time if there was not this law then the average rural Thai might feel it necessary to defend the "honor" of the King himself and possibly quite violently. So the law in a weird sort of way protects people like this. They get arrested instead of beaten or killed and within a few days the King pardons the person. At which point I figure the person is put on a plane and told not to come back.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

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Bilbo wrote:So what I said was true. At this point in time if there was not this law then the average rural Thai might feel it necessary to defend the "honor" of the King himself and possibly quite violently. So the law in a weird sort of way protects people like this. They get arrested instead of beaten or killed and within a few days the King pardons the person. At which point I figure the person is put on a plane and told not to come back.
That's exactly right. Foreigners are usually thrown out but locals go to a monastery and become monks for a few weeks to make merit and do penance. The critical thing is that the King actually deserves the respect he gets. If President Obama does a quarter of the good that King Bhumibol has done, I might even think about voting Democrat.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

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Stuart wrote:That's exactly right. Foreigners are usually thrown out but locals go to a monastery and become monks for a few weeks to make merit and do penance. The critical thing is that the King actually deserves the respect he gets. If President Obama does a quarter of the good that King Bhumibol has done, I might even think about voting Democrat.
I find that somewhat difficult to swallow. This is a man who does nothing about people getting imprisoned in his name for ludicrous crimes while making empty platitudes against it and has people worship him as a demigod. This dude's personal title includes like, what, four or five repetitions of the word great and at least one reference to being an avatar of Vishnu? No one deserves that sort of respect and only tyrants demand it. As I said before, the line "Oh, I'M personally against it, but it's what the people want!" was an old line when it was said in latin, let alone now. What action has he taken against these things? That Australian guy didn't do ANYTHING against his person and he's facing a bigger sentence than I would if I randomly decided to bash someone over the head with a chemistry textbook. What honorable, good man tolerates that law existing at all?

Other countries have laws against defaming the sitting monarch too, but few bother to enforce them, particularly not with significant jail time. Hell, England has one and I'm sitting within three feet of an album by a group of fine British lads collectively known as the Sex Pistols, which contains a fun little song called "God Save the Queen", which directly references Queen Elizabeth II. The Sex Pistols went to prison for an extended period of time and were fined a hefty penalty... oh, wait.. they didn't, the BBC merely wouldn't play it and the controversy pushed it to #1 on the UK Charts.

Of course, King Bhumibol's people would have had an equivalent Thai band thrown in the slam forever for exercising free speech. That's not the mark of good leader, it's repugnant.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

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I find that somewhat difficult to swallow. This is a man who does nothing about people getting imprisoned in his name for ludicrous crimes while making empty platitudes against it and has people worship him as a demigod. This dude's personal title includes like, what, four or five repetitions of the word great and at least one reference to being an avatar of Vishnu? No one deserves that sort of respect and only tyrants demand it. As I said before, the line "Oh, I'M personally against it, but it's what the people want!" was an old line when it was said in latin, let alone now. What action has he taken against these things? That Australian guy didn't do ANYTHING against his person and he's facing a bigger sentence than I would if I randomly decided to bash someone over the head with a chemistry textbook. What honorable, good man tolerates that law existing at all?
He almost always pardons people who get jailed for insulting him, and he is doing everything he legally can to get them abolished. He can't pass laws, and he can't repeal legislation. The people like the idea of them there, and the politicians find them expedient enough to not tamper with them. He tolerates the law because he must, and because there is no alternative. And, ftr, his title is

Phrabat Somdet Phra Paramintharamaha Bhumibol Adulyadej Mahitalathibet Ramathibodi Chakkrinaruebodin Sayamminthrathirat Borommanatthabophit

Which includes only one reference to being the avatar of vishnu.

Edit: He's also one hell of a saxaphone player. :mrgreen:
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

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Gil Hamilton wrote: This is a man who does nothing about people getting imprisoned in his name for ludicrous crimes while making empty platitudes against it and has people worship him as a demigod.
Did you read anything I said? The King is doing what he can. He's made his disappoval of the lese majeste laws clear and he's promptly pardoned everybody who's been convicted under them. He doesn't have the personal power to arbitrarily repeal legislation (or to impose legislation either). All he can do is to make his dislike for the legislation clear and pressure people to revoke the laws. Unfortunately, the people who would follow his advice unhesitatingly don;t have the power to do so either and the people who do have the power find that legislation too useful to part with.
This dude's personal title includes like, what, four or five repetitions of the word great and at least one reference to being an avatar of Vishnu? No one deserves that sort of respect and only tyrants demand it.
You do talk some utter nonsense don't you. Try reading the formal titles of monarchs dating from the Middle Ages. Thai is a flamboyant language, the correct name for Bangkok is Krung-dēvamahānagara amararatanakosindra mahindrayudhyā mahātilakabhava navaratanarājadhānī purīramya utamarājanivēsana mahāsthāna amaravimāna avatārasthitya shakrasdattiya vishnukarmaprasiddhi. It translates to "The city of angels, the great city, the eternal jewel city, the impregnable city of God Indra, the grand capital of the world endowed with nine precious gems, the happy city, abounding in an enormous Royal Palace that resembles the heavenly abode where reigns the reincarnated god, a city given by Indra and built by Vishnukam". Most Thai children are taught the name although few people can actually translate it word-for-word. The city is still called Krungthep by everybody except foreigners.

All Royal titles are a bit flamboyant and equally meaningless. And, as I've also pointed out, King Bhumibol does deserve the respect he receives, he's worked extremely hard for his people for sixty plus years - right from his accession to the present day. He got the respect he enjoys because he deserves it and won it. His predecessors didn't have the same love and respect because they didn't earn it. If you'd ever been to Thailand you'd know that Thais do not respect people just because their position demands it. Respect has to be earned which is, by the way, why the Army is respected and the police are not.
As I said before, the line "Oh, I'M personally against it, but it's what the people want!" was an old line when it was said in latin, let alone now. What action has he taken against these things?
You really should read what other people say instead of simply ranting. He's doing what he can under the situation. He speaks out against the laws and pardons everybody convicted under them. He can't arbitrarily repeal said laws or pass new ones. Only the Thai Parliament or its military substitute can do that. So he neutralizes the law by automatically pardoning everybody convicted under it - something everybody in Thailand is very well ware of.
That Australian guy didn't do ANYTHING against his person and he's facing a bigger sentence than I would if I randomly decided to bash someone over the head with a chemistry textbook.
And he'll be pardoned very, very shortly. Just like everybody else convicted under those laws. Personally, I'd give you more than three years for bashing somebody over the head with anything.
What honorable, good man tolerates that law existing at all?
What do you suggest the King does? Stage a coup, revert to an absolute Monarchy and then repeal them? You're not making any sense at all. On one hand you are criticizing him for being an absolute monarch (which he is not) and then you criticize him for not acting like a absolute monarch. Make up your mind.
Other countries have laws against defaming the sitting monarch too, but few bother to enforce them, particularly not with significant jail time. Hell, England has one and I'm sitting within three feet of an album by a group of fine British lads collectively known as the Sex Pistols, which contains a fun little song called "God Save the Queen", which directly references Queen Elizabeth II. The Sex Pistols went to prison for an extended period of time and were fined a hefty penalty... oh, wait.. they didn't, the BBC merely wouldn't play it and the controversy pushed it to #1 on the UK Charts.
So what? Complete red herring. You're obviously noty bothering to pay any attention to anything anybody says but I'll try again. If the King had his choice, those laws would be gone tomorrow. He doesn't have that option. They're being enforced by other people for their own ends. At a guess I'd say the Australian guy really annoyed somebody in the Police (possibly by running out on a debt, that would explain why he was picked up at the airport) and the lese majeste charge was one that could be thrown at him.
Of course, King Bhumibol's people would have had an equivalent Thai band thrown in the slam forever for exercising free speech. That's not the mark of good leader, it's repugnant.
Actually, its your own refusal to listen to anybody that is repugnant. It's obvious that you are too busing raving to actually find out what the situation is. In the case that you postulate, it would be damed hard to find a band who would criticize the King. As I have said, the man is loved and quite rightly so. A band that did try an abusive recording would probably be lynched by the local population unless the police got to them first and put them into protective custody. Then, once they'd been tried and convicted, the King would pardon them just as he''s pardoned everybody else.

Now do you understand the situation?
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

Post by thejester »

In the previous case it took about a month for the Swiss chappy to be pardoned and then deported. BBC also had this tidbit from the man himself:
"I am not afraid if the criticism concerns what I do wrong, because then I know," he said. "If you say the king cannot be criticised, it means that the king is not human."
It seems he's almost in the perverse position of external actors propping up this worship of him (as a final backstop against the instability in day to day politics) even as he tries to reduce it.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

Post by Jalinth »

mr friendly guy wrote: I am confused about how much role the King actually plays, but I always thought he was mainly just a really really glorified figure head which everyone is supposed to ask for advice only when the shit hits the fan, otherwise the countries elected officials continue governing.

In which case it seems pointless accusing him of abusing power he doesn't seem to have. I do note that in some circumstances he apparently can pardon someone, but without knowing what its hard to really accuse him to abusing power.
Here is a link to an economist article http://www.economist.com/opinion/displa ... d=12724832 and http://www.economist.com/world/asia/dis ... d=12724800 that is pretty descriptive. They do go into the type of respect Stuart echoes, and how it is helped by a ultra-skewed and biased media. They also go into how the king's perceived favourites are given very light treatment - no investigation, slow court cases, etc... - while perceived outsiders (Thaksin) have cases rushed through the courts, have almost farcial case against them (a PM losing their post because of an honorarium from a cooking show?). The fact that the army is equally as biased is worrying. Politically strong armies and genuine democracies are not a historically successful combination. The Economist isn't saying he is a monster ("Bhumibol’s tale, even if stripped of the mythology his courtiers have spent decades constructing around him, is exceptional") but is saying that the king isn't the fairy tale leader that has been built up around him.

If you read both articles, they do provide a pretty interesting background. They are written with the normal Economist style (British and somewhat conservative but not in worshipful sense)
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

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Jalinth wrote:perceived outsiders (Thaksin) have cases rushed through the courts, have almost farcial case against them (a PM losing their post because of an honorarium from a cooking show?). The fact that the army is equally as biased is worrying. Politically strong armies and genuine democracies are not a historically successful combination.
Thaksin wasn't an outsider; the Shinawatra family is very well-established and one of the oligarchy that control the country. If you've bought Thai Silk, there's a very good chance it came from his family. Also, the difference between military and civilian is grossly misunderstood. I've heard people talking about civilian control of the military (or vice versa) in Thailand without people realizing its meaningless. Civilian and military are two faces of the same thing. What is critical in Thailand is the extended family and the power it brings. Military, political and civilian are just different faces of the same thing.

The PM didn't just lose his position because of an honorarium from a cooking show, he lost it because he accepted money from an outside source which is forbidden. Prime Ministers may not accept money other than their official salary. Do you think prime ministers should be above the law?
The Economist isn't saying he is a monster ("Bhumibol’s tale, even if stripped of the mythology his courtiers have spent decades constructing around him, is exceptional") but is saying that the king isn't the fairy tale leader that has been built up around him.
I'd disagree with the Economist there. I've lived in Thailand for long periods and I'd say the "mythology" is very close to reality. King Bhumibol really is a great man in the most elevated sense of the phrase. For sixty years he's been there when he was needed. As I said, he earned the respect he carries/
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

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thejester wrote:It seems he's almost in the perverse position of external actors propping up this worship of him (as a final backstop against the instability in day to day politics) even as he tries to reduce it.
That's a very shrewd summary of the situation
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stuart wrote:All Royal titles are a bit flamboyant and equally meaningless. And, as I've also pointed out, King Bhumibol does deserve the respect he receives, he's worked extremely hard for his people for sixty plus years - right from his accession to the present day. He got the respect he enjoys because he deserves it and won it. His predecessors didn't have the same love and respect because they didn't earn it.
Stuart, do you know what really happened to the King's brother? Very little news came out of that and I can't seem to find any news of that from the standard sources. Beyond the fact he was found with a bullet in head and no public investigation was done (or it was buried).
If you'd ever been to Thailand you'd know that Thais do not respect people just because their position demands it. Respect has to be earned which is, by the way, why the Army is respected and the police are not.
From what I'm told by people with first hand experience, the police is waist deep in corruption, to the point that one has to bribe several police branches just to get things done.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Stuart, do you know what really happened to the King's brother? Very little news came out of that and I can't seem to find any news of that from the standard sources. Beyond the fact he was found with a bullet in head and no public investigation was done (or it was buried).
King Ananda? No, and I don't think anybody ever will know exactly what happened. There's a lot of theories but all of them are full of holes
From what I'm told by people with first hand experience, the police is waist deep in corruption, to the point that one has to bribe several police branches just to get things done.
Depends on the area and the police. Normally though, neck-deep ould be closer than waist deep. The Army openly tell people (especially tourists) to come to them, not the police if they are in trouble. On the other hand, I've known some pretty good, honest cops in Thailand but they are the minority.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

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Stuart, could you answer a question. A comment was made by a previous poster about Thailand deciding to side with Japan in WW2. If I remember correctly this decision was only made because while the Thai army was quite powerful its airforce was no match what so ever for the Japanese. Which means that if Japan attacked Thailand, Bangkok would have been completely decimated by the Japanese airpower.

Am I remembering correctly?
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

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Bilbo wrote:Stuart, could you answer a question. A comment was made by a previous poster about Thailand deciding to side with Japan in WW2. If I remember correctly this decision was only made because while the Thai army was quite powerful its airforce was no match what so ever for the Japanese. Which means that if Japan attacked Thailand, Bangkok would have been completely decimated by the Japanese airpower.

Am I remembering correctly?
The Japanese have no significant strategic bomber forces at that time. So no, it won't happen.

What did happen was the Thai military was adept enough to repel both Allies and Japanese landing forces at the beaches..

But Stuart can probably fill in the other details that I miss out.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The Japanese have no significant strategic bomber forces at that time. So no, it won't happen.
You don't need strategic bombers to hit over relatively short distances against wooden cities.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

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phongn wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The Japanese have no significant strategic bomber forces at that time. So no, it won't happen.
You don't need strategic bombers to hit over relatively short distances against wooden cities.
True. But the Japanese had no carriers in the area right? Not to mention, Thailand is pretty far from Formosa for resupply (if they can even resupply there) or Japan itself?
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

Post by AniThyng »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
phongn wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The Japanese have no significant strategic bomber forces at that time. So no, it won't happen.
You don't need strategic bombers to hit over relatively short distances against wooden cities.
True. But the Japanese had no carriers in the area right? Not to mention, Thailand is pretty far from Formosa for resupply (if they can even resupply there) or Japan itself?
The bombers that sank Force Z were operating out of Saigon, so they could certainly hit Thailand. And considering the japanese were conduction air operations against Ceylon soon after, it's not like they couldn't get carriers there quickly.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

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Bilbo wrote:Stuart, could you answer a question. A comment was made by a previous poster about Thailand deciding to side with Japan in WW2. If I remember correctly this decision was only made because while the Thai army was quite powerful its airforce was no match what so ever for the Japanese. Which means that if Japan attacked Thailand, Bangkok would have been completely decimated by the Japanese airpower. Am I remembering correctly?
That's correct. The Thais actually resisted quite strongly in the early hours of the Japanese invasion at Prachuap Khiri Khan and a few other places. By the way, we've been castigating the Thai police but its worth noting that at Prachuap Khiri Khan, Air Force base defense troops and one company from a battalion of police held off the Japanese for almost 30 hours, pinning them on the beach and killing more than 200 Japanese troops, sinking four landing craft and generally making themselves very unpleasant. Thai casualties were 36 male and 2 female soldiers killed (there's an article on Prachuiap Khiri Khan in Wkipedia but it only covers the fighting at the airfield). The defenders held on until they were ordered to cease fighting. Anyway, taking place at the same time was an engagement on the Malaysia/Thai border. British strategy in the case of a Japanese invasion through Thailand was to send forces north into Thailand to fight the Japanese around Songkhla. The vanguard of the British forces actually crossed the border but was engaged and repulsed by a company from the same police battalion as was fighting at Prachuap Khiri Khan. The British vanguard was pushed back and the British decided to abandon their move north. This makes the Thai Border Police the only force in WW2 to defeat both the axis and the allies on the same day.

Anyway, the initial Japanese landings in Thailand were a very mixed success. Some did pretty well, others were a disaster. Opposition to the Japanese ranged from regular army units through border police to local police and armed civilians. The level of resistance was rough enough to seriously worry teh Japanese (their nightmare was that the Army would hold on long enough to allow the ports in Southern Thailand to be destroyed - which was precisely what the Thais intended. They therefore issued an ultimatum, either the Thais would cease fire or the Japanese would burn Bangkok and every other Thai city to the ground. Although the Thais had a neat air force (it had slapped the French stupid earlier in 1941 and their close support tactics were far in advance of everybody - the Thais invented cab-ranking aircraft and the use of forward air controllers calling in aircraft by radio - it was small and primarily orientated to supporting the army. They had 12 front-line fighters in service. So, they had no means of defending against the Japanese and the wooden Thai cities were horribly vulnerable to fire. So, the Thais folded. Their armed forces then set up as a resistance movement (another unique thing, the Free Thai Movement is the only example of a resistance movement in an occupied country where the resistance was run by the government). Again, we've been slamming the Thai police but it was the police who ran the escape route for allied prisoners, mostly shot down aviators but also some escapees from the Burma railway, out of the country.
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: The Japanese have no significant strategic bomber forces at that time. So no, it won't happen. But the Japanese had no carriers in the area right? Not to mention, Thailand is pretty far from Formosa for resupply (if they can even resupply there) or Japan itself?
Actually, they did, both the Navy and Army Air Forces had heavy bombers (by 1941 standards) and had been carrying out strategic air attacks against Chinese cities for four years. So the threat was very real and very credible. Their bombers were based around Hanoi and Saigon in French Indo-China so it was no great haul from the base complexes to Thai cities. The Japanese didn't need carriers, they had more than enough long-range bombers (Ki-21s, G3Ms and G4Ms) to carry out the operations in Indo-China.
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Re: Writer jailed for alleged Thai monarchy insult

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stuart wrote:Actually, they did, both the Navy and Army Air Forces had heavy bombers (by 1941 standards) and had been carrying out strategic air attacks against Chinese cities for four years. So the threat was very real and very credible. Their bombers were based around Hanoi and Saigon in French Indo-China so it was no great haul from the base complexes to Thai cities. The Japanese didn't need carriers, they had more than enough long-range bombers (Ki-21s, G3Ms and G4Ms) to carry out the operations in Indo-China.
I stand corrected then. I kept thinking of B-29s dropping off incendiaries for some odd reason.

With regards to the police, I find it odd. Weren't the Military quite gunho about invading the surrounding areas? They were the main power in Thailand back then, with the King even shoved aside?
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