Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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Admiral Valdemar
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Broomstick wrote: You'd be surprised how many "hicks" do value the internet. Satellite connections make it possible even in remote areas (although satellite internet does have some limitations). Farmers have used it for weather information, information on commodities prices (they produce the commodities, after all), and ordering things both for farming and for the household (think of the Sears catalog on-line). Homeschoolers use it to supplement their children's educations. There's keeping in touch with people via e-mail. But I assume the demographic is not hanging out on SD.net. (an e-mail aviation group I used to be part of was, in fact, about 20% farmers out in the middle of nowhere, and that was in the late 1990's)

And there is a tremendous market for porn in the middle of nowhere, there always has been. Used to be mail order, but now more on-line. Or at least ordered on-line.
Eh, guys I'm thinking about are the kind that would see any access to the outside world in that way as being a threat to their children's' upbringing. Remote communities can still try and get in the act now, though, with better advances in long range wireless making such hurdles as laying klicks worth of cable less a concern. That doesn't change that it will still cost you a pretty penny by simple economies of scale kicking in, but then that's the price you pay for being remote which can apply to other facilities.
Broomstick wrote: >sigh< I sometimes think I'd make a better Canadian than American, although my flag-flying tendencies would probably bother the neighbors if I move up north.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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Broomstick wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I do agree with you about making the coupon program only apply to the needy, but you live in America, and such a program smacks of socialism so it would be difficult to pass. Because socialism = the end of all freedom, as Joe the Plumber explained to us.
>sigh< I sometimes think I'd make a better Canadian than American, although my flag-flying tendencies would probably bother the neighbors if I move up north.
There are flag-wavers here too. We have all the same cultural groups that you do down there, it's just that they're in slightly different proportions. To take one recent example, slightly more than half of Canadians think gay marriage should be legal. Slightly less than half of Californians think gay marriage should be legal. A small difference with a big outcome. The same is true of issues like universal health care. There are people here in Canada who completely buy into the American conservative belief about how socialism is pure evil incarnate, but they're not the majority here. They are the majority in America.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Digital TV is great, I threw out my TV because of it.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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His Divine Shadow wrote:Digital TV is great, I threw out my TV because of it.
Do you have anything to say which actually relates to the discussion? Go spam somewhere else.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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Edi wrote:If I read that right, it's essentially the same thing my employer offered here, 24 Mbps ADSL2+ that was purely switched digital video. It was a disaster. The backbone can handle it all right, but the last mile even where we own the network is often 3-8 km from DSLAM to end user, so the it really worked only if the distance was roughly a mile or less. Our demographics also don't support that sort of technology due to the cost involved in the infra and the icing on the cake was that it was actually competing with the DVB-T and DVB-C digital TV that was implemented here in early 2007. So it was a losing proposition on all counts.
As I noted, AT&T resolved that by putting the DSLAM in the neighborhood. They're also doing direct fibre to the home now, so bandwidth isn't a problem.
That does sound like a maintenance nightmare and that it would involve too many different pieces of equipment on the customer end. Other than that, I have nothing to comment on it due to unfamiliarity.
It's not, really. At the customer's premises, Verizon puts in a fibre terminal, which then has standard RF, Ethernet and RJ11 jacks on it. The RF and Ethernet ports feed into the router, and then televisions are served by standard cable lines, and computers via said router. The router is also responsible for injecting PPV/VOD content onto the cable lines from the data side of things. It's pretty much only one more piece of equipment (well, aside from the set-top-boxes or CableCards for the televisions,).
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Isn't TV through the net, even SDTV, something of a pipedream (no pun intended) now anyway? What with the likes of YouTube and iPlayer killing ISPs, you'd think everyone moving to getting their TV and interactive online stuff via a cable would strain servers, or at least, make the exchanges in many areas far more overburdened.
SDV/IPTV is only being rolled out in places with the infrastructure to handle it (ADSL2, FTTP, DOCSIS 2+ cable). And there's no particular reason why the backend need be more greatly strained.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Somehow I'm doubting the hicks in the middle of nowhere would have a need for broadband anyhoo. Or one of dem there newfangled computing machines. The liberal, smart people live in the cities, because that's where the hot and cold running porn online comes from.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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^When it comes to porn, I think everybody is an enthusiast for the fastest possible connection.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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phongn wrote: SDV/IPTV is only being rolled out in places with the infrastructure to handle it (ADSL2, FTTP, DOCSIS 2+ cable). And there's no particular reason why the backend need be more greatly strained.
The ISPs over here certainly think there's a cause for concern. Ten percent of the traffic now is down to iPlayer, which is up practically a hundred percent over a year ago. And it keeps growing. The ISPs aren't happy to fork out to deal with this, and neither is the BBC or any other service that allows video, especially at a decent resolution.
:roll:
Oh c'mon, it was a comment in jest.

Obviously porn can't run hot or cold. That'd be weird.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

Post by phongn »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:The ISPs over here certainly think there's a cause for concern. Ten percent of the traffic now is down to iPlayer, which is up practically a hundred percent over a year ago. And it keeps growing. The ISPs aren't happy to fork out to deal with this, and neither is the BBC or any other service that allows video, especially at a decent resolution.
IPTV/SDV generally takes advantage of much more sophisticated architectures like multicasting. For example, if ten people on a DSLAM are watching the same channel at once, only one stream has to be sent to the DSLAM, which then copies the packets to each of the destination. You can't multicast video-on-demand like iPlayer or YouTube or whatnot.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

Post by Junghalli »

This reminds me, when I tried to apply for the coupon for the converter they turned down my request because I live in an apartment building and apparently an address in an apartment building isn't eligible.

:banghead:
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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That can't be right - I live in an apartment building and I got two coupons. Are you sure it wasn't something else?
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

Post by Junghalli »

Broomstick wrote:That can't be right - I live in an apartment building and I got two coupons. Are you sure it wasn't something else?
That's the line they've been feeding me. Maybe it varies from state to state.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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Junghalli wrote:
Broomstick wrote:That can't be right - I live in an apartment building and I got two coupons. Are you sure it wasn't something else?
That's the line they've been feeding me. Maybe it varies from state to state.
It shouldn't - it's a Federal program.

Is your building wired for cable? Did someone else apply for a coupon using your address? I dunno, I got nuthin....
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

Post by Junghalli »

Broomstick wrote:Is your building wired for cable?
I believe there is an outlet behind my dresser somewhere.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

Post by Sam Or I »

We are so far along with the process we should not stop now. I was personally effected by it, I was layed off of a local TV station because they needed to buy the equipment, and were already on a shoe string. (They went bankrupt soon after, with both the Digital Conversion and the Down turn economy, the station could not keep in business.)

Since the damage is already done to most TV stations, there is no reason to delay.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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WASHINGTON - Bucking the Obama administration, House Republicans on Wednesday defeated a bill to postpone the upcoming transition from analog to digital television broadcasting to June 12 — leaving roughly 6.5 million U.S. households unprepared for the switchover.

The 258-168 vote failed to clear the two-thirds threshold needed for passage in a victory for GOP members, who warn that postponing the transition from the current Feb. 17 deadline would confuse consumers.

House Republicans say a delay also would burden wireless companies and public safety agencies waiting for the spectrum that will be vacated by the switchover, and create added costs for television stations that would have to continue broadcasting both analog and digital signals for four more months.

The defeat is a setback for President Barack Obama and Democrats on Capitol Hill, who maintain that the Bush administration bungled efforts to ensure that all consumers — particularly poor, rural and low-income Americans — will be ready for next month's analog shut-off.

The Nielsen Co. estimates more than 6.5 million U.S. households that rely on analog television sets to pick up over-the-air broadcast signals still are not prepared for the transition. People who subscribe to cable or satellite TV or have a newer TV with a digital tuner will not be affected.

Still, Jonathan Collegio, vice president for the digital television transition at the National Association of Broadcasters, argues the Nielsen estimate may overstate the number of viewers who are not ready. He noted that the numbers exclude consumers who have already purchased a converter box but not yet installed it, as well as those who have requested coupons but not yet received them.

What's more, consumers who subscribe to cable or satellite TV service or who own a TV with a digital tuner will not lose reception.

But Joe Barton of Texas, the top Republican on the House Commerce Committee, insisted a postponement is not necessary.

"We could do nothing worse than to delay this transition date," Barton said. "The bill is a solution looking for a problem that exists mostly in the mind of the Obama administration."

Barton led the push to scuttle the bill, which passed the Senate unanimously on Monday night after lawmakers in that chamber struck a bipartisan compromise. Senate Democrats won over Republican support by allowing broadcast stations to make the switch from analog to digital signals sooner than the June deadline if they choose and permitting public safety agencies to take over vacant spectrum promised to them as soon as it becomes available.

But those concessions did not placate most Republicans in the House. Only 22 House Republicans voted for the bill, while 155 voted against it. Among House Democrats, 236 voted for the bill and just 13 voted against it.

The Obama administration called for the transition date to be postponed after the Commerce Department earlier this month hit a $1.34 billion funding limit for coupons to subsidize digital TV converter boxes for consumers. The coupon program allows consumers to request up to two $40 vouchers per household to help pay for the boxes, which translate digital signals back into analog ones for older TVs. The boxes generally cost between $40 and $80 each and can be purchased without a coupon.

Senate Commerce Committee Chairman John D. Rockefeller, D-W.Va., author of the bill, said he was disappointed by the outcome of the House vote.

"The outgoing Bush administration grossly mismanaged the digital television transition and consumers are confused, households are not prepared, and the coupon program for converter boxes is broken," Rockefeller said in a statement.

The Obama administration had no immediate comment on the House vote.

The next step remains unclear. Gene Kimmelman, vice president for federal policy at the Consumers Union, which has been lobbying for a delay, said he hopes House Democrats will bring the bill up again for a regular floor vote, which would only require majority support to pass. Wednesday's vote took place under a special procedure that required two-thirds support for passage.

Congress in 2005 required broadcasters to switch from analog to digital signals, which are more efficient, to free up valuable chunks of wireless spectrum to be used for commercial services and interoperable emergency-response networks.

The National Telecommunications and Information Administration, the arm of the Commerce Department administering the program, is now sending out new coupons only as older, unredeemed ones reach a 90-day expiration date and free up more money. The NTIA had nearly 2.6 million coupon requests on a waiting list last week and those people will not receive their coupons before Feb. 17.

Barton, for one, is pushing legislation to fix the coupon program without delaying next month's transition.

The National Association of Broadcasters, which threw its support behind Rockefeller's bill this week, declined to comment on Wednesday's vote.

Among the big broadcast networks, The Walt Disney Co.'s ABC said it supports a delay, while CBS Corp. said it is "open to any plan that makes the digital transition easier for our viewers." News Corp.'s Fox Network had no comment Wednesday, although it has previously said it "supports any efforts to ensure that the transition to digital television is a success."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28896344/
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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Kanastrous wrote:The 258-168 vote failed to clear the two-thirds threshold needed for passage in a victory for GOP members, who warn that postponing the transition from the current Feb. 17 deadline would confuse consumers.
"Confuse consumers"? That sounds just a bit condescending to me. However, it's untrue. It is not a hypothetical, many consumers ARE confused. Already.
House Republicans say a delay also would burden wireless companies and public safety agencies waiting for the spectrum that will be vacated by the switchover, and create added costs for television stations that would have to continue broadcasting both analog and digital signals for four more months.
This is a much more valid reason for not delaying the transition.
The defeat is a setback for President Barack Obama and Democrats on Capitol Hill, who maintain that the Bush administration bungled efforts to ensure that all consumers — particularly poor, rural and low-income Americans — will be ready for next month's analog shut-off.
Not surprising, is it? When did the Bush crowd ever give a dam about the poor?
"The outgoing Bush administration grossly mismanaged the digital television transition and consumers are confused, households are not prepared, and the coupon program for converter boxes is broken," Rockefeller said in a statement.
Of this, the government can really only affect the coupon program. If that program is "broke" then fix it.
Barton, for one, is pushing legislation to fix the coupon program without delaying next month's transition.
I'm cool with that.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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Broomstick wrote: "Confuse consumers"? That sounds just a bit condescending to me. However, it's untrue. It is not a hypothetical, many consumers ARE confused. Already.
It's not condescending, if it's true.

Anyway, how confusing can it be? On this date, transmission standards switch. To keep your old set working, you need a converter box. Here's what one is, here's what one costs. If you have trouble with footing the bill, here's where to write/call/post for a coupon or two to defray the cost.

Perhaps there's more to the process, that I've missed. But if that's a fair outline, I think a high standard of excuse is in order, to justify being 'confused.'
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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Maybe the saturation of public announcements about the upcoming switch varies from city to city and region to region, but here in suburbs of Philadelphia, I have seen commercials and ads nearly every day. Some of the ads seem to be from the cable company, many are from the local stations. There are newspaper ads, ads on the radio. Some of the local TV stations have set up toll-free numbers and websites for people to use if they have questions. It's everywhere around here and the amount of airtime devoted to it seems to be increasing as we get closer to the date.

So I have a question for the board members. How has your locality done with the switchover announcement?
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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Hear about it daily, on AM and FM radio in the Los Angeles market.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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I haven't heard shit here in Canada, and I thought we were doing it at the same time as you guys?
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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Phantasee wrote:I haven't heard shit here in Canada, and I thought we were doing it at the same time as you guys?
A ten second Google search shows that Canadians aren't doing the switch until 2011.

As far as hearing about it myself, I almost never watch TV so I didn't even know about it til I saw a thread here.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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Kanastrous wrote:Anyway, how confusing can it be? On this date, transmission standards switch. To keep your old set working, you need a converter box. Here's what one is, here's what one costs. If you have trouble with footing the bill, here's where to write/call/post for a coupon or two to defray the cost.

Perhaps there's more to the process, that I've missed. But if that's a fair outline, I think a high standard of excuse is in order, to justify being 'confused.'
What's confusing is not the government sponsored stuff, or even the broadcast TV stuff (mostly) - however, I have seen ads by cable companies in this area that skirt the edge of legality that heavily imply that if you don't buy cable you won't have TV anymore. I've also seen misleading ads that don't quite lie for stores that sell new TVs. There are a certain number of unscrupulous folks out there very eager to convince people that they MUST spend $$$$$$$ in order to get TV after the transition. People not smart enough or informed enough will get get the true message, which, you are correct, is pretty simple.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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I, too, get Philadelphia TV, so I've gotten most of the same material as FSTargetDrone. The media is fairly well saturated with information, and I haven't seen any of the misleading ads that Broomstick mentioned. Even though this switch doesn't affect me in the slightest, I'm still very much aware of what needs to be done to avoid it. Even certain Wikipedia articles, like the one for Super Bowl XLIII, mention the transition. Given the standard carried by Philadelphia media, I was surprised to learn people were still unaware of the transition.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

Post by Kanastrous »

Broomstick wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:Anyway, how confusing can it be? On this date, transmission standards switch. To keep your old set working, you need a converter box. Here's what one is, here's what one costs. If you have trouble with footing the bill, here's where to write/call/post for a coupon or two to defray the cost.

Perhaps there's more to the process, that I've missed. But if that's a fair outline, I think a high standard of excuse is in order, to justify being 'confused.'
What's confusing is not the government sponsored stuff, or even the broadcast TV stuff (mostly) - however, I have seen ads by cable companies in this area that skirt the edge of legality that heavily imply that if you don't buy cable you won't have TV anymore. I've also seen misleading ads that don't quite lie for stores that sell new TVs. There are a certain number of unscrupulous folks out there very eager to convince people that they MUST spend $$$$$$$ in order to get TV after the transition. People not smart enough or informed enough will get get the true message, which, you are correct, is pretty simple.
You know, being not-smart-enough and not-informed-enough carry natural penalties. If the people getting left behind are there because they basically couldn't bother to track something that apparently simple, I don't think it appropriate to delay the process, in order to accommodate them.

I appreciate that you regard television as being of significantly greater value, than I do - which is a little bit ironic - but the harm apparent to me in the change proceeding on schedule just doesn't look great enough, to justify delaying it.

If there's an argument in favor of the delay that I've missed, I'll read it.
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Re: Why we shouldn't delay the digital TV transition

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Kanastrous wrote:You know, being not-smart-enough and not-informed-enough carry natural penalties. If the people getting left behind are there because they basically couldn't bother to track something that apparently simple, I don't think it appropriate to delay the process, in order to accommodate them.
On the other hand, being bombarded with bad information will make it much more difficult for even highly intelligent people to make good decisions. Personally, I think there should be some punishments handed out to the perpetrators of some of the deceptive ads I've seen, they really are that bad. If other areas have escaped this so much the better.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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