Culture-Themed Charter Schools

[Darth Wong]

If all American schools were required to do this, I could see the problem. But of all American school kids, only a handful will go to these schools; those children are likely in culturally diverse areas to begin with.

Right, so only the people who want to isolate their kids from the surrounding diverse culture will put them in these mono-culture schools. How the fuck does that affect the argument I'm making?

[apocolypse]

Bear in mind it's not a "Korean supremacy school" or "Korean racial segregation school" like you're projecting onto the above example of the Hebrew school, but an ordinary school with a program oriented towards Korea. The door is open to anyone who wants to come and learn about Korea, and no one is turned away; race, culture, etc is not an issue.

It most certainly is not an "ordinary school" as you're stating. If it was, then it wouldn't be "Culture-themed" one. You seem to be missing the point still.

[Coyote]

If all American schools were required to do this, I could see the problem. But of all American school kids, only a handful will go to these schools; those children are likely in culturally diverse areas to begin with.

I see the result of this is that small pockets of children will grow up to be very well-immersed in comprehending at least one culture outside America. It will make them, perhaps, overly-specialized in that target culture, which may be a drawback.

But that's not what is going to happen. Kids are going to be sent to these schools so they don't have mix with other cultures. The district in question is three quarters black, Hispanic, and Asian. Does anyone believe for a second that the overwhelming majority of kids in this Hebrew schools won't be Jew?

And in that community that was three-quarters non-Jewish, there was:

One dissenting vote
The state Board of Regents approved the Hebrew charter school on Jan. 13 with one dissenting vote.

"Any opportunity for your child to learn a second language, whether it's Hebrew or any other language, is beneficial," said Maureen Gonzalez-Campbell, the principal, who is African-American and speaks no Hebrew herself.

Gonzalez-Campbell, 48, said parents will be attracted to the charter school's low student-teacher ratio — there will be one English-speaking teacher and one Hebrew-speaking teacher in each classroom — and academic rigor.

A lot of people will be Jews that enroll, sure. And if they closed the door to anyone else, Zuul's criticisms would be spot-on. But it appears that the local community finds the prospect favorable. I can only assume they'd have the same interest if it were a Russian-Culture school, or a Turkish, Greek, Chinese, etc school.

Bear in mind the Ben Gamla school--

Not the first
The Brooklyn Hebrew school will not be the nation's first Hebrew charter school. The Ben Gamla Hebrew Charter School in Hollywood, Fla., prompted fierce debates when it opened in 2007. It serves kosher meals and its director is a rabbi, but an expert hired by the district deemed Ben Gamla's lesson plans "entirely appropriate for a publicly funded charter school."

The Brooklyn school satisfied the New York state regents that it will not violate the U.S. Constitution, but critics haven't been silenced.

The school is not a "Hebrew uber alles" curriculum. The criticism comes from the "acculturation" mindset, as mentioned:

Diane Ravitch, a professor of education at New York University and a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, said in an op-ed piece in New York's Daily News that she objected to the Hebrew school for the same reasons she objected to the Khalil Gibran school, because a public school should not be "centered on the teaching of a single non-American culture."

"We don't send children to public schools to learn to be Chinese or Russian or Greek or Korean," Ravitch said. "We send them to learn to be American."

If the schools were teaching the superiority of the other culture, or some other nationalist type philosophy, I can understand the concern. But that doesn't seem to be the point with schools such as the Ben Gamla school. Americans are famously ignorant of other cultures, and teaching about them in-depth does not, I think, lead to automatic Balkanization. Especially if, as with the school mentioned in the article, Blacks, Hispanics, and other ethnic groups in the area appear to support the idea.

What I am seeing here is an opportunity for kids to not just learn a few things about other cultures beyond some dry reading in a textbook with a test on Friday. What I am seeing is an opportunity for kids to really, truly learn and know other cultures outside their own-- while getting a regular education in the process (and not an "indoctrination").

[Coyote]

It most certainly is not an "ordinary school" as you're stating. If it was, then it wouldn't be "Culture-themed" one. You seem to be missing the point still.

By "ordinary school" I mean that regular education guides the curriculum, as opposed to a "religious" education or one that promotes "X-nationality uber alles".

[Coyote]

If all American schools were required to do this, I could see the problem. But of all American school kids, only a handful will go to these schools; those children are likely in culturally diverse areas to begin with.

Right, so only the people who want to isolate their kids from the surrounding diverse culture will put them in these mono-culture schools. How the fuck does that affect the argument I'm making?

In the example provided, an African-American woman (with a Hispanic last name) who spoke no Hebrew thought it'd be a great opportunity for local kids to learn about another culture. There didn't seem to be a sense of "not belonging/being welcome".

I suspect that all different sorts would be interested in cultural education beyond immediate immigrants. A person who has Greek heritage, but is a 4th or 5th generation American and knows nothing of their heritage, would be interesting in a "Greek school" for example. It won't make them into anti-American zealots or converts to Greek Orthodox Churches.

Going to a school like this won't make the kids completely isolated. The school in the article will have two teachers per classroom, one for the target language, and one for English. At the end of the school day, the kids go back out into the world, which will be America. They'll probably stop off at McDonalds and go to the mall and watch a movie that night. They won't be put in a bubble and forced to live as a Russian or Greek or Korean, or whatever. They'll still be Americans in all things, but they'll also know a lot about another culture.

[apocolypse]

It most certainly is not an "ordinary school" as you're stating. If it was, then it wouldn't be "Culture-themed" one. You seem to be missing the point still.

By "ordinary school" I mean that regular education guides the curriculum, as opposed to a "religious" education or one that promotes "X-nationality uber alles".

Ah, got you. I would still oppose it though, at least a publicly funded one. I understand the point about cultural imersion and whatnot, and think it is an admirable goal. But I think more would be accomplished with public schools having more outreach. After all, if you're immersing yourself in one culture, then you're still not that "multi-cultural". However, you're better off than some.

[Imperial Overlord]

That the Board of Regents agrees doesn't make it a good idea. That's appeal to authority and citing that the locals don't have a problem with it is appeal to popularity. It's not even a sign that they aren't prejudiced against Jews. It can't close its doors against students of other backgrounds and expect to get public money, so that its technically open to others isn't a defence either. Its clearly a Jewish school for Jewish students and a minority of non Jews that get sent there. It's not a school dedicated to learning about other cultures. That would be the case if it was say an English and Hebrew school which invests a large part of its curriculum in exploring say African cultures. Its a school for Jews and about Jewish culture in an environment that will be overwhelmingly Jewish. They will be isolated from the cultures of 75% of the people around and have their own culture and values reinforced. This is just monoculturalism packaged in such a way that it is compliant with existing laws.

[Coyote]

That the Board of Regents agrees doesn't make it a good idea. That's appeal to authority and citing that the locals don't have a problem with it is appeal to popularity. It's not even a sign that they aren't prejudiced against Jews. It can't close its doors against students of other backgrounds and expect to get public money, so that its technically open to others isn't a defence either. Its clearly a Jewish school for Jewish students and a minority of non Jews that get sent there. It's not a school dedicated to learning about other cultures. That would be the case if it was say an English and Hebrew school which invests a large part of its curriculum in exploring say African cultures. Its a school for Jews and about Jewish culture in an environment that will be overwhelmingly Jewish. They will be isolated from the cultures of 75% of the people around and have their own culture and values reinforced. This is just monoculturalism packaged in such a way that it is compliant with existing laws.

If this were a school devoted to immersion study in Chinese culture, language and history (which would touch on Buddhism, Confucianism, as well as Maoist Communism), would you feel the same way?

I'm not trying to play 'gotcha' here, but a part of me wonders if the fact that this is a "Hebrew/Jewish" school is clouding objectivity here.

[General Zod]

If this were a school devoted to immersion study in Chinese culture, language and history (which would touch on Buddhism, Confucianism, as well as Maoist Communism), would you feel the same way?

I'm not trying to play 'gotcha' here, but a part of me wonders if the fact that this is a "Hebrew/Jewish" school is clouding objectivity here.

You can replace "Jew" with any ethnicity of your choosing and the point still reads the same.

[Coyote]

Well, after some thought I'm going to have to concede this because I am clearly approaching this from the point of view of a self-professed "culture vulture" type who has always been fascinated by other cultures, ways of life, languages, customs, etc. I'm looking at this as an altruistic attempt to offer cultural education, and so I admit I want to give this program the benefit of the doubt.

I suppose the more realistic (and proper) way to encourage education about other cultures would be to try to get local (regular/public) schools to offer more diverse education platforms beyond just a year or two of a language and a couple days in a Social Studies text about [random country]. A fully specialized school devoted to one culture can be too easily abused and become a "private club" type place in all but name, while remaining in technical compliance.

So I'm folding my cards. Thanks to all who participated for the insight; that's why I'm here, after all.

[Kanastrous]

I'm fascinated by other cultures, too, and try to learn about them at every opportunity.

But I don't expect public educational funds to be expended for the purpose of financing schools that promote one culture at the expense of others.

[Darth Wong]

If this were a school devoted to immersion study in Chinese culture, language and history (which would touch on Buddhism, Confucianism, as well as Maoist Communism), would you feel the same way?

There's a place for such schools: it's called China. I live in Canada, and I want to put my kids in a school that is about Canadian multi-culture, not Chinese mono-culture.

[Rye]

If this were a school devoted to immersion study in Chinese culture, language and history (which would touch on Buddhism, Confucianism, as well as Maoist Communism), would you feel the same way?

Yeah. I have no problem with such things being taught, or even schools specialising in teaching them; I do have problems with them not being taught objectively, but rather some form of social norm that the other subjects are arranged around.

I'm not trying to play 'gotcha' here, but a part of me wonders if the fact that this is a "Hebrew/Jewish" school is clouding objectivity here.

Hell, I like learning about hebrew stuff, especially the language, but I wouldn't like my kids having a divisive "cultural apparatus" foisted on them at school.

[ray245]

If this were a school devoted to immersion study in Chinese culture, language and history (which would touch on Buddhism, Confucianism, as well as Maoist Communism), would you feel the same way?

There's a place for such schools: it's called China. I live in Canada, and I want to put my kids in a school that is about Canadian multi-culture, not Chinese mono-culture.

There is no such thing as multi-culture, there is only one human culture. I mean come on, when are we going to draw the line about different culture? The culture of a single family? The culture of a single person? Every person have a different opinion of doing things.

We continued to leech and learn from each other ever since humans developed civilization. Every group of people will influence the lifestyle of other people. Europeans thinkers starts to question the bible with the very existence of China itself, modern day Chinese learned about modern day technology.

Trying to segregate children with a different culture-theme school will only cause them to believe the superiority of their 'culture' over others, and be unwillingly to accept the fact that their 'culture' isn't as perfect as they think it is.

I mean culture is never a static thing, as the custom of every group of people will continued to change again and again. Take Chinese culture for example. There is many people, both Chinese and westerners, who thinks that the Chinese custom is a static one, when its cultures keep changing all the time.

There are times where Chinese don't care about you being bisexual or sexual preferences as long as you have kids. There are times where Emperors can accept Muslims refusing to prostrate before him due to different customs. There are times where the Chinese didn't believe in Buddhist teachings, and there are times where Confucianism isn't the state philosophy.

Roman customs changed over time as well, with the Romans willingly to adopt pants as a dress code and stop wearing a toga.

Sometimes, empires can have a strong military custom, while in other times and dynasties, they have a very weak military custom. When people are taught from young to be ingrained in a certain custom, they cannot understand the fact that their traditional 'culture' is constantly evolving, that no 'culture' is more important and contribute more to human achievement as compared to other culture.

If people want to learn about the history of a certain group, let the person do it on his own choice. If you are old enough to do so, and make decision for yourself.

[General Zod]

If people want to learn about the history of a certain group, let the person do it on his own choice. If you are old enough to do so, and make decision for yourself.

Did you even bother reading the OP at all before going on that long babbling diatrabe?

[ray245]

If people want to learn about the history of a certain group, let the person do it on his own choice. If you are old enough to do so, and make decision for yourself.

Did you even bother reading the OP at all before going on that long babbling diatrabe?

Yup. I am saying that the children should not be allowed to be segregated so that their parents can feel happy about imparting their traditional values. Children are not capable of making a good judgment while learning about a 'culture' in a objective manner. That imparting those values at a young age and segregate them to a small culture is basically harming a child's ability to be interested and learn about those traditional values on his own at a older age.

[General Zod]

Yup. I am saying that the children should not be allowed to be segregated so that their parents can feel happy about imparting their traditional values. Children are not capable of making a good judgment while learning about a 'culture' in a objective manner.

Are you suggesting the state should take the decision on what school to send their child to completely out of the parents hands?

That imparting those values at a young age and segregate them to a small culture is basically harming a child's ability to be interested and learn about those traditional values on his own at a older age.

Do you even read what you're saying before you post or do you just not grasp the concept of indoctrination?

[ray245]

Are you suggesting the state should take the decision on what school to send their child to completely out of the parents hands?

I don't know.

Do you even read what you're saying before you post or do you just not grasp the concept of indoctrination?

I could have confused them I think.

God, I really need a rest recently. All that fever and workload is making me hard to think properly with all those weird arguments, goal shifting and etc. Just ignore all the arguments I tried to make recently.

[Next of Kin]

I'm fascinated by other cultures, too, and try to learn about them at every opportunity.

But I don't expect public educational funds to be expended for the purpose of financing schools that promote one culture at the expense of others.

The problem in Ontario is that the province still funds two school boards and thus, you have double the administration. Both the public and the catholic system receive funding. Of course, this is unfair to other faiths and I think the funding should go back to the public system.

[CarsonPalmer]

I'm fascinated by other cultures, too, and try to learn about them at every opportunity.

But I don't expect public educational funds to be expended for the purpose of financing schools that promote one culture at the expense of others.

The problem in Ontario is that the province still funds two school boards and thus, you have double the administration. Both the public and the catholic system receive funding. Of course, this is unfair to other faiths and I think the funding should go back to the public system.

Ontario funds the Catholic school system? Wow, that doesn't even happen in the United States (which, although I understand the reasoning behind it and support it, is in some ways unfortunate because the city Catholic schools have been dropping like flies in the last twenty years).

[Darth Wong]

There's a complicated history behind Ontario's decision to fund a separate Catholic school board. It may look ironic since the the Catholics seem to have less clout here than they do in the US (look at the way we shrug at their anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage campaigns), but it's a legacy issue rather than a cultural one. It is extraordinarily difficult to eliminate an entire government department once it exists, particularly one with extensive infrastructure and community involvement.

Personally, I actually wonder if the Catholic school board system is part of the reason that Ontario is one of the most socially liberal provinces in the country. I've speculated about this before, with respect to Britain: nothing takes the bloom off the rose of religion faster than the average taxpayer realizing that he's being forced to pay for some of this shit.