South Carolina: Celebrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

[Darth Wong]

The people that I've heard say it, none of which are in the south as I don't live there, are referring to black "culture" and attitudes that they don't like. Your "in other words" works just as well though.

Do they realize that modern "black culture" is a reaction to the continued oppression of blacks that whites continued to practice a hundred years AFTER the Civil War? I'm no fan of it either, but any Southern apologist must have a lot of gall to complain about it, when it was the South that caused the creation of this subculture.

[Wicked Pilot]

I for one disagree with the SD.net party line and say flat out we need a Confederate Memorial Day. As everyone knows, if one dares to honor Confederate soldiers on the last Monday in May the black helicopters swoop down and take them and their stars & bars away. Hell, you could be sitting on your porch, chewing tobacco, admiring all the fine car parts on your lawn and your fine ass cousin across the road, on any day of the year, and you say something nice about your great great great great paw who fought in the war, and the helicopters will come for you then too.

[Darth Wong]

I wonder if this is some bizarre case of political games; this senator supports promotion of a Traitors' Memorial, er, "Confederate Memorial" Day and some pet project he has gets support from others.

I think it’s exactly that. He’s either got a product he wants funded, or he wants to put a big favor in the bank for next year, so he’s being the flag man to propose this law. But I guess it is possible he really is just dumb enough to think that a holiday for the Confederacy will fight racism.

What I saw about it suggested it was actually a quid-pro-quo deal where recognition of the Confederacy through a formal holiday would result in Martin Luther King day being made a formal holiday in South Carolina, where it currently isn't.

If that's actually the case, then it's interesting that the article makes no mention of it.

[Wicked Pilot]

What I saw about it suggested it was actually a quid-pro-quo deal where recognition of the Confederacy through a formal holiday would result in Martin Luther King day being made a formal holiday in South Carolina, where it currently isn't.

If that's actually the case, then it's interesting that the article makes no mention of it.

Unless something has changed recently, all states and the feds observe the MLK holiday, including South Carolina.

[Broomstick]

My information is that all 50 states celebrate MLK, Jr. Day since 2000.

[Flagg]

IIRC, MLK day and Traitorous Douchebags Remembrance day are celebrated on the same day in SC.

[Elfdart]

Yeah, but you're in Texas. Half those fuckers would like to have slavery back in force today

Actually I think it is more along the lines of "If I knew it was going to be like this, I would have picked my own damn cotton." I've been hearing that for years.

In N.California?

[Havok]

The people that I've heard say it, none of which are in the south as I don't live there, are referring to black "culture" and attitudes that they don't like. Your "in other words" works just as well though.

Do they realize that modern "black culture" is a reaction to the continued oppression of blacks that whites continued to practice a hundred years AFTER the Civil War? I'm no fan of it either, but any Southern apologist must have a lot of gall to complain about it, when it was the South that caused the creation of this subculture.

I seriously doubt it. Seems like the thinking is that black people became completely responsible for everything that happened once they were freed, disregarding the 100 years you cited and the countless other social and economical disanvatages they had to start out with.
I don't have the luxury of dealing with the most intelligent people in my life. Welcome to my world. My fault though, so I can't exactly complain.

[Havok]

Yeah, but you're in Texas. Half those fuckers would like to have slavery back in force today

Actually I think it is more along the lines of "If I knew it was going to be like this, I would have picked my own damn cotton." I've been hearing that for years.

In N.California?

Yup. You would be amazed what people say when they think that you have a like minded way of thinking. People see my bike and leather and just assume that I am a racist cockbag like they are.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Apparently the guy is a bit of a loon..

©2009 Google - Map data ©2009 Tele Atlas - Terms of Use
Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC

By JIM DAVENPORT – 22 hours ago

COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) — A black state senator is pushing a bill that would require South Carolina cities and counties to give their workers a paid day off for Confederate Memorial Day or lose millions in state funds.

Democratic Sen. Robert Ford's bill won initial approval from a Senate subcommittee Tuesday. It would force county and municipal governments to follow the schedule of holidays used by the state, which gives workers 12 paid days off, including May 10 to honor Confederate war dead. Mississippi and Alabama also recognize Confederate Memorial Day.

Years ago, Ford said, he pushed a bill to make both that day and Martin Luther King Jr. Day paid holidays. He considered it an effort to help people understand the history of both the civil rights movement and the Confederacy in a state where the Orders of Secession are engraved in marble in the Statehouse lobby, portraits of Confederate generals look down on legislators in their chambers and the Confederate flag flies outside.

"Every municipality and every citizen of South Carolina, should be, well, forced to respect these two days and learn what they can about those two particular parts of our history," Ford said Tuesday.

In a state steeped in a segregationist past, "there's no love in this state between black and white basically," he said. That's not apparent at the Statehouse, where black and white legislators get along, "but if you go out there in real South Carolina, it's hatred and I think we can bring our people together."

Lonnie Randolph, president of the state conference of NAACP branches, objected to that reasoning.

"Here Senator Ford is talking about the importance of race relations by forcing recognition of people who did everything they could to destroy another race — particularly those that look like I do," Randolph said. "You can't make dishonor honorable. It's impossible."

Ron Dorgay, a Sons of Confederate Veterans member from Elgin, said race relations have moved far from hatred but he hopes Ford's bill brings more understanding of the state's past.

"Even in school systems, they don't teach the correct history," Dorgay said.

Local governments, meanwhile, are seeing green, not race, when it comes to adding holidays to their calendars.

Large and small counties would put up more cash to cover holidays they don't now recognize, largely for law enforcement and emergency worker overtime, municipal and county association lobbyists said.

Only 10 of the state's 46 counties recognize Confederate Memorial Day and only 27 observe the more benign Presidents' Day.

Greenville County, one of the state's wealthiest and most populous counties, doesn't offer the Confederate holiday. The Judiciary Committee said the county would spend $156,900 to add each holiday to its calendar. Much smaller Laurens County would spend $37,080.

Ford dismissed the costs.

"The good outweighs any kind of rationale you can come up with," he said before the subcommittee sent the bill forward to the full Senate Judiciary Committee for debate, which won't happen until at least next week.

Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Glenn McConnell, R-Charleston, supports the bill — and holding back chunks of the more than $300 million the state sends local governments each year.

Counties and cities "should be respectful of that as political subdivisions of the state," said McConnell, a Civil War re-enactor who runs a Charleston Confederate wares gallery and on Tuesday fretted how new junk metal collection legislation might affect his cannon. "If they don't want to be a subdivision of the state, then don't take the money."

As he, my apologies, proposed the dual-recognize years ago before MLK day was a national holiday. Now that it is, he seems to feel he still needs to recognize the Confederate Holiday as well for some idiotic reason.

[Broomstick]

You can respect the fact the Confederates fought and died for their country/flag/whatever without condoning their belief or social system. It would be entirely appropriate for the crew of the CSS Hunley to be buried under the stars and bars, for example. But "confederate rememberence day" is horseshit. They lost. You don't get a special holiday for being a loser. Remember the guys on both sides of the US Civil War who fought and suffered and died, but do it on the official Memorial Day.

[Covenant]

There's no need to continually punish the modern-day residents of the American south for having lived in the same geographical region as the Confederacy, but the moment you start wanting to celebrate that legacy you've admitted you want to be connected to it. If you choose to be connected to a failed traitor-state whose principles were designed to further an economic model built upon slavery, then I'm sorry, you lose credability. Not every Southerner or even every slaveowner was an evil fuck, but if you want, celebrate the resistance against slavery in the south--not the Confederacy. You can have a soldier's memorial, or you can have a memorial to the people who tried to slip people up North, or you can have a memorial for events and such. But to commemorate and remember the Confederacy itself? That's lunacy. Talk about stoking the fires of a culture war. The south lost. It wouldn't have lasted anyway. Get over it.

[MoralCompass]

Well, this strategy was able to force every town in America to name a street after MLK, maybe it'll work for holidays too?

[Darth Wong]

Well, this strategy was able to force every town in America to name a street after MLK, maybe it'll work for holidays too?

MLK deserves to have streets named after him. The Confederate movement deserves only scorn and contempt.

[K. A. Pital]

Also, when was the last time you saw a monument to the dead of Nazi Germany? I sure haven't seen any, but maybe their are some in Europe.

A few of them are in Latin America, where quite a few fascists fled after the Reich and it's satellites were defeated - and pretty large ones, as well.

[Zwinmar]

I am no southern apologist. I hate slavery in all its forms. The Confederacy lost so it doesnt need to be remembered by a memorial of that sort. However, the populace of the southern states were the majority of battles were fought: specifically Tennesse, et al, did have a legitimate reason to fight against the North. The Federal Armies did invade, did rape, pillage and burn, they did make life hell for the populace whom, in many cases, did not know what the politicians were up to.

90% of the wasp population in the south did not own slaves, and in the majority of cases they were poor white farmers. What they responded to was an invasion of their homes. I should also point out that the South did have the right to succeed at the time, and may I also point out that the "Holy" Constitution was written during a coup that overthrew the articles of confederation.

Having said that, the men who died should be remembered, on memorial day, a special day is not needed for them, however, the stars and bars should be abolished forever.

[Samuel]

I am no southern apologist. I hate slavery in all its forms. The Confederacy lost so it doesnt need to be remembered by a memorial of that sort. However, the populace of the southern states were the majority of battles were fought: specifically Tennesse, et al, did have a legitimate reason to fight against the North. The Federal Armies did invade, did rape, pillage and burn, they did make life hell for the populace whom, in many cases, did not know what the politicians were up to.

Which is why areas like the Confederacy of the Jones and West Virginia existed, right? The fact of the matter is the border states were rife with pro and anti Union fighting. They knew the consequences of choosing the wrong side.

90% of the wasp population in the south did not own slaves, and in the majority of cases they were poor white farmers. What they responded to was an invasion of their homes. I should also point out that the South did have the right to succeed at the time, and may I also point out that the "Holy" Constitution was written during a coup that overthrew the articles of confederation.

Slavery in the antebellum South was not a monolithic system; its nature varied widely across the region. At one extreme one white family in thirty owned slaves in Delaware; in contrast, half of all white families in South Carolina did so. Overall, 26 percent of Southern white families owned slaves.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/slavery.htm

The US Civil War began when the South decided to seize forts that were federal property- a naked act of aggression.

The constitution was not written in a coup- it was extra-constitutional, but it was approved of by a democratic process with delegates choosen by the voters specially for the occasion.

[Darth Wong]

I am no southern apologist. I hate slavery in all its forms. The Confederacy lost so it doesnt need to be remembered by a memorial of that sort. However, the populace of the southern states were the majority of battles were fought: specifically Tennesse, et al, did have a legitimate reason to fight against the North. The Federal Armies did invade, did rape, pillage and burn, they did make life hell for the populace whom, in many cases, did not know what the politicians were up to.

By that retarded logic, the Nazis had a "legitimate reason to fight" the Allies, so we should celebrate Nazi Day.

[Mayabird]

However, the populace of the southern states were the majority of battles were fought: specifically Tennesse, et al, did have a legitimate reason to fight against the North. The Federal Armies did invade, did rape, pillage and burn, they did make life hell for the populace whom, in many cases, did not know what the politicians were up to.

Bullfuckingshit. Most of that rape and pillaging was done by the Confederacy's own troops (especially the cavalry, who felt they had the privilege of confiscating any horses, food, and so on that they came across). As much as I love Sherman and his curbstomping of Georgia and South Carolina, it really wasn't much of a total war by modern standards. There were a grand total of seven rapes during the entire March to the Sea (62,000 troops plus people joining along the way, mostly escaped slaves, meaning this was about the only time in history that an army was bigger at the end of a campaign than at the beginning), and IIRC the seven guilty were hanged. That really sounds like a pack of savages despoiling the local womenfolk. The pillaging wasn't even all that impressive, except for the big plantations (which totally deserved it; there's a reason why Sherman specifically ordered "spare nothing" to Howell Cobb's plantation). Atlanta came already pre-burned by evacuating Confederate when he got there and Sherman's troops simply finished it when they left. The things that were wrecked most were the railroads.

And they damn well knew what their politicians were up to. That's why many areas counter-seceded. A number of counties such as Union County in Georgia (notice the name), and eastern Tennessee (which was invaded and forced back into the Confederacy which it never wanted to join), as well as the previous mentioned West Virginia.

Don't swallow apologist bullshit.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I'm curious as to why anyone has a problem with commemorating dead soldiers that fought for their lands and the recognized government of those lands. People don't fault the German Army, Navy and Air Force for fighting for Hitler, we don't hate the British citizens that fought for their lands in America? Why should we fault the people in the American southern states for fighting for who was in control of their lands at the time?

I don't recall us celebrating or remember the dead soldiers that Japan, Germany, Vietnam, or Iraq suffered at the hands of American soldiers, therefore, I don't see what grounds Confederate sympathizers think they're standing on.

The confederacy is an enemy of the United States, and is not entitled to any recognition beyond that. Also, on a personal note. Fuck them all.

EDIT - I feel that I need to clarify that when I say "fuck them all" it was only directed at the Confederacy...

[Darth Wong]

I'm not sure what the hell Havokeff is thinking when he says that no one has a problem with commemorating enemy dead. How many Americans would support Nazi Day, or Kamikaze Day?

[Patrick Degan]

How many Americans would support Nazi Day...?

Well... These gentlemen, for a start.


Oh, there's Reagan at his visit to a Nazi SS cemetery in Bitburg.

[Darth Wong]

Oh yes, I forgot about all the rabid fascist-wannabe military-wankers for whom martial glory is all, and merit to humanity is nothing.

[Qwerty 42]

I should also point out that the South did have the right to succeed at the time...

I understand that it is difficult to respond when inundated with rebuttals, so I apologize for contributing another, but I feel that this point bears response: the short answer, of course, is that they did not.

Setting aside the extra-legal arguments regarding the survivability of a country where secession is permitted over an issue as petty as an election legitimately lost, there was no good legal reason for the Confederate states to withdraw from the union.

The Articles of Confederation are explicitly clear that no secession would be tolerated, and when the Constitution was drawn up, it specifies "a more perfect union," implying that the bonds between states would be even stronger under this new document. Of course, one might choose, then, to say that "a more perfect union" could just as easily be a weaker one. I would, in return, point out that the selected word was "union," and not "country" or any of its synonyms. In the latter, that argument might be legitimate. In the former, the implication is clear that the nation was to become more closely knit than was permitted under the Articles. But no matter.

Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution states that one of the powers ascribed to Congress is "To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;"

In other words, a great deal of territory within states belonged to the United States government, specifically Congress. Indeed, this was the issue at large with the Confederate seizure of forts, culminating in the battle over Fort Sumter. It is not, obviously, legally sensible for a country to allow for states to withdraw haphazardly given the nature of that Section. Who would govern the Constitutionally-described Federal territories? Congress?

In other words, it may well be that a state could withdraw from the Union by submitting the request to Congress and letting them hammer out the details regarding the fate of federal property. It is not, however, legal for a state to functionally pick up its toys and go home, as the Confederacy did.

[Kamakazie Sith]

How many Americans would support Nazi Day...?

<snip image>
Well... These gentlemen, for a start.

The KKK is considered a criminal organization by the US government. I realize that you're answering the question, but organizations such as these aren't good examples because of their criminal history. I'm sure you could find a non-criminal american organization that supports white power.

<snip image>
Oh, there's Reagan at his visit to a Nazi SS cemetery in Bitburg.

Yeah, he did so as a gesture of good will towards to German people, and it turned into a firestorm for him. Not exactly a warm reception from the American people...