New US Transportation Chief Eyes Taxing Your Mileage

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Why not raise the gas tax? We need to get people off the roads, and this will be just as destructive to the economy as raising the gas tax; I don't see how anyone could convince themselves otherwise.

Why not raise the gas tax and impose a mileage tax? The people paying less gas tax by switching to fuel-misers will get hit by the mileage tax. To provide incentive for people to switch to fuel-misers, we raise the gas tax over what we'd need to actually collect for infrastructure maintenance/improvement so those who drive fuel-inefficient vehicles will get smacked harder.

As mentioned in the article, having every motorist's mileage monitored by GPS is just...a...little...creepy, Orwellian, authoritarian, fascistic, controlling and a bad fucking idea. With a bare minimum of hardware changes, like I don't know a Wi-Fi or cellular repeater, it would be theoretically possible for a room full of donut-chewing DOT bureaucrats to keep real-time tabs on anyone they chose. How far from there to automatic speeding tickets, based on GPS readings, hmmm?

Take off the tinfoil hat, champ. They already have speed-enforcement cameras which automatically generate citations. Hell, I'd be all for mandated GPS trackers just for the epic lulz when those assholes, who do 20 MPH over the speed limit for the 28 days out of the month the traffic cops aren't out filling their quotas, get nailed for speeding.

And, anyway, GPS to track mileage? Why? Just mandate annual inspection and registration, and assess the tax as part of the registration fees. Of if annual vehicle inspection is too "fascist" for you, then just assess it whenever the time comes to renew a person's vehicle registration. Just record the odometer reading when they get their vehicle smog-checked.

[Phantasee]

My main problem with this is that cars that use more gas tend to be bigger, heavier machines which do more damage to the roads. Potholes aren't made and exacerbated nearly as much by Ford Escorts as by Ford F-350s.

Forget the F-350s. The majority of the road damage you see are large commercial trucks (the Peterbilts, Kenworths, Macks). I think that's why NZ taxes diesel vehicles, on account of all these large trucks running on diesel, exclusively.

Let's be honest here: roads (highways) weren't built for the Jones to get to places on their summer vacation, they were built for commercial trucks to move shit across the country.

The best solution is to jack up gas taxes, and diesel taxes. The taxes can be claimed back by the trucking companies, in part, and/or the diesel is an expense anyway. It would mostly peg gas guzzlers, companies already have incentives to use more fuel-efficient vehicles in the interestes of maximizing profits. It's normal people who buy gas guzzlers as status symbols or whatever.

It's worked well for every other place in the world, and it would work well in N. America as well.

[Kanastrous]

Of if annual vehicle inspection is too "fascist" for you, then just assess it whenever the time comes to renew a person's vehicle registration. Just record the odometer reading when they get their vehicle smog-checked.

I foresee a thriving business in odometer tampering.

[General Zod]

Why not raise the gas tax and impose a mileage tax? The people paying less gas tax by switching to fuel-misers will get hit by the mileage tax. To provide incentive for people to switch to fuel-misers, we raise the gas tax over what we'd need to actually collect for infrastructure maintenance/improvement so those who drive fuel-inefficient vehicles will get smacked harder.

How do you expect to enforce a mileage tax though? Fine people who can't afford to install the system that monitors it? Unless the government offers to pay for the installation in every vehicle in the US it's a horribly unrealistic scheme. It might work if it were simply installed in all new cars going forward, but not as a retroactive measure.

[Stark]

If quote tags, dressed link and no-comment line are preferred, I'm happy to add them to future linked articles. I don't find that they add much of anything but if that's board-standard I'll certainly comply.

Or you could even - gosh - have a goddamn comment and not just be posting into the ether. If you can't even ask a question or raise a point about an article, why are you even posting it? There are news sites for people who give a fuck.

It's fucking hilarious that you're all 'omg odo tampering this won't work because of obvious workarounds' when you DON'T like a law (even a law proposal) that concievably has some benefit but insist everyone follow the law to the letter regardless of obvious enforcement problems or ethical concerns when you DO like a law. Just because people are messing with odometers doesn't affect the issues behind such proposals; odo tampering is as old as logbooks and as others say there are better ways of raising this kind of cash anyway.

[Jade Falcon]

And, anyway, GPS to track mileage? Why? Just mandate annual inspection and registration, and assess the tax as part of the registration fees. Of if annual vehicle inspection is too "fascist" for you, then just assess it whenever the time comes to renew a person's vehicle registration. Just record the odometer reading when they get their vehicle smog-checked.

Well this is already done in the UK. A brand new car has a 3 year free period. After that, its a yearly MOT, which is a roadworthiness check, things like emissions, exhaust condition, suspension etc. As part of the MOT certificate, each year the mileage is logged, although the one time there can be complications are on cars with electronic odometers and the instrument panels go kaput. However, you then have to inform the DVLA when you get your replacement.

[Tsyroc]

Here in Arizona DMV asks for the odometer reading every time you get the emissions checked on your vehicle. That's once a year for most vehicles registered in the counties with major metropolitan (ie polution issues) areas. They are kind of lax in being real specific but there's no reason why they couldn't be very precise during the check.

Before there's a law to require new equipment on all existing motor vehicles I'd think it would be more cost effective to just have the odometer physically checked once a year.

Otherwise there's always increasing the cost of vehicle registration and fuel taxes that can be used. More toll roads and increased tolls on high impact vehicles could also do the trick.

Is there really that much concern that so many people are going to switch over to electric vehicles that there won't be any taxes for road upkeep?

[Jade Falcon]

Here in Arizona DMV asks for the odometer reading every time you get the emissions checked on your vehicle. That's once a year for most vehicles registered in the counties with major metropolitan (ie polution issues) areas. They are kind of lax in being real specific but there's no reason why they couldn't be very precise during the check.

Before there's a law to require new equipment on all existing motor vehicles I'd think it would be more cost effective to just have the odometer physically checked once a year.

Otherwise there's always increasing the cost of vehicle registration and fuel taxes that can be used. More toll roads and increased tolls on high impact vehicles could also do the trick.

Is there really that much concern that so many people are going to switch over to electric vehicles that there won't be any taxes for road upkeep?

The MOT covers quite a lot, more than I mentioned. It's tyres, brakes, emissions, certain areas where rust is really bad, seat belts etc.

Info here, it shows you up at the top, and if you click a category it shows you what is checked. They do check that the odometer is consistent and log the new mileage. You have to present your previous MOT certificate as well as showing the logbook.

http://www.ukmot.com/mot_check.asp

[Kanastrous]

If quote tags, dressed link and no-comment line are preferred, I'm happy to add them to future linked articles. I don't find that they add much of anything but if that's board-standard I'll certainly comply.

Or you could even - gosh - have a goddamn comment and not just be posting into the ether. If you can't even ask a question or raise a point about an article, why are you even posting it? There are news sites for people who give a fuck.

Thanks for your modding effort on my behalf.

Except you're not a mod, are you? So fuck off.

It's fucking hilarious that you're all 'omg odo tampering this won't work because of obvious workarounds'

I never suggested that this won't work because of odometer tampering. I simply predicted that odometer tampering will become more popular as a result. Did you see words like "this won't work" in my post? No? So again, fuck off.

Are you on the rag extra-special today, or what?

[Stark]

Thanks for your modding effort on my behalf.

Except you're not a mod, are you? So fuck off.

Not seeing how this stops you being dumber than DEATH. Dressing the links is even in the board FAQ!

I never suggested that this won't work because of odometer tampering. I simply predicted that odometer tampering will become more popular as a result. Did you see words like "this won't work" in my post? No? So again, fuck off.

Are you on the rag extra-special today, or what?

I'm stunned you can't see how the realistic observation of simple countermeasures making a law difficult to enforce is relevant, but oh well. BTW; people messing with their odo (in ways that have been done for decades) is an example of flawed enforcement, which is probably why the ridiculous 'fit your own gps tracker' thing is being considered elsewhere. Things like fuel tax are simply a more realistic and less avoidable way of doing it.

That said, back in the 90s heyday of logbook fraud with new regulations for truck drivers, I remember some kind of addition to the odo of commercial vehicles that was pushed out; I'll see if I can find what it was and if it's still used.

[Master of Ossus]

Why not raise the gas tax and impose a mileage tax? The people paying less gas tax by switching to fuel-misers will get hit by the mileage tax. To provide incentive for people to switch to fuel-misers, we raise the gas tax over what we'd need to actually collect for infrastructure maintenance/improvement so those who drive fuel-inefficient vehicles will get smacked harder.

Because, as compared to a revenue-neutral rise in the gas tax, a mileage tax+fuel tax will always provide a reduced incentive to move towards more fuel-efficient cars and trucks.

[Guardsman Bass]

It's not that it's "Orwellian" or the like; as Stuart Mackay pointed out, there are other ways of doing it than planting a GPS chip in every car.

It just seems like a needlessly complicated way to raise revenue for infrastructure without raising federal gasoline taxation, sort of like how the US does that mandatory Fuel Mileage Per Gallon system rather than just raising the gas taxes to discourage gas-guzzlers. Even toll booths on the highways leading out and in of big cities would probably be easier to set up and run.

[bilateralrope]

You don't need GPS to do it. NZ has mileage charges on diesel vehicles and this does not require GPS, all you do is 'buy mileage' when one's initial mileage has run out. The amount bought, and when, is recorded on a sticker on the windscreen for enforcement purposes.

How big of a percentage do diesel vehicles make up of NZ's driver population though? I just don't see it being terribly enforceable when we're talking millions of cars without some sort of automated system. (Ignoring the terrible implementation aspect, for the moment).

The cars odometer keeps track of how far the car has travelled. If a cop notices that the odometer shows a larger distance than the value on the mileage sticker, that is when the driver gets in trouble. The driver is expected to pay to keep the sticker valid, and they generally do.

It wouldn't be too hard to make checking this part of the warrant of fitness checks (making sure the car is still roadworthy) for vehicles. Just allowing the WOF mechanic to profit from selling the mileage stickers might be enough on an incentive for them to check it. So scaling it to everyone shouldn't be an issue.

So all the NZ system needs is a sticker to show how far the car has travelled, meaning the GPS system is making this system more expensive than it needs to be.

My main problem with this is that cars that use more gas tend to be bigger, heavier machines which do more damage to the roads. Potholes aren't made and exacerbated nearly as much by Ford Escorts as by Ford F-350s.

New Zealand charges heavier diesel vehicles more per km.

Gas taxes are one of the best ways government can encourage people to drive more fuel-efficient cars and conserve gas. Switching to a mileage-based system removes the incentive to drive a fuel-efficient car - whether you drive a Prius or a Hummer, you'd pay the same.

I'm not looking at the mileage tax as a system to pay for road upkeep and building new roads. Meaning I'd want the people who use the roads more to pay more towards them. A mileage tax would do this, a gas tax only does until people switch to fuel-efficient cars.

Of if annual vehicle inspection is too "fascist" for you, then just assess it whenever the time comes to renew a person's vehicle registration. Just record the odometer reading when they get their vehicle smog-checked.

I foresee a thriving business in odometer tampering.

Isn't odometer tampering already illegal ?

[xerex]

Lahood's Idea of a National Mileage Tax Nixed.

President Barack Obama will not adopt a plan to tax motorists based on how many miles they drive. Press Secretary Robert Gibbs commented about Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood's proposal to tax people by how many miles they drive instead of raising the federal gasoline tax. Friday, Gibbs says the tax will not be the policy of the Obama administration.

LaHood said the gasoline tax that pays for the federal share of highway and bridge construction can no longer raise enough money to keep up with the nation's transportation system. Other transportation experts see the vehicle miles traveled tax as a long-term solution and some states are talking about such programs.

LaHood says he is firmly opposed to raising the federal gasoline tax in the surrent recession and was just trying to think outside the box as a way to fund the nation's infrastructure.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29306134/

[Jade Falcon]

Odometer tampering is illegal, however there are times when apparent tampering is unavoidable. Example, my old Passat had an electronic odometer and the whole instrument head unit went necessitating a replacement which showed the mileage as 0. However, since I knew the previous mileage, the car electrics garage sent a notification to the DVLA about what would seem like an inconsistency, and the MOT process is computerised with a central database in Swansea. Obviously if they hadn't been notified there would have been a red light appear when the MOT with the new head unit appeared. Apparently it was a common fault with the B4 Passats anyway.

[Darth Fanboy]

Other motorists say it eliminates an incentive to drive more fuel-efficient cars since gas guzzlers will be taxed at the same rate as fuel sippers.

I would have to say that I agree with this opinion, and i'm also personally against this admittedly because I am currently driving 100 miles a day round trip each day that I work.

[Alyeska]

And what about those of us who live in the large western states with low population density? Are you trying to punish us with these gas and mileage taxes? We don't live in the suburbs. We don't live in the big city. We can't live by the imaginary rules you are trying to arbitrarily apply on us because you think all driving is bad.

[Jade Falcon]

Other motorists say it eliminates an incentive to drive more fuel-efficient cars since gas guzzlers will be taxed at the same rate as fuel sippers.

I would have to say that I agree with this opinion, and i'm also personally against this admittedly because I am currently driving 100 miles a day round trip each day that I work.

There's a multiple road tax band in the UK that is dependent on how fuel efficient, among other things, your car is. Up to 2000 if your car had an engine bigger than 1.6 I think it is, you paid a certain amount, lower it was a smaller amount. If the car was manufactured after 2000 the system became more complicated and even more so after 2004. There's been talks of applying the new road tax bands after 2004 retroactively to those cars built between 2001 and 2004.

[Darth Fanboy]

There's a multiple road tax band in the UK that is dependent on how fuel efficient, among other things, your car is. Up to 2000 if your car had an engine bigger than 1.6 I think it is, you paid a certain amount, lower it was a smaller amount. If the car was manufactured after 2000 the system became more complicated and even more so after 2004. There's been talks of applying the new road tax bands after 2004 retroactively to those cars built between 2001 and 2004.

How well would that system work for a population that is approximately five times larger that owns more cars per capita?

[Jade Falcon]

How well would that system work for a population that is approximately five times larger that owns more cars per capita?

I don't know, and I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, I'm just pointing out the UK system. Personally I've got a 2000 2.4 litre engined Galant, but I'm not a high mileage driver, whereas you could get someone with a 1 litre or 1.2 that drives about 80,000 miles a year. What's doing the most damage to the roads, consuming the most fuel etc?

Here's the Road Tax guide

http://www.parkers.co.uk/News/Road-tax/ ... x-changes/

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Why not raise the gas tax and impose a mileage tax? The people paying less gas tax by switching to fuel-misers will get hit by the mileage tax. To provide incentive for people to switch to fuel-misers, we raise the gas tax over what we'd need to actually collect for infrastructure maintenance/improvement so those who drive fuel-inefficient vehicles will get smacked harder.

Because the United States is a huge country where the population density is much less than in Western Europe, and you'd be brutalizing people who have to travel long distances to do things that people in urban areas can do easily by walking. Look, I'm going to WSU in the far eastern part of Washington State, a 350 mile drive from where I was living before, and I pass by farmhouses fifty-fucking-miles from the nearest supermarket; these people shouldn't be required to get in a horse and buggy and ride into town once a month over a three day weekend to get bulk food and maybe some lemon juice to keep their kids from getting scurvy, which is what a mileage tax is going to force them to do, because the rate which is a trifling inconvenience for an urban dweller will murder people living in the middle of nowhere. That's why this is the dumbest fucking idea ever; farmers in America are already badly squeezed (the subsidies go to the big agricorps) and rural people in general live lives already far below the average... And you want to just kick them down further? These are the people who grow the food you eat, and who are engaged in industries which are genuinely useful to the survival of this country, unlike the urban dwellers who it turns out have been largely producing fake money for the past two decades while our heavy industry was sold to China; but I still see the smoke from factory chimneys in the likes of Othello, WA.

Now, such a mileage tax could be implemented in the future--when we have 400,000 miles of electrified railroad with daily elektrichka service, sure as shit, it won't be a big deal. The day when the Milwaukee Road mainline from Seattle to St. Paul has been restored to full service and I can hop on an overnight at 11 PM in downtown Seattle and get out of my compartment at Pullman's revivified old station at 7 AM, damn sure, institute a mileage tax. But right now, a mileage tax would be a punch in the gut for millions of Americans who simply cannot avoid driving a hundred miles a day. At one goddamned point in the near past, the only way for me to bring in any income was to work a job which required a 120 mile round-trip commute by car, every day. So you know what I did to do my part to reduce emissions? I drove a car which got 40 mpg, and I negotiated with my boss to work double shifts three days a week, so I clocked in at 7 AM and clocked out at 9 PM, three days a week, to bring my gas mileage down. And you want to throw a mileage tax on top of that? Hell no. Now if the transportation infrastructure was such that the public transportation alternative for getting there wouldn't have taken three and a half hours each way (i.e. a 15.5 hour day if I worked regularly shifts), then, damn straight, I would have commuted using public transportation.

But it isn't there, and until it is, this tax is murderous. And this is why I'm severely disappointed in Obama not making a major initiative out of mass public transportation, out of lots and lots of passenger rail, lots and lots of new railroads, lots and lots of light rail and subways and monorails and lots of ferries and lots of electric buses. Because if you want to change how Americans rape the shit out of the environment, then you need to end the car culture, and you're not going to end the car culture by raising taxes on cars, that's just going to fuck over the poorest of the poor. You're going to end it by building up a transportation infrastructure as a viable alternative first and then clamping down hard on car-driving. The gas tax gives a person flexibility. I can go buy a car, for my long commutes, which is so efficient that I pay as much driving 100 miles in that car, as the dickwad who drives a V-10 Ford Excursion to work pays for his penis compensation mobile; and I will damned well do that. But I may not have a choice about driving 100 miles a day to keep from being homeless and starving to death, and as soon as you start a tax which taxes me MORE for my doing what's necessary to survive in a state with no welfare net, when the dickwad driving to work in his Excursion pays less, then you have not just broken but cracked in half and sodomized the entire idea of a fair society.

This isn't about the republitards in this thread complaining about intrusions into privacy and other crap; this is about the simple fact that this is the ultimate regressive tax which assumes that people have a choice in how many miles they drive. They don't, the poorest people in our society simply don't, and that's why this tax is a gross and unjust tyranny, because it would be stuffing it to the poor and giving a free ride to the shitfucker 50 year old men clogging the air with greenhouse gasses in their giant dickmobiles on the way to the Walmart a half mile down the street and back.

[Big Phil]

Gasoline taxes that for nearly half a century have paid for the federal share of highway and bridge construction can no longer be counted on to raise enough money to keep the nation's transportation system moving, LaHood said in an interview with The Associated Press.

So the gasoline tax has successfully encouraged people to purchase and drive more fuel efficient vehicles, and now that the effect is reduced tax revenues, rather than simply raising the tax rate to cover the gap, the proposal is to throw away the incentive for fuel efficient vehicles and tax on miles driven?

Amazingly, I'm with Duchess on this one - just raising the fucking gas tax rate and be done with it.

[Scottish Ninja]

About raising the gas tax, wasn't there some talk a few months back - I think it was about right before gas prices really started to drop - to tax gas to the point where the US would have permanent $4/gal gasoline? I'm fairly certain now it was somebody in the Financial Times who was talking about it. That idea has its merits, though how American drivers would howl.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I could still do what I wanted in life if there was, on top of the existing gas tax, a flat $2.00 / gallon additional tax on gas, so I'd support that without hesitation. But a mileage tax would fuck me over harder than getting hit by a freight train, and I know I'm not the only person in that position. So is, say, every single person in Othello Washington, like I noted. So why don't we just add a flat levy of $2.00 / gallon to the existing federal gas tax ? Clearly America can live with that since $4.56 a gallon was handled quite fine in Washington State last summer, and it didn't upfuck our part of the economy any harder than that of the rest of the country, we're actually one of the fiscally better-off places.

[PeZook]

Rising the gas tax could also help pay for additional public transport and reduce wear and tear on the roads by discouraging unnecessary driving ; Just include exemptions for truckers and farmers.