Pregnant girl, 9, aborts twins. Catholic Church whines.

[scythewielder]

They're semi intelligent in that they appear to be leaving the girl alone, and instead going after the mother and the doctors. Still despicable though.

Seems I misread that as the "mother" being a reference to the nine year old, sorry.

[FSTargetDrone]

Sorry for no link again, but I just read on a news site from the Netherlands that the Church wants to charge the mother and doctors with murder. Since when can the Church do anything of the kind? Can anyone speak to that?

[Aratech]

They're semi intelligent in that they appear to be leaving the girl alone, and instead going after the mother and the doctors. Still despicable though.

Seems I misread that as the "mother" being a reference to the nine year old, sorry.

No harm done. Still, in some strange way I hope for the Spokeswoman who made the demand that the fetuses be carried to term to be visited by an unruly mob. Torches and pitchforks optional.

Sorry for no link again, but I just read on a news site from the. Netherlands that the Church wants to charge the mother and doctors with murder? Since when can the Church do anything of the kind? Can anyone speak to that?

To all my knowledge (Mom's half of the family are strong Catholics) they can't. They have no legal power, especially here since there was a judge involve that gave them a court mandated order to carry the abortion out. At best, they could probably try a civil suit under some psuedo-bullshit third party, but they'd probably be laughed out of court.

In short, its somewhat like what happened when the Pope of the time criticized Stalin for all the crimes against Humanity that he was committing:

And how many divisions does the Pope command?

They can whine all they want. They can't do anything more than that.

[Covenant]

There's really no way to fight the "life begins at conception" thing since they base it on an absolutist premise of what life is when the problem is one of degrees. It does not help that any attempt to define “life” or “right to live” based on mental faculty or independent agency tends to make you look like a baby-eating slayer of the mentally and physically impaired, and you fall into the reductio ad hitlerum trap. They’re always waiting with that argument, so people really should stop trying to define a fetus ad not having any right to live or any life of its own and just stick to the ethical argument.

If you do, the only reason someone would ever hold to the absolutist premise in this situation, and not be swayed by the ethical calculus is if they have another parameter: “Anything that has the potential to become a child, if left unimpeded, must be allowed to do so.” This claim to moral authority on this issue is strictly religious, and while they can wrap it in human rights issues, it’s never about that and it will always get back to religion at some point and say “You don’t have the right to choose, so you can’t make a choice.”

These are the people who abstain from choices, rather than choose the lesser of two evils, because they are more concerned about an external judgment than about right action. If they’re not religious, pose the ye olde problem of “Pick one person to die, four people live. Pick nobody, and five die.” If they’re willing to kill one innocent person to save four other innocent people, they’re capable of ethical calculus. If not then they must either blame the rape victim for their rape to make them not innocent, or fall on religion.

It’s very telling that, without a doubt, many of the people defending the right to life of an innocent lump of human cells are also calling for the brutal execution for a much larger lump of human cells. Clearly guilt or innocence of a crime is enough to remove the inviolate right to human life.

It would be interesting to ask them why a crime other than murder gives other men right to kill someone, despite the inviolate right to life. How much guilt do you need before you can kill someone? I can think of lots of good situations to punish that kind of a stance, but again, it’ll always come back to religion, which is full of “because God says so” evasions.

[FSTargetDrone]

Ok, I'm back in front of a real computer.

To all my knowledge (Mom's half of the family are strong Catholics) they can't. They have no legal power, especially here since there was a judge involve that gave them a court mandated order to carry the abortion out. At best, they could probably try a civil suit under some psuedo-bullshit third party, but they'd probably be laughed out of court.

Yeah, I had 12 years of Catholic schooling and I never once heard anything, anywhere, ever about the Church's ability to bring someone up on murder charges.

Anyway, here's the Radio Netherlands Worldwide story:

Brazilian health minister attacks church

Published: Thursday 05 March 2009 22:08 UTC
Last updated: Thursday 05 March 2009 22:10 UTC

Brazil's Health Minister José Gomes Temporao has accused the Roman Catholic Church of taking an "extreme" and unjust position in the case of the 9-year-old girl who had an abortion after being raped by her stepfather.

The girl was carrying twins and local authorities said the procedure was entirely lawful since the pregnancy had placed her life in danger. In Brazil, abortion is only permitted in cases of rape or when pregnancy threatens the life of the mother.

Despite this, the Roman Catholic church had threatened to charge the mother of the girl with murder. A lawyer for the archdiocese of Olinda and Recife, which lies in the northeast of the country, says the child should have brought the twins into the world and said the abortion contravened the laws of the church. The doctors who carried out the abortion and the mother of the girl have been excommunicated from the church.

Minister Gomes Temporao said he was shocked by the reaction of the church - which "wrongly" puts one life in danger while purportedly defending the life of another - and praised the doctors' decision to save the girl's life.

The stepfather, who began abusing the girl when she was six, is now in prison.

I seriously doubt the Church will ever change its stance on abortion in cases such as this. If they make an exception here, then why not in the case of rape involving an adult woman? We will see a married female Pope before anything else changes with respect to the Church's views on abortion.

As an aside, I wonder how all of this was explained to the child? She may not understand now why she was pregnant, or why she is no longer pregnant. Someday, she will though. Quite horrifying. It seems that all that should matter is the best interests of her, and the Church is not helping in the least. She will eventually grown up and learn her mother has been excommunicated. I don't envy her. Not that excommunication means very much to someone like me, but still.

[Jade Falcon]

Well of course there are people who support that nonsense at SB. SB is a haven for fundie shitheads.

I'd like to think that EmpSolo, the Vatican Spambot and answering machine doesn't speak for the majority of SB.

[TithonusSyndrome]

So much for the "progressive" and "modern" Church of religious moderates. We see here and elsewhere how it behaves in countries too poor for a large middle-class with a median opinion that looks down on this kind of barbarism. One face for the poor, and another face in countries where only moderate religion is considered acceptable; that's the inviolable truth of the Almighty!

[Jade Falcon]

Really, what excuse does the church have? The case used to be with some pregnancies was that the RCC's viewpoint was that basically it didn't matter what happened to the mother, as long as the child survived, but forcing this kid to go through with this birth would have resulted in 3 deaths.

[Aratech]

Really, what excuse does the church have? The case used to be with some pregnancies was that the RCC's viewpoint was that basically it didn't matter what happened to the mother, as long as the child survived, but forcing this kid to go through with this birth would have resulted in 3 deaths.

Unless I've forgotten what my relatives have told me, attempting to coerce/force someone to commit murder under Catholicism is treated harshly, supposedly grounds for excommunication. If that is the case, what we have here is the Vatican demanding the death of three human beings, and under their own laws, the Papal big wigs are now capable of being kicked out of their own church.

Granted, it's not like that's every going to happen, as History has proven more times than can be recounted that the Pope and his buddies are not held to the same standards as the rest of the Faithful.

[defanatic]

It's slightly confusing when people say "the child", as the 9 year old is a child, and I noticed that solo guy calling the fetus a child all the time.

It's better in context, but when you talk about right of life, I'm sure the mother also has it, and if the mother dies, so do the unborn.

[Mayabird]

The president of Brazil is not happy.

Lula 'rues' Church abortion move
Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva
President Lula said the doctors had been trying to save the girl's life

The Brazilian president has criticised a Catholic archbishop for excommunicating several people who helped a young girl have an abortion.

The nine-year-old child underwent the abortion of twins she conceived after alleged abuse by her stepfather.

President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, himself a Catholic, said he regretted what he described as the cleric's deeply conservative attitude.

Brazil only permits abortions in cases of rape or health risks to the mother.

Doctors said the girl's case met both these conditions, but the Catholic Church said the law of God was above any human law.

The Archbishop of Olinda and Recife, Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, said the excommunication would apply to the child's mother and the doctors, but not to the girl because of her age.

But his actions were criticised by President Lula, who said: "As a Christian and a Catholic I deeply regret that a bishop of the Catholic Church has such a conservative attitude.

"The doctors did what had to be done: save the life of a girl nine years old.

"In this case, the medical profession was more right than the Church," AFP news agency quoted him as saying.

The girl, who lives in the north-eastern state of Pernambuco, was allegedly sexually assaulted over a number of years by her stepfather, possibly since she was six.

The abortion was carried out on Wednesday.

The fact that the girl was pregnant with twins was only discovered after she was taken to hospital in Pernambuco complaining of stomach pains.

Her stepfather was arrested last week, allegedly as he tried to escape to another region of the country.

He is also suspected of abusing the girl's physically handicapped older sister who is now 14.

[Aratech]

Is it wrong that my immediate, cynical thought on this matter was that by this time tomorrow the president would be served formal notice that the same archbishop is excommunicating him for daring to stand up for the doctors?

[Macunaima]

Is it wrong that my immediate, cynical thought on this matter was that by this time tomorrow the president would be served formal notice that the same archbishop is excommunicating him for daring to stand up for the doctors?

If the archbishop does, the Chuch position right now, already more tarnished by this event than they care to admit, will only to get worst. Several local religions groups are getting anxious because even they believe that the archbishop is blowing this out of proportion and overstating his indignation, particularly when he threatened to get the case to court. With all that, the Church is starting to get serious flak from the local press and the public opinion, particularly in big cities with a more secular view, such as São Paulo.

[Samuel]

Well of course there are people who support that nonsense at SB. SB is a haven for fundie shitheads.

I'd like to think that EmpSolo, the Vatican Spambot and answering machine doesn't speak for the majority of SB.

The majority seems to be tough manning horrific ways to kill the man.

[Kitsune]

I'd like to think that EmpSolo, the Vatican Spambot and answering machine doesn't speak for the majority of SB.

he is still around? What is weird is that he may go to the same exact church that my brother and his wife do. Of course my brother seems a lot more liberal than him.

Isn't what the Catholic Church doing a good thing though? Each and utter stupidity likely loses more believers even in places like Central America and South America. I want there to be a trial, as long as trials in Brazil are reasonably fair. It gives another chance to show that the Emperor has no clothes!

[Invictus ChiKen]

Is it wrong that my immediate, cynical thought on this matter was that by this time tomorrow the president would be served formal notice that the same archbishop is excommunicating him for daring to stand up for the doctors?

No not Obama as you first have to be Catholic to be excommunicated, however the Pope has sent him several harsh letters. There is however a very strong movement going on to start leaning on all pro-choice Catholics in government and deny communion to them until they start towing the Vatican Party line.

There's also growing talk of punishments for all Obama supporters in the Church. This may be a very bad move on the Church's part and will have sever repercussions.

[Mayabird]

What is this Obama talk? We're talking about President Lula of Brazil, here. At any rate, I wonder if he's deliberately baiting them.

And now an update

Vatican backs abortion row bishop

A senior Vatican cleric has defended the excommunication in Brazil of the mother and doctors of a young girl who had an abortion with their help.

The nine-year-old had conceived twins after alleged abuse by her stepfather.

Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re told Italian paper La Stampa that the twins "had the right to live" and attacks on Brazil's Catholic Church were unfair.

It comes a day after Brazil's president criticised the Brazilian archbishop who excommunicated the people involved.

Brazil only permits abortions in cases of rape or health risks to the mother.

Doctors said the girl's case met both these conditions, but the Archbishop of Olinda and Recife, Jose Cardoso Sobrinho said the law of God was above any human law.

He said the excommunication would apply to the child's mother and the doctors, but not to the girl because of her age.

'Sad case'

Cardinal Re, who heads the Roman Catholic Church's Congregation for Bishops and the Pontifical Commission for Latin America, told La Stampa that the archbishop had been right to excommunicate the mother and doctors.

"It is a sad case but the real problem is that the twins conceived were two innocent persons, who had the right to live and could not be eliminated," he said.

"Life must always be protected, the attack on the Brazilian Church is unjustified."

The abortion was carried out on Wednesday.

Brazil's President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, himself a Catholic, said on Friday that he regretted what he described as the cleric's deeply conservative attitude.

"The doctors did what had to be done: save the life of a girl of nine years old," he said.

The girl, who lives in the north-eastern state of Pernambuco, was allegedly sexually assaulted over a number of years by her stepfather, possibly since she was six.

The fact that she was four months' pregnant with twins was only discovered after she was taken to hospital in Pernambuco complaining of stomach pains.

Her stepfather was arrested last week, allegedly as he tried to escape to another region of the country.

He is also suspected of abusing the girl's physically handicapped 14-year-old sister.

And while I'm here...

The majority seems to be tough manning horrific ways to kill the man.

To be fair, it was like that here until the mods and co. ran their very successful "You will stop this internet tough guy bullshit" campaign which is still ongoing, but more like swatting an occasional fly. It's illustrative of the problems SB.com has that many have complained about, their lack of moderation since the mods don't have much power at all. But I should leave that discussion to people who were there and know more about it. Also another thread.

[Invictus ChiKen]

What is this Obama talk? We're talking about President Lula of Brazil, here. At any rate, I wonder if he's deliberately baiting them.

SHIT! Sorry brain fart. For some reason I thought we'd gone from Brazil to some of Obamas work on pro-choice in the U.S. got this thread and another debate I am in mixed up.

Epic Fail. I is it

[Aratech]

What is this Obama talk? We're talking about President Lula of Brazil, here. At any rate, I wonder if he's deliberately baiting them.

SHIT! Sorry brain fart. For some reason I thought we'd gone from Brazil to some of Obamas work on pro-choice in the U.S. got this thread and another debate I am in mixed up.

Epic Fail. I is it

No worries. I should have specified that it was President Silva that I was talking about.

*reads updated article*

Fucking hypocrite.

[Darth Yoshi]

Man, it's like they're being deliberately obtuse. I mean, it's no great secret that 9 yr old girls are physically incapable of successfully bringing a fetus to term. The twins not making it was a given already; the only question is whether or not the girl would survive. But hey, who cares about her? She's obviously not an innocent.

[Broomstick]

Actually, yes, it IS possible for a 9 year old girl to bring a baby to full term. In fact, the record is a SIX year old girl* successfully delivering a child, said child living to be (if I recall correctly) 51.

It is, however, extremely rare, fraught with real risk, and often burdened with complications.

Twins would just make this worse.

* Yes, clearly a crime. However, she was so young that she never able to identify or name the man who raped her.

[TheKwas]

The article I read had even more batshit insanity contained in it than what's been mentioned already:

A senior Vatican cleric has defended the excommunication of the mother and doctors of a nine-year-old girl who had an abortion in Brazil after being raped.

...
The regional archbishop, Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, pronounced excommunication for the mother for authorising the operation and doctors who carried it out for fear that the slim girl would not survive carrying the foetuses to term.

"God's law is above any human law. So when a human law ... is contrary to God's law, this human law has no value," Cardoso had said.

He also said the accused stepfather would not be expelled from the church. Although the man allegedly committed "a heinous crime ... the abortion - the elimination of an innocent life - was more serious".

Battista Re agreed, saying: "Excommunication for those who carried out the abortion is just" as a pregnancy termination always meant ending an innocent life.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/5375 ... unication/

You heard that right. The mother and doctors are going to be excommunicated, but the stepfather will not because abortion to save a raped, abused girl's life is a more gruesome crime than raping and abusing your own daughter for years. Always good to know that religion installs a good moral sense into a person.

[Aratech]

And they wonder why the number of faithful Catholics in the world is going down...

I said it once, I'll say it again: fucking hypocrite. I suppose, though, there's a twisted logic to it. After all, if they start excommunicating for sexually abusing minor children... why, where would it end? Before you know it, they might actually have to kick out the priests who sexually molested all those kids...

[Darth Yoshi]

Actually, yes, it IS possible for a 9 year old girl to bring a baby to full term. In fact, the record is a SIX year old girl* successfully delivering a child, said child living to be (if I recall correctly) 51.

It is, however, extremely rare, fraught with real risk, and often burdened with complications.

Twins would just make this worse.

* Yes, clearly a crime. However, she was so young that she never able to identify or name the man who raped her.

Ah, I stand corrected. Thank you, Broomstick.

Still, risking the girl's life like that just isn't worth it.

And holy shit, that's some serious asshattery. Just because the girl got an abortion doesn't mean you let the stepfather off the hook.

[Posner]

And they wonder why the number of faithful Catholics in the world is going down...

I said it once, I'll say it again: fucking hypocrite. I suppose, though, there's a twisted logic to it. After all, if they start excommunicating for sexually abusing minor children... why, where would it end? Before you know it, they might actually have to kick out the priests who sexually molested all those kids...

Haha, you would think they would have to excommunicate a lot of priests, but they wouldn't. Excommunication is about putting someone on notice- it isn't final- it's a warning to shape up. All these child rapists have to do is mumble an apology, quote a few lines of the Bible, let Jesus eat their sins, and they can get reassigned to another parish. Crazy world man.