Deadly Hostage Situation in New York

[Garibaldi]

Every time I see another one of these cases, I think that "some loser dude grabbing a gun and shooting a bunch of random people before killing himself" must be the latest fad. Something like this seems to be happening every day now.

When you have a national corporate climate that treats workers like shit and a minimal social safety net of course someone who's unstable to begin with is going to snap and start shooting. Dismissing it as "some loser grabbing a gun" is just a way to stick your head in the sand and ignore the root causes.

[Kanastrous]

It's still fundamentally 'a loser grabbing a gun,' when the causes of his distress may be partly rooted in national corporate climate and minimalism of the social safety net. Thousands/millions deal with the same crap, and don't pick up a gun; it's not the overall life situation the shooter is in that makes him a loser. It's the decision to react by slaughtering as bunch of people not responsible for his overall life situation, that makes him a loser.

[Sephirius]

It's still fundamentally 'a loser grabbing a gun,' when the causes of his distress may be partly rooted in national corporate climate and minimalism of the social safety net. Thousands/millions deal with the same crap, and don't pick up a gun; it's not the overall life situation the shooter is in that makes him a loser. It's the decision to react by slaughtering as bunch of people not responsible for his overall life situation, that makes him a loser.

By that line of thought, would someone walking into an AIG board meeting be less of a loser?

[CaptainChewbacca]

It's still fundamentally 'a loser grabbing a gun,' when the causes of his distress may be partly rooted in national corporate climate and minimalism of the social safety net. Thousands/millions deal with the same crap, and don't pick up a gun; it's not the overall life situation the shooter is in that makes him a loser. It's the decision to react by slaughtering as bunch of people not responsible for his overall life situation, that makes him a loser.

By that line of thought, would someone walking into an AIG board meeting be less of a loser?

Yes, they would be a loser.

[Garibaldi]

It's still fundamentally 'a loser grabbing a gun,' when the causes of his distress may be partly rooted in national corporate climate and minimalism of the social safety net. Thousands/millions deal with the same crap, and don't pick up a gun; it's not the overall life situation the shooter is in that makes him a loser. It's the decision to react by slaughtering as bunch of people not responsible for his overall life situation, that makes him a loser.

You, uh, seem to have missed the point rather badly.

[Mayabird]

I think you're missing the point. There have been big recessions before and depressions before without these near-daily random killing sprees. Rise in suicides and/or murders (for instance, those family annihilators)? I can see that. But these men (it's always men) probably wouldn't even think to do this if they hadn't been watching TV and hearing about other people doing it. Makes it "cool" or something to go kill a bunch of random people.

[Big Orange]

Yet another shooting, three officers dead.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Wow, and they took this new guy alive.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I think you're missing the point. There have been big recessions before and depressions before without these near-daily random killing sprees. Rise in suicides and/or murders (for instance, those family annihilators)? I can see that. But these men (it's always men) probably wouldn't even think to do this if they hadn't been watching TV and hearing about other people doing it. Makes it "cool" or something to go kill a bunch of random people.

FYI - It isn't always men. We had a shooting here in SLC were a women armed with a pistol shot up a business.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Wow, and they took this new guy alive.

Which is an amazing conclusion considering that this guy was engaged in active combat for sustained period of time...

[Kamakazie Sith]

It's still fundamentally 'a loser grabbing a gun,' when the causes of his distress may be partly rooted in national corporate climate and minimalism of the social safety net. Thousands/millions deal with the same crap, and don't pick up a gun; it's not the overall life situation the shooter is in that makes him a loser. It's the decision to react by slaughtering as bunch of people not responsible for his overall life situation, that makes him a loser.

You, uh, seem to have missed the point rather badly.

No, he did not. He actually addressed your point and went on to explain what makes these people losers.

[Broomstick]

Is it usual for a shooting with that many casualties to be done with nothing but pistols?

Georgia Tech was just pistols. If you've got people in confined quarters with no exit, it's all you need. Why do they keep mentioning he was a former IBM employee? He didn't shoot up an IBM office.

I think that should be read FORMER (IBM) EMPLOYEE, the point being he was involuntarily without job. Being laid off does mess with one's head, although most of us refrain from killing ourselves or others when it happens.

It's still fundamentally 'a loser grabbing a gun,' when the causes of his distress may be partly rooted in national corporate climate and minimalism of the social safety net. Thousands/millions deal with the same crap, and don't pick up a gun; it's not the overall life situation the shooter is in that makes him a loser. It's the decision to react by slaughtering as bunch of people not responsible for his overall life situation, that makes him a loser.

By that line of thought, would someone walking into an AIG board meeting be less of a loser?

Yes, they would be a loser.

On the other hand, someone gunning down the board of AIG, loser or otherwise, would gain more sympathy and understanding than this guy. Mainly because AIG hurt a LOT of people and the general public has a broad understanding of that. On the opposite scale, while no one here would condone a man who killed his wife and her extra-curricular lover we would have an understanding of his motive (even if we thought it unjustified) that we don't have for this guy. This guy, no one knows why he snapped like that. That's one reason why it's scary - if you want to avoid getting shot by jealous husbands then don't fuck other men's wives, that's simple, but random acts of lethal violence? How are you supposed to avoid those? That's what makes this more anxiety provoking.

I think you're missing the point. There have been big recessions before and depressions before without these near-daily random killing sprees. Rise in suicides and/or murders (for instance, those family annihilators)? I can see that. But these men (it's always men) probably wouldn't even think to do this if they hadn't been watching TV and hearing about other people doing it. Makes it "cool" or something to go kill a bunch of random people.

FYI - It isn't always men. We had a shooting here in SLC were a women armed with a pistol shot up a business.

It's usually men. Men are far more likely to express aggressive towards external targets like other people whereas women are still more likely to turn their violence inward. There are exceptions, but men are still more inclined to violence than women.

[Big Orange]

Wow, and they took this new guy alive.

Which is an amazing conclusion considering that this guy was engaged in active combat for sustained period of time...

And was killing their own in significant numbers to understandably provoke a lethal reprisal, even if they restrained him.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Wow, and they took this new guy alive.

Which is an amazing conclusion considering that this guy was engaged in active combat for sustained period of time...

And was killing their own in significant numbers to understandably provoke a lethal reprisal, even if they restrained him.

I'm always impressed that cops have the focus/determination/dedication to bring shitheads like this in alive.

[Mayabird]

Alright, mostly men. First time I'd heard about that woman in Salt Lake City. That also makes me wonder how many copycats are going around shooting up places but aren't getting the high bodycounts that warrant national news.

[Garibaldi]

No, he did not. He actually addressed your point and went on to explain what makes these people losers.

Really? Because that would imply my point was that these people were not losers. Except that wasn't my point at all, my point was that there was considerably more to than that, that these people who not be killing anyone if we didn't live in a country where corporations treated their workers like expendable assets and the government only stepped in to help after the worker's life is beyond tatters. Look at Mayabird's idiotic post where she attempts to find the root causes of this behavior. No one who does this kind of thing is mentally stable to begin with, but the system we live in exacerbates the problem and spree killings of this type are the inevitable result. If as a society we were willing to accept that and take the necessary rectifying action, then you'd see a lot less of this (how many spree killings of this sort do you see in Europe? I'm sure you get the occasional lunatic mass-murdering, but I'd bet the problem is not nearly as endemic). But Mayabird comes to the conclusion that people are going on murdering sprees because it's "cool". How or why she reached that conclusion, I don't know, but it's that sort of thinking which allows people to throw up their hands and say "Gee, some people are just nuts", which is completely counter-productive.

[Straha]

Is it usual for a shooting with that many casualties to be done with nothing but pistols?

Georgia Tech was just pistols. If you've got people in confined quarters with no exit, it's all you need. Why do they keep mentioning he was a former IBM employee? He didn't shoot up an IBM office.

I think that should be read FORMER (IBM) EMPLOYEE, the point being he was involuntarily without job. Being laid off does mess with one's head, although most of us refrain from killing ourselves or others when it happens.

Side note: It's since been revealed that the IBM thing was fictitious. As far as anyone can tell people found out he used to be employed and was no longer, and thus made the jump that it was IBM.

Since then we've found out that it was actually a vacuum cleaner repair shop that laid him off. However, we also know that he had steady employment out in California and was making a semi-decent wage, but left it abruptly with little to no warning to come out east to this shithole. So take that for what you will.

[Darth Wong]

It's still fundamentally 'a loser grabbing a gun,' when the causes of his distress may be partly rooted in national corporate climate and minimalism of the social safety net. Thousands/millions deal with the same crap, and don't pick up a gun; it's not the overall life situation the shooter is in that makes him a loser. It's the decision to react by slaughtering as bunch of people not responsible for his overall life situation, that makes him a loser.

By that line of thought, would someone walking into an AIG board meeting be less of a loser?

Yes, they would be a loser.

I think you missed the point of the statement that people like this are losers. The word "loser" in this context is not being used a moral judgement on their actions. It is about their status before they snapped. It is a description of their failure to achieve some measure of satisfaction out of life. People who commit serial murders like this are often failures. They may be social rejects, thus failing to achieve the social acceptance which humans all instinctively desire, or economic failures, thus failing to achieve the financial goals which our society forces us all to accept as our own, or they may be "estranged boyfriends" or "estranged husbands", thus failing to achieve the romantic goals which are part of our mating and territorial instinct.

But for the most part, they are "losers" in the sense that they tried to accomplish something which the majority of people manage to accomplish, and for whatever reason, they failed.

Except that wasn't my point at all, my point was that there was considerably more to than that, that these people who not be killing anyone if we didn't live in a country where corporations treated their workers like expendable assets and the government only stepped in to help after the worker's life is beyond tatters.

I would agree that a ruthless "dog eats dog" social value system certainly does not help prevent people like this from becoming powder kegs. Mayabird's assertion that they are copying what they see on TV may not be entirely wrong, but everyone in our society is exposed to the same TV and movie programming, so there is a much stronger correlation between mass-murder and social status failure than there is between mass-murder and TV watching.

[Minischoles]

I would agree that a ruthless "dog eats dog" social value system certainly does not help prevent people like this from becoming powder kegs. Mayabird's assertion that they are copying what they see on TV may not be entirely wrong, but everyone in our society is exposed to the same TV and movie programming, so there is a much stronger correlation between mass-murder and social status failure than there is between mass-murder and TV watching.

Something like that was covered recently on a program called Newswipe, which while primarily a comedy program, it did have a piece about the media coverage of shootings like this, including with a criminal psychologist, and its been shown that the media hype around shootings like this do contribute towards more killings (expecting one or two more in a week due to the media coverage)
Link at around 7:30 is the piece with the psychologist, its very illuminating.

[Darth Wong]

I would agree that a ruthless "dog eats dog" social value system certainly does not help prevent people like this from becoming powder kegs. Mayabird's assertion that they are copying what they see on TV may not be entirely wrong, but everyone in our society is exposed to the same TV and movie programming, so there is a much stronger correlation between mass-murder and social status failure than there is between mass-murder and TV watching.

Something like that was covered recently on a program called Newswipe, which while primarily a comedy program, it did have a piece about the media coverage of shootings like this, including with a criminal psychologist, and its been shown that the media hype around shootings like this do contribute towards more killings (expecting one or two more in a week due to the media coverage)
Link at around 7:30 is the piece with the psychologist, its very illuminating.

That doesn't mean it is the strongest correlation. People like this are almost invariably people you would classify as "losers" in some way or another. They are not successful, happy people.

[Isolder74]

I agree wether or not the public is sympathetic with the killer or hates the victims does not change the fact that the killer is a loser. If someone shot up a board meeting at AIG would be no different then this shooting or any other similar shooting. The killer is still loser and a selfish jerk.

This also falls under the suicide by cop situation. They don't have the guts to shoot themselves so they dare cops to do it for them.

[Gigaliel]

Every time I see another one of these cases, I think that "some loser dude grabbing a gun and shooting a bunch of random people before killing himself" must be the latest fad. Something like this seems to be happening every day now.

When you have a national corporate climate that treats workers like shit and a minimal social safety net of course someone who's unstable to begin with is going to snap and start shooting. Dismissing it as "some loser grabbing a gun" is just a way to stick your head in the sand and ignore the root causes.

Wouldn't this imply that these kind of killings would be common in more impoverished countries, though? Do you have any examples of this? To my knowledge one man killing sprees are not that common outside the U.S.

[Darth Wong]

Every time I see another one of these cases, I think that "some loser dude grabbing a gun and shooting a bunch of random people before killing himself" must be the latest fad. Something like this seems to be happening every day now.

When you have a national corporate climate that treats workers like shit and a minimal social safety net of course someone who's unstable to begin with is going to snap and start shooting. Dismissing it as "some loser grabbing a gun" is just a way to stick your head in the sand and ignore the root causes.

Wouldn't this imply that these kind of killings would be common in more impoverished countries, though? Do you have any examples of this? To my knowledge one man killing sprees are not that common outside the U.S.

That's not how it works. One's sense of personal failure is the gulf between expectations and reality. In impoverished countries, they have different expectations.

[Straha]

Just got this in my e-mail inbox from the City of Binghamton:

The City of Binghamton this afternoon confirmed that it is aware that News10Now’s Syracuse office received a package from Jiverly Wong, the suspect in last Friday’s incident at the American Civic Association. The Binghamton Police Department now is in possession of the package, and reviewing its contents as evidence in the investigation into the incident.

We may be able to get a closer look into the psyche of the shooter in the near future.

[Straha]

Info has been leaked out. Funny that, huh, a news agency reporting the news. Anyway:

The text of his letter:

Date March 18 2009

Dear NEW TEN NOW

I am Jiverly Wong Shooting the people.

The first I want to say sorry I know a little English. I hope you understand all of this. Of course you need to know why I shooting? Because undercover cop gave me a lot of ass during eighteen years I got seven years and eight month delivery to grocery in the California came back New York on the August 2007.

Let talk about when I live in California. Such as...cop used 24 hours the technique of ultramodern and camera for burn the chemical in my house. For switch the channel time...For adjust the fan. For made me unbreathable. For made me vomit. For connect the music into my ear.

Undercover cop usual coined some nasty was not true about me and spread a rumour to the receiver and some people know me conduce toward many people predudiced and selfish to me...cop made me lost my job...cop put me became poor.

Let talk about when I live at the 28 Baker St. 2nd Floor, Johnson City, New York 13790. It terrible when I live there such as...cop wait until midnight when I off the light and went to the bed. Cop unlock my door and came in take a sit in my room ((cop did it thirteen time on the year 1994 )) on the thirteen time had three time touch me when I sleeping. One time stolen 20 dollar in my wallet. One time used electric gun shoot at the behind my neck. (That time I did not know English)

Please continue second page thank you.

Page 2

From 1990 to 1995 New York undercover cop try to get a car accident with me. Such as when I driving on the highway and on the street undercover cop sunddenly brake the car stop immediately at the of front my car...cop did it 32 time like that during 1990 to 1995 but I never hit the car.

Many time from 1990 to 1997 at the day time...cop exploit unknow English and went to my house knock the door for harass and domineer. Of course during that time cop coined something was not true about me and spread a rumour nasty like the California cop.

From August 2007 until now cop gave me not to much ass only one time cop leave a massage in my voice mail and said (( come back your country )) after five minute I send a text massage to them I said I will call the police and they send it back to me they said they are the police.

Dear New Ten Now. Right now I still get unemploment benefit of the company Shop Vac Endicott. New York State Department of Labor was cheat and unpaid from December 1st 2008 to December 28th 2008 I already claim weekly benefit from that date.

Any way I can not accepted my poor life. Before I cut my poor life I must oneself get a judge job for make an impartial with undercover cop by at least two people with me go to return to the dust of earth.

Already impartial now..cop bring about this shooting. cop must responsible. And you have a nice day.

As a friend of mine put it: "All this hunting for motive, and the motive turns out to be "he was stark raving mad." Profoundly unsatisfying -- and maybe that's what you get if you hunt for a motive."

He also, apparently, sent in his driver's license, gun license and pictures in the package.