More news about Wall Street bonuses

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Axis Kast
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by Axis Kast »

You could say the same thing about prostitution.
What has this to do with the price of milk on Monday morning?
Bullshit. We're saying "that job is way overpaid. They should be paid less". You are putting words in peoples' mouths for no intelligible reason.
The first bank to lower its offer is going to suffer an exodus of talent. So long as others' severance packages are obscene, they will continue to attract the best and the brightest.
Losing billions of dollars and driving the company into bankruptcy? Sure, I could achieve that result. My dog could achieve that result. Give me my $50 million severance package, please.
Says the individual who only moments ago denied wanting somebody else's position.

The truth is, you haven't got the skills, much less the charisma or the personal contacts, to function effectively as a banker or a university president.
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by Darth Wong »

Axis Kast wrote:
You could say the same thing about prostitution.
What has this to do with the price of milk on Monday morning?
That's a pretty ironic retort from you, considering your previous nitpickery.
Bullshit. We're saying "that job is way overpaid. They should be paid less". You are putting words in peoples' mouths for no intelligible reason.
The first bank to lower its offer is going to suffer an exodus of talent.
Canadian banks compensate less than US ones, yet they appear to have skilled personnel. They even outperformed the US ones.
So long as others' severance packages are obscene, they will continue to attract the best and the brightest.
Yes, this is the theory. Can you show that it actually happened, and that the highest-paying banks actually acquired the best personnel?
Losing billions of dollars and driving the company into bankruptcy? Sure, I could achieve that result. My dog could achieve that result. Give me my $50 million severance package, please.
Says the individual who only moments ago denied wanting somebody else's position.
Are you deliberately being stupid? I was making a rhetorical point, you dishonest little pigfucker.
The truth is, you haven't got the skills, much less the charisma or the personal contacts, to function effectively as a banker or a university president.
"Effectively?" As effectively as someone who loses billions of dollars and drives the company into bankruptcy? Bullshit.
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by erik_t »

I wasn't aware that being able to afford attendance at an expensive Ivy League institution, thereby meeting many powerful people, was a "skill".
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by Axis Kast »

That's a pretty ironic retort from you, considering your previous nitpickery.
You didn't advance your argument. In fact, you threw up what is at best a Red Herring.
Canadian banks compensate less than US ones, yet they appear to have skilled personnel. They even outperformed the US ones.
Perhaps because executives haven't been willing to cross borders in large numbers.

I'm not against rationalization of salaries. If you've got a decent plan, let's hear it.
Yes, this is the theory. Can you show that it actually happened, and that the highest-paying banks actually acquired the best personnel.
Logically, the highest-paying banks have the best chance of recruiting the best personnel. There will always be personal considerations that allow for imperfections at the top. However, if only one or two banks offer some new kind of "fair" pay scheme, do you honestly think they're going to attract the top movers-and-shakers in the field, who will be offered much more by other institutions?
Are you deliberately being stupid? I was making a rhetorical point, you dishonest little pigfucker.
You're making the same rhetorical point as the crowd I'm arguing against: implying that all bankers do is shovel money down a deep, dark drain, then collect pay for waste, fraud, and negligence. Your next response proves that you accept the argument you're not trying to distance yourself from.

Post subject: Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses Reply with quote
Axis Kast wrote:
Quote:
You could say the same thing about prostitution.

What has this to do with the price of milk on Monday morning?

That's a pretty ironic retort from you, considering your previous nitpickery.

Quote:
Quote:
Bullshit. We're saying "that job is way overpaid. They should be paid less". You are putting words in peoples' mouths for no intelligible reason.

The first bank to lower its offer is going to suffer an exodus of talent.

Canadian banks compensate less than US ones, yet they appear to have skilled personnel. They even outperformed the US ones.

Quote:
So long as others' severance packages are obscene, they will continue to attract the best and the brightest.

Yes, this is the theory. Can you show that it actually happened, and that the highest-paying banks actually acquired the best personnel?

Quote:
Quote:
Losing billions of dollars and driving the company into bankruptcy? Sure, I could achieve that result. My dog could achieve that result. Give me my $50 million severance package, please.

Says the individual who only moments ago denied wanting somebody else's position.

Are you deliberately being stupid? I was making a rhetorical point, you dishonest little pigfucker.
"Effectively?" As effectively as someone who loses billions of dollars and drives the company into bankruptcy? Bullshit.
Effectively as a bank manager or university president who makes ends meet, you weaselly piece of shit.
I wasn't aware that being able to afford attendance at an expensive Ivy League institution, thereby meeting many powerful people, was a "skill".
Being able to convince people to open their purses and give you money to build that institution further, is. Anybody called you offering a chance to steer a university fund-raising committee in the last six months?
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by Darth Wong »

Axis Kast wrote:You didn't advance your argument. In fact, you threw up what is at best a Red Herring.
Bullshit. It's completely relevant to your ridiculous argument, in which anything which you can call "a skill" is assumed to be relevant to performance.
Canadian banks compensate less than US ones, yet they appear to have skilled personnel. They even outperformed the US ones.
Perhaps because executives haven't been willing to cross borders in large numbers.

I'm not against rationalization of salaries. If you've got a decent plan, let's hear it.
"Plan"? I'm simply questioning your claim that obscene and irrational compensation schemes necessarily attract the best personnel. You have thus far provided zero evidence for it.
Yes, this is the theory. Can you show that it actually happened, and that the highest-paying banks actually acquired the best personnel.
Logically, the highest-paying banks have the best chance of recruiting the best personnel.
In other words, you have no evidence, so you simply repeat the theory.
There will always be personal considerations that allow for imperfections at the top. However, if only one or two banks offer some new kind of "fair" pay scheme, do you honestly think they're going to attract the top movers-and-shakers in the field, who will be offered much more by other institutions?
Very nice. I like the way you quietly changed the goal from "effective managers who run the bank responsibly and competently" to "top movers and shakers in the field", as if this is some kind of celebrity schmoozing contest. But of course, that's precisely what it is, isn't it? And you don't seem to think that's a problem.
Are you deliberately being stupid? I was making a rhetorical point, you dishonest little pigfucker.
You're making the same rhetorical point as the crowd I'm arguing against: implying that all bankers do is shovel money down a deep, dark drain, then collect pay for waste, fraud, and negligence.
I'm not implying it. I'm saying it, and referencing the OP which shows that this is precisely the case. Their "performance pay" is in no way tied to performance.
Your next response proves that you accept the argument you're not trying to distance yourself from.
<snip>
You just quoted the whole post without even attempting to say which part of it backs up your claim. Nowhere do I say I envy them and wish to join their ranks, you lying little asshole. Back up your claim right now.
"Effectively?" As effectively as someone who loses billions of dollars and drives the company into bankruptcy? Bullshit.
Effectively as a bank manager or university president who makes ends meet, you weaselly piece of shit.
They didn't make ends meet, you fucking liar. That's the whole goddamned point. Jesus fucking Christ, you're stupid.
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by erik_t »

Axis Kast wrote:Being able to convince people to open their purses and give you money to build that institution further, is. Anybody called you offering a chance to steer a university fund-raising committee in the last six months?
That's not what you said, you worthless tool.
AK wrote:Knowing the right people, and being charismatic, are skills. Not everybody can do that work.
Now... does going to an expensive and prestigious institution affect the people you know? Is being able to afford attendance at such an institution a "skill"?
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by aerius »

Axis Kast wrote:Why complain? Knowing the right people, and being charismatic, are skills. Not everybody can do that work. It's a "grass is greener on the other side" mentality. "Oh, gee. That job looks easy. Wish it were mine." Could you get the same results, helming a bank?
Observe the stunning charisma of former Goldman-Sachs executive and then Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Hank Paulson. Better known as "Skeletor" or "Stuttering Hank".



Fastforward to the 1:00 mark, is that confidence inspriring charisma or what?
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by Darth Wong »

Weasel Kast actually gave the game away but didn't realize it. When asked to describe what makes an effective bank executive, he immediately went straight to the same thing we've been saying: that such a person should "make ends meet".

What happened to the importance of being able to schmooze and know the right people, and how those are just as valid "skills" as the ability to manage risk and prevent financial catastrophes? Ooops!
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by Axis Kast »

Bullshit. It's completely relevant to your ridiculous argument, in which anything which you can call "a skill" is assumed to be relevant to performance.
I've been very specific about the skills for which these bankers are being paid. There are essentially three: crisis management, corporate communications, and client outreach.
"Plan"? I'm simply questioning your claim that obscene and irrational compensation schemes necessarily attract the best personnel. You have thus far provided zero evidence for it.
It's a question of demand. The company that offers millions is going to attract labor from the company that pays in tens of thousands.

If somebody offered you millions for the work you currently did, and leaving your current place of work didn't also require that you uproot your family, you'd be a fool to hold out on principle.
Very nice. I like the way you quietly changed the goal from "effective managers who run the bank responsibly and competently" to "top movers and shakers in the field", as if this is some kind of celebrity schmoozing contest. But of course, that's precisely what it is, isn't it? And you don't seem to think that's a problem.
All companies seek top talent. Some can afford only mid-range talent. Some can afford none at all. Those that can pay, do.
I'm not implying it. I'm saying it, and referencing the OP which shows that this is precisely the case. Their "performance pay" is in no way tied to performance.
No, you're saying it, and referencing an article that talks about specific bad decisions at major financial institutions. Where do you keep your money, Mike? A mattress? No. You keep it in a bank. And either that bank is reasonably sound, or you're being irresponsible with your family's future. Which is it?

My argument is that "performance pay," isn't. These people are paid according to what they are expected to do. I've agreed from the outset that those who have proven themselves ineffective ought to be fired.
You just quoted the whole post without even attempting to say which part of it backs up your claim. Nowhere do I say I envy them and wish to join their ranks, you lying little asshole. Back up your claim right now.
You just claimed that you'd be able to get the same results, given the same responsibilities. That's a bald-faced lie, but speaks clearly to the source of your anger: that somebody is doing a job you think you could do with your eyes closed, and getting handsomely rewarded in the process. You then went on to insist that all bankers do no work, but instead somehow burn up money. Finally, you've complained that nobody can legitimate question whether you could do the same work as an "effective" banker because none of the bankers mentioned in the article did good work. No True Scotsman Fallacy.
Now... does going to an expensive and prestigious institution affect the people you know? Is being able to afford attendance at such an institution a "skill"?
This is only further proof that you've got not the slightest gasp of what you're talking about. "Knowing" somebody in the business world isn't the same thing as having something in common with them. These people don't fill Rolodexes or address books based on the fact that they all went to Harvard -- they didn't all go to Harvard. Going to an expensive and prestigious institution may affect the people you know. So may living in an urban area. So may chance.

University presidents are not administrators as much as fund-raisers. Their job is to ensure that the university endowment rises. Bankers are hired in part based on a judgment of how many new investors they might be able to inspire.
What happened to the importance of being able to schmooze and know the right people, and how those are just as valid "skills" as the ability to manage risk and prevent financial catastrophes? Ooops!
MSNBC ran an article on this just the other afternoon. Regardless of "should" or "would" or "could" or "ideal," people earn jobs with a resume long on practical experience and educational merit and promotions based on their personality type.

I am not suggesting that it is reasonable to hire somebody based only on confidence in how they will handle the media, or whether they might be able to dial the "right" numbers into an iPhone. However, it is a consideration that takes place in our world. It's reality - something people on this board often have trouble recognizing. It explains why a certain kind of executive is highly sought after.
Weasel Kast actually gave the game away but didn't realize it. When asked to describe what makes an effective bank executive, he immediately went straight to the same thing we've been saying: that such a person should "make ends meet".
You've repeatedly insisted that you could be a successful banker - based on a comparison with those who only lost money. That's not only dishonest, it's farcical.
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by aerius »

I like how "top level talent" translates to "lost more fucking money than any of the broad market indices". Again, anyone with half a brain can invest in the Vanguard 500 or any other similar index fund and outperform these so-called highly talented geniuses. And you don't even need a human to run these funds, all you need is a computer which can automatically do the index weightings based on the market cap of the S&P 500 companies.
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by Axis Kast »

I like how "top level talent" translates to "lost more fucking money than any of the broad market indices". Again, anyone with half a brain can invest in the Vanguard 500 or any other similar index fund and outperform these so-called highly talented geniuses. And you don't even need a human to run these funds, all you need is a computer which can automatically do the index weightings based on the market cap of the S&P 500 companies.
I like how we get to put words in other people's mouths.

"Top talent" is characterized by a set of skills. It is a broad selections of individuals who may be fit for doing bankers' work. Sometimes, people billed as top talent, aren't.

I'm not expressing opinion, but fact. Why do bankers make so much? Why do university administrators make so much? Why do fundraisers make so much? Because they are assessed to possess certain qualities - rare ones - that result in the making of millions more than even they themselves collect.
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by aerius »

Go look at the fucking video of Hank Paulson. He's a fucking stuttering idiot, and you're going to tell me that I can't find millions of people who can do his fucking job?
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by Axis Kast »

Peppering your post with a fistful of invective does not change the fact that you've just asked me whether or not I could find you millions of Americans qualified to be the Secretary of the Treasury.
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by aerius »

Hank Paulson is a stuttering moron who doesn't inspire confidence, doesn't know what the hell he's talking about, and can't even lie properly to Congress. The guy's a complete incompetant and yet he was a senior executive at Goldman-Sachs. Get a clue, millions of Americans could do his job better than he can. He's not special, unless by special you mean special needs, as in retarded. Like you.

Oh yeah, did I mention that GS, which is an investment bank is losing money on its investing activities despite a massive runup in the stock markets? And you're telling me these people are somehow talented, special, and hard to find? A goddamn monkey could get the same results.
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by Simon_Jester »

Axis Kast wrote:All companies seek top talent. Some can afford only mid-range talent. Some can afford none at all. Those that can pay, do.
Ah... why, then, did companies that were definitely paying top dollar crash and burn? If paying top dollar is the best way to attract top talent, then you'd expect companies who pay their executives massive salaries to do better than companies that don't. Is that what we actually see? If not, why not?

If it were a few specific individuals, that would not be surprising- hire 100 executives with shiny resumes, and at least some of them will turn out to be idiots who got lucky. That's to be expected. But we're looking at an industry-wide collapse. It's not a case of one company hiring a few ineffective people at vast salaries and failing relative to other companies who paid effective people equally vast salaries.

If there's a strong correlation between offering high salaries and attracting good talent, that shouldn't happen.
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by Dominus Atheos »

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet.
CBS News wrote:Bank Bonuses Far Exceeded Profits

Several financial giants that received federal bailout money in the last year paid out bonuses to employees in 2008 that greatly exceeded the amount of profit generated by the banks, according to a study on executive compensation released by New York State Attorney General Andrew Cuomo Thursday.

Despite claims by bank executives that bonuses are tied to the company's performance, the report states that "there is no clear rhyme or reason to how the banks compensate or reward their employees."

Cuomo's investigation "suggests a disconnect between compensation and bank performance that resulted in a 'heads I win, tails you lose' bonus system."

According to the report:

• Goldman Sachs, which earned $2.3 billion last year and received $10 billion in TARP funding, paid out $4.8 billion in bonuses in 2008 - more than double their net income.

• Morgan Stanley, which earned $1.7 billion last year and received $10 billion in bailout funds, handed out $4.475 billion in bonuses, nearly three times their net income.

• JPMorgan Chase, which earned $5.6 billion in 2008 and received $25 billion from the government, paid out $8.69 billion in bonus money.

• Citigroup and Merrill Lynch lost a combined $54 billion last year. They received a total of $55 billion in bailouts and paid out $9 billion in combined bonuses. ($5.33 billion for Citigroup; $3.6 billion for Merrill Lynch, which was subsequently acquired by Bank of America.)
To sum up: the money for these bonuses came fully from the bailouts, I.E: your taxpayer dollars. :banghead:
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by Stark »

Come on, DA. That's just sour grapes. After all, these corps were paying for top talent, which is why they performed so well!

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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by J »

But Stark, the bank executives fully deserve those bonuses since they were smart enough to con the government into giving them countless billions in free money! Isn't that a talent worth paying for?
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by mr friendly guy »

Axis Kast wrote:
If somebody offered you millions for the work you currently did, and leaving your current place of work didn't also require that you uproot your family, you'd be a fool to hold out on principle.
Yeah, but I don't have to be among the best of my profession to want the extra money. One could be mediocre at their job and still want the extra money. All you have shown is that giving more money attracts more people. Whoopee doo. Now can you actually show it also attracts the best people as well? But I wouldn't hold my breath, because you are going to dodge the point as per usual.
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by Stark »

J wrote:But Stark, the bank executives fully deserve those bonuses since they were smart enough to con the government into giving them countless billions in free money! Isn't that a talent worth paying for?
Certainly; the individuals responsible should be given more than 10% of the federal funds they scammed to encourage further such activities in the future. This is banking reform at work!
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by Axis Kast »

Hank Paulson is a stuttering moron who doesn't inspire confidence, doesn't know what the hell he's talking about, and can't even lie properly to Congress. The guy's a complete incompetant and yet he was a senior executive at Goldman-Sachs. Get a clue, millions of Americans could do his job better than he can. He's not special, unless by special you mean special needs, as in retarded. Like you.
Resorting to ad hominem argument does not a sound position establish. You have merely given me your opinion of Hank Paulson. Now you expect to get away with implying that his standard of performance is somehow the new qualification for that post.
Oh yeah, did I mention that GS, which is an investment bank is losing money on its investing activities despite a massive runup in the stock markets? And you're telling me these people are somehow talented, special, and hard to find? A goddamn monkey could get the same results.
Evidently, given the current state of both the economy and the financial sector, they are hard to find.

Let me ask you another question. Where do you keep your money? If the answer is, "A bank," then obviously the job description of "banker" isn't just, "Somebody who shovels cash down holes," for if it is, you are a fucking idiot.
Ah... why, then, did companies that were definitely paying top dollar crash and burn? If paying top dollar is the best way to attract top talent, then you'd expect companies who pay their executives massive salaries to do better than companies that don't. Is that what we actually see? If not, why not?
Attracting top-billed talent does not automatically ensure success; it is merely a predictor. This is especially true when systemic or structural irregularities in the market affected everyone across the board, some worse than others. Successful companies often do pay top dollar, by the way; you're drawing comparisons between giants when you should instead be looking at the differences between a member of the Fortune 500 and just about everyone else.

Yeah, but I don't have to be among the best of my profession to want the extra money. One could be mediocre at their job and still want the extra money. All you have shown is that giving more money attracts more people. Whoopee doo. Now can you actually show it also attracts the best people as well? But I wouldn't hold my breath, because you are going to dodge the point as per usual.
A firm that can offer more money can play headhunter. It will also get more consideration when an individual contemplates career options.

The argument is perfectly sound, and works by the same logic which dictates that larger schools that can afford to hold mass try-outs for a single team will tend to perform better than smaller institutions that must play every child out of desperation - most of the time.
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by aerius »

Axis Kast wrote:Resorting to ad hominem argument does not a sound position establish. You have merely given me your opinion of Hank Paulson. Now you expect to get away with implying that his standard of performance is somehow the new qualification for that post.
Bite me. You claimed that those banking execs required special skills, charisma, and all that other special hard to find crap.
That video shows that it's clearly false.
Oh yeah, did I mention that GS, which is an investment bank is losing money on its investing activities despite a massive runup in the stock markets? And you're telling me these people are somehow talented, special, and hard to find? A goddamn monkey could get the same results.
Evidently, given the current state of both the economy and the financial sector, they are hard to find.
You're a special kind of stupid aren't you? You got tens to hundreds of thousands of banking execs, and they all managed to lose money in a equity, bond, and commodity market runup. Everything except currency is up right now compared to the beginning of the year, and they all lost money. Yeah, you're right, it's hard to find people who are that fucking stupid and incompetant.
Let me ask you another question. Where do you keep your money? If the answer is, "A bank," then obviously the job description of "banker" isn't just, "Somebody who shovels cash down holes," for if it is, you are a fucking idiot.
Here in Canada, our banks actually turn a profit without government bailouts. If I lived in the US I would have a minimal amount of money in the bank, the vast majority would be parked in T-bills, commodities, and FRNs in pillowcases. Because the banks are fucking broke and so's the FDIC.
Yeah, but I don't have to be among the best of my profession to want the extra money. One could be mediocre at their job and still want the extra money. All you have shown is that giving more money attracts more people. Whoopee doo. Now can you actually show it also attracts the best people as well? But I wouldn't hold my breath, because you are going to dodge the point as per usual.
A firm that can offer more money can play headhunter. It will also get more consideration when an individual contemplates career options.

The argument is perfectly sound, and works by the same logic which dictates that larger schools that can afford to hold mass try-outs for a single team will tend to perform better than smaller institutions that must play every child out of desperation - most of the time.
Uh-huh. So that's why the largest banks, meaning those with the most money and the ability to pay the highest salary and hire the "best" people, are the ones which are losing the most money on a gross and percentage basis. WaMu, Wachovia, and Countrywide are history, JPM, Bank of America, Wells-Fargo and Citigroup are all taking massive losses and if their assets were marked at fair market value they'd be in the hole by $500 billion or so. Hell, take the 20 largest banks in the US and they're all insolvent if we use fair market value GAAP accounting on them.
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J
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by J »

Clearly, Axis Kast believes this article word for word, and doesn't realize it's a satire.
Bashing Goldman Sachs Is Simply a Game for Fools: Michael Lewis

Commentary by Michael Lewis

July 28 (Bloomberg) -- From the moment I left Yale and started working for Goldman Sachs, I’ve felt uneasy interacting with those who don’t.

It’s not that I think less of Goldman outsiders than I did while I remained among you. It’s just that I feel your envy, and know that nothing I can do or say will ever persuade you that I am no more than human.

Thus, like many of my colleagues, I have adopted a strategy of never leaving Goldman Sachs, apart from a few brief, spasmodic attempts to make what you outsiders call “love” or “the beast with two backs.” Goldman recognizes how important it is for its people to replicate themselves. We bill no performance fees for the service.

Today, the sheer volume of irresponsible media commentary has forced us to reconsider our public-relations strategy. With every uptick in our share price it’s grown clearer that we who are inside Goldman Sachs must open a dialogue with you who are not. Not for our benefit, but for yours.

America stands at a crossroads, and Goldman Sachs now owns both of them. In choosing which road to take, ordinary Americans must not be distracted by unproductive resentment toward the toll-takers. To that end we at Goldman Sachs would like to dispel several false and insidious rumors.

Rumor No. 1: “Goldman Sachs controls the U.S. government.”

Every time we hear the phrase “the United States of Goldman Sachs” we shake our heads in wonder. Every ninth-grader knows that the U.S. government consists of three branches. Goldman owns just one of these outright; the second we simply rent, and the third we have no interest in at all. (Note there isn’t a single former Goldman employee on the Supreme Court.)

What small interest we maintain in the U.S. government is, we feel, in the public interest. Our current financial crisis has its roots in a single easily identifiable source: the envy others felt toward Goldman Sachs.

The bozos at Merrill Lynch, the dimwits at Citigroup, the nimrods at Lehman Brothers, the louts at Bear Stearns, even that momentarily useful lunatic Joe Cassano at AIG -- all of these people took risks that no non-Goldman person should ever take, in a pathetic attempt to replicate Goldman’s financial returns.

For too long we have allowed others to emulate us. Now we are working productively with Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner and the Congress to ensure that we alone are allowed to take the sort of risks that might destroy the financial system.


Rumor No. 2: “When the U.S. government bailed out AIG, and paid off its gambling debts, it saved not AIG but Goldman Sachs.”

The charge isn’t merely insulting but ignorant. Less responsible journalists continue to bring up the $12.9 billion we received from AIG, as if that was some kind of big deal to us. But as our CFO David Viniar explained back in March, we were hedged. Our profits from AIG “rounded to zero.”

People who don’t work at Goldman Sachs, of course, find this implausible: How could $12.9 billion round to zero? Easy, but you just need to understand the mathematics.

Let’s assume AIG transferred $12,880,560,250.34 of taxpayer money to Goldman Sachs. A Goldman outsider, asked to round this number, might call it $12,880,560,250.00. That’s not how we look at it; at Goldman we always round to the nearest $50 billion, so anything less than $25 billion rounds to zero.

Think of it that way and you can see that $12,880,560,250.34 isn’t even close to not rounding to zero.

Rumor No. 3: “As the U.S. government will eat the losses if Goldman Sachs goes bust, Goldman Sachs shouldn’t be allowed to keep making these massive financial bets. At the very least the $11.4 billion Goldman Sachs already has set aside for employees in 2009 -- $386,429 a head, just for the first six months -- is unfair, as the U.S. taxpayer has borne so much of the risk of the wagers that generated the profits.”

Really, we don’t know where to begin with this one. It is wrong-headed in so many different ways!

Let’s begin with the idea that the taxpayer is running a bigger risk than we are. The billions he stands to lose are trivial; after all, they round to zero.

The real risk, when you think about it even for a minute, is the risk we take ourselves: that Goldman will cease to exist and we will cease to be Goldman employees. To flirt with such tragedy we obviously need to be paid.

Rumor No. 4: “Goldman employees all look alike.”

Several recent newspaper photos have revealed that a surprising number of Goldman Sachs workers are white, male and bald. That non-Goldman people glance at such photos and think “Holy crap, they even look alike!” just shows how deeply anti- Goldman bigotry runs in American life.

We at Goldman represent unique clusters of DNA; if we bear some faint surface resemblance to one another, and to creatures from the 24th century, it is only because our superior powers of reasoning lead us to hold in our minds exactly the same thoughts, at exactly the same time.

A shared disinterest in growing hair, for instance, isn’t a coincidence of nature but an expression of healthy like- mindedness.

“The world is a pool table,” our naked-headed CEO likes to tell us. “And all the people in it are either stripes or solids. You alone are the cue balls.”

Rumor No. 5: Goldman Sachs is “a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money.”

Those words are of course taken from a recent issue of Rolling Stone magazine and they are transparently false.

For starters, the vampire squid doesn’t feed on human flesh. Ergo, no vampire squid would ever wrap itself around the face of humanity, except by accident. And nothing that happens at Goldman Sachs -- nothing that Goldman Sachs thinks, nothing that Goldman Sachs feels, nothing that Goldman Sachs does --ever happens by accident.
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Rye
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by Rye »

It's weird. Kast's remarks look like those of a Marxist; bankers are parasites getting ludicrously rich off everyone else's labour by being born into privilege and generally knowing other people from those circles. They're apparently really "working hard" because they're sometimes charismatic and phone the right people, shuffling money around and taking a big wedge of it for themselves, and generally putting themselves ahead of everyone their decisions harm. Yet he also says this isn't a bad thing. How queer.

From what I gather, banking, investment and such is a mixture of ruthlessness and luck. Actual "skill" in these matters wouldn't be required on the level of say, a doctor, and there are negligent doctors found out every year. Doctors have clinical assessment, i.e. quality control, what do bankers have? A load of them may just be there on luck, fortuitous economic conditions having prevented their competition from getting there first, rather than getting there because they're better than anyone else. Mix this in with a "moral hazard" like giving bonuses to people regardless of how well they do... my God, what are you doing?!
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Re: More news about Wall Street bonuses

Post by Simon_Jester »

Rye wrote:It's weird. Kast's remarks look like those of a Marxist; bankers are parasites getting ludicrously rich off everyone else's labour by being born into privilege and generally knowing other people from those circles. They're apparently really "working hard" because they're sometimes charismatic and phone the right people, shuffling money around and taking a big wedge of it for themselves, and generally putting themselves ahead of everyone their decisions harm. Yet he also says this isn't a bad thing. How queer.
I think the key to this concept is that while high-level bankers are parasites, they are valuable parasites, who can (theoretically) give back more to the company than they take in bonuses and massive salaries. Therefore, it is actually in your interest to keep some of these elite super-leeches around.

It's not that their work is uniquely difficult, it's that they're the only ones who can actually do it, because they're the only ones with the contacts and the knack for reassuring wealthy investors. Even if it's easier than, say, building brick walls, it doesn't matter, because no bricklayer will be able to do the job of an investment banker...
From what I gather, banking, investment and such is a mixture of ruthlessness and luck. Actual "skill" in these matters wouldn't be required on the level of say, a doctor, and there are negligent doctors found out every year. Doctors have clinical assessment, i.e. quality control, what do bankers have? A load of them may just be there on luck, fortuitous economic conditions having prevented their competition from getting there first, rather than getting there because they're better than anyone else. Mix this in with a "moral hazard" like giving bonuses to people regardless of how well they do... my God, what are you doing?!
...aand the above idea starts to break down at this point.

Management of human institutions has a nasty habit of failing to distinguish between success (or failure) due to talent and success (or failure) due to luck. The banking industry has been very vulnerable to this bad habit. By blaming the failure of their system on luck and 'the economy' and not on the actual bankers, they justify a truly demented incentive structure.
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