Polish pop star faces two years’ prison for blasphemy

[PeZook]

It really is a shame IMO considering the general situation of Poland. If there is a country in Eastern Europe that one would wish got it together and stop embarrassing itself, it would be Poland. It is not as if they are in a bad position from profiting from the EU - they are almost the only real gateway to Russia and Belarus. I really hope there is a change soon.

Change is happening, albeit slowly (much slower than I'd prefer, that's certain) and as usual there is considerable backlash - like people screaming about evil Russia shooting down airplanes full of Polish dignitaries or retards thinking we should be "tough" in our international politics.

Pezook, how is the perception among young poles regarding their country? The ones I met so far were intensely nationalistic and tried very hard to prove to me their country's superiority to Germany. Is there a difference nowadays?

That's an interesting question, and I don't think I can reasonably answer it (plural of anectode not being data and all )

One thing I can certainy say is that patriotism is fashionable now. Lots of people like to display their patriotic pride and it's not necessarily a bad thing, but people being people, some tend to take it to the extreme, like in my above example: Poland could do no wrong, we were always victims, Germans are evil and became rich at our expense, etc.

I haven't met any really hardcore nationalists, but they certainly exist. Also, there has been a recent resurgence of religiosity and 95% of all Poles declare themselves members of the catholic church - strangely, the number remains stable for years, while before there was certain decline. I'm not sure why, though.

Religion is really big in public life, and so is patriotism, with various holidays and special events (yearly re-enactment of the Battle Of Grunwald, lots of historical reconstructions, etc.). I can't give you a more concrete answer than that, sadly.

[Big Orange]

Some of the Polish people that came into the UK in recent years had an insensitive attitude to non-whites, which does not surprise me considering how culturally long isolated Poland was, although that doesn't stop them from being on the receiving end of racist abuse in the rougher parts of the UK.

And Poland trying to be the "hardman" of Eastern Europe worked out so-well for the country and it people the first time round in the 1930s. And not only were there years of pogroms against Polish Jews without the direct influence of the Nazi Germans, the Polish police and military took out their frustrations on the Polish Germans within the Polish border, during the 1939 September invasion, with thousands abused and killed (an event known as Bloody Sunday).

[PeZook]

And Poland trying to be the "hardman" of Eastern Europe worked out so-well for the country and it people the first time round in the 1930s. And not only were there years of pogroms against Polish Jews without the direct influence of the Nazi Germans, the Polish police and military took out their frustrations on the Polish Germans within the Polish border, during the 1939 September invasion, with thousands abused and killed (an event known as Bloody Sunday).

Uh, wait...are you saying the 1939 invasion was a result of Poland playing the "hardman" (whatever that means) of Eastern Europe?

What?

[Thanas]

Uh, wait...are you saying the 1939 invasion was a result of Poland playing the "hardman" (whatever that means) of Eastern Europe?

What?

I think he means the well-documented cases of Poland trying to grab German and Soviet territory, as well the French building up Poland to force Germany into a two-front war.

[PeZook]

I think he means the well-documented cases of Poland trying to grab German and Soviet territory, as well the French building up Poland to force Germany into a two-front war.

Probably, but how does this tie into "working out so well"? What possible strategy Poland could've taken to avoid either being invaded by Germany or steamrolled by the USSR?

It's not like France forced Poland into an antagonistic course, and Germany was hardly rearming itself so vastly just to counter Poland's territorial ambitions ; Hitler's intentions were pretty obvious from the moment he took power, and frankly: nobody gave a shit about some tiny vicious war in Prussia, as long as they had a convenient bloodpit for the Wehrmacht.

The geopolitical situation is very different now, and in the context of today, you could say antagonizing both our most powerful neighbors because of old feuds is supremely stupid and serves no purpose, but that's because those neighbors are not the dickheads they were seventy years ago.

[Thanas]

I think he means the well-documented cases of Poland trying to grab German and Soviet territory, as well the French building up Poland to force Germany into a two-front war.

Probably, but how does this tie into "working out so well"? What possible strategy Poland could've taken to avoid either being invaded by Germany or steamrolled by the USSR?

You are correct that by the time Hitler and Stalin had both consolidated their power, Poland could do nothing. Both were bloodthirsty sociopaths who wanted more territory.

However, Poland had tried way before both came to power to aggressively expand its borders. The Polish-Soviet war, the Polish-Ukrainian war and the undeclared war between Germany and Poland in Eastern Prussia and Silesia....let's face it, Poland was no better than its neighbors in the 1920s, it tried to play at war to expand its borders and in the end, got nothing but hostility from it.

It's not like France forced Poland into an antagonistic course

No, Poland was quite happy to take that course by itself in the 1920s, and was also quite happy to profit from Hitler's aggression against Czechoslowakia.

, and Germany was hardly rearming itself so vastly just to counter Poland's territorial ambitions ; Hitler's intentions were pretty obvious from the moment he took power

Agreed.

, and frankly: nobody gave a shit about some tiny vicious war in Prussia

Well, the German generals did because a large fraction of them came from Eastern Prussia.

The geopolitical situation is very different now, and in the context of today, you could say antagonizing both our most powerful neighbors because of old feuds is supremely stupid and serves no purpose,

Agreed in full.

but that's because those neighbors are not the dickheads they were seventy years ago.

Meh. Back then all nations were dickheads and Poland was a military dictatorship that was more than happy to expand at the expense of its neighbours.

[PeZook]

You are correct that by the time Hitler and Stalin had both consolidated their power, Poland could do nothing. Both were bloodthirsty sociopaths who wanted more territory.

It was that, and also the whole thing with being bitter over losing territorry annexed during the 1794 partitioning.

However, Poland had tried way before both came to power to aggressively expand its borders. The Polish-Soviet war, the Polish-Ukrainian war and the undeclared war between Germany and Poland in Eastern Prussia and Silesia....let's face it, Poland was no better than its neighbors in the 1920s, it tried to play at war to expand its borders and in the end, got nothing but hostility from it.

Conflict with Russia and Germany was pretty much inevitable from the start: Poland set upon itself an impossible objective (recover all pre-1772 territories), and both powers would gladly erase the uppity, agressive neighbor from their territories if they could.

I seriously doubt a less agressive Poland could avoid war with either or both its neighbors: if anything, public opinion was too dead set on recovering old glory: hence the 1920-1921 war, the undeclared war in Eastern Prussia and the Polish-Ukrainian war. On the other hand, Hitler had little trouble selling the war against Poland for the same reasons.

No, Poland was quite happy to take that course by itself in the 1920s, and was also quite happy to profit from Hitler's aggression against Czechoslowakia.

Yeah, hard to argue here. Though I wouldn't even call it "profitting". Seriously. Zaolzie? Jesus christ, I facepalmed myself even back in high school when I first heard about that stupid little feud with a potential strategic ally.

Well, the German generals did because a large fraction of them came from Eastern Prussia.

Duh. Of course the Germans cared, but the rest of Europe didn't give a shit

Meh. Back then all nations were dickheads and Poland was a military dictatorship that was more than happy to expand at the expense of its neighbours.

Hard to argue. Dreams of imperial glory + hot-headed impatience + nationalism. An explosive combination

Funny thing...for all his talk about building a Central European coalition, Pilsudski did surprisingly little to actually take steps towards this goal.

[Thanas]

Conflict with Russia and Germany was pretty much inevitable from the start: Poland set upon itself an impossible objective (recover all pre-1772 territories), and both powers would gladly erase the uppity, agressive neighbor from their territories if they could.

I seriously doubt a less agressive Poland could avoid war with either or both its neighbors: if anything, public opinion was too dead set on recovering old glory: hence the 1920-1921 war, the undeclared war in Eastern Prussia and the Polish-Ukrainian war. On the other hand, Hitler had little trouble selling the war against Poland for the same reasons.

I disagree. Had Poland not started these wars, there would have been a perfect opportunity to leave the French sphere and ally with Germany following the diplomatic isolation of Germany in the early twenties. Stresemann was so very much looking for allies that he was even willing to do so with the Soviet Union (Rapallo), which was the very scarecrow in Germany. Thus, if Poland had been a more democratic and less aggressive state, it could very well have made a reconciliation treaty with Germany and there might have been peace in the east, because Poland and Germany together would have been strong enough to blockade the Soviets.

[Thanas]

Ghetto edit:

Of course this is with the benefit of hindsight and would require a high level of trust between those nations.

[PeZook]

I disagree. Had Poland not started these wars, there would have been a perfect opportunity to leave the French sphere and ally with Germany following the diplomatic isolation of Germany in the early twenties.

This would've been political suicide, or at least really, really difficult to pull off. Remember that in the early twenties, Poland was still less than a decade old, and spent almost two centuries under partial occupation by Prussia. That's one of the major reasons for the irrational distrust of Germany, and it's not like politicians could ignore it.

On the other hand, France had traditionally been close, and a sizeable Polish immigrant community formed there. Some national heroes studies in French universities, and of course the country was naturally opposed to Germany.

I'm not saying allying with Germany was impossible, or that the various territorial wars were a good idea, but there were very good reasons, from the perspective of contemporary politicians, to stay within the French sphere - or at least take whatever money they were willing to hand out because of the perceived threat from Germany.

Stresemann was so very much looking for allies that he was even willing to do so with the Soviet Union (Rapallo), which was the very scarecrow in Germany. Thus, if Poland had been a more democratic and less aggressive state, it could very well have made a reconciliation treaty with Germany and there might have been peace in the east, because Poland and Germany together would have been strong enough to blockade the Soviets.

A reconcillation treaty was probably more within a realm of possibility, agreed - much easier to sell than an outright alliance, though there were non-insignificant political forces which favored closer ties with Russia. And, of course, those favoring tying with Germany were sometimes borderline fascists themselves - Pilsudski was pretty vile with his imperialist ambitions and outright blunders, but some of his political opponents were more like Mussolini.

[Thanas]

Stresemann was so very much looking for allies that he was even willing to do so with the Soviet Union (Rapallo), which was the very scarecrow in Germany. Thus, if Poland had been a more democratic and less aggressive state, it could very well have made a reconciliation treaty with Germany and there might have been peace in the east, because Poland and Germany together would have been strong enough to blockade the Soviets.

A reconcillation treaty was probably more within a realm of possibility, agreed - much easier to sell than an outright alliance, though there were non-insignificant political forces which favored closer ties with Russia.

That sounds a bit more irrational to me - after all Russia occupied much more of Poland than Prussia ever did and also had way more repressive politics.

That said, if the Soviet Union, which had previously not only helped communist uprisings in Germany, but also had previously annnounced its intention to invade Germany, and France could be brought to the table, I see no reason why Poland could not have been brought to the table as well had there been an effort.

[General Mung Beans]

So this is isn't just a law that forgot to be repealed? If so this is a bad embarssment for Poland.

[PeZook]

That sounds a bit more irrational to me - after all Russia occupied much more of Poland than Prussia ever did and also had way more repressive politics.

It varied with the particular time period...but what counts is the perceptions at the time we're talking about, and there was no significant difference between perceptions of Prussian and Russian occupations, save that both were pretty damn bad.

Ultimately, there were people who wanted to steer Poland closer to Germany, too. It was a big political issue at the time, and neither managed to catch on. Probably because of public sentiment.

That said, if the Soviet Union, which had previously not only helped communist uprisings in Germany, but also had previously annnounced its intention to invade Germany, and France could be brought to the table, I see no reason why Poland could not have been brought to the table as well had there been an effort.

Perhaps. You'd need to start real early, though, removing Pilsudski from politics at the least, and I'm not sure democracy would be the most conductive system to the idea.