Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppression!

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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Zed »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:
Zed wrote: It's intentionally hyperbolic exasperation speech like that which gives the theocrats more and more ammunition to claim they're being oppressed.
Good for them, but I don't think you can exactly starve these people out of ammunition. The simple fact that they are becoming so outraged over non-offenses like these goes to show that they can manufacture their own on a whim, and it will be revoking their special privileges in society that will get us somewhere with them, not bending over backwards to avoid saying anything they'd dislike.
I suspect you're right about the fact that you can't starve the extremists out of ammunition - but it creates a bad reputation for their opponents, which can have an impact on more moderate Christians. I prefer to keep as many Christians as possible away from sympathizing with fundamentalist groups like these. (And I also like to feel better than them, by not stooping to their level in the hyperbole.)

Intentionally hyperbolic speech also serves as an enabler for people who are serious about such opinions. And they apparently exist, as Alyrium Denryle just illustrates.
I agree that it enables. You'll also agree that the people it's enabling are a comically tiny minority who are in a position to do absolutely bupkis. Christians are not homosexuals or transsexuals; they're not overpowered and outnumbered by hatemongers who just need the tiniest bit of encouragement from enabling comments.
You have a point, but feelings like these can start relatively small before they grow and spread throughout a society. I prefer to keep them at bay from the start by preventing even the fringe from feeling comfortable enough to propagate their nonsense.
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

In an ideal world, we'd have everyone see these people for what they truly are, and shun their kind until they literally die off, or form some clique gated community far from the world at large. Unfortunately, these people are a fairly prominent force in the US, and until their indoctrination vanishes (doubtful for now) or they get Raptured, they'll be there, ever ready, to grind that axe over the smallest of slights against their ideals.
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Zed wrote:I suspect you're right about the fact that you can't starve the extremists out of ammunition - but it creates a bad reputation for their opponents, which can have an impact on more moderate Christians. I prefer to keep as many Christians as possible away from sympathizing with fundamentalist groups like these.
Who cares? Biotech and the acceptance of evolution it requires is going to become even hotter shit in the coming decades, meaning that the more moderates there are playing defense for fundies and trying to make some kind of golden mean bullshit agreement between the two sides there are, the more protracted this culture war will be. I don't want a protracted culture war. I don't want people to see "faith" in intercessory supernatural powers as a virtue, even well-meaning moderates, so that they'd consider placing a crucifix over a bathroom wall an adequate solution to the problem of dangerous wiring running near the water pipes.
(And I also like to feel better than them, by not stooping to their level in the hyperbole.)
Same here, but sometimes exasperation happens.
You have a point, but feelings like these can start relatively small before they grow and spread throughout a society. I prefer to keep them at bay from the start by preventing even the fringe from feeling comfortable enough to propagate their nonsense.
Probably, but I think it's safe for now to just chalk this one up to exasperation given the gulf of time it'd take for enabling to be a serious problem.
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Covenant »

You should never back down or play nice with people who are motivated and organized for the purpose of harming others over a bit of fiction, and this is not the only issue that they take up which causes that kind of very real harm. I think there's room for hyperbole, sarcasm and irony when making light of some of these incredibly out-of-whack claims forwarded by the 'oppressed' bigoted majority, but while I don't fault anyone for making them, even privately harboring these kinds of violent thoughts are bad and certainly below the measure of a person driven by a goal-oriented rational thought

The right falls on the whining excuse of mean ol' liberals not understanding, and it's bullshit, but for entirely different and unrelated reasons you shouldn't talk about crucifying people. Internet Tough Guy talk about backing over someone with a car or feeding them to their weight in fireants is frowned upon for good reason.

I think the "Come crying to me about oppression when people are going around raising money by saying they'll kick you back into the closet" kinds of comparisons are fair, but saying "We should club these people so they'll know what oppression feels like" is lousy to say. Frustration is fine, but don't be a wackjob about it.

As mad as these people make me, I don't want to batter them to prove a point about being morally superior and less judgmental. We've got no reason to really care what they say on such things, and I don't give a shit about their opinion or what they think I think (since they'll think I'm an evil scheming person regardless) but as was said, I wouldn't want even real criminals to be tortured and treated inhumanely, so I wouldn't advocate harsher treatment for the people whose crime is an abhorrent political philosophy.
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Psychic_Sandwich »

So I think it's going to take more than an overall mainstream cultural acceptance to get the fundies in line with progressives when it comes to LGBT rights.
They'll never 'fall into line.' What will happen is that they'll become increasingly isolated from everybody else, appear more and more like insane, frothing lunatics and therefore become more and more marginalised, impotent and ignored unless they adapt their dogma to a changing society. Religion changes with culture, not the other way around, and they can either change or become irrelevant.
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Serafina »

Channel72 wrote:The Christian right doesn't have much of a choice other than to complain, if they want to remain true to their religion. LGBT issues are really troublesome for them, because deviating from heterosexuality is one "sin" that mainstream society not only tolerates, but is actually beginning to celebrate. Sure, the fundies also complain about pornography, violence, indecency in the media and all that - but none of these things are actually celebrated or explicitly endorsed by the government. Until now, the government hasn't really begun to actually explicitly celebrate homosexuality either.
Bollocks.
They also ignore it when people wear clothes made out of two different kinds of cloth, if you plant more than one plant on a field or eat shellfish.

They simply have their own issues with homosexuality and use the bible to justify them.
Not every christian might have them, but you can rest assured that childhood indoctrination is not doing that any good.
In fact, the whole LGBT civil rights issue is interesting, because it's one area where it's almost impossible to "reinterpret" away the Biblical position on homosexuality. With former civil rights issues, it wasn't always as clear what the Bible actually said regarding the matter, and so the Christian right was eventually able to grudgingly fall in line with mainstream progressives.
They managed to do so with slavery, too - or do you see any christians who lament that the days of slavery are over?
Is such a position accepted in mainstream christianity?
For example, there's nothing in the Bible that explicitly says Africans are somehow inferior, (unless you really stretch Genesis 9:24). Even interracial marriage is easy to justify on Biblical grounds, considering the ban on interracial marriage in the Old Testament applied to a specific historical situation, and could easily be interpreted as not being universally applicable. But with homosexuality, there's really no wiggle room. The ban on homosexuality is simply too clear, in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Sure, people argue that the prohibitions in Leviticus apply only to temple prostitution or what have you, or that the Greek in the New Testament doesn't necessarily refer to homosexuality. But these arguments are generally quite debatable and very involved, and they don't do much to dispel the overall notion of marriage as a sacred institution between man and woman originating with Adam and Eve.
Again - they managed to do so with other things, why should it be impossible with homosexuality?

Indeed, quite a lot of christians i know do so very sucessfully and have no problem with christianity.
Of course, they are quite liberal even for european christians - but they do exist.
So I think it's going to take more than an overall mainstream cultural acceptance to get the fundies in line with progressives when it comes to LGBT rights.
Not necessarily. Enough pressure from the public would be enough.
If discrimination based on sexual orientation becomes as unacceptable as discrimnation based on race, christians would stop doing it in a generation or two.
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Samuel »

To give an example of reinterpreting, look at Iran. Islamic Republic that is okay with transexuals because it has decided the soul ended up in the wrong body. They still hate gays, but that is a step ahead of being against all LGBTs.
LGBT issues are really troublesome for them, because deviating from heterosexuality is one "sin" that mainstream society not only tolerates, but is actually beginning to celebrate. Sure, the fundies also complain about pornography, violence, indecency in the media and all that - but none of these things are actually celebrated or explicitly endorsed by the government.
Heh, this reminds me of the civ 5 fanatics discussion board. Someone was advocating adding porn as a resource and when someone objected on the grounds it would be wrong they pointed out it was a game where you could work entire populations to death. Given that the government does have the power to set standards for media, setting things as acceptable for a certain age is an endorsement. There is a whole list of things they could go after- for example, if you are against abortions, why not restrict pollution to protect fetuses? Except the rationale for all these things is to hurt people who fail to conform, not obedience to any claimed moral standard.
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Pint0 Xtreme »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:That would be the difference. Wanting something to happen and knowing it is wrong and that it should never actually be done (even if me getting into power may be a scary thing, which is why I will never seek it) is completely different from what crazy ass reactionaries do. They want something to happen, and think that it should happen, then they seek the power to do it.

The worst I would ever actually do is grouse about crucifying* people while I am laying in front of a bulldozer.

*I just kinda think that if you are going to execute someone, there should be some class to it. The romans had class.
Being on the brunt of religiously-motivated anti-gay discrimination, I too sometimes conjure up revenge fantasies. But it's not long until I'm reminded of how much of the world would really remain the same if we mimic their hateful persecution. An ideal world would be the social marginalization of homophobia. I keep hearing how marriage equality will become realized once the old people die. Truthfully, I don't want to wait for them to die. I want them to be alive when it happens and I want them to live to see their homophobic ideology marginalized in American society.
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Lonestar »

Interestingly, at work we got an corporate email about it from that most leftist of corporations, Northrup Grumman. I wonder if the Christian Right realize just how marginalized they are really?
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

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That's because business tends to err on the side of freedom with regards to issues like this. Northrup Grumman is perhaps among the most reactionary of all major American corporations, and yet their reactionary positions are staked entirely on economics. If you could, I'd take that e-mail, pass it around to all of my piss-poor Fundie friends, and show them how little their corporate masters think of them. Then insinuate it's the same in most companies, and watch them blow a fuse as they reach the limits of political doublethink.
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Einzige wrote:Northrup Grumman is perhaps among the most reactionary of all major American corporations, and yet their reactionary positions are staked entirely on economics.
Northrop Grumman isn't particularly reactionary, even so far as defense contractors go. Lockheed Martin and BAE are almost certainly "worse" (though, honestly, I trust defense contractors more than big oil companies or financial institutions).
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Einzige wrote:That's because business tends to err on the side of freedom with regards to issues like this. Northrup Grumman is perhaps among the most reactionary of all major American corporations, and yet their reactionary positions are staked entirely on economics. If you could, I'd take that e-mail, pass it around to all of my piss-poor Fundie friends, and show them how little their corporate masters think of them. Then insinuate it's the same in most companies, and watch them blow a fuse as they reach the limits of political doublethink.
I've been saying this for ages. Mainstream political Christianity is only tolerated in the United States ONLY so long as it stays firmly in the tradition of "ye slaves be submissive to your master" and "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's". They're an extremely stupid, gullible, psychologically collectivist and culturally totalitarian group, with a weakness for authoritarianism and fantasies of using the State to beat its (perceived) enemies. They are kept around because they will line up firstly and most enthusiastically when the intellectuals and propagandists of the state-corporate complex beat the drums, for a myriad of elite interest hobby horses, like hating on taxes, unions, environmental regulations, and support for recognizing Palestinians as human beings. The statist reactionary/nationalist fanatic wing of the state-corporate elite -- aligned mostly the GOP -- lean on them heavily as essentially their only significant mass base, and subsidize and throw some scraps to kept pastors and theologians in order to keep their concept of political Christianity alive and dominant.

As for how there was ever such a fanatic religious base to exploit for these purposes in the U.S., well I think its a product of several things. One, it has become increasingly impossible, and even often contrary to capitalist goals, to exploit racism to beat the drums, necessitating a replacement for the poor white reactionary. Two, in the U.S. in particular there is both a strong history of religious revivalism and restorationism, providing an essential cultural ingredient. Third, and I'd argue most importantly, in this most business-run of advanced societies, there is a poverty of strong social and civil institutions, and an extraordinary poverty in meaningful grassroots political activism, organization, and working class culture and workers' organization (with the dramatic war on unions since the 1950s, with corresponding expected collapse in labor standards and wage growth since). Chomsky points this out, and I think he's right, that the church remained one of the handful of cohesive local institutions of associational life not destroyed in the atomizing suburbanization of the American middle class, and one of the few succors for the sores of the working class and working poor in the absence of labor culture and institutions. Add opportunistic far-right sponsorship of people like Jerry Falwell and their ilk, the saturation of "cultural issues" over substantive and economic ones, and the literal corporatization of evangelical Christian culture (the megachurches, the huge televangelist business empires, literature farms, diploma mills, ad nausuem) and your ugly fruit is ripe for the picking. It helped that the cultural revolution's causes were taken up by the left, thus providing yet another motive for setting the dogs on them.

The last thing they want is legitimate political Christianity -- the Christianity of the poor peasant, the untreated sick, the starving child, etc. One should recall that tiny sectors remain politically Christian -- and left, and skeptical of concentrated power. The U.S. war against the public of Latin America in the 1980s was waged, especially in El Salvador, often against the native Roman Catholic Church. How odd that Falwell and his lemmings were trying to strum up donations to pack into Oliver North's cocaine rucksack to be hauled down to the Contras, while simultaneously his backers were encouraging and aiding assassination campaigns against churchmen who spoke out against abuse of peasants. Glenn Beck is trotted out to denounce "social" Christianity to Christian rightists, like some learned theologian vice allegedly-recovered alcoholic-and-drug-addict-turned-Mormon. They make sure to rip off his LDS Christian consumer warning label and scrub him of the stink of Mormon, as to avoid the Romney Factor (funny how eager they are to paste over deep and real fissures in American Christianity, if Mormonism can even be convincingly shoe-horned into that group). How quickly it is Uncle Sam throws Jesus in the ditch when he's not turning tricks.

In the end what you're describing is pretty much capitalism by the book. The firm has no loyalty when it might lose money alienating customers, expertise, or labor (for no reason). It wants us to be interchangable cogs, so in the big picture, except for specialized exceptions, it tends to work against racism, sexism, and homophobia, in a limited sense.
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Do you really think this 'sounds cool' or something?
You do realize that a person such as I who is in any way self-aware would have given up all illusions about being "cool" before they reach the age of ten right?

I am decidedly not cool. I have no illusions about me or anything I say or do being cool. You are talking to the guy who considers a fun weekend being one in which he comes home with coolers full of frog eggs and a body covered in ectoparasites, who imitates frog calls for fun, and does very large multiple regressions to prove a point on a messageboard.

Come on.
You should never back down or play nice with people who are motivated and organized for the purpose of harming others over a bit of fiction, and this is not the only issue that they take up which causes that kind of very real harm. I think there's room for hyperbole, sarcasm and irony when making light of some of these incredibly out-of-whack claims forwarded by the 'oppressed' bigoted majority, but while I don't fault anyone for making them, even privately harboring these kinds of violent thoughts are bad and certainly below the measure of a person driven by a goal-oriented rational thought
If you are a robot, sure. But no one is. I am a gay atheist in a quasi-theocratic society who places moral and emotional value in nature and happens to also work with one of the most endangered groups of organisms since the Chichilub impact, in ecosystems that are currently being gleefully raped by humanity on a scale the likes of which you cannot imagine. I am absolutely powerless to change matters because policy makers and regulators dont listen to voters who cannot also provide them with insane amounts of money, hookers, and toaster ovens upon which to snort crystalized methamphetamines.

Imagine how gloriously frustrating that is. To watch your civil rights get Voted on. To get sick to your stomach when you see the BP clusterfuck, or notice on google maps that the flooded forest you played in as a kid is gone. To go to a small zoological collection and find the last specimens ever collected of literally dozens of frog species before human introduced chytrid fungus or habitat destruction wiped them off the face of the earth. Watch as pesticides turn frogs into transsexuals (nothing wrong with the humans ones... but frog testes should not produce oocytes!), or depress their immune systems to the point that they contract meningitis.

Now imagine that all you can do is watch. That you are in fact powerless. Too small a portion of the population cares, those that do are idiots who do more harm than good to your cause, and those who's jobs are actually to stop some of these things are so corrupt that the Roman Senate would be disgusted.

I think a person in a similar situation is entitled to harbor certain revenge fantasies, just not try to carry them out.
Internet Tough Guy talk about backing over someone with a car or feeding them to their weight in fireants is frowned upon for good reason.
Heh... you think I only say things like this on the internet... Of course I only do so in public from the safety of my Ivory Tower where all the other ecologists secretly think the same thing but never say it.
I wouldn't want even real criminals to be tortured and treated inhumanely, so I wouldn't advocate harsher treatment for the people whose crime is an abhorrent political philosophy.
Which is why I would never send a bill to congress asking that either be done. Just bitch, grumble, complain, and describe with sadistic glee what I think some people deserve but would be immoral to really visit upon their persons. :angelic:
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Justforfun000 »

Aly Wrote:
If you are a robot, sure. But no one is. I am a gay atheist in a quasi-theocratic society who places moral and emotional value in nature and happens to also work with one of the most endangered groups of organisms since the Chichilub impact, in ecosystems that are currently being gleefully raped by humanity on a scale the likes of which you cannot imagine. I am absolutely powerless to change matters because policy makers and regulators dont listen to voters who cannot also provide them with insane amounts of money, hookers, and toaster ovens upon which to snort crystalized methamphetamines.
Hehe. I love this post. It must be incredibly frustrating to be so naturally involved in such issues and have to deal with public indifference or worse, dismissiveness. Take heart in knowing you aren't alone. Many people DO care, it's just that the ones most vocal seem to be the people who are least involved. I don't understand it really, but it seems true nonetheless.
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Rye »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:That would be the difference. Wanting something to happen and knowing it is wrong and that it should never actually be done (even if me getting into power may be a scary thing, which is why I will never seek it) is completely different from what crazy ass reactionaries do. They want something to happen, and think that it should happen, then they seek the power to do it.
Its still a stupid and immoral thing to say or even think. Not that I think your thoughts should be modified to conform with my standards, but I think it bears pointing out.
It's not immoral to think it any more than it is to feel a pang of lust over someone when you're in a relationship. It's similarly not immoral to think about the Christian right starting a new civil war that they would inevitably lose, a war that would be supremely satisfying to take part in. The morality of saying it is context-dependent. Wanting to off the people that get in your way is a normal human reaction, despite our ivory tower idealising of "rational" humanity. I don't think it's immoral to say it in the context of "These fantasists are full of shit and don't know what actual persecution is."
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Serafina »

Toughts are not immoral - they do not hurt anyone.
Therefore, revenge fantasies are not immoral (just like sexual fantasies are not).

Really, as long as you do not act on it, there is nothing wrong with it.
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Justforfun000 »

THoughts are not immoral - they do not hurt anyone.
Therefore, revenge fantasies are not immoral (just like sexual fantasies are not).

Really, as long as you do not act on it, there is nothing wrong with it.
That's true. Thoughts come unbidden and we all go through temporary moments of note..but they are shit all in and of themselves if they aren't actually acted upon. Your actions determine who you are ultimately, not your professions.
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Covenant »

While I think people are underplaying the importance of trying to break nasty thought processes if they keep coming up, I'm not even going to bother with the concept of morality and the impulse to violence, there's certainly nothing wrong with someone for being frustrated--and it's natural for animals like us to feel that frustration in terms of dominance and fighting. I certainly can't think of anything un-Ethical with having angry thoughts.

I'm just appealing to the better natures of people, even though I think everyone looks at people and go "What is wrong with them?" when they see all the stuff going on. And I'd never choose to single Aly out either, since on a checklist of people who deserve to be frustrated, they hit just about all of 'em--even before the gulf spill basically obliterated X numbers of wetlands. After all, we're the smart ones in the room, rationality is one of our advantages, and there's plenty of empowering fantasies that don't involve this kind of baggage. It also leads to a very self-defeating sense of powerlessness, even if we are individually incapable of changing national priorities.

Anyway, I'm glad nobody flamed the post, but I didn't want Alyrium Denryle to feel like I was chiding them (not that they'd have a reason to give a fuck if it was the case), nor did I want to appeal to an imaginary moral highground, since this isn't a debate anymore--it's an intellectual knife-fight. Even so, I did want to make sure there was a little context on record.
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Rye wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:That would be the difference. Wanting something to happen and knowing it is wrong and that it should never actually be done (even if me getting into power may be a scary thing, which is why I will never seek it) is completely different from what crazy ass reactionaries do. They want something to happen, and think that it should happen, then they seek the power to do it.
Its still a stupid and immoral thing to say or even think. Not that I think your thoughts should be modified to conform with my standards, but I think it bears pointing out.
It's not immoral to think it any more than it is to feel a pang of lust over someone when you're in a relationship. It's similarly not immoral to think about the Christian right starting a new civil war that they would inevitably lose, a war that would be supremely satisfying to take part in. The morality of saying it is context-dependent. Wanting to off the people that get in your way is a normal human reaction, despite our ivory tower idealising of "rational" humanity. I don't think it's immoral to say it in the context of "These fantasists are full of shit and don't know what actual persecution is."
Yeah, I wonder how "acceptable" it would be on the board if the people weren't Accepted Enemies like Evil Theists?

Furthermore, there are many moral systems by which you intents and good will or lack thereof reflect on your moral qualities as a human being, even if you do not implement your murder, child rape, date rape, torture-revenge whatever fantasies. We think less of the person who wishes badly on his children and does not feel guilty, even if they do nothing to materially implement their bad will. You're talking about this idiotic idea that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with having bad will, that's ridiculous. Obviously one thinks someone who wishes badly on another for petty and childish and selfish reasons is an asshole. This is really basic. What you're talking about with this strawman bullshit of "idealizing of 'rational' humanity" is nothing but appealing to unfalsifiable declarations of natural law, in this guise of "normal human reaction." In fact, rape itself might be a circumstantially humanly rational, even natural evolutionary heritage, act. That does not mean it is not wrong, and there are not fundamental human rights, and fundamental human moralities.
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Rye
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Rye »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Yeah, I wonder how "acceptable" it would be on the board if the people weren't Accepted Enemies like Evil Theists?
The board's acceptance of antitheistic sentiment is irrelevant, really. I'd say the same thing on spacebattles or anywhere because I think it's true, not because I'm going to get agreed with.
Furthermore, there are many moral systems by which you intents and good will or lack thereof reflect on your moral qualities as a human being, even if you do not implement your murder, child rape, date rape, torture-revenge whatever fantasies. We think less of the person who wishes badly on his children and does not feel guilty, even if they do nothing to materially implement their bad will. You're talking about this idiotic idea that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with having bad will, that's ridiculous. Obviously one thinks someone who wishes badly on another for petty and childish and selfish reasons is an asshole. This is really basic. What you're talking about with this strawman bullshit of "idealizing of 'rational' humanity" is nothing but appealing to unfalsifiable declarations of natural law, in this guise of "normal human reaction." In fact, rape itself might be a circumstantially humanly rational, even natural evolutionary heritage, act. That does not mean it is not wrong, and there are not fundamental human rights, and fundamental human moralities.
All those intent-first moral systems are vain aesthetics and nothing more. Even in the context of your value-judgement over such typical human hatreds, it's still just an aesthetic opinion. There's no basis to say the dad who resents his kids but who does the right thing by them is a bad person. If anything, he's actually a good person for working past his issues and being indistinguishable from a good father.

There are no fundamental human rights. Rights are constructed to a facilitate a social purpose. There's no fundamental human morality, there's just typical ones that are mostly habitual and a bunch of biological predispositions that are usually situation-dependent. At no point is the person at gunpoint who blows up a busload of nuns to survive "inhuman", at no point is the sadistic sociopath making him do it inhuman.
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Uraniun235 »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You're talking about this idiotic idea that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with having bad will, that's ridiculous. Obviously one thinks someone who wishes badly on another for petty and childish and selfish reasons is an asshole.
Yeah, but they're still going to have those thoughts regardless of whether they give voice to them or not. A person won't magically become better by pretending they don't have aggressive or hateful thoughts or feelings; they're only deluding themselves and others into believing they're better than they are. If anything, I would imagine that we should encourage people to be honest about their feelings and intentions, so that we can know where we and they stand, and possibly be able to provide negative feedback against harmful sentiments.

Do you believe that an asshole can be reformed? If so, do you have a better way to encourage their reform? If not, wouldn't you rather know who the assholes are?
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Re: Obama declares June "GLBT" month. Christians cry Oppress

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Uraniun235 wrote: Yeah, but they're still going to have those thoughts regardless of whether they give voice to them or not. A person won't magically become better by pretending they don't have aggressive or hateful thoughts or feelings; they're only deluding themselves and others into believing they're better than they are. If anything, I would imagine that we should encourage people to be honest about their feelings and intentions, so that we can know where we and they stand, and possibly be able to provide negative feedback against harmful sentiments.

Do you believe that an asshole can be reformed? If so, do you have a better way to encourage their reform? If not, wouldn't you rather know who the assholes are?
This is something I agree with. The outing of such thoughts and emotions can only aid society if it leads to reformation, rather than tit for tat thinking to the contrary. The recent shooting in Cumbria springs to mind, given the perpetrator was otherwise seen as a fairly normal, balanced human being in a functional role within a close-knit community. There may have been some hints at feuding between other workers which led to his killing spree, or it may have been totally unpredictable no matter what. Either way, I'd like a society that embraces openness for thoughts that may not kow tow the party line, if only to add variety if they are benign, or to help correct someone of destructive thinking if they are very real misgivings that may be acted on. We do get a lot of this stuff aired openly as it is, albeit, somewhat harder to discern than "Kill all black people, they are lazy" or something. Crypto-racist bullshit exists within, say, online dating sites, among other nuggets which act as warning signs to those more critical of the company they keep.
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