Schools report finds ‘jaw-dropping’ gap for black boys

[Spoonist]

Don't know whose argument it reinforces but the black ghetto culure is taken in wholesale by ghettos around the world regardless of colour. So in some euro ghettos those anti-intellectual kids trying too hard to be cool are of ME descent or even slavic. I've even seen some russian gangsta kids in London. The common theme being poor with lots of grief vs society with a grievance of entitlement undercurrent.

So while the culture might have originated in US black ghettos, the sentiment is a human one which propagates outsider mentality and poverty along generations. Sorta like old Gypsy/Roma or Irish traveller culture.

[Hillary]

If you want to do that, you also have to equalise opportunities after school. All well and good saying "blacks should work harder at school", but when they are much less likely to get a high flying career with the same qualifications as a white person, you can understand why they don't. Even if they excel at school, what chance of a seat in the boardroom?

Stravo said the message from high profile blacks is "Be a thug, keep it real and you will be sipping Cristal and have bitches at your feet." Well for many blacks it is difficult to argue that this isn't their best chance for a successful life.

Without a doubt that's the stupidest thing I've read all week. What you're saying is akin to me demanding you hire me for a job with the promise that I will become qualified for it later. They will NEVER get the career opportunities their community needs if they are handed the positions, they have to bust their asses and work for equality just like everyone else. And who says they have to jump straight to the boardroom? How about upper middle management? How about law school and medical school? How about master's degrees in literature and getting jobs as college teachers?

You know how you change the stereotype that blacks aren't as smart/professional/career-oriented as whites? SMARTEN THE FUCK UP! Work hard, stay in school, and quit giving a shit about how 'acting white' makes your broke, unemployed friends look down on you.

Which would be fine had I said or even inferred any of that. I'm talking about opportunities, not positive descrimination. I never said school leavers should jump into board positions, my point is that they should at least feel that they will, one day, have a chance of getting there.

The plain fact is that white people find it easier to gain employment or even job interviews than blacks with the same qualifications. The plain fact is that boardrooms of major companies are full of white faces. It doesn't matter how much black kids "smarten up", unless there is a seachange in the way companies employ and promote people they ain't going to get the top jobs.

[houser2112]

Frankly, blaming rap is hilarious, because the largest consumers of rap are suburban white kids. Surely there should be some effects on these kids if the music is so bad. But the focus is always on the black kids.

I don't think rap is being blamed because "most people who like rap are black kids", but rather "most black kids like rap".

[Bakustra]

Frankly, blaming rap is hilarious, because the largest consumers of rap are suburban white kids. Surely there should be some effects on these kids if the music is so bad. But the focus is always on the black kids.

I don't think rap is being blamed because "most people who like rap are black kids", but rather "most black kids like rap".

People are saying that rap has a deleterious effect on black kids, but surely it should have a similar effect on its largest consumers, no?

[Simon_Jester]

I do not buy that argument. No amount of nihilistic rap or death metal or punk will over-rule proper upbringing and decency of character.

Note word "reinforcement."

If you grow up in a community that tells you to be a good little career-oriented college-bound kid, odds are no amount of death metal will change that. You'll just wind up being a good little career-oriented college-bound kid who wears black with spiky bits of metal more often, or something, so to speak.

If you grow up in a community that tells you "fuck this noise, you have about the same chance of graduating from college that you do of walking on Mars," popular culture probably won't change that either... but it can sure reinforce it.

Simon, should we blame Bob Dylan, the Grand Funk Railroad and Marvin Gaye for opposition to the Vietnam War? Should we blame the Sex Pistols and Clash for inequity in British society? Music is often a consequence of popular beliefs, rather than a cause of them, and that ignores that said beliefs may well be accurate and true.

Popular culture in general (not just music) is definitely a consequence of popular beliefs. I totally agree on that. But it can also be a self-reinforcing consequence: one that serves to promote the same situation that inspired it.

It is far from the biggest part of the problem. I suspect it is one of the smallest parts of the problem. Making it go away would not end the problem; doing other things could end the problem without even trying to make it go away.

I'm pretty sure it's not helping though. And in this case it's not just the music, to repeat that; it's the whole culture that the music is just one tiny sliver of. "Our minority group is fucked over at every turn, so why bother?" may well be honest, but it can still contribute to the degree to which the minority group is fucked over.

Every time someone is rewarded by their peers for giving up hope, the community hurts itself a little bit more.

Frankly, blaming rap is hilarious, because the largest consumers of rap are suburban white kids. Surely there should be some effects on these kids if the music is so bad. But the focus is always on the black kids.

I don't think rap is being blamed because "most people who like rap are black kids", but rather "most black kids like rap".

People are saying that rap has a deleterious effect on black kids, but surely it should have a similar effect on its largest consumers, no?

If the argument were "rap emits magic stupid rays that make you stupid," then yes that would be true.

That isn't the argument. Rap, in isolation, totally irrelevant. Rap, as part of a culture that encourages people to drop out of mainstream society and rewards them with peer approval for doing so, is a tiny part of a larger problem.

White suburban kids who listen to rap don't get peer approval for blowing a test. That's what really matters, not the music.

[Bakustra]

So if there is a culture, why is in the inner cities specifically? Or to cut through the haze, is it really beneficial to try and convince inner-city kids to delude themselves? That is what all these measures seek to do. They seek to convince black kids to ignore prejudice, discrimination, and all that, and pretend that they've got the same opportunities as a white kid in the suburbs. This might be nice for confidence, but it won't conjure the opportunities out of thin air. It won't make getting pulled over for a DWB not happen. It won't make the real-estate agency ignore the redlining policy they unofficially have. It won't stop rural sheriffs from asking you not to stay overnight in some towns- assuming that they're polite enough to ask. And it won't pay for college.

I also went to two different suburban white schools, and if you think that the culture there can be described as pro-learning, I'm just going to have to laugh.

[Stravo]

Frankly, blaming rap is hilarious, because the largest consumers of rap are suburban white kids. Surely there should be some effects on these kids if the music is so bad. But the focus is always on the black kids.

I don't think rap is being blamed because "most people who like rap are black kids", but rather "most black kids like rap".

People are saying that rap has a deleterious effect on black kids, but surely it should have a similar effect on its largest consumers, no?

What I was trying to say is not that rap is inherently evil or even a root cause it's that when you have such a powerful popular influence on young black men telling them that they should be thugs and "keep it real" it's not helping in any way. Your schools suck, the world treats you like shit and opportunities are scarce. You turn on the radio and music written by, sung by and produced by young black men is telling them to go ahead and be thugs and stop acting white.

It is a sadly ironic reinforcement of a mentality that is putting them onto a road of despair.

Can you point to a similarly popular medium that is bringing a message of self esteem and positive reinforcement to black youth? The sad part is that black men are telling other black men to be thugs, And they should know better.

[open_sketchbook]

Are people here really advocating controlling media in order to solve as social ill? Because I'm sure the black population will feel great about a bunch of white folks tramping in and surgically removing everything from their music that offends their sensibilities. That won't feel oppressive at all, and backfire into making black youths care even less!

The reason that rap and rap culture has to much power is because rings true to people who have little else. It's sort of like a cultural escape valve; disadvantaged people know they have roughly the same chance of going anywhere if they try in school or if they don't, so fuck it! "Why should I bother with all this white boy shit when they're going to toss me back into the ghetto afterward? I'll have just wasted years I could have spent making contacts in the local gangs and actually making money!" Rap music is stating, not creating, that reality.

[Stravo]

Are people here really advocating controlling media in order to solve as social ill? Because I'm sure the black population will feel great about a bunch of white folks tramping in and surgically removing everything from their music that offends their sensibilities. That won't feel oppressive at all, and backfire into making black youths care even less!

Where? Can you tell me where that has been stated anywhere in this thread?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

open_sketchbook: If you seriously think that rap music is what black consumers want rather than a concerted effort by the record labels to force more sales.... Authentic black rap was the stuff in the 1980s which frequently preached, if still focusing on glamorous success in life, more decent values, viz:



And then of course along came the big labels, and Mix-a-Lot was pressured into dressing like a pimp and producing Mack Daddy. This is prototypical for how the record labels have hijacked black cultural productions and turned them into mass market promoters of violence.

[The Spartan]

Have you considered that perhaps by definition the majority of children are not going to be reading at a 'high school level' before they get to high school?

Have you considered that that's exactly why I referred to myself as "a little atypical" and that the main point was that less than 50% being able to "read proficiently" is an appalling number.

(At this point I'm assuming that "read proficiently" means "read proficiently for a nine year old" unless someone happens to know a different definition that they're using.)

[PainRack]

What I was trying to say is not that rap is inherently evil or even a root cause it's that when you have such a powerful popular influence on young black men telling them that they should be thugs and "keep it real" it's not helping in any way. Your schools suck, the world treats you like shit and opportunities are scarce. You turn on the radio and music written by, sung by and produced by young black men is telling them to go ahead and be thugs and stop acting white.

It is a sadly ironic reinforcement of a mentality that is putting them onto a road of despair.

Can you point to a similarly popular medium that is bringing a message of self esteem and positive reinforcement to black youth? The sad part is that black men are telling other black men to be thugs, And they should know better.

I guess the real reason for controversy in this thread is, so, what're you going to do about it?

If rap music reinforces negative social roles, should rap music be amended?

[ArmorPierce]

And that's BULLSHIT. I've seen blacks from single parent families go to medical school after attending the most violent highschool in my town. They wanted out, so they got out. So far in society we've been trying to end segregation by changing the hearts/minds/culture of the whites. Maybe we could work a little bit on the minorities too, what do you say?

So what? For every success story there are dozens of failures. I'm not black but I come from a poor immigrant family and lived in black communities and I know that I could have very easily turned out rotten. Me turning out okay was more to do with luck and circumstance than anything. Given opportunity I could have gone bad. Shoot, someone could have looked at me as an example of why staying in school and doing your work does not pay since until recently I graduated school and had no job and even now I am working for below my qualifications.

[adam_grif]

For what it's worth, I recall reading stats about the average IQ of black people sorted by their upbringing. The whole "black people are 1SD lower than whites" thing held true across America, even in adopted households with white parents. However, when the children of black servicemen who had settled in other countries were examined, they had the same average as white people did. The implication was, as people have been saying here, that the "black culture" was to blame.

With regards to the discussion about whether rap music is to blame here, I don't really think so. It kind of is, insofar as it is one method by which culture is transmitted, but it is also the result of the culture itself. I haven't seen any evidence here that suggests that this culture was built wholecloth out of nothing by rap artists. All media is both the result of past culture and has some influence on future culture, so it might be partially responsible for a kind of feedback loop, but blaming rap, specifically, isn't helpful. The music presumably would perpetuate whatever memes were around at the time, good or bad.

[Broomstick]

Its not the family culture, its oppositional identity. You need to change how blacks (and specifically black males) view education. Its all posturing and 'acting hard' for the approval of their peers, at the expense of their futures.

If you want to do that, you also have to equalise opportunities after school. All well and good saying "blacks should work harder at school", but when they are much less likely to get a high flying career with the same qualifications as a white person, you can understand why they don't. Even if they excel at school, what chance of a seat in the boardroom?

And yet, despite long-standing historical lack of opportunity, the girls of any race do better in school than the boys of any race....

It's not just difference in opportunity, there really is an impact from how a culture view education. Poor white Jews still value education and will shuffle their kids off to Hebrew school at 3 or 4 and expect the kids to get educated. Poor white mountain people in Appalachia view school as a waste of time and a bother, and feel the kids should either be home helping their parents or getting a job, any job, as soon as possible. Which group do you think produces more college graduates? My father's family came to the US as dirt poor immigrants yet all of them were fluent in at least two languages, literate in at least two alphabets, and the first generation born in the US went to college without exception. My in-laws have been in the US for....well, thousands of years on the Native side, over 350 for the whites, and yet it was only two years ago that ANY member of that extended family graduated high school (there have been a few college grads - folks who got GED's and went to college, usually after realizing the hard way that dropping out of school was a mistake). What's the big difference? Culture. One side values education, the other doesn't - in fact, the other side discourages education. You know - it's just "book learnin'" and "reading ruins your eyes" and "educated guys are pussies".

Thing is, poor families that value education usually don't stay poor. They might go through episodes of poverty, but they can climb out of it given half a chance, or at least push their kids to get educated so they don't stay poor. Multi-generational poverty, though, almost always seems to go hand-in-hand with a lack of value in education.

And since it's more OK for girls to stay inside and read, and they don't have to prove what sort of men they are by sports and acting macho or whatever, it's not at all unusual to find poor girls are better students than poor boys, and girls having a bit more strength in language skills, and developing them just a bit sooner on average, further gives them an advantage. So... not only is being a good student seen as being a nerd, or "acting white", or whatever, it's seen as effeminate. On par with a boy admitting he likes to knit pink scarves and mittens. A real man plays sports and hangs out with the guys, drinking and partying.

It's a big drag on the group as a whole, but god forbid anyone mention it. Pointing out a real cultural problem makes a person racist in today's world

Oddly enough - among my in-laws there are more illiterate men than women, even among those in the middle-class. Hmm.... it does keep coming back to culture, doesn't it?

[Broomstick]

Many of those immigrant groups don't have the same problems that face African-Americans, Latinos, and Native Americans (who do even worse). All of those groups were outright enslaved historically, generally are racially segregated by real estate companies, tend to get denied for loans, many towns were sundown towns until recently and a number still are... those problems are not as common for East Asian, South Asian, and Middle Eastern immigrants (and practically nonexistent for many European immigrants). There's also the slight matter that a black man will do worse in job-hunting than a white man with a felony for equal qualifications. I bet that this also extends to Latino and Native American groups.

Let's clear a few things up, shall we?

Until after WWII, not all European immigrants were equal in the US. My mother remembered seeing signs in St. Louis stating "Help Wanted - No blacks or Irish need apply". My father - who looks and sounds Jewish - was run out of several sundown towns in Tennessee, Kentucky, Virgina, and West Virginia as late at the 1960's because - surprise - they didn't like Jews, either. When my father was looking for a college to attend he was told outright he wasn't even allowed to apply at certain institutions because they didn't accept Jews. Jews, Irish, Greeks, Italians, etc. used to be segregated into ghettos in US - hence the "Greektowns" and "Little Italies" in so many cities, along with the "Chinatowns". There are a lot fewer "Little Englands" and "Germantowns" because, until the 20th Century, those folks came over and were deemed acceptable while the other Euro-trash were shuffled off to a different part of town.

So let's cut the crap and the notion that somehow having a white skin makes you immune to bigotry, prejudice, and discrimination because it doesn't.

Granted, it's easier for someone Irish or Jewish to try to pass as another ethnicity from Europe than it is for blacks or Latinos or Asians to do so. When you look different it adds another layer of difficulty. No denying that. But it's not just a matter of looking different or being liked more - Asians such as Chinese and Japanese have long suffered discrimination in the US, segregation, systematic and institutionalized discrimination, they look different than the majority, and so forth yet they tend to do MUCH better academically and, even if they haven't penetrated the board room much, tend to do better economically as well. I can't help but think that a long tradition of valuing education factors into that.

[Broomstick]

So how do you propose that impoverished inner-city youths be made to stay in school when they have no career prospects, no hope of college, and are endangering themselves with it anyways, thanks to gang violence. Blaming the discriminated party is frankly disturbing. Would you blame a battered wife in the same way? Americans are frankly blind concerning racial matters, only ever seeing the end results and blaming it on the victims.

I don't blame a woman who is beaten by her husband, I don't think she deserves it. At the same time, however, I can tell her to get control of her life and leave the asshole.

How is somebody going to get into college, let alone law or med school when their public school system is a joke, they have poor grades in that thanks to dysfunctional teachers and home life, and they're too poor to even pay for it? Scholarships are probably to definitely out of their reach thanks to grades and lack information, as well as lack of a postal office or internet connections. There are few community colleges in large cities, and many of those would be too expensive. Things are more complex than blaming the blacks for why they're so poor.

Funny thing is, though, that white, Asian, Latino, etc. kids are all going to the exact same schools and, while not doing well, are demonstratively doing better. The black girls are going to the exact same schools, coming from the exact same homes, and still doing better than the boys. So it's not just the mean old school system, or the hostile world at large. There's something else going on with the boys.

On top of that, there are scholarships specifically for black people in this country. Money set aside solely for black students. But EVERY scholarship - be it for academics, sports, or art - must be EARNED. No one is handing out unearned money to anyone else, either, not even the poor white kid sitting next to the poor black kid in the classroom. Sure, there are scholarships for black kids.

And what "large cities" lack community colleges? Chicago has an extensive group of city colleges with low tuition for city residents. Perhaps New York or LA lacks such a thing? If so, please enlighten me.

About the only thing truthful in your statement is the problem of gang violence. That really is a significant road block to young black males who are far more likely to fall victim to it than any other group, whether or not they are in a gang.

There have been poor black kids from the projects who clawed their way into college and high paying careers. Keith Black for example, who went from poverty and racially segregated education in 1950's Alabama to chairman of the neurosurgery department and director of the Maxine Dunitz Neurosurgical Institute at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles, California. Oh, wait - his parents were educators and actually moved the family to a new location to give him better education opportunities. Gee, maybe that helped? OK, how about Ben Carson, another gifted neurosurgeon (and Director of Pediatric Neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins Hospital) but this time the child of a mother who never got past third grade and a father who abandoned the family when Ben was young. He grew up in Detroit, not a city know for its opportunities. Nonetheless, he got into Yale and the University of Michigan. Oh, wait - his mother, despite a lack of formal education, insisted that Ben and his brother read at least two books a week and write a report on them for her. Gee, think maybe that made a difference? (Ben's brother, by the way, is an engineer and doing quite well for himself).

Funny, isn't it? If a poor, uneducated single mother values education and insists on it her boy can grow up to be a world-class brain surgeon. You don't have to BE educated to VALUE education. You don't have to be educated to push your kids towards college (or even a trade). Clearly, black people ARE capable of great achievements, so you have to ask WHY aren't they achieving? It's not just a prejudiced society. You have to look at the folks who DO succeed. And, aside from sports and music/arts, what is a common feature you see again and again? Someone nudging that kid to get an education.

Really, that's one positive to Obama being president - clearly a black man (and yes, his mom was white but in America he is a black man, not a half-white) CAN get ahead. Both he and his wife are highly educated, successful black people. And what did they have in common? Obama's parents were pro-education. So were Michele's (she often speaks about that, in fact). MAYBE a few people will get it into their heads that if they keep their kids in school and urge them to get an education they will get ahead even if they are darker skinned than average.

Of course, turning out a generation of highly literate, college-educated black men is not going to solve all the country's racial problems. It would, however, be several steps in the right direction.

[Broomstick]

So if there is a culture, why is in the inner cities specifically? Or to cut through the haze, is it really beneficial to try and convince inner-city kids to delude themselves? That is what all these measures seek to do. They seek to convince black kids to ignore prejudice, discrimination, and all that, and pretend that they've got the same opportunities as a white kid in the suburbs.

No one is asking young black men to ignore discrimination. In this thread we all agree discrimination against black people in America is real, it exists, and it is toxic and corrosive to everyone in our society, but especially black people. Can we move past that a little bit? Thanks

What you do is tell the kids they can succeed despite prejudice - then hold up examples. There are, in fact, a LOT of middle class to upper middle class black people in America. They're are successful black tradesmen, lawyers, doctors, teachers, accountants, auto mechanics... people who hold down jobs and buy a nice house and put a little away for retirement and buy nice cars and clothes and toys for their kids. Basically, the America dream. Having grown up around Detroit myself I know they're there, I've met a bunch of them. I worked alongside a lot of them in Chicago. And now I live in Gary, the arguably the blackest city in America where whites are only 11% of the population - cripes, finding a professional or business person of any color BUT black is rare in this city. Of course the city suffers for being 85% black, a lot of bigots won't do business in Gary because of that. Nonetheless, some folks have figured out that if you get educated you can get a slice of the pie for yourself even if you live in a prejudiced society.

This might be nice for confidence, but it won't conjure the opportunities out of thin air. It won't make getting pulled over for a DWB not happen. It won't make the real-estate agency ignore the redlining policy they unofficially have. It won't stop rural sheriffs from asking you not to stay overnight in some towns- assuming that they're polite enough to ask. And it won't pay for college.

So... what's YOUR solution, hmm?

May I quote Mae Jemison? "I did have to say, 'I'm going to do this and I don't give a damn.'" She has spoken out about how unfair it is for women and minorities to have that attitude in some fields, yet she didn't sit around bitching about how society was against her - she got her MD and got into space. (Funny - her mother was a school teacher, and the family moved to Chicago to give the kids better educational opportunities. Hey, isn't that another example of that repeating pattern? If the family values education the kids tend to do better.)

I also went to two different suburban white schools, and if you think that the culture there can be described as pro-learning, I'm just going to have to laugh.

Yeah, but rich suburban white boys have an advantage in our bigoted society - they don't have to work as hard as everyone else to get ahead so they can slack and get away with it. That's the flip side of this, isn't it? White boys still have the advantage (though not as great as it used to be) Until the playing field is truly level everyone else has to run harder just to keep up.

[Bakustra]

Firstly, you're wrong about East Asian immigrants. They still make less on average than whites do, but this is usually invisible because their median educational level is higher. But that's a minor issue. The major issue is simple; you are, for some reason, unwilling to participate in any sort of discussion about race without complaining about how white people got discriminated against too, and demanding numerous disclaimers, generally slowing the discussion to a crawl. If your goal is to ensure that you stand alone with nobody willing to oppose you, that's an excellent strategy. If you genuinely want a discussion, then it is supremely counterproductive.

You seem to be unwilling to admit that there could be any barriers at all, and that single individuals do not imply a lack of barriers. For that matter, you distorted Keith Black's life, seeing as his father was a principal and his mother a teacher. They had the money to move. They had jobs. But I'm sure that any family in Highland Park can do the same.

Let's take a look at community colleges in cities. I said that there either are none or that they are unaffordable for families. CUNY, in New York, has tuition of about $3150 a year. Cheap, but can a family living hand-to-mouth really afford that? With the fees and room&board included, even if the kid is living at home, he still needs about $6500 a year. Living on-campus would bulk that up to $16000 a year, which is what it would cost at a state university. While there is financial aid, you still need to fill out the FAFSA. If the kid doesn't know about the FAFSA, then he won't be able to get any of that money. But NYC is significantly better than many cities around the country. Community College of Philadelphia costs about $7000 for a year with full enrollment. Detroit's sole community college, Wayne County, costs about $8500 for full enrollment. The Chicago City Colleges don't provide costs other than tuition, but that works out to about $2600. Cheaper than CUNY, but likely to fall into the same overall cost ballpark as the others. So it's not so simple. Many cities, such as Detroit, have limited community college access. Others do, but they all share costs.

Overall, though, entering college is dependent on financial aid, which means that it's dependent on the schools, or rather the school counselors. Alternatively, a really motivated kid could search things out, go to the libraries and ask the librarians. But what this means is that there is a barrier to entering college, which is intertwined with poverty and with the problems of the inner city. I'm not sure if you can blame "black culture" for the reasons the inner cities tend to be so impoverished, barring a handful of exceptions. This isn't an insurmountable barrier. I never claimed it was, and at this point, I've seen people assume that is what people mean when they say there are barriers that I have to wonder if it is intentional.

Now, can you back up your claim that white, Latino, Native American, and East Asian students graduate at significantly higher rates from inner city schools and disproportionately enter college as well?

Using Obama is hilarious, seeing as he was born and spent his early years in Hawaii, had a rich family on his mother's side, was educated in Indonesia... he's not typical by any means.

You're also ignoring that there could be any other barriers besides education. Again, this is like asking African-Americans to go through life with rose-tinted glasses on. Ignoring redlining, sundown towns, ostracism if they do live in white neighborhoods, DWBs... I doubt that you'll manage to convince people, and I doubt that in the end it would be less effort than working to correct these problems.

My solution to these problems? Fix the inner cities. Establish a functioning inner city. Break down barriers by enabling kids to pick up scholarship money through improving the schools. Fix DWBs by significant efforts to counteract established media stereotypes. These things will slowly decrease ostracism, redlining, and sundown towns to a more limited extent by knocking the supports out from under racism. Racism survives because people get their knowledge from TV and movies, which present idiotic stereotypes, and they see the poverty and can only assume that it's because the two are connected.

But way to go in ignoring that everybody else was talking about the inner city. That's what "black culture" is code for, you realize.

[The Spartan]

I was thinking about this and I remembered something I heard at my sister's graduation. It was something that the Dean of UT's School of Information mentioned, he said that there had been a multi-decade study and that the children most likely to succeed were the ones who had more than 500 books in their parent's home while growing up.

Now, I haven't read that particular study, but I found this article about it and found the title as well: Scholarly Culture and Educational Success in 27 Nations

Books at home push kids toward more schooling

By Jay Mathews
Thursday, July 22, 2010; PG14

My wife's parents did not go to college. Linda's father was a carpenter. Her mother was an aircraft assembly line worker. They grew up in Oklahoma farming families, married, moved to Southern California and raised their children in blue-collar neighborhoods full of families just like theirs.

Linda did go to college, a very selective one. Finding someone like her in that place was unusual. Some of the deans, to her annoyance, reminded her how fortunate she was to have come so far. There are many reasons why Linda became successful academically and professionally. But one did not occur to me until I read a new study about the relationship between books at home and educational attainment around the world.

The study, "Scholarly Culture and Educational Success in 27 Nations," by four researchers in the United States and Australia, is worth reading by those in the Washington area, where the number of books varies so much from family to family, and not necessarily because some parents are well-educated and others aren't. The study, based on 20 years of research, suggests that children who have 500 or more books in the home get, on average, 3.2 years more schooling than children in bookless homes. Even just 20 books makes a difference. The availability of reading material has a strong impact on a child's education, even when controlling for the effects of parental education, father's occupation, gender, nationality, political system and gross national product.

Linda remembers having at least 300 books in her home when she was growing up in the 1950s and 1960s. Many of the books were hers, bought with her $1 weekly allowance and babysitter earnings, often cheaply through the Scholastic Book Club at school. But her father was also a big reader. His collection of Zane Greys and Bret Hartes filled the shelves he built in their home in Lawndale, Calif., with help from Linda's great-uncle John, a cabinetmaker.

Linda's parents purchased the Encyclopedia Americana when she was in intermediate school. They added copies of Reader's Digest condensed books, a favorite of her mother's. Linda devoured those volumes, along with untold numbers of books from her weekly trips to the library.

In other words, like many successful people in this area, she grew up in a book culture established by a family that could not afford many extras but made reading a priority.

The new study led by Mariah Evans of the University of Nevada, Reno, in the journal Research in Social Stratification and Mobility, shows the influence of home libraries on schooling is found nearly everywhere, and it has more power than I expected.

Anyone who has studied the effects of home on learning knows that books are important. The summer learning loss suffered by inner-city children is at least in part the result of them not being encouraged to read, studies suggest. I had associated book reading with affluent parents, because high family income also correlates with school success. But the international study found there was more to it than that.

Even the children of poor, illiterate parents in China, the study shows, on average attained the same academic level as the children of college graduates, if they had opportunities to read. Chinese children who had 500 or more books at home got 6.6 years more schooling than Chinese children without books, the study shows. "Having books in the home has a greater impact on children from the least educated families," it says.

These book habits, as many parents know, never go away. We shampooed the carpets at our house this month, forcing me to move many volumes so the cleaners could get under the bookcases. It nearly killed me, but when Linda and I see books also piling up in the homes of our children, we know it is worth the effort.

And consider how this can become a multi-generational problem.

[Broomstick]

Firstly, you're wrong about East Asian immigrants. They still make less on average than whites do, but this is usually invisible because their median educational level is higher. But that's a minor issue. The major issue is simple; you are, for some reason, unwilling to participate in any sort of discussion about race without complaining about how white people got discriminated against too, and demanding numerous disclaimers, generally slowing the discussion to a crawl.

My point, which is sailing over your head, is that discrimination is not the SOLE reason for this disparity in results! If it was, then black girls would be doing equally poorly, if not more so (because they have to battle both racial and sexual prejudice) and that is NOT the case.

It might also be helpful to look at other groups who have suffered discrimination in the past to see if something that worked for them might work for current groups having problems... but, oh, no, all people are so different there couldn't possibly be some things that would work for everyone....

You seem to be unwilling to admit that there could be any barriers at all, and that single individuals do not imply a lack of barriers.

Oh, please - I have listed barriers. I have admitted barriers. I gave examples of people who succeeded DESPITE barriers and suggested we look at what they have in common as a possible means of finding a means to to benefit people suffering under unfair treatment.

For that matter, you distorted Keith Black's life, seeing as his father was a principal and his mother a teacher. They had the money to move. They had jobs. But I'm sure that any family in Highland Park can do the same.

So? Doesn't that SUPPORT my suggestion that people who value education have a significant impact on whether not a child succeeds in obtaining an education despite societal barriers?

The Chicago City Colleges don't provide costs other than tuition, but that works out to about $2600.

Probably because that's about all the cost there is, aside from textbooks. CCC's don't have dorms, everyone commutes. No additional fees for students, other than tuition, textbooks, and for certain limited courses, lab fees.

Overall, though, entering college is dependent on financial aid, which means that it's dependent on the schools, or rather the school counselors. Alternatively, a really motivated kid could search things out, go to the libraries and ask the librarians.

Or, when they go to the welfare office, they'll get bombarded with information on how to fund education. At least in Gary, Indiana they do - I know this from direct experience. In fact, Lake County, Indiana even has a limited amount of funds that are NEED based - not academic based - to help people get everything from a GED to a four year degree, including lots of information on how to get money to go to college. Whether you need it or not. Given the demographics of this city the lion's share of that goes to black people.

Now, can you back up your claim that white, Latino, Native American, and East Asian students graduate at significantly higher rates from inner city schools and disproportionately enter college as well?

Way to read more into my post than is actually there - I didn't say they were graduating or going to college at higher rates, only that they were doing BETTER - which is a low bar indeed. That might mean dropping out in 10th grade instead of 8th, or reading only 2 grades levels below where they should instead of 3.

But really, I was speaking mostly of the study in the OP, where there are marked differences in reading performance. Again, it doesn't speak to who is actually graduating, only to who is performing better at a certain point.

Using Obama is hilarious, seeing as he was born and spent his early years in Hawaii, had a rich family on his mother's side, was educated in Indonesia... he's not typical by any means.

Yes, well, how about his wife - born and raised in Chicago to black parents, successful lawyer before she was First Lady. Or are you going to throw out every successful black person as an anomaly?

You're also ignoring that there could be any other barriers besides education.

Nope, I'm not, actually. However, education can help compensate for some of those other problems. Or are you disputing the value of education?

Again, this is like asking African-Americans to go through life with rose-tinted glasses on. Ignoring redlining, sundown towns, ostracism if they do live in white neighborhoods, DWBs... I doubt that you'll manage to convince people, and I doubt that in the end it would be less effort than working to correct these problems.

Oh, please - yes, we all know redlining, sundown towns, etc. exist and no one is asking anyone to ignore that. However, there's no reason that a redlined neighborhood can't consist of middle class black people - in fact, such exist in the Chicago area, for better or worse, large tracts that are, effectively, black only but filled with doctors, lawyers, business owners, etc. Doesn't mean it's the best solution, but it's better than wallowing in despair. Other ethnic groups - the Chinese for example - have managed to raise up a middle class despite redlining. Does that mean that blacks and Chinese face the same obstacles? No, of course not.

My solution to these problems? Fix the inner cities. Establish a functioning inner city.

HOW. Details. How do you plan to "fix" the inner city.

(I suppose you'll be happy to tell the rural blacks to go to hell in the meanwhile - or don't you think entrenched rural poverty is worth mentioning?)

Break down barriers by enabling kids to pick up scholarship money through improving the schools.

Won't do much good if the parents aren't supportive. Otherwise, you're just telling society to fix the problem.

Fix DWBs by significant efforts to counteract established media stereotypes.

Or hiring more minority officers. Or passing around this video which has a lot more truth to it than some folks want to admit.

But way to go in ignoring that everybody else was talking about the inner city. That's what "black culture" is code for, you realize.

Then why don't you say "inner city black culture"? Or are you saying that if it's inner city ghetto then it's somehow "not black"? Huh, maybe that's why some other people are calling it "gangsta" or some other form of culture rather than saying it's "black culture" as if no other form of black culture exists?

[Simon_Jester]

Firstly, you're wrong about East Asian immigrants. They still make less on average than whites do, but this is usually invisible because their median educational level is higher.

I submit that this may be important.

Look, one of the fundamental problems that can arise when planning to "fix the inner cities" is to underestimate the scale of the problems they have. Or to ignore the fact that many of those problems interlock: that it is harder and more complicated to raise the median educational level among a group where boys condition each other to reject and despise education than among a group where they do not, for instance.

Where young white males condition each other to reject and despise education, they wind up ignorant, even though they are white, even though they aren't getting hit with racial discrimination, even though no one simply looks at them and thinks "he must be dumb and criminal so I will screw him over on his loan application" or whatever.

Why should it be a surprise when the same damn thing happens to young black males?

You cannot fix a problem if you refuse to admit to yourself what it is, hiding pieces of it from yourself for fear of what you'll find. In this case, "fixing the inner city" means, among other things, aggressively taking on that reflexive "I can't succeed, therefore success is for the weak and what really matters is my ability to swagger and posture to impress my fellow teenagers" meme. Because that's a truly stupid attitude to take regardless of whether the mind it infects is black or white.

[Bakustra]

Can anybody prove there is a causal link? All people are saying is "rap therefore conditioned to hate education!!!". I mean, what we have from the OP is a gap. People responded with "well maybe it's a culture of poverty, suck on deez nuts. :smug:" in the OP article. But that doesn't mean that they've proved anything. It could be the results of discrimination or other factors. So I want people to provide some evidence for a causal link between "black culture" and these results, because it seems odd to take that as a given.

Firstly, you're wrong about East Asian immigrants. They still make less on average than whites do, but this is usually invisible because their median educational level is higher.

I submit that this may be important.

Look, one of the fundamental problems that can arise when planning to "fix the inner cities" is to underestimate the scale of the problems they have. Or to ignore the fact that many of those problems interlock: that it is harder and more complicated to raise the median educational level among a group where boys condition each other to reject and despise education than among a group where they do not, for instance.

Where young white males condition each other to reject and despise education, they wind up ignorant, even though they are white, even though they aren't getting hit with racial discrimination, even though no one simply looks at them and thinks "he must be dumb and criminal so I will screw him over on his loan application" or whatever.

Why should it be a surprise when the same damn thing happens to young black males?

You cannot fix a problem if you refuse to admit to yourself what it is, hiding pieces of it from yourself for fear of what you'll find. In this case, "fixing the inner city" means, among other things, aggressively taking on that reflexive "I can't succeed, therefore success is for the weak and what really matters is my ability to swagger and posture to impress my fellow teenagers" meme. Because that's a truly stupid attitude to take regardless of whether the mind it infects is black or white.

You know something? I would say that the majority of people in my high school were not particularly enthusiastic about education. I would say that a significant number "rejected and despised" education, to at least some extent. But the majority graduated. A good number went on to college. So I think that you're going to have to show examples of this happening.

[Bakustra]

Broomstick, I am not going to respond seriously to somebody whose idea of honest discussion is "give me a detailed plan for fixing what's wrong with our cities or it must be 'black culture' that's creating the problems".

[Big Phil]

Broomstick, I am not going to respond seriously to somebody whose idea of honest discussion is "give me a detailed plan for fixing what's wrong with our cities or it must be 'black culture' that's creating the problems".

Then how about you tell everyone except Broomstick HOW you plan to "fix the inner cities." We'll make her cover her ears while you provide us with details.